DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Thought about Savage...

Looks like the general feeling around here is that Savage does a lot better with his sleeper/late round picks. His top picks overall have not been quite what we expected. Is there any way that he is doing well in the later rounds because Romeo is a lot more hands off with the later rounds? Is there a chance that a new head coach would actually improve Savages top round picks by offering better input towards the teams needs? I don't want to turn this into a blaime Romeo thread, but is there a chance that an improved coach could even help our drafts?

I think we just need better talent on defense.

Adding a first or second round MLB would help, as well as another OLB to help Wimbley. Hall is doing well... But I don't know if he is a bonofide beast. Definitely too early to tell, but come draft time, if there is a "Gamer" at the OLB spot... We take him.

when you have as many needs as we have had over the last 4 years, sometimes you must choose the best player at a "need" position rather than the best player available on day 1. in the later rounds, i think we were just looking for any value and depth players, so it's easier to go with BPA.

Phil has a challenging job ahead in the offseason..
Because now the offense needs more work..
A true # 2 WR...
What he's going to do with K2
A replacement for Lewis.
And a change of pace back
Tucker is nearing his end..hmmm another situation.
Oh..DA..

Defense..he has got to find a stud ILB..and a pass rusher.
He also needs a big corner.
What to do with Sean Jones..
He's got his work cut out for him.

Needs this off season

1 RB
1WR
1 O-lineman
2 D-lineman
3 LB'ers
2 DB's

Thats 10 holes, and we will not be able to fill them all in one off season.

Needs this off season

1 RB We do need another RB. Don't think any beasts are coming out this year though. Maybe snag a FA. Not sure who will be available right now
1WR Not sure if we need another. Joe will be coming back. And also Hubbard should be ready for some PT. He has potential
1 O-lineman True.
2 D-lineman We can get a nice mid round d-line. Shaun Smith and Robaire Smith have some more years left in them. Maybe add one for depth. Leonard is on the block.
3 LB'ers Bring in 2. Must be day one picks!!! One MLB, and One OLB. I like Jasper Brinkley and Ray Mahluga (sp?).
2 DB's CORRECT!!! Get rid of Cousins!! PLEASE!!!

Thats 10 holes, and we will not be able to fill them all in one off season.

Unfortuantely we will need a WR.
Stallworthless is not a dependable player..another Lee Suggs..maybe worse.
I would expect JJ to think about calling it quits..that knee isn't going to hold up..
We have no other WR to really go to..

I think we need to get Savage out of here. I'm really not impressed by what he has done here. I am not including this year's draft in this because it was so small and because we haven't had time to really evaluate that draft yet.

Free Agency mistakes:
Brian Russell (letting a leader go when we needed him...)
Derek Anderson (extension & not trading in off season)
Trent Dilfer
Donte Stallworth
Shaffer (having this guy start at LT for a year was a horrible choice)

Blown Draft Picks and I mean in terms of where we took them. Braylon isn't a blown pick, but worth a #3 overall? No way...A couple of these guys have some value but not what we spent for them...

Charlie Frye
Braylon Edwards
Kamerion Wimbley
Babatunde Oshinowo
Demario Minter
Isaac Sowells
Antonio Perkins
David McMillan
Andrew Hoffman
Jonathon Dunn
Travis Wilson

This is who we have still on the team from all 3 of Savage's first draft here its only 9 guys out of what could have been 21 picks!.. And don't forget we drafted high 2 years and middle 1 year!

Braylon Edwards
Brodney Pool
Brady Quinn
Lawrence Vickers
Joe Thomas
Eric Wright
Brandon McDonald
Syndric Steptoe
Jerome Harrison

I know a lot of you love Savage, but I don't see what is so great about what he has done. He has had a few good picks like Joe Thomas, but when its a #3 overall, it SHOULD be a good pick!

I've been thinking about Savage's draft picks of late....
when laid out on paper, combined they are not that terrific, are they?

I'd be interetsed in seeing a composite of drafts from other teams to see how many picks are still with those respective teams.

He made the right choice in Braylon...the only other pick that woulda worked woulda been Merriman.

People have already written BE off? The clubs single season TD recpetion holder? He just needs true leadership...and HC that kicks his butt.

Phil has been GREAT at getting talent...im not gonna pick him apart, every GM makes mistakes as far as FA and drafting. But hes been pretty good for us in that area. I dont see how you could be upset in the aspect.

The aspect I have an issue with is the managment part of the GM job, he doesnt know how to deal with problems, problem players, or the coaching staff.

If you wanna pick, you can pick apart nearly all GM's...but Phil has done alot good and wrong. But hes been pretty crisp in talent evaluation. But, thats only half the job.

DE ... I don't care who comes back : We need a Monster DE. to team with Rogers ( at Nose ) ..No body on our Roster fits that Bill ..

LB ... At least one Monster in the middle and one speed man on the outside ... Once again no Body has the Proven ability on Today's roster

CB at least one " Big Corner " and hope that we get Holly back for Nickel & Dime packages.

Going to have address Jones and Safety position ....

And that's just the " D " side ...

I agree to a point. I am one of those fans ready to write BE off. This pro football and Edwards isn't getting it done. Now maybe a coach like Cowher can get the most out of him and tame Winslow. But as far as Savage he has done well with the talent evaluation and bringing in young players but he's had some bad luck with injuries and some picks not panning out as expected. Take Wimbley for instance. He isn't a stud like we all expected but he is a SOLID football player( I think we need to keep Savage, hire Cowher. I see Crennel as being the biggest problem. Yeah he is a great guy and the players like him but it doesn't seem to me that they all respect him. Take Edwards as an example.

If we continue down this 3-4 path...we are totally screwed. We need 3 LB's. Its hard enough to find 3-4 players as is..with more teams using it.

Its signifgantlª easier to find 4-3 DE and LB's...I think we should keep Williams and Rogers...which gives us 2stud DT's. Draft a DE..and sign a vet. Alex Hall can be a 3rd down pass rusher.

We have DQ, Williams, and Bell...hopefully 2 of the 3 can play..we will also need to sign a LB...maybe a starter..and draft 2 or 3.

We should look into a real FS to pair with Pool....I think we have to wait another year and evaluate our CB's after we have an NFL front 7.

Most of all this defense needs SPEED!!!

I agree. We need a stud DE, a LB and a corner. I also think we need to have the capability to run both the 4-3 and 3-4 defense.

Bill Cowher is the answer to our problems.

This was in a thread that I think got deleted, but it's a reply I made to the following quote Dave:

Quote:

Sometimes I read some of the posts here and wonder if maybe I am only imagining that this team is 3-6. Maybe I only dreamed that this team has sucked ass for 8 of 10 years since it returned. Because according to some of you, nobody is ever to blame ... nobody is accountable. .. Something essential and basic is wrong here.

/rant

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I think you're right. That won't win you a lot of points on these boards, but I think you're right.

Here are some of the more memorable excuses: "Romeo has only been a HC for a few years. He needs time."

Yet he makes mistakes (i.e. clock management, other in-game decisions) that a kid playing Madden wouldn't make. No exaggeration, either.

How about this one: "I'm a college coach, and gosh gee whiz I know how hard it is to coach! Give the guys a break."


You think Cowher, Jeff Fisher, Parcells puts up with crap, and gives their players too much of an easy ride – like Romeo has apparently done for four years? Throw 'em under the bus publicly if they need it! F'em!

I'm getting tired of investing my time and emotions into this ... team season after season. It appears, frankly, that some of our players are sissies, and have no balls.
Braylon Edwards: catch the ... ball. Sean Jones: Get a clue.

(Most of) Linebackers: Make some plays, even the basic ones like a form tackle! Actually, forget that, as most of you will be gone or on the bench in 2009. Good riddance to garbage.


Romeo: Play Jerome Harrison. He's producing, you dumb ass!!!

Quote:

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Great job with the Quote button!

It's not as bad as all that.

1 RB - Doesn't have to be a first round pick, someone to develop, won't have to start right away. Maybe even wait until next year and draft one on day one.
1 WR - Just need a solid player who can catch in the clutch... maybe we already have him, maybe we go get him.
1 O-lineman - Definitely need a talented RG who can run block and pass protect.
2 D-lineman - Maybe one will do if the Smiths can stay healthy.
3 LB'ers - An ILB and and OLB, and get Davis & Willie out of there, put Bell & Hall in to get them experience now.
2 DB's - One big top pick corner with actual talent at man coverage. Holly comes back. Maybe get a super safety...

Thats only 7-8 holes, definitely able to do it in one year with the draft and FA... In fact this should be the year we round out the team and make it whole. Let's face it, almost impossible to do in three years given what Savage had to work with in the beginning. We even have some cards to deal for more picks and the chance to add depth and bring in future replacement talent.

Then get a real D-coord... assuming RAC is still the coach. :P

Maybe it's me, but you appear to be over analizing it a bit..

I doubt Romeo has much to do with the draft other than input and that's from top to bottom

Take the Wimbley pick as an example.. It appears that Savage had identified two quality guys that were available when we picked.. He did the right thing I think by approaching his coach and saying which is more important to you at this moment.. Pass rushing LB or Nose Tackle.. RAC chose the LB and thus we tooks Wimbley.. but not without picking up an extra pick from the Ravens so they could move up and get Ngota..

It actually made sense. Now, one could argue that Ngota is better than Wimbley and I doubt you would get too many to argue with you about it (I won't).

But the point is, two guys that fill needs were identified and the choice was not so much about the guys, but about the position they play.


I think it's pretty simple.. we haven't picked well on the Defensive side of the ball since savage has been here..

On the offensive side, we've taken Edwards, Quinn and Thomas in the first round. I think it's safe to say that Thomas was sound,, Edwards, when in control and his head isn't in his butt, is rather amazing at times.. and Quinn,, well, so far so good,, but way too new to rate. (although if I were to guess, I'd say that Quinn will turn out to be the biggest coup of the savage era up to this point).

So, what and where do we need help... Defense.. without question, Defense.

Our offense with Quinn in there looked like they could score at any moment.. I think teams will need to be afraid of us in the near term future..

But on D,, the only person on that side of the ball that is earning his paycheck is Rogers..

I'd say the Two corners are going to be ok,, but they are young and just need seasoning. (that's a guess on my part... who really knows)

Safeties,,, With Jones hurting, I honestly don't know what we have there... (jones was a Davis pick) Pool hits like a freight train, but neither of our safeties will remind anyone of Troy Palumula in Pittsburgh.

Our D line other than rogers seems OK.. NOT OUTSTANDING.. but ok.

We need LB"s that can do the job.. Maybe Hall is one.. I hope Wimbley gets out of his funk.. Jackson is a backup and Davis shouldn't be here anymore. Then there is Willie.. once great, now not so much...

I sure hope we can get some LB's in the draft... JMO...

If we continue down this 3-4 path...we are totally screwed. We need 3 LB's. Its hard enough to find 3-4 players as is..with more teams using it.

No we're not screwed.Get a grip..
The key to any 34 is the LB'S..you need a hammer on the inside and a great pass rusher on the outside , thats what is lacking.
The GM has to project how a particular player fits their system ..and looks for those players..
The Browns can be successful if they scout properly..
I'm in favor of the 34 which can be run with multiple looks more so than a 43.
The LB unit does need retooling but it can be done.

J/K

Savage is not the problem, Phil has brought this franchise back to respectability with his draft picks, FA signings and other moves.

Granted not all his moves have worked out, Show me a GM who is batting 100% as many think he should, heck show me a GM who has 75% of his draft picks still in the leauge or work out.

Phil can pick the best steak in the store, but if the coachs dont cook it right, it's gonna taste bad. down the same lines as Bill Parcells spoke of.

Quote:

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This is who we have still on the team from all 3 of Savage's first draft here its only 9 guys out of what could have been 21 picks!.. And don't forget we drafted high 2 years and middle 1 year!

Braylon Edwards
Brodney Pool
Brady Quinn
Lawrence Vickers
Joe Thomas
Eric Wright
Brandon McDonald
Syndric Steptoe
Jerome Harrison

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Yeah, damn only 3 of the 9 players mentioned went to the Pro Bowl last year in Edwards, Thomas and Vickers. You're right we should fire his ass. (rolls eyes). I wish we still had Gerard Warren and Courtney Brown. Those two picks of the Botcher's were so much better.

Trent, Mr. Dilfer is that you?!

Uh, what?

You're writing off Edwards who everyone agreed during the draft was the BPA. Who SHOULD we have taken with the no. 3 pick that year?

I would have liked to have seen us keep Russell, too. However, we have Jones and Pool who, when healthy, play pretty well, IMO.

Also, you're throwing Savage away for his low round draft picks who didn't pan out? Outside of Wimbley, what round were the guys you mentioned drafted in?

Charlie Frye - 3rd round
Braylon Edwards - 1st round
Kamerion Wimbley - 1st round
Babatunde Oshinowo - 6th round
Demario Minter - 5th round
Isaac Sowells - 4th round
Antonio Perkins - 4th round
David McMillan - 5th round
Andrew Hoffman - 6th round
Jonathon Dunn - 7th round
Travis Wilson - 3rd round

Now, let's look at some other things:

Joe Thomas - 1st round
Brady Quinn - 1st round
DQwell Jackson - 2nd round
Alex Hall - 7th round
Brodney Pool - 2nd round
Jerome Harrison - 5th round

Oh, and I guess we can just throw out the following guys, too:

Eric Steinbach
Shaun Rogers
Josh Cribbs
Jamal Lewis
Dave Zastudil

What exactly is that you want in a GM? To draft nothing but hall of famers and sign every free agent who can make a difference, regardless of cost?

I mean, you're seriously upset we got rid of Trent Dilfer? You're seriously upset that Shaffer played LT for one year, which I think everyone knew was going to be his ONLY year at that position and who has held his own at RT?

Has Savage made mistakes? Absolutely. I never really liked the Baxter signing.

But this is the guy who brought in Bentley, too, the most coveted of free agents that year. Who knew he'd get hurt.

And the contracts that a lot of these guys have signed have been pretty cap friendly, too.

Get rid of Savage? What a joke.

That's revisionist history. Many on the board thought he'd be a great replacement for Tucker and a better fit at RT than LT but....

The front office signed him and expected him to be our LT for years and years to come. Obviously we didn't know we were going to be god awful in our second season with this group and didn't know that Joe Thomas would fall into our lap.

But when Shaffer was signed it was a long term move to shore up our LT position. He had never played RT!

If you think otherwise then prove "That was laid out in detail the day we signed him."

I know that I never really thought Shaffer was our answer at LT since he was the strongside tackle for Vick. I pretty much always assumed he'd move to the right side.

j/k

1 RB - Doesn't have to be a first round pick, someone to develop, won't have to start right away. Maybe even wait until next year and draft one on day one.

Agreed, A better game combination of Lewis & Harrison & Wright will help, but this also depends on who's availble when we draft. If Jenkins or Megula Spelling is availble it's be nuts to grab a RB even if it's a Wells or Moreno. we can wait, We need D

1 WR - Just need a solid player who can catch in the clutch... maybe we already have him, maybe we go get him.

Agreed, but I'd like a veteran if JJ isnt gonna return.
1 O-lineman - Definitely need a talented RG who can run block and pass protect.

As for me we never have enough soild O-lineman a first day draft without picking one is a mistake.


2 D-lineman - Maybe one will do if the Smiths can stay healthy.
I believe were ok. See LB.
3 LB'ers - An ILB and and OLB, and get Davis & Willie out of there, put Bell & Hall in to get them experience now.

We need a force, Remember A.Davis renegotiated his deal to not get released so his one year deal is up this year and will not be resigned. agreed we need a stud, would like this to be our first rounder. D-Line will be better with a better set of Lb behind them, which leads to a better blitzing scheme. We have a hard time blitzing now becuase when we do everybody is one - on one and our LB of now cant cover & our corners are young.


2 DB's - One big top pick corner with actual talent at man coverage. Holly comes back. Maybe get a super safety... Agree : safety or corner with our 1st or 2nd round picks, or both if we can get something for winslow & DA. cousins needs to go, I cant believe Holly is our answer, it's easy to use his name, he hasnt blown a coverage all year, I'd rather have a hard hitting safety with our corners, I do think they will be allright.

Thats far from revisioninst history .... MANY OF US SAID IT THE DAY WE SIGNED HIM ... and we all know U think I'm an IDIOT as its been well documented by U over the last month ... so if a dumb ass like me can FIGURE THAT ONE OUT THE DAY WE SIGNED HIM .... then I would imagine the dumb asses (according to U) we have in the FO would be able to deduce that one also ..

theres a big difference between we need someone/ANYONE to play LT now and he is our long term solution at the position ....

like i said if one DUMB ASS could figure it out then the other DUMB ASSES can to ... (I would be dumb ass #1 and the FO would be dumb ass #2 ... at least according to U ... ) ..

oh .. and what would U expect Opie to say the day we signed him ... yes hes our RT of the future but were going to play him at LT until we can find someone else??? ... ya . that would be the way to handle that one .... I am sure Shaff would have felt real good about that vote of confidence .. *LOL* ...

Were not as far away as people think ... getting even remotely close to healthy and an OLman a DLman and 2 LBers would go a long ass way in getting us where we need to be ...

Well put.

You didn't invite me to the conversation but there is a quote from Phil at some point saying "Shaffer is our LT for the time being"..and he added a little later they were looking to upgrade the position..

If Savage has done such a great job, why are we about to have our 3rd losing season out of 4 years? If its a coaching issue, why did he let Crennel stay this long...

I think you're underestimating the job that Botch did on this team. When Phil and RAC took over, we were a terrible TERRIBLE team. It was like inheriting an expansion team. That's 2 years of building right there. Quite frankly, it should have extended into last year, too. But, due to the pieces that Savage had put in, we were able to get a winning team on the field.

This year, we've had some key injuries, some key poor play, and a tough schedule. Throw all those in a mix and you have what we have now. But is it all Savage's fault? C'mon...

I know you can read. Show me where it was laid out on day 1 by the browns. You can't. He was signed to be our LT for years not a one year plug and flip.

And I know that many people here said he'd be our RT. I thought that would be the backup plan if he had problems with speed rushers. But answer me this....show me where the Browns said it "on day 1".

And that 35M would have made him....if not the highest paid RT in NFL history...then it's awfully close.


I know it was posted a billion times by people on this board. I remember it. But that doesn't mean that was the Browns stance on this.

And no way....no way do they pay 35M for a guy they expect as a one year LT then take over for Tucker. Unless you think Savage is an idiot.

It was Maverick who posted this:

Tell that to Phil Savage, who called Schaffer (the LT he signed) "adequate" and might be better suited for the Right side.

Heldawg..Phil could not say day one that KS was signed and will play LT until a better guy was brought in..
He made comments after the season and all the evalutations were discussed.