DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Indecision on QBs will haunt Browns for years (article)

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I never said there weren't any questions about his accuracy from a FEW PUNDITS ... I did say U were LYING about why he fell .... thats TWO SEPERATE ISSUES ...

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And I can state for a FACT that there are questions about his accuracy, and I maintain those issues helped him fall.

You want to point at the Fish screwin' up and passin' on him (which was a mistake at the time) as well as the fact that fewer teams were in a position of need to take a QB. I GET THAT, AND I GOT IT THEN.

BUT....

If Quinn didn't have questions of one type or another, some team would have traded up before we did to get him.

SO, you calling me a liar is weak, and you can't prove otherwise, while I can. So don't get all uppity *L*

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Personally I have no clue where the accuraccy CRAP comes from ......U want to agree with the pundits .. GO AHEAD ... me .. I'll believe my eyes and what I saw over 4 years ....

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Finally.......something that's honest, even if we differ on the opinion.

I saw some games where I thought he'd lost the strike zone on throws he should be making. We BOTH saw him get bailed out by Winslow on a couple of short throws last week, and we both saw him throw a dirt-ball to Wright on that last drive. That DOESN'T mean he's innacurate. I can easily attribute that to his first NFL game, and his first attempt at NFL crunch-time. Afterall, that's the very reason I didn't want him to start the game to begin with, which means I can accept such a thing if it happens. Having said that, it's going to take time to prove or disprove those questions.

You say he's going to be very accurate and that you don't believe the questions. GREAT! You're not an idiot, so I tend to put more stock in what you see than I do most others. (I'm going in to potentially fire someone today for HR reasons and am in a pissy mood, so that's as much of a compliment as I can muster right now ) Regardless, I've seen some things that make me take a "wait-and-see" attitude regarding his intermediate and beyond accuracy. I'd rather that all the info I've seen tells me those questions aren't legit, but that doesn't change the fact that they exist.

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If Quinn didn't have questions of one type or another, some team would have traded up before we did to get him.

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? After Miami, what "other team" needed a QB? And how do you know that other teams that picked below us didn't try to trade up? It could very well be they just weren't willing to pony up to the price we were willing to pay.

Maybe they had a lower draft pick than we did and Jerry Jones wanted to get "the most he could" for his pick? That would make a lot of sense wouldn't it?

I'm not trying to belittle you, but the above quote you made is nothing more than conjecture and speculation on your part. Nice try though.

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SO, you calling me a liar is weak, and you can't prove otherwise, while I can. So don't get all uppity *L*

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What have you proven? That Scouts Inc. had questions? Can you show me ANY scouting report anywhere that does not list questions about EVERY player? And just how accurate do they pan out to be? What record of success or accuracy do the pundits have?

You're basing much of this on assumptions, not facts.

You have NO way of knowing who was trying to move up to get Quinn or who wasn't. If we were the only one's, or just the one who made the best offer.

Speculation and proof are two seperate things in case you were confused about that.

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We BOTH saw him get bailed out by Winslow on a couple of short throws last week, and we both saw him throw a dirt-ball to Wright on that last drive. That DOESN'T mean he's innacurate.

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I can easily attribute that to his first NFL game, and his first attempt at NFL crunch-time.

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toad, how do you measure inaccuracy? I mean aside from what you just see and "feel"? Like the scout saying he makes his receivers work too hard to catch the ball.... As I see it, there are 2 ways to measure inaccuracy, completion percentage and INTs because those are the two outcomes that will plague an inaccurate passer...

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That's a very interesting question, and a good one.

Comp percentage is a good start, but it's not the be-all to accuracy. In fact, it can often be very deceiving.

The example I'm going to use is Charlie Frye. (I'd use Tim Couch, but we don't want to go there ). He came out of college as a supposedly accurate QB. Right? Many people (and I hope you aren't one of'em because it's not my intent to embarass anyone) pointed to the following stats as PROOF he was an accurate QB coming out:

Akron completion percentage stats for years 2001 through 2004:

58.8
65.8
64.8
63.6

Man, those looked good, right? But here's a compilation of scouting reports coming out college:

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Frye is a complete quarterback prospect. He’s tall, has a solid arm, and is athletic. He is a pocket passer who shows the ability to get the ball down the field, but he has surprising athleticism to elude the rush and make plays with his feet. He is tough, will stay in the pocket and take a hit, and will play injured. Off the field, Frye is a dean’s list student and is an active member in community service projects.


Frye is solid all around, but he does have some things to work on. He gets a little erratic on the field, forcing some throws and getting a bit off the mark at times.
(Footballfutures.com)

Nice-sized passer and a natural, smart leader. Sets up in the pocket with good footwork, remains poised and goes through receiver progressions, buying time for wideouts. Senses the rush, scrambles to elude defenders and tosses to the safe underneath route if nothing is available downfield. Displays good field awareness and very good at finding the open wideout. Throws with an over-the-top delivery displaying zip on the short throws and the ability to quickly get the ball into the intended targets hands. Nicely times the outs, places long throws well and tosses the ball away if nothing is available. Tough competitor who plays while injured.

NEGATIVES: Steps out of throws on occasion, which adversely affects his accuracy. Possesses a solid arm, yet does not have the gun to drive deep throws.
(CNNSI.com)

Here's a breakdown of his accuracy from ESPN:


QB SPECIFICS


Arm Strength C Arm strength is decent but not nearly as good as it seems versus slower competition on film.

Escape Ability B Good athlete with quick feet. Buys a lot of second-chance passing opportunities.

Quick Set Up B- Gets set up quickly with a deep drop. Must get rid of the ball quicker with better reads.

Accuracy Long C Shows some touch on deep ball but timing is inconsistent.

Accuracy Short B- Is more consistent underneath. Throws a "catchable" ball to backs on "wheel" routes.

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There's more, but you get the picture.

Fast forward to today.

Charlie Frye is clearly NOT an accurate passer. We all know it by now, even the ones that didn't want to accept it while it was happening. Even when he completed 64% of his passes in 2006, he clearly wasn't known as an accurate QB. Unfortunately, people used his comp percentage as "proof" of it, but that was bogus.

When push came to shove, Frye was an innacurate QB despite high comp percentages throughout his college and NFL career.

Ok, moving on. You ALSO used INT's as a barometer of accuracy. That's also a good starting point. The obvious problem is that decision making plays a big role when it comes to INT's. Many of Anderson's INT's didn't come from a lack of accuracy, but rather from lack of solid decision making. I think everyone knows that about Anderson.

So while those two barometers play a role in determining true accuracy, there's still more to the equation.

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Over his final 2 years of college, Quinn had a better completion percentage, more TDs and fewer INTs than did Peyton Manning at UT... and his ypa was within a yard so it's not like Manning was throwing all deep balls and Quinn was dinking and dunking (a term I'm growing to hate)...

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The problem with that thinking is it doesn't take a slew of factors into account. Such things include offensive systems. The yards-per-attempt stat doesn't tell us if Manning was asked to throw shorter routes in the same range as Quinn (it's also a VERY subjective stat, BTW) which in turn doesn't tell us whether or not he's more accurate or less accurate than Quinn once you get past that area of the field Were those passes down the middle or to the sideline? Were those passes in a wide-open system or a controlled one? Then there's the competition. Quinn clearly didn't play the level of competition that Manning did. Notre Dame doesn't play the tough teams that the SEC's Vols did. These aren't questions designed to make Quinn look less than Manning, but are rather factors which aren't explained in the YPA stat.

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So I'm not saying he is or isn't accurate, I'm just wondering where the scouts come up with this opinion....

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They watch every single game and nearly every single play, at least the GOOD scouts do. Many of the supposed "scouting reports" are simply parroted from bigger sites, which is something that sickens me. That's why I trust the bigger sites over smaller ones, and put more stock in Scouts and ESPN than I do others. Keep in mind that was the kind of work I did for a few years. The info I sent back to Vegas was often ripped off by internet punks who then in turn used that information as their own. So we have to be careful where we gather the info from.

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By the way, yes those are the 2 stat lines above, one is Quinns jr/sr year at ND, the other is Mannings jr/sr year at UT... Quinns is better almost across the board... so what is it that the scouts see that is not reflected in the stats?

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Great question We all know that stats are important, but we also know they don't tell the entire story. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, which is where the SCIENCE of INTERPRETATION and EVALUATION come into play. B will tell you the exact same thing (or if he doesn't he's a fraud and a liar ). The stats can say Quinn is a better prospect than manning, but those who REALLY know what they are looking at (like me ) look beyond the stats. I knew guys like Couch and Frye weren't accurate despite their balogny numbers.

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so what is it that the scouts see that is not reflected in the stats?

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Everything The stats are a good place to start, but they don't tell all the story.

I can go back through the archives and pull up the stats for guys like David Klingler, Andre Ware, Ty Detmer, Tim Rattay, and Tim Couch, and show you eye-poppin' numbers. Obviously, those numbers don't tell the story.

Here's an example.

Back when I was still doing this kind of work, my job was to watch tapes and evaluate. I'm not sitting here saying I traveled the country watching these kids play. I would have loved to do it, but that wasn't in the cards for how I lived my life, though I did make trips down to places like Houston for college players as well as to do stuff on the Oilers. So in 1994, after watching a bunch of tape, in my report back to Vegas I stated that I didn't believe there were any 1st round QB's in that draft. After it unfolded, Heath Shuler and Trent Dilfer both went in the 1st round. Today, we know that neither guy was really a 1st round prospect, but were developmental QB's. Their stats told me one story. Their tapes told me another.

Now I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I know the game from a coaches standpoint. I don't have the pure technical knowledge that they do, yet that doesn't keep me from knowing a good player from a bad one.

Long story short, stats are important but ONLY if you know how to interpret them. Even then, they only tell PART of the story, which is why someone like Manning goes #1 and someone like Quinn falls.

Now don't believe that scouts have to pick a negative and automatically play the accuracy card. The TRUTH is that EVERY player has negatives, but those negatives vary from QB to QB. Here's an example:

Philip Rivers:

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Weight:
230
40-Yard Dash:
4.95
Positives:
Rivers has good size and arm strength, but it's his incredibly quick release and uncanny accuracy (71%) that catches my eye. He is an intelligent pocket passer, and he has good instincts for the position. Goes through his progressions well, often finding secondary receivers. Not very athletic, but he does throw well on the run. A tremendous leader who doesn't rattle easily.
Negatives:
He is probably never going to be the type of quarterback that you would hold up as an example for young players to study. He has a very unorthodox delivery (tends to sidearm the ball) and his footwork needs some improvement. Overall, he does not have a lot of athleticism and his lack of mobility is a concern.
Projection:

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So clearly negatives aren't cookie-cutter responses just to throw out negatives. It's different for each QB.

Again, Quinn dropped for a number of factors. One was the lack of apparent need for QB's higher in the draft, another was that he has questions in his game, accuracy past the shorter routes being one of the biggest. That doesn't mean he won't be good. It does mean he was perceived as having issues which don't show up in the stat lines.

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and yet you talk about the guy like hes a long shot...

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If accuracy on ten yard throws is "something even Dorsey could do" then pray tell why does Anderson have so much trouble with it?

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Welcome to a more sane forum, Spirit

Anderson is old news. He's on the bench, now is Quinn's time. The context of the thing you are referrencing are in a different part of the conversation, so I'm leaving it back there.

This is Quinn's time now. We've made the switch and I'm sticking to him regarding QB topics, unless it's about trade values and whatnot.

Not gonna do the quotey thingy, but I'll respond briefly to your questions and/or comments:

If Quinn were a sure-thing prospect, someone would have traded up to get him. I bet if he were rated so highly, the Fish wouldn't have been able to pass him up Remember, they said (and I don't necessarily believe it because I think they may have been covering their asses) they had Beck equally rated. That's a FACTUAL comment, and one they wouldn't make lightly. Yes, they were idiots, but other teams didn't have Quinn rated as a sure-fire, top-spot prospect.

Here's one article from the Sun-Sentinel that explains how Quinn wasn't viewed as a sure-shot prospect, and why he fell:

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There seems to be more questions than answers surrounding Notre Dame quarterback Brady Quinn, who is a potentially appealing option for the Dolphins if still available with the No. 9 pick in April's draft.

Quinn has had his fare share of criticism in recent weeks.

Quinn became Notre Dame's all-time leading passer while throwing 37 touchdowns and seven interceptions in 2006. But ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. said Quinn "didn't have great games against great teams," while NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock added that he frequently missed spotting open receivers and has an "accuracy issue."

"Quinn is not the talk of the draft," Kiper said last week in a media conference call. "In fact, he's lost momentum. So if he goes ninth, I think he should be happy."

Quinn didn't have the chance to disprove his critics in Combine workouts, as he sat out because of a minor knee injury. Quinn did open scouts' eyes by bench-pressing 225 pounds 25 times, the highest quarterback total in the memories of combine organizers.

Quinn hasn't played a game in almost two months, but he is in danger of becoming this year's Matt Leinart. Last year the USC quarterback fell from a possible No. 1 overall pick to No. 10.

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And fall he did. YES, teams past the Fish didn't draft him because many didn't need a QB, but that doesn't change the fact that teams didn't trade UP to get him. You can suggest that perhaps teams did. Fine, but there's no proof of it.

The only things we know for sure are that teams past the Fish didn't need a QB, and that no teams besides the Browns made noise to move up, and that he had many questions that rated him lower than guys like 'Berger, Rivers, and Eli Manning.

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What have you proven? That Scouts Inc. had questions? Can you show me ANY scouting report anywhere that does not list questions about EVERY player?

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I guess I am doing the quotey thingy

I can show you scouting reports that don't automatically list ACCURACY as a question

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You have NO way of knowing who was trying to move up to get Quinn or who wasn't. If we were the only one's, or just the one who made the best offer.

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Those stories always come out, and there are none about Quinn. If teams did, we'd know about it.

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Speculation and proof are two seperate things in case you were confused about that.

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We have proof that Quinn has accuracy questions, we have proof that Quinn was falling down the charts right before the draft, we have proof that Quinn DID fall on draft day......what other proof do you want?

Now I'm waiting for the next idiot to tell me I hate Quinn or that this is about Anderson

WILL THE FIRST IDIOT PLEASE STAND UP!!

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You have a double standard plain and simple...you didnt respond this way to Anderson.

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Man can u spin a pretty Tail ...

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Toad's don't have tails. Tadpoles have tails.

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the BQ/big game theory was CRAP ,... and U know it .. what I love about that is how when u are spinning your web to DC .. its all about how ND played a weak schedule and how tough the SEC was .....

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I thought about that after I typed it and left for the golf course, and figured you might get bent out of shape over that one *L* The honest intent was to list examples of how the variables are different. It would take some diggin' on my part to determine the differences in the strength of schedules, but it's not that important to me.

Now do I think he won or didn't win big games? I didn't say. Take it up with the pundits

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there are no accuracy issues .. AND U WILL SEE ..... as will everyone else ..

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I hope so. I have reason for doubt, but also for optimism.

Here's something else to hang your hat on. When he has his first really bad game, and we both know it'll come sooner rather than later, I'll be right there defending him. Then I'll be a Quinny Until then, I'm a Quinn-hater

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Nice Job though ... theres actually a ton of good info in your web of deciet ...

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OverSpider? Nah, it doesn't have a good ring to it, but thanks anyway

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You have NO way of knowing who was trying to move up to get Quinn or who wasn't. If we were the only one's, or just the one who made the best offer.

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If accuracy on ten yard throws is "something even Dorsey could do" then pray tell why does Anderson have so much trouble with it?

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Welcome to a more sane forum, Spirit

Anderson is old news. He's on the bench, now is Quinn's time. The context of the thing you are referrencing are in a different part of the conversation, so I'm leaving it back there.

This is Quinn's time now. We've made the switch and I'm sticking to him regarding QB topics, unless it's about trade values and whatnot.

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We shall see if it's a more sane forum You want to stick to Quinn thats cool.

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and when my boy has a bad game

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That's getting kind of old. Maybe we can go with MB instead.

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and this is all about U lying about why he fell ...

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Toad can defend himself but I do wish you'd stop saying he's lying. He's not lying. He's approaching the situation from another angle but I just read this entire thread and in no instance did he factually lie.

Now on to another part of this. Unlike Toad I followed Quinn, from his days at Dublin Coffman to Notre Dame to now. And he did have accuracy questions at every step. Why? Because he was accurate 90 some % of the time. Then for no good reason he'd just totally miss an open receiver. Like whiz one a good 5 feet over their head. It was bizzare.

Is Quinn accurate. I would say as a blanket statement he is. Does he throw a couple headscratchingly inaccurate passes a game. He is KNOWN for it. I know you watched all the games. I watched most. You have to know exactly what I'm talking about. Quinn/Notre Dame fans chime in if you like.

So even though you can blast away at others who didn't watch the games you can't blast away at me.

And that's the TRUTH. And you're still a dOLt.

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So Ted Ginn Jr. was a better pick than BQ?

See how silly you sound?



So since those in charge at Miami at the time were idiots, that bolsters your point?

I hardly think so.

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I tried to stay away from this topic but my curiousity got the better of me.

I have only read Toad's responses from this page, so I never saw where he wrote where Ginn was a better choice. I don't think Ginn ever deserved to be drafted anywhere near the top 10. I believe I thought he was at best a second round pick.

I just want to point out the Casserly was fired from Houston for passing up on hometown boy Vince Young and the HOFer in waiting Reggie Bush. Seems to me that he made the right choice after year two. Sucks to be him.

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Vers and I even watched one from last year when he was here ... go to the other board and ask him if BQ had any head scratchingly innacuratre throws in that game .. don't ask him anything else though .. *L* ...

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You don't want him asking Vers anything else because he knows far more than you about everthing related to Quinn.

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Now what i did say .. and I told Vers and Toad and Tabber this in PM's pre draft ... and i may have even said it on here ..... about everyother game he would have a series of 3 or 4 passes bunched together where everything he threw would be high .. and it was almost always throws to the sidelines .. it was really wierd .. then after that one series .. he's be right back to normal .. me and my brother would just look at each other and say ... what the heck is that??? ..

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I know that you will have a tough time with this but why not. I'll even give U one shot at comprehension.

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I'm an IDIOT ... I need more than 1 shot ... U gotta give me 3 or 4 at a bare minimum .. *L* ..

Don't need it on this one ... as soon as I hit enter I said I should go back and edit it and include the part that they were ALL SHORT PASSES ... every single one of them was 5 yards of less ... either flanker screens or short outs ....

But I decided to see how u handled my obvious oversight ...

OH and why that is IMPORTANT .. is because Toadie and his pundits made it clear it was INTERMIEDATE TO DEEP STUFF he was INNACURRATE ON ..

and that don't bail your ass out anhow .. IT WAS EVERY OTHER GAME .. U said he did it in EVERY GAME ...

and U promised The master of spin you'd be nice to me ... guess being a man of your word and all THaT DidN'T LasT LoNG .... *L* ..

Oh and BTW MeNZa ... throwing 2 or 3 passes a game that aren't accurate does not make u INNacCuRAtE .... all QB's do that every week ......

Shocka Bra ...

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and U promised The master of spin you'd be nice to me ... guess being a man of your word and all THaT DidN'T LasT LoNG .... *L* ..

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I didn't know you had such thin skin. If I knew I wouldn't tease you. I will take you temporarily off the dOLt list just this once. But you should read what you write sometime. It's interesting!

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I don't have the #'s ... but over his last two years ... there may not have been one game he threw 25 passes or less .... maybe one .... my guess would be he threw at a minimum 35 a game ... prolly even a few more .... we passed alot ....

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I knew that he passed a lot.

But you know how people around here can be.



So I felt if it was "understated", it would be hard for anyone to say I was trying to "overstate" my point. And that my figues in regards to his accuracy would be even BETTER than I stated if anything.



Because much like yourself, I didn't have those stats in front of me and KNEW he threw more than that. In which case, it would only bolster my point.

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I actually know someone with the Browns, actually several people

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Are you sure it's actually not 10? How about actually 20 Hey, when one doesn't make a point, use several. That'll make it more believable

It's always nice meeting a fan If you want my autograph, just PM me your address and I'll send it right away........

......or should I just send it to Berea?

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I actually know someone with the Browns, actually several people

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Are you sure it's actually not 10? How about actually 20 Hey, when one doesn't make a point, use several. That'll make it more believable

It's always nice meeting a fan If you want my autograph, just PM me your address and I'll send it right away........

......or should I just send it to Berea?

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Yeah right ....I've been waiting for my autograph for two years.