DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Phil Savage v. John Collins

I think it might be useful to pull this body out of the coroner's office and do an autopsy on this power struggle from 2005.

I'm going to leave my biases to the side. The only thing I will say is that I have a real problem with how management is handling an array of current decisions and with the interplay with the media lately.

With that said......

Let's slide that cadaver out. The one with "John Collins" on the toe.

We'll start with his bio on Wikipedia

John Collins, (born November 27, 1961), was most recently the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Cleveland Browns football team until his resignation on January 3, 2006.

Growing up in the New York City area, Collins graduated from C.W. Post College, then worked in account management with DDB Needham Worldwide for six years.

From there, Collins spent the next 15 years in a variety of key business roles with the National Football League, beginning with NFL Films before becoming Senior Vice President of Marketing and Sales prior to his appointment with the Browns. He oversaw all the marketing, corporate sponsorship and advertising sales functions of the NFL and was a key member of the team that launched the NFL Network.

Collins received numerous honors during his tenure with the NFL. He was selected one of the top 20 sports advertising executives in 2004 by the Sports Business Journal and was selected by Advertising Age Magazine as one of America's top 50 marketers in 2003. However, his role in the Super Bowl XXXVIII halftime controversy, in which singer Janet Jackson's breast was exposed, caused many to see him as a scapegoat for the situation.

Collins was hired by the Browns in April 2004, succeeding the retiring Carmen Policy. In his first months on the job, Collins created controversy when he dismissed a number of Browns staffers, many of whom had been hired by Policy. Then, in November of that year, Browns' head coach Butch Davis resigned, necessitating a two-month search for his replacement.

Working with Lerner, Collins hired Phil Savage on January 6, 2005 as general manager, followed one month later by the addition of Romeo Crennel as head coach.

What seemingly was a smooth rebuilding situation exploded in controversy on December 30, 2005, with reports that Collins was about to fire Savage. Over the next three days, the uproar by the team's fans was enough to cause Collins to resign. He is now reportedly working for one of Browns' owner Randy Lerner's holding companies.

When Al Lerner passed in October 2002 he passed control of the franchise to his son Randy. Randy's first personal hire was John Collins in April of '04. It was reported at the time that the NFL League Office was instrumental in the hiring as well. Possibly as a hire to help Randy acclimate into the league with help by league employees.

After spending over a year with the organization and 11 months with Phil Savage as his GM, reports surfaced that Savage was on the verge of being fired. The speculation was based on Browns team president John Collins' reported personality conflict with Savage. Four days after the organizational rift became public, it was Collins who resigned his post after losing the power struggle with Savage.

Let's take a look at some of the articles.

Sources: Browns ready to fire GM Savage
ESPN.com news services

Updated: December 30, 2005, 9:58 PM ET

The Cleveland Browns plan to fire Senior VP and General Manager Phil Savage over "philosophical differences," primarily over salary-cap management issues, league sources tell ESPN's Chris Mortensen.

However, there are ongoing talks between Browns owner Randy Lerner, team president John Collins and Savage to try to reach a deal in which Savage would accept a reduced role and still keep a job with the team.

In that proposed new role, Savage would run the football personnel department, while an additional executive would be hired to manage the salary cap. Both would report to Collins.

Savage had resisted the proposed reduced role over the past several days, but there were talks late Friday afternoon to see if a compromise can be reached without Savage losing his job.

Cleveland cornerback Leigh Bodden signed a four-year contract extension on Friday. The 24-year-old defensive back has 52 tackles and three interceptions thus far in 2005.

Collins has denied that the team plans to fire Savage, including through a statement on the team's Web site that said Savage "is and will continue to be our senior vice president and general manager."

Late Friday, Collins told the Associated Press: "Phil's not going anywhere. He hasn't been fired, and he's not going to be fired. There is no reduction of responsibility. There is no rift."

Mortensen, however, has confirmed the team's plan with several sources, and stands by his report.

Savage joined the Browns as senior vice president and general manager on Jan. 6, 2005. Savage spent the last nine seasons with the Baltimore Ravens organization, including the last two (2003-04) as the Ravens' director of player personnel, and is known throughout the NFL as one of the league's top talent evaluators. Savage, a 14-year veteran of the NFL, worked directly with Baltimore general manager Ozzie Newsome to oversee both college and pro scouting. Savage was named the Ravens' player personnel director in 2003.

In addition to his responsibilities of scouting collegiate players around the country, Savage was involved in many of the day-to-day operations of the team and negotiated contracts of late-round draft picks. In his nine years with the Ravens organization, Savage saw the franchise earn a 72-71-1 regular-season record, including three post-season appearances with a 5-2 record, and the highlight -- winning Super Bowl XXXV over the N.Y. Giants in 2000 after a 12-4 record.

Ray Anderson, the Atlanta Falcons' chief administration officer, has been named as a possible candidate to replace Savage. Anderson has had no direct contact with the Browns, but league asources say there has been third-party contact to gauge his interest in the job.

The Browns also have had discussions with Mike Keenan about taking a position in their business operations.

As an aside...interestingly Mike Keenan is now the President of the Browns.

Here we see that John Collins approached Lerner and then approached Savage in an effort to wrest full control of the salary cap.

One conclusion from this would be that there was a personnel decision with cap implications that there was a disagreement on. Interestingly Leigh Bodden somehow got an extension in the eye of this storm. It is possible this was over the contract of Bodden.

From Fox Sports later that day:

Phil Savage out Ray Anderson in...Or Not?
Dec 30, 2005 | 3:37PM |

Just as I wrote yesterday that things were starting to look on the up and up being a Browns fan, I get hit by a HUGE curveball that Phil Savage is out as Browns GM. When I first heard this news I was floored and had no clue why he was fired. Savage is an excellent talent evaluator even from his days with the Ravens. Maybe Savage was unable to handle the other aspects of being a GM besides player personnel? Maybe there was a power struggle between John Collins and Phil Savage?

Reported by Chris Mortenson originally, i heard this earlier in the day and have decided to sit and think before writing this. With the time to think of this I have more questions, disgust and contempt for the organization. I do not understand why the organization can release this man after one season....one season of complete roster turnover and fixing Botch Davis' mess.

Thoughts of why this possibly could have happened......

-Phil Savage may not have been able to handle contract negotiations and managing the salary cap. He was overseen and work with Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore and was the director of player personnel. Maybe the Randy Lerner and/or John Collins, president of the Browns, suggested to Phil that he needed to delegate some of his power to new hires to run the organization smoother. Phil decided to buck that option wanting total control and went off oh his merry way, so in essence he was fired but also quit at the same time when his job description was to change.

-John Collins and Phil Savage have had differences ever since Collins thought he had first round pick Braylon Edwards inked to a deal and then found out otherwise. These tensions could have carried over and boiled over throughout the season and reached a breaking point today.

As reported by WTAM 1100 in Cleveland.....

Savage was brought in to delegate some of his power and others were to be brought in to help him in other areas where he wasn't expertised in. John Collins brought him to talk with him about this situation and Phil wouldn't budge on giving up any power to others, so Phil Savage is out as VP and GM. Former Falcons executive Ray Anderson is in to take his role although what aspects of the role is sketchy at this point.

Why this makes absolutely no sense....

Sure Phil Savage didn't have the background to handle full duties but wouldn't he know this as well? Wouldn't he ask for help in other areas so he could focus on what he was good at? And lets face it Phil is one of the best talent evaluators in football. His track record with the Ravens is proof of that.

Not too mention you don't go out and have front office people for one season and then just get rid of them. You need continuity from the top down in order to succeed in this league or succeed in anything. Firing Savage just brings another year of unknown and unpredictability to a franchise that has been in turmoil for the past 3 seasons. I as a Browns fan am ticked off by this lack of continuity and lack of the ownership showing it has any intention on winning.

Back to 1100 WTAMs reporting.....

John Collins, President of the Cleveland Browns, was just on the radio reporting that officially Phil Savage has not been fired and will not be fired. And he wasn't sure how all of this got blown out of proportion and that someone is being brought in to help Savage on the aspects he isn't in total control of.

WHAT?

If what John Collins is saying is true, how does Chris Mortenson get reports that Phil is fired? How is a replacement for him already mentioned? Where does this stuff come from? Mortenson generally is one of the top scoop getters in the NFL and generally doesn't publish things that are untrue and/or unfounded. So while what Collins says helps reassure me as a fan that things are on the up and up, I'm still sitting here wondering what the hell is going on? There has to be some truth to this story in order for it to get put out nationally. Mortenson wouldn't report off just a stupid rumor would he? I'm left here sitting in complete and total shock of everything I have heard today.

Now knowing all this is public knowledge, the team, the players, the organization and the fans of this once proud franchise is well aware that there is some tension and problems in the front office of the organzation. This also doesn't bode well from the top down. If Savage isn't fired things will have to be mended to fix the problems.

What Ifs?

If this story is true that Savage is out, why is Ray Anderson his replacement? He has no player personnel background and if you read his Bio at the Falcons homepage he sounds more like a lawyer. Who would be the player personnel developer?

If Anderson is his replacement how much shake up is down within the coaching ranks? Romeo hand picked his staff how would he react to the staff around him be changed? Will he stay or go himself?

Casey Coleman, a local Cleveland sportscaster, is one of the original local media personalities to bring this story out to light. He contended that according to his sources that Phil was out and Ray Anderson in. Now obviously most of you have no clue whom this person is but he is a respected member of the Cleveland media, I having lived there for 15 years of my life. If he is right, as he generally is with his reports. I'm almost completely fed up with this organization.

Conclusion.....sort of not really.

There is no conclusion to any of this. After hearing Collins I'm more confused than when I started writing this upset that Savage was gone. Savage is necessity in this organization not only for continuity sake but for his scouting and personnel moves.

Like I stated it's not like Mortenson reports any and all rumors he hears to the national public. So after all this leaking to the public, obviously it's going to come back to Phil at some point. Now in addition to worrying if he is fired, which God knows at this point if he is or isn't, does he resign in light of all this transpiring?

Not to mention Casey Colemans' local reporting of the said circumstance.

Today is not a fun day to be a Browns fan.

Interesting information here...especially the radio reports about Phil not willing to budge on giving up any power within the organization.

Once this information gets into the press a backlash ensues in the public. Browns fans are on their 3rd regime and 4th Head Coach. Before the year is out there is turmoil again. Browns fans are vociferous in their defense of Savage. A guy who is seen as a master talent evaluator....on a team currently devoid of such.

On January 3, 2006 Collins is out, Savage stays.

According to Pro Football Weekly

Jan. 3, 2006

In a surprising turn of events, Browns president and chief executive officer John Collins resigned Tuesday. The news comes after it appeared Collins was going to win a power struggle with general manager Phil Savage, with Savage either losing power or leaving the organization altogether. Owner Randy Lerner, in announcing Collins’ resignation, said that Savage and head coach Romeo Crennel would be staying in their current roles. Lerner will assume Collins’ responsibilities in the interim. “It is my expectation that the role of president will be filled, although there are no current candidates or time frame set to do so,” Lerner said. Collins could land a position with another of Lerner’s business interests, but the Browns’ owner did not indicate as much Tuesday.

Jan. 9, 2006

In the end, general manager Phil Savage won his power struggle with president John Collins. Collins resigned, and Savage kept his title. The way we hear it, head coach Romeo Crennel played a major role in convincing management not to fire Savage on Dec. 30, when reports swirled that Savage would be forced out. “I think that we have a good working relationship just like I have a good working relationship with everyone in the building,” Crennel said of Savage. The rumors of Savage’s demise blindsided Crennel like they stunned Browns fans, who were angered at the prospect of Savage being forced out after one season. Don’t underestimate the public’s role in Savage coming back from the brink. A Cleveland source says fans were angry that Collins wanted Savage to spend more time around Browns headquarters, when Savage’s strength is scouting. With the fans siding with Savage, Collins had lost the public-relations battle, and it became clear the two executives could no longer coexist.

Two years later Phil Savage was signed to an extension until 2011. Here is one look at his press conference in May 2008.

Per Cleveland Plain Dealer:

When a resolution to the conflict with Collins could not be reached over the weekend, owner Randy Lerner had to choose. To the utter surprise of some high-placed NFL executives - who knew Lerner's thinking a week earlier - Lerner did an about-face and chose to side with his football guy over his marketing guy.

Collins is now a marketing executive with the National Hockey League. Savage has turned around the Browns' fortunes to the point that the NFL has anointed them a team to contend for the Super Bowl this season.

"We send each other postcards all the time," Savage sarcastically joked about Collins.

On a serious note, Savage said of his first year on the job: "It was a tough time. You have a first-time GM, first-time head coach, a lot of firsts here. I think you live and learn. From a personal standpoint, it probably made me a little stronger."

Collins and Savage had almost an immediate personality clash, originating with Savage's insistence on contract language that guaranteed control over the roster and draft. They clashed over the contract negotiations of 2005 No. 1 pick Braylon Edwards. Eventually, Collins resented the time Savage spent on the road scouting players and his favored attire of baseball cap and sneakers.

Collins considered Savage a glorified scout, unprepared to perform the myriad duties of NFL general manager. He wanted to strip Savage of responsibilities written in his contract and hire another executive.

"It probably brought our group together both from a personnel and coaching standpoint," Savage said. "A lot of times when you survive something like that it makes you better. I know my relationship with Randy after [the first season] has been great. It has been what I hoped it would be from day one. It took 11 months to get it there but it's been fantastic the last 2½ years."

Lerner has maintained a friendship with Collins, while admitting he made a mistake in having his head football man report to a non-football executive.

Lerner never filled Collins' position as club president. He has allowed Savage to grow with the job and the result has been the team coming of age.

Now it's been another 6 months. The Browns are off to a 2-4 start.

What are your thoughts on this internal power struggle?

If John Collins had won the power struggle, I may have been done as a Browns fan.

I was that close...it would have showed me the team didn't care about winning.

John Collins was a Pencil pushing, advertizing, front office geek that probably didn't exactly know what a football was. He was in on the hiring of savage, giving him the freedom to do his job as he saw it and then in the first draft, put the kibosh on the signing of Edwards with his demands to market him as he saw fit.

And in the end, you have Jim Brown and Romeo Crennel stand in savages corner as the thing came to a head.

For my money, the right decision was made then and it remains the right decision...

That's JMO, but I'll stand by it 100%

for me, there is no need to analyze it at all.

I am one who stood up for Collins. Not so much to the extent of keeping him over Savage, but just didn't think the pencil pushing geek moniker wasn't exactly the truth. The guy is highly capable.

No doubt there was a rift between him and Phil....and to a large degree Lerners decision was at least somewhat PR based because his business mind seemed to side with Collins.

Another reason why I think Phil's fate rests a lot closer to Romeo's fate than do many others. It would only be a mild surprise if when Romeo is canned, Lerner makes a clean sweep and dumps Phil as well.

I think Lerner probably wanted Romeo out a couple of years ago, and was saved by Phil, just as Romeo helped Phil during the Collins episode, so now the two might be tied much closer together than many think.

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The guy is highly capable

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and to a large degree Lerners decision was at least somewhat PR based because his business mind seemed to side with Collins.

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I saw no evidence of those two things being true at all..

Sure you did....Savage was as good as gone until the backlash got strong....

I will say the same thing as I said then...I am glad Savage is the one to survive, but he isn't free of any blame. He was half of a working relationship that couldn't work together.

I doubt Phil was simply the innocent victim in all of that mess.

There is no internal power struggle. Collins is gone.

For cryin' out loud Held, Collins didn't like the way Savage wears a freakin ballcap with his sports jacket. Gimmie a break! Collins isn't even a football guy. He's an executive who wanted football power. Screw that, screw him and screw bringing this crap back up.

It's pointless.


The last two lines of your cut and pasted articles...

" Lerner has maintained a friendship with Collins, while admitting he made a mistake in having his head football man report to a non-football executive.

Lerner never filled Collins' position as club president. He has allowed Savage to grow with the job and the result has been the team coming of age.



Did you even read this stuff or are you that desparate to slam Savage?

What?!?

I'm not desperate to slam Savage. I'm bringing this back up because Savage has a history too.

I read it and put it out there. It was roundly hailed as the right thing to do. I didn't really know what to make of it but as decisions go I would prefer we keep the guy who knows football talent over the guy that knows marketing.....when the Browns are a sell out every single game.

But guess what. It didn't absolve the way it was handled and maybe just maybe we caught some colors coming out of the GMs office. He threatened to quit unless he had his way.

Somehow Chris Mortenson got his hands on the story. And the backlash from fans who are beyond tired for a winning team was hard....like it could be expected...wanting a football guy to stay. One that found all those talented Ravens.

It railroaded the process I'm sure. How did it get into Mortenson's hands? We'll never know. I do know who would benefit the most from it though. Phil Savage.

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I'm bringing this back up because Savage has a history too.

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And what point are you trying to make regarding that?

How does that particular history relate to anything that's going on now?

Well 95% of the people on this board are toeing the company line on the Winslow situation.

In three years we have had:

The Collins / Savage debacle
Mo Carthon hired fired
Todd Grantham hired fired
LeCharles Bentley almost have his leg amputated
*The BE suspension for his conduct detrimental and throwing Brian Russell under the bus
6 "Known" Staph Infections
The Winslow suspension

And a nice little 22-32 cherry on top.

The point I'm trying to make is that as good a talent evaluator as Phil Savage is he's just as bad as a GM. He comes off as a petulant child everytime he is questioned in the media. He's simply not a great leader.

When RAC is replaced my money is on a High Profile 8 figure type hire that will also serve as GM. Savage's days IMO are numbered.

*I can't seem to find that information online. Can somebody help me?

You guys do realize that just because Held disagrees with your POV doesn't make him wrong, don't you?

Just asking because I really get tired of reading posts ripping another poster because he seems to have brought up a relevant point that doesn't toe the company line.

I thought the idea of the Internet message board was to provoke thought. Not stifle it.

you'd be right Otto about stifling things .. the only problem is this has NOTHING to do with Collins v Opie .. just like KW's rant had nuttin to do about Staph ...

KW's rant was abut MONEY and his CONTRACT ..... thats all that was about ..

and now u have guys like Held and Peenie going off the deep end and thinking Opie did sumptin wrong and all held is doing here weather he wants to admit it or not is TAKING ANOTHER SHOT AT OPIE ...

this one is so easy to see its pathetic ... all this states is what Hel has been saying since KW got suspended .. OPIE IS A HORRIBLE LEADER .. and thats all this says ... Held's usually pretty good about hiding this stuff ... but this times its BLATANT what hes doing ..

as for the Opie v Collins "fight" ... its SimPLE ...

if u want a FOOTBALL MAN making FOOTBALL DECISIONS u made the right decision ..

if u want a BUsinESS mAN making football decisions u made the WRonG choice ...

is it really that diffucult to decipher?? I THinK nOt ..

PILE ON EVERYONE ..

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The Collins / Savage debacle
Mo Carthon hired fired
Todd Grantham hired fired
LeCharles Bentley almost have his leg amputated
*The BE suspension for his conduct detrimental and throwing Brian Russell under the bus
6 "Known" Staph Infections
The Winslow suspension

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If you REMOTELY think that Grantham, Carthon, and bacterial infections (including Bentley's) are Savage's fault, that's enough to completely reveal your assinine agenda.

On the other two notes, do you think that Savage should not suspend the two biggest loudmouths on our team? Should he have let Braylon keep spouting off his mouth in 2006? I mean, what he said about Brian Russell was COMPLETELY uncalled for.

I mean, I've seen some people at least try to make solid arguments, and others who just like to go against the grain (Peen ), but the reasons you provided above are very unintelligible when it comes to arguing that Savage is doing a bad job.

It wouldn't have felt right if you didn't roll over me with that truck and back up once for good measure. I thank you kind sir.

How long was BE suspended?

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Sure you did....Savage was as good as gone until the backlash got strong....

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That's news to me?

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The point I'm trying to make is that as good a talent evaluator as Phil Savage is he's just as bad as a GM.

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And not making much of a point in your efforts.

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He comes off as a petulant child everytime he is questioned in the media. He's simply not a great leader.

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Talk about your petulant child types. Look in the mirror.


You've been banging Savage all over the board and that list you just gave means what?



*The Collins / Savage debacle : Collins was the instigator and ass in that "debacle". Funny, when I asked why you dug this back up you claimed no real agenda regarding it. Yet here you use it as your first point in why Savage is lacking in leadership skills. You need to be more consistant.

* Mo Carthon hired fired : Unheard of. Virtualy unheard of that a new regime brings in a coach, (from not much to choose from since the head coach came in so late after his Superbowl win), and he gets replaced by an OC that managed the offense rather well.

* Todd Grantham hired fired : See above. It happens every season all over the NFL.

* LeCharles Bentley almost have his leg amputated : And THIS is Savage's fault? How? btw... shouldn't this have been part of your "6 Known Staph Infections" point or did it seem better on it's own here making it look like you had more points?

* The BE suspension for his conduct detrimental and throwing Brian Russell under the bus : Was BE suspended? And part of the reason was for throwing Brian Russell under the bus? If you are trying to infer that what BE did was as bad as what K2 did and should have been suspended as well, then this is just another bone of contention you have that is way off-base. BE made mistakes. Kellen made vicious accusations against the entire organization saying they don't care about nor try hard enough to protect the health of the players.

* 6 "Known" Staph Infections : And one known, (JJ), not to have come from Cleveland. Peyton Manning contracted Staph. Tom Brady contacted Staph after his knee surgury. There are Staph infections running rampant and occuring all over the world of sports including the NFL. Are all those Savage's fault too?

* The Winslow suspension : It was the right thing to do. It was discussed by Lerner, Savage and RAC and was a consensus decision. Savage is not on an island here. K2 publicly crapped on the organization, (not just on Phil alone), with his comments. His teammates obviously didn't agree with him as they rolled their eyes at his comments and Jamal Lewis coaxed him away from the interview. If you wanted to allow players to do that in your organization go for it. I'm glad my team will not stand still for it.

So far, nothing you've used as "proof" to this point has any real punch to it. You have been like a one man tribe of head-hunters trying to prey on Phil Savage. Give it up while you're still only in the stages of being comical because it's not that much farther for you to enter the realm of the totally freakin absurd.

Good Lord.....the only thing that is absurd is your constant, unbending, blind loyalty to the Browns FO and staff.

You may not agree with Held's or Rish's or Peen's or my points but that does not make them absurd. Or even remotely up for ridicule.

The fact of the matter is that Opie has a holier than thou attitude and always has. I'd be willing to bet that is what led to the dustup with Collins and Lerner in the first place. Guess we'll have to wait for coachb to confirm that one.

At any rate, now that same attitude has led him to flex his muscles to show one of the best players on the Browns "just who's the boss". Gosh, where football matters are concerned I thought that was RAC. Guess not.

Let's face it, while PS has definitely done some good things with the team he's hardly the saint that most portray him to be. His constant defense of his pick at QB could very well lead to his downfall. I mean, really, is there anyone at this point that thinks Derek Anderson is anything but a young version of Tim Couch. Good one day, bad the next three. Yet, all we hear is that the FO has a plan, we're just not smart enough to see it. Ya know what I see? A team with a first round pick at QB that's probably gonna lose 10 games before said QB sees the field, if at all. Yeah, that's a plan.

I know I'm not as smart as you or diam or any of the veteran posters on here. But I know when something stinks. And the odor from Berea is becoming a little more than I can take.

Here's hoping it subsides and that I am wrong. But at this point I just don't see that.

crazy, (and I mean that ), it's not about disagreeing with someone's take on an issue. It's about an obvious witch hunt that is snowballing into ridiculous proportions.

We have a thread about money under the cap that maybe could have been spent to improve the team. Savage hasn't spent it. Is anyone bothered by that?

We have a thread about the Collins ordeal that was over a long, long time ago. It was investigated by the media and solved to show that it was Collins who was the problem with his backstabbing ways who was simply hungry for more power in the day to day football operations while not being a football man in the loosest definition. But it was revisited here in an attempt to see if it could bring up any dirt on Savage claiming that he has a history. Hell, everyone has a history. But all Savage did in that debacle was get attacked by a slick executive type who damn near convinced Lerner as well.

We have a poster who has not missed many chances in threads the board over to make anti-Savage posts, some out of context, which is putting the bullseye directly on the aganda he carries. Oh, that would be Heldawg, the origninator of this marvelous, informative thread.

I've never claimed Savage to be a saint. He's done some very good things with this team and has also made some mistakes. That's pretty much the way with everyone. There are things to discuss and agree or disagree with and all that is fine and what this board is for. But when the issues have to be stretched so incredibly thin just to try to make a point; the point is pointless. The eveidence is so weightless it can be blown away by the tiny puff of air from a butterfly's wings. It reeks of an agenda from the source of primarily one uninformed person and he's trying to infect the entire board with his nonsense.

If you notice, there's not a whole lot of people signing up.

I'll not stand by without weighing in with my opinion if for no other reason than to help protect the innocent from being coerced into buying into the crap that's being spewed.

I said a few days ago that I was officially off the Phil Savage bandwagon once KW2 asserted that the FO told him to cover up the fact that he contracted staph.

That's something that's beyond the pale.

I thought it deserved further inspection and also thought that the almighty, holy and omniscient Phil Savage might be deserving of a little inspection as well.

Now.......

It's been proven that they did try to cover it up. Suspension lifted. End of story.

We'll see where this goes next but it doesn't exactly make me look like I have mud on my face.

I hope all fans of the Browns push the reset button on the Front Office and look at them in a fresh light. And make your own minds up.

Text Messages Back Winslow, Prompt Browns to End Suspension

by Mary Kay Cabot
Sunday October 26, 2008, 12:24 AM

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Kellen Winslow's suspension was rescinded by the Browns Saturday after club officials received copies of text messages from a Browns public relations employee telling Winslow not to reveal that he had a staph infection, a source close to the situation told the Plain Dealer.
Winslow will still be fined $25,000 for comments about the Browns not protecting its players enough from staph, but will not forfeit the entire $235,294 game check for sitting out Sunday's game in Jacksonville.

He also stood to lose another $1 million based on the terms of his restructured contract, which stipulated he would lose that amount in the event he engaged in conduct detrimental to the team. Winslow also will not have to apologize to the team, his attorney, Adam Kaiser, retained by the NFL Players Association, said.

In a statement attributed to no one, the Browns said, "The Cleveland Browns are pleased to have this matter behind us. We have worked through our differences and look forward to having Kellen return."


Winslow will still not play today in Jacksonville, in part because he traveled back home to San Diego on Thursday after he had been banished from practice and team meetings until Monday. Winslow had also been told by the team that even if he had won the appeal before Sunday, he would not have been active.

Winslow said in a statement:

"This past week has been trying for all parties involved," Winslow said in a written statement. "As you know, I contracted staph for the second time in my career and was hospitalized for four days. I spoke out on this because I felt it was the right thing to do. This had nothing to do with football. This was and remains a serious health concern.

"I do realize that I am a public person and my words, whether constructively articulated or expressed emotionally, carry a lot of weight in the public arena. My intentions were never meant to be disruptive or distracting to the Browns organization, but rather to voice my concerns about my medical condition. I am confident that the Browns organization has taken the necessary steps to make our facility a healthy working environment.

"I formally reiterate my respect for the Browns organization, my teammates and the city of Cleveland. I look forward to getting back to playing football and being a productive member of this team. It's now time to focus on winning."


Tony Dejak/AP file photo
Browns General Manager Phil Savage did not directly address on Saturday night the text messages which told Kellen Winslow not to address his staph infection, but said the team was "ready to move forward."Winslow's arbitration hearing was scheduled for Tuesday, but the two sides reached agreement Saturday after his representatives sent copies of the text messages to higher-ups in the Browns organization, who apparently were not aware of them, according to the source.
Sometime Saturday, Browns owner Randy Lerner called Winslow to express his regret about how it unfolded. The text messages urged Winslow not to reveal his staph infection and said General Manager Phil Savage would get involved if he did. Winslow was also told in the texts that revealing staph would touch off a firestorm.

A message to Browns spokesman Bill Bonsiewicz was not immediately returned Saturday night.

Savage, asked if he knew of the PR's staffers texts, replied in a text, "We have settled and are ready to move forward. In 3-plus years, the medical staff has always informed me of a player's wishes in terms of maintaining confidentiality or releasing his records."

Winslow, weary of rumors about his condition, planned to make a statement while he was still in the Cleveland Clinic being treated for the staph. But he and his representatives held off because of pressure from the public relations staff, the source said.

Winslow's infection was the sixth by a Browns player since 2005, and the second for Winslow. Therefore, when Winslow spoke to reporters in the locker room the Friday before the Redskins game, he backed down from his intent to again reveal the infection. At the time, Winslow assumed the texts were a directive from the front office.

During the interview, he started by saying it was the Browns' decision to keep the illness private -- and then curiously added that he agreed with it.

When he tried to answer more questions that day, he was cut off by a member of the public relations staff. Winslow hinted during that interview that his undisclosed illness was similar what he had been through before, meaning the post-surgical staph infection in 2005 that caused him to lose almost 30 pounds and was career-threatening.

Assuming that Savage was on board with forbidding him to talk, Winslow confronted him in the hallway after the Redskins game outside the locker room while still in full uniform and expressed his dismay about how the staph was handled and that Savage never called him while he was in the hospital.

Winslow told his reps he was prepared to go through with the hearing to clear his name, even if it meant losing more than $1.2 million, because he felt he did nothing wrong, the source said.

As part of the settlement, Winslow will never be prevented from making public statements about his health or the working and safety conditions at the Browns facility, Kaiser said.

Said NFLPA Executive Director Richard Berthelsen: "We are obviously pleased that we were able to negotiate a favorable settlement with the Browns on this important issue. Employees have a legal right to speak out on matters impacting their working conditions, and in our view that was the core issue in this case.

"The settlement serves as a message to all players that their rights are being protected by their union, and hopefully it also serves as a message to the clubs that these rights are to be respected."

*btw.....

BE was never suspended.

Day after, Browns' Edwards says 'I shouldn't have blew up'

Nov. 27, 2006
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports

BEREA, Ohio -- Braylon Edwards walked into Cleveland's locker room nattily dressed in a dark, pinstriped sports coat instead of the usual sweats and sneakers he would normally wear the day after a game.

He looked and acted cool Monday.

On Sunday, he was anything but.

An embarrassed Edwards blamed "my passion for the game" for his showy sideline tantrum during the third quarter of Cleveland's 30-0 loss to the Cincinnati Bengals, a Terrell Owens-like display for the cocky second-year wide receiver.

Following an interception by Browns quarterback Charlie Frye, an enraged Edwards lost his composure after leaving the field. He exchanged words with Frye and even grabbed the QB's jersey as other teammates tried to settle him down as he angrily stormed around.

Edwards, who didn't speak to the media following the game, never directly apologized for his actions but he clearly regretted what happened.

"I don't feel like I embarrassed my teammates," he said. "I embarrassed myself to some extent. That's not my character. That's not me. Nobody knows me as that type of guy. I've always been the clean cut, quiet, well-spoken guy, so that wasn't me. I embarrassed myself a little bit and I feel I embarrassed this organization to some extent.

"I wish I could do it back, but I can't."

Browns coach Romeo Crennel said any discipline against Edwards would be handled internally. His options would be to suspend, fine or bench the former first-round pick. Or, Crennel may choose to do nothing.

"We are going to talk to Braylon and we are going to determine how we'll deal with it," Crennel said. "We are going to keep it in-house. It's family business and I'm not going to put it in the press."

Even before his rant on Sunday, Edwards was already on thin ice with Crennel. Last week, Edwards criticized Cleveland's conservative offensive play calling and then questioned teammate Brian Russell's hard hit on Bengals wide receiver Chad Johnson earlier this season.

Edwards insisted that Sunday's blowup had nothing to with Frye, who threw four interceptions in the loss.

"The emotions that I showed was not related towards Charlie Frye at all," he said. "I grabbed his jersey in reference to something else but as Romeo says, we'll keep that in house. I wasn't mad about something Charlie did."

Edwards, who had just two receptions for 29 yards, doesn't believe he should be disciplined for his outburst.

"All I did was show I cared about the game," he said. "All I did was show my passion for the game. It's not like I fought anybody. It's not like I gave the bird to somebody in the stands or anything like that. I was just showing passion about the game."

Maybe so, but Edwards' public display of frustration couldn't have come at a worse time for the Browns (3-8), who before being shut out by the NFL's lowest-ranked defense were showing some signs of progress in Crennel's second year.

However, the Browns were overwhelmed by the Bengals, and the lopsided loss was made worse by Edwards' tirade, which Crennel called an isolated incident and not one indicative of an undisciplined team.

"You are talking about one or two guys," Crennel said. "If you had 45 guys out of control, you could say that. We have one guy (Edwards) who is fiery and competitive. He is trying to make a point. Was it the right way to get the point across? No, it wasn't. That's part of the education process that we'll have to use to get him right. During the game, it's not time to approach teammates in a confrontational matter."

Crennel may need to punish Edwards at some level or risk losing his team. If he doesn't discipline Edwards, it could show that Crennel isn't tough enough. If he does sit Edwards, it could backfire as bing too heavy handed.

"I'll do what's best for the team," he said.

Edwards acknowledged that he was wrong in airing his beliefs for the world to see. Next time he's upset, he promises to handle the situation differently.

"I shouldn't have blew up at all," he said. "I should have just waited until the game was over with and talked to whoever I had to talk to. That's the way I should have handled it. I shouldn't have let the media see me on the sidelines. I shouldn't have exploded like I did."

And while Edwards displayed sincerity and remorsefulness over Sunday's incident, he also took a swipe at some of his teammates for not sharing his desire to win.

"As a whole, I think we need to show more passion," he said. "I don't believe I'm throwing anybody under the bus by saying that. If you lose 30 to zip, obviously you're not showing passion. So I believe with five games left, we need to show passion. If we lose the rest of our games but we show passion and give everything we got, that's all you can expect from anybody.

"And if that's not enough, then it's not enough."

Phil Collins > John Savage

Quote:

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Kellen Winslow's suspension was rescinded by the Browns Saturday after club officials received copies of text messages from a Browns public relations employee telling Winslow not to reveal that he had a staph infection, a source close to the situation told the Plain Dealer.

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I'll say this about that; it's obvious Savage knew nothing about the text messages or he would never have suspended Winslow and spoke so passionately about it. That is, unless he doesn't realize that text messages are stored on both phones, and I doubt he's that ignorant of that fact since he uses his daily.

Did he act without an in depth investigation? I guess he did. So that could be construed as bad leadership if you wish to call it that. I don't. During his investigation, who would think to ask anyone in the organization if they had texted K2 asking him not to reveal the staph? If you don't expect it to be a possibility of something that could have happened, then you don't go looking for that.

I do believe, and have since the beginning when this became an issue, that the Browns may have initiated the down low on the Staph. Both Winslow and his agent agreed with the Browns that it's best if it's kept out of the public knowledge. HIPPA does come into play, but it does look like there was an agreement there. It has all along.

But I'll maintain that Winslow's method of devulging that info was a vicious attack on the organizaton and reneging on the agreement publicly. He very well could have had a meeting with the FO and stated his wish to bring it into the open. It would be his right to do so.

He spoke with Savage going into the locker room after the game, which was a polite and respectful conversation, and that ended with a "lets talk about this further when we get home" kinda finish. They shook hands to end the conversation. Then K2 walks right into the locker room and rips the organization.

That was dead wrong and would have held if not for the revealing of the text messages that could not have been known by the organization unless the sender came clean.

The media will further investigate this as they are the blood suckers who can't let a good story die so I'm sure there will be more information coming forth in the days and perhaps weeks ahead. For example, we still don't know what sort of injury exposed K2 to the infection in the first place. It takes a break in the skin for Staph to infect. Was that injury from a practice or a game what wasn't properly cleaned by the trainers. or even Winslow himself? Or could that have been something that happened off the field and even with the training and education provided by the team on how to use preventive measures against staph, Winslow neglected to perform?

Staph is known to be everywhere. You can't blame the organization unless they are neglectful in taking preventive measures and it's well known that they are not. They have been extremely pro-active in battling this problem.

The Browns have had six players with staph infections since 2005. Is anyone sure that each of those was contracted in Berea? Did none of those occur in the hospital following surgury? If so, how do the Browns and specifically Phil Savage get blamed for it?

It's been reported JJ's did not come from the team complex rather from his own home area while rehabbing.

"Infection-control officials from the Clinic visited the Browns' facility in October 2005 and July 2006 for basic prevention purposes. The Browns also had their facility treated last year with a special anti-staph agent and are vigilant about taking precautions.

One source said that because Jurevicius contracted the infection a full two weeks after the surgery, he could've picked it up anywhere."
Cleveland.com

"Jurevicius underwent surgery at Cleveland Clinic. Hospital spokeswoman Eileen Sheil said the staph infection didn't occur until later.

"The onset was two weeks after his surgery while he was traveling on the West Coast," Sheil said. "We don't believe it was related to the surgery."
Seattle Times.com


Finally, this from the New York Times: "A survey by the NFL Team Physicians Society found 13 teams said a player had contracted a (staph) infection in recent years, for a total of 60 infections across the league. Andrew Tucker, the president of the society and the head team physician for the Baltimore Ravens, said teams had access to information about staph infections through an internal injury reporting database, but the NFL declined to release the data. ... Several news media reports noted that the Browns have had six cases of staph infections since 2005. (Tucker) said the frequency of staph infections among Browns players -- spread over so many years -- did not appear to be out of the ordinary. "You're talking about one or two per year," Tucker said. "That's not a lot."

What bothered the Browns most about Winslow's remarks was not revealing the staph infection, but implying the team didn't care or want to prevent it.
Terry Pluto 10.25.08

And that last comment is where Winslow was dead wrong and slanderous in the things he said and despicable in the backstabbing method in which he presented it. That was worthy of the suspension in itself.

Will I admit that you had a point in this particular instance?

Without you knowing a damn thing about it and commenting only through your emotions about our best player being suspended by a consensus of Lerner, Savage and others I'll have to say yes anyway.

But it reminds me of the woman who played a parlay based soley on choosing the winners by the colors of their uniforms that she liked best. She won the parlay even though she had no idea what the hell she was talking about.

So, until further review, I'll give you a partial on this one even though Lerner was in on the discussion regarding the suspension in the first place yet you laid all the blame on Savage anyway.

Now, go back and defend the rest of your list of points that "prove" Savage is a bad GM who lacks leadership. Contrary to what you probably think this does not establish and credibility with your other points.

Quote:

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KW's rant was abut MONEY and his CONTRACT ..... thats all that was about ..

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Cleveland Browns tight end Kellen Winslow's frustrations about money, contract, Terry Pluto says

Posted by Terry Pluto October 20, 2008 10:34AM


I don't know the exact nature of Kellen Winslow's medical condition, other than he said it was a staph infection -- somewhere.

How severe? Where? And how did he catch it? Very few people know, and no one is answering those questions.


I do know that Winslow was right when he said "this is bigger than the game," about his emotions following the Browns 14-11 loss at Washington on Sunday.

It's not about General Manager Phil Savage failing to call Winslow during his three-day hospital stay. Nor is it all about the staph infection, although that is scary and frustrating, assuming Winslow's explanation of his situation is correct.

I do know that it's really about money.

Winslow has wanted a new contract since last spring, when Dallas Clark signed a six-year, $42 million deal with Indianapolis. The tight end was guaranteed $27 million over the first three seasons.

The Browns' tight end looked at that deal and thought, "I'm a better player than Clark." He thought about how he made the Pro Bowl, Clark did not. He thought about how he caught 82 passes, Clark caught 58.

He thought about how his body has been taking a beating, at least three knee operations and other problems. He thought about holding out, and he thought about how he would be "underpaid" this season at about $4 million. He thought about how he made only $2 million annually in 2006 and 2007, when he caught 171 passes over those two seasons.

The more he thought about all that, the more he felt like a victim. He hired Drew Rosenhaus as his new agent, and thought about holding out this season.

Right before the NFL trading deadline, Winslow thought about asking to be sent to another team -- as the tight end admitted on Sunday. He has decided that he's underpaid, a "piece of meat," as he called his status with the Browns on Sunday.

Like many players in the middle of a contract dispute with his team, Winslow's thinking has been very selective.

What he doesn't think about is how he was paid $11.6 million in his first two seasons, when he played a grand total of two games.

As a rookie, he broke his leg in the second game of the 2004 season trying to recover an onside kick at Dallas. If anyone is to blame for that, it was former Browns coach Butch Davis who had his top draft pick and starting tight end on the field with his kickoff team, something not often done.

But before he was fully recovered from the broken leg, Winslow had that frightening motorcycle accident where he was doing "wheelies" in the parking lot. He suffered a major knee injury and other physical problems. Because motorcycle riding violated a clause in his contract, the Browns could have failed to pay him a $4.4 million roster bonus in 2005.

They gave him the money while he recovered from the motorcycle accident. They worked out a new deal for him that ran through 2010 -- while he was still hurt and no one knew how strong (or even if) he could come back. The team and Savage did not take advantage of this situation, no matter what Winslow thinks of it.

When Winslow gets upset about Clark hitting it rich with the Colts, he forgets Clark was an unrestricted free agent -- while Winslow has two years left on his contract. Winslow is upset the Browns won't give him a new deal early, the Browns believing that they'd like him to play the 2008 season (and stay healthy) before making another long term investment.

Heading into this season, the Browns have paid Winslow $15.6 million over four years. It will be more than $20 million after 2009. If he is underpaid, it's because his own motorcycle accident cost him valuable time and contract leverage.

Yes, the staph infection issue with the Browns doesn't seem to go away. But I'd like more details on this before rushing to judgment about the team or Cleveland Clinic, which supplies medical care for the Browns. Yes, Savage should have called Winslow to check on him. Yes, it is understandable for Winslow to be upset.

But the real issue is Winslow's contract. That's why he wanted to be traded, and why he lashed out at the team Sunday.

Terry Pluto - Plain Dealer

Quote:

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Will I admit that you had a point in this particular instance?

Without you knowing a damn thing about it and commenting only through your emotions ....

I'll have to say yes anyway.....

But it reminds me of the woman who played a parlay based soley on choosing the winners by the colors of their uniforms that she liked best.

She won the parlay even though she had no idea what the hell she was talking about.

So, until further review, I'll give you a partial on this one.

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So......let me get this straight.

1. I don't know a damn thing about it.
2. I was only commenting through emotions.
3. I'm like a woman who bets a parlay based on pretty colors.
4. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about
5. I get a partial credit from you.

Well then. I takes a man to admit when he's wrong. Looks like ya did ya best!

I've never seen such a foolish post, especially from a poster I used to respect.

I'll answer your other points later.

Let's change this to Phil Collins vs. John Savage.


Su-su-sudio!

Just out of inane curiosity, what was/is "sudio"? I remember the song, but wth?

Heldawg, are you that bored or do you just like to knit pick? This is a disturbing thread because hindsight is 20/20 and had Savaged been fired it would have been a huge mistake. You did very good at discussing Savages short comings, you know the staph infections, firing Carthon and Grantham. Have you seen the good he has done?

*Have you noticed that there is excessive cap space every off season?
*Have you seen that through a tough schedule and injuries they are at 3-4?
*You do realize that he started with scraps? I Know I know that just doesn't *support your ridiculous comparison.
*When was the last time you saw this much talent on a Browns team?
*Building a consistent winner takes time, Years, and we are on the verge. They handed the Giants their only loss and beat a pretty good Jacksonville team. Tell the last Browns team that could pull that off?

I could go on and on. If you understand football at all then you would see the progress made with Savage and understand we need to keep him and stay consistent with front office peronel. Gosh you act like the guy is Matt Millen. this is a thread that seems to have been created just so you could start a thread. Ridiculous. Savage is our man and should be! No that cannot be argued.

No Heldawgs POV is not wrong? Are you kidding me?! It's wrong in every way, PERIOD.

Maybe Diam woulnd't run you over if you didn't come in here with your non-sense. I can't get over your lame thread. Diam nailed you on everything. You back nothing up. You know like the staph being savages fault?

Thank you for the arrows. I will take them from my back to my quiver.