DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Thought about Savage...

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BTW, it's your OPINION that Anderson not being traded was a mistake. It's other's opinion that it's more important to find our QB than it is to pretend each player is a comodity on the stock martket.

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I agree. After watching the QB ranks throughout the NFL get decimated with injuries last year, I was pretty comfortable keeping two guys we believe can at least be serviceable and at best be Pro Bowlers. What if he had traded DA for say, the legendary first and third, then we lose Brady to a season ending knee injury (like the other Brady). You could bet that the boards would be howling for Savages head. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Shaffer Trade in the Works?

April 29, 2007

UPDATE FROM TGI'S KEN PALMER: While the Browns did, indeed, contact the Giants regarding left tackle Kevin Shaffer, it's highly unlikely that a trade will be made. The Browns' asking price - of either a fourth-round pick during the recently-concluded draft or a third rounder next year - was too steep for the Giants' taste. As a result, New York didn't even make a counter-offer.

Cleveland, a club that has had little to no offensive line depth in recent seasons, isn't going to just give Shaffer away unless they get the right price. The Browns, of course, just drafted Joe Thomas to play left tackle with Shaffer, the previous LT, expected to compete with Ryan Tucker for the right tackle job.


ORIGINAL STORY


The Cleveland Browns and New York Giants have reportedly been in contact about a potential trade of LT Kevin Shaffer to the Giants, according to Ken Palmer of TheGiantsInsider at Scout.com. The Giants have confirmed that there have been discussions, according to Palmer.


While common thinking in the wake of the Browns decision to draft Wisconsin LT Joe Thomas has been that Shaffer would switch to right tackle, it's worth noting that the tackle hasn't spent time at the position in the NFL. It's often suggested that Shaffer was in a right tackle role with the Falcons because he didn't protect the left-handed Michael Vick's blind side, but Shaffer's ability to make the position switch is still an unknown.

Trading Shaffer would mean that there are still open questions about the Browns right tackle position, since Ryan Tucker's season-long available would still have to considered questionable. Reserve tackle Kelly Butler is generally not considered to be an NFL-caliber starting right tackle. At this point, there have been no reports recieved by the OBR regarding players or compensation the Browns might request in exchange.


Trading Shaffer would also cause over $7.5 million to accelerate to the Browns 2007 salary cap. Shaffer signed a seven-year contract with the Browns in 2006 with an estimated $9 million in bonuses. If those reports are accurate, six years of the pro-rated bonus would have to be absorbed this year.

The Browns have not been reached for comment at this hour.

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So the plan was to overpay for a RT, put him at LT for one year, then find his replacement, then try and trade him to the Giants for a 4th rounder and then if that doesn't work out. Guy is our RT!

Do you know how corny that sounds? And I promise to tone down the "smack" talk. But what happened and "plan from Day 1" is just FALSE.

Refute it if you can with a published story please.

Shaff was not in a vacuum ... we weren't his only suitors .. and he wanted LT type money ... so we had to pay it ... WE HAD NO ONE TO PLAY LT ... NO ONE ... so we OVERPAID FOR HIM .. imagine that ... someone being over paid in FA .. WOW .. theres a shocker .. *L* ...

Toad .. to bad U can't use the dumb ass defense like I can ... *L* ...

Guess this turned into a Shaffer thread ???

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If Savage has done such a great job, why are we about to have our 3rd losing season out of 4 years?

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1. Never said Opie did even a good job much less a great job ...

2. How long did U think it would take to start winning .. did u think this was a one year thing and we'd be on our way??

3. the first year was spent TEARING DOWN and that affected the cap year 1 and year 2 ... so we really did NO RE-BUILDING in year 1 and year 2 was limited ... to bad your impatience does not allow u to understand that ...

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If its a coaching issue, why did he let Crennel stay this long...

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1, who said it ws coaching??? .. I know it wasn't me ... *L* ..

2. Exactly when should he have been fired ... at the Bye week last or this past off season ... let me know when u think the right time should have been ...

U know what dude .. don't bother ... your to cagey for me .. I give up .. U win .. can um all ... and while were at it .. lets get rid of Lerner also as this is all really his fault ... hopefully the team moves again and in 7 years or so we can get a GOOD OWNER IN and all will be well ...

looks that way ... its better than a can RAC or a DA/BQ sucks .. nor hes great thread ... *L* ...

No worries mate .. I;m bowing out of this ... hmmmm ... can't even think of the right word to call this nonsense ...

Man you are going overboard..dude was the better option for the Browns and was paid to come here..it was never stated he was cemented at that spot.
They had to do it and see how he played ..they needed a LT desperately.
He was young and viable and at the time the best option in Phils mind.

When 06 ended Phil and the coaching staff knew they needed a upgrade and the only place to get it was the draft.
Really not sure your point...but it's done.

I think this is more about the scheme and play on the field, the lack of heart in a few (arguably) skilled positions. I am OK with savage; it was much worse before his arrival. And we have plugged and patched extensively, way too extensively. He can't be blamed for hype and excessive expectations. Many fans are still starved for real NFL caliber football as they have seen it played. We have not, without opening a can of worms as to the reason for that, and getting into blame-fixing for the lack thereof. But we are not using people for what we drfted them to do, and we are losing too often because of refusal to do what beats us. PRessuring QB's comes to mind as only one example. Some of this is individuals' abilities and talents. But we can be more ambitious and more aggressive in the game called on both sides of the ball. Good picks won't address weakness in that department IMO. For what it probably is worth.

Well,, Savage is failing. Didn't he say when he first got here, that we would build through the draft ?
I haven't seen it. only just a little. seems it's more through FA than the draft.
And we have a coach that can't coach. every post game comment is ,, "I think". he should know by now, instead of ,,, I think.
Just look at the "W" & "L" .. ratbirds rookie qb. falcons rookie qb. how long we kept bq on the bench? we played easy schd last year. We should've just got the Oz and turned it over to him. jmho
But hey,, who knows ? maybe we'll implode again and we can start all over, AGAIN.
When u hire people with no proven track record,, u get what u get.
I know I'm tired of waiting too, but I'll still keep waiting. Hell , I've been waiting since "64",, and I'll continue to wait.. What another 44 yrs... ???

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Just talking O-line...we need a center...Fraley is good for now, but his body is the type that will go down quickly when it starts to happen....guts and desire are his game...so we have to get a good player in here so he has a year or two to get ready for the demands of the position.

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Always love to talk O-line.....I do believe we should always draft a O-linemen on day one of the draft, but as for Fraley, I'm for drafting or signing a FA center and moving Fraley to guard. Tucker I dont believe we can count on him anymore.

I would like us to aquire a couple more 2nd round picks for DA & Winslow and usign them to do this.

1. LB or Secondary Depends whos there when we draft, best A.Availble
2. Secondary or LB Same best A. at one of those two positions.
2. O-Linemen ( center / guard )
2. Best availble at LB CB or RB.

Keep in mind if we Trade DA we will be looking to address the back-up QB position and Dorsey isnt the answer, so we draft a QB in later rounds or sign a veteran QB. Remember this QB will not be our 3rd but 2nd. I do think Dorsey might be able to handle a game or two but if something happens where Quinn goes down for any length of time our season might be well like Dallas. There's many roads to take on this but something to think about.

Ok there....slooooooowwwww down.

The Browns OFFERED Shaffer to the Giants for a FOURTH rounder. The Giants DECLINED.

The Browns wanted him and his contract gone the very next year after they OVERPAID.


And I'll go back and look at those contracts....we shall see. And we both know that the G structure changed drastically with the Seattle - Minnesota Hutchenson situation. Before that there were no Gs making anywhere near that money.

Simply explain why we offered Shaffer to the Giants for a fourth rounder.

Free Agency mistakes:
Brian Russell (letting a leader go when we needed him...) I agree with you here, but I also see why Phil let him go. We thought Pool was ready to step in and start there.

Derek Anderson (extension & not trading in off season)
Completely disagree. In this league having two starting caliber QB's is key. And DA played well last year; we needed to see if he could do it and be our franchise quarterback.

Trent Dilfer Dilfer was awful and there was a rift between him and the coaching staff. He needed to go.

Donte Stallworth He's better than what our other options are/were. No one could have predicted he'd be hurt this much.

Shaffer (having this guy start at LT for a year was a horrible choice) He was the best option available. We signed him with the full intention of later moving him to the right side. No one else available was as good as Shaffer.


Blown Draft Picks and I mean in terms of where we took them. Braylon isn't a blown pick, but worth a #3 overall? No way...A couple of these guys have some value but not what we spent for them...

Charlie Frye 3rd rounder. We needed a quarterback.

Braylon EdwardsWas a Pro-Bowler last year and has the Browns' record for most TD's in a single season. Was BPA.

Kamerion Wimbley Had 11 sacks as rookie. I actually agree that he isn't as good as he should be.

Babatunde Oshinowo 6th rounder.

Demario Minter 5th or 6th rounder.

Isaac Sowells 4th rounder who is active every week.

Antonio Perkins 4th rounder.

David McMillan 5th rounder.

Andrew Hoffman 6th rounder?

Jonathon Dunn 7th rounder.

Travis Wilson 3rd rounder, and yes, bad pick.

Now let's name some of Savage's good picks:

JT: I don't care that it was the #3 pick. It was a great pick and many wanted us to take AP or Quinn.

Quinn: Many wanted us to take him #3, but instead we got him at 22.

BE: You are wrong here. Braylon has many faults, such as a huge ego and extremely inconsistent hands, but he is still a very productive WR.

Vickers: Was picked in the 5th or 6th round and is one of the best Fullbacks in the NFL.

DQ: Is our best linebacker.

Alex Hall: A 7th round rookie who is already contributing.

Pool: Is starting to play pretty darn well.

McDonald: A 5th rounder I believe. He had a bad game last week, but he is still pretty dang good.

Eric Wright: A pretty darn good corner.

Jerome Harrison: A 5th rounder who gets very positive yardage and plays special teams.

Now here are the good trades and FA moves he's made:

DA: Despite how you feel about him, he was a great pick up.

Jamal: I don't think I need to explain.

Joe J.: A pretty good veteran WR who helps this team more than we will ever know.

Steinbach: A very good guard who is key to our offense.

Hank: The glue that holds our line together. He gets downfield and makes great line calls.

McKinney: Did a good job for us last year starting.

Hadnot: Has played pretty well.

Lenny Freidman: Great special teamer and pretty good backup.


Now to others' posts in here and other threads:

I don't get the talk of switching to a 4-3. I think we are 2-3 linebackers and one corner from having a good to great defense.

Aside from those positions I think we need what GM mentioned earlier.

good post.. and you didn't even list Rogers or Williams in your trades/FA's.. section, nor did you include LeCharles Bentley who would have been a stud but is likely done for reasons completely out of Phils hands..

Phil hasn't been perfect, the problem is that we had so little when he got here, that every less than stellar pick, even a 5th rounder that didn't pan out, was magnified... If you could compare Phil to other GMs around the league and what they have brought to their team in the last few years, I bet Phil is better than the vast majority of them... what he needs this year is to hit a couple home runs.. we need a defensive impact player or two, one that doesn't rely on blitzes and stunts to get to the QB, one that can just beat his man... and we need a LB to stop the run.. we have other lesser needs, but I still view those as our 2 biggest.

Heck, thats even better than what I thought.......

Fire Phil...... .....We need to sign him up into a longer term deal.

I had them both there. I must have accidentally erased them.

All "facts" aside, is the guy overpaid or not?

I can't believe you dont......when you said......what a great contract it was on the backend!!!! Then you do value it!!!!

When you look at those inflated $80M contracts that everyone knows the player will never see the end of.....those are inflated!!!

This is the opposite and further proves my point.

You're sounding foolish now. Take some time and think about it and get back to me.

Just for everyone's knowledge...because Overtoad has put his little foot down.

The actual 2008 payments to these players....which include signing and option bonuses....you can figure out the rest of the years on your own....

Jon Jansen Salary: $5,870,000
Willie Anderson Salary: $6,452,040
Ryan Diem Salary: $3,504,800
Tony Pashos Salary: $6,610,000
Damien Woody Salary: $2,253,960
David Stewart Salary: $440,520
Marc Colombo Salary: $5,006,240
Mark Tauscher Salary: $4,728,240
Jonas Jennings Salary: $3,650,000

and our boy...who can't hold the jock of most of the aformentioned players...

Kevin Shaffer Salary: $4,250,000

For those interested in salaries click here: http://msn.foxsports.com/search?sp_q=marc+colombo

It has the 2008 salary information for every player. Just linked to Colombo's page...you can type a name and get the salary info.

Your site is very good. I'll use it from now on. Thanks!

Hindsight is always 20/20 ......

but wouldn't a DL that had both Shaun Rogers and Ngata on it be a wonderfully dangerous thing of beauty?

I wanted Ngata when the pick rolled around ..... but we made the trade instead .... and "fleeced" the Ravens out of a pick that turned into nothing .... and drafted a player who hasn't been all that yet either.

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But when Shaffer was signed it was a long term move to shore up our LT position. He had never played RT!

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When Shaffer was signed he had never played LT for a right-handed QB. He was essentially doing a RT's job only on the other side. Some of us thought he might soon be moved to LG, but very few expected him to stay at LT.

Hey, let's not forget Savage signing the UNDRAFTED Josh Cribbs. Here's a player that probably 30 other teams would want. Now that says a lot about Savage's ability as a talent scout and evaluator, management shortcomings notwithstanding.

I agree with you keylime.. what Savage hasn't been able to do yet, and what he needs to do right now, is find us that impact defensive player.. like a Palamalu or a Mario Williams a Justin Tuck or even a LaMar Woodley.. (yea I hate to put 2 Steelers on the list but lets face it these guys are good).. a rookie that burst on the scene and has a great rookie year and improves from there. I think some of his defensive draft picks have been pretty good but we still need one or two of those types of players that demand attention and make all of the other "good" players we have that much better

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Hindsight is always 20/20 ......

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Yes it is and firing a guy like Phil Savage because he didn't have benefit of hindsight is about as crazy as can be.. but that's JMO

J/C here thought i would chime in

I am not going to blast Savage's draft, the only pick I disagree with Savage was the Wimbely Pick..I said it on draft day we should have taken Ngata because stopping the run is the key to winning in the AFC North.

Think about it..the Steelers and Ravens all play smashmouth football...Ngata was a big Run Stopper...it don't take a genuis to figure out who to pick. It was a mistake, but mistakes happen...I cna't blame him too much after all, Edwards, Quinn and others seem to have turned out OK...ya take the good with the bad

My main reason for this reply is simple...we need to scrap the 3-4...we just can't run it. There is only 4 Head Coaches in the league that are capable of effectivly running a 3-4 and they are:

1. Bill Cowher
2. Marty Schotenheimer
3. Bill Bellichik
4. Wade Philips

Assistants
5. Dick Lebeau(is an assistant and not a HC)
6. Dom Capers(look for him to come here if we get Cowher, he ran that great Steelers Defense of the early 90's with Lloyd and Greene, Lebeau was DB backs coach under Dom Capers)

We just simply don't have the coach to run it...I personally don't like the 3-4...its harder to find personel to run it correctly, and belive it or not the 3-4 is so complicated that you can actually "out smart yourself" when trying to run it.

We need to go back to the 4-3..the Tampa 2 Over and Under Defense is a "proven" good Defense and the advatage of running it are:

1. Its easier to find DL to run it.
2. LB are more built on Speed then Strength(See Derrick Brooks)
3. LB are easier to find for it.
4. Schemes are easier to run and the system is easier to learn

This in turn allows you defense to "attack" instead of react and thing

Belive it or not, butch Davis had our Defense in the right direction. PRIOR to the Ravens game we lost on Sunday night football(thansk to Scott Frost shanking a punt 7 yards from our own endzone) the Browns had the NFL's 2nd ranked Run Defese and 9th ranked passing Defense in the league....the following week, Injuries to Courtney Brown, Andra Davis and others decimated our D and led to DAvis's demise here

We had the right scheme, and "most" of the players to run it...we just scrapped it too soon

Im sick of Coaches coming in here and tearing everything down...we need a coach who will come in here and win with what we have....for example, Dan Reeves took over a 2-14 giants team and turned them around to a 12-4 or 11-5 team the following year with the same guys...we need a coach like that

I personally don't think Warren or Brown were bad players, Heck in the 2 seasons they spent in Denver they had 1 heck of a Run Defense with our former DL coach under butch Davis running things...The LB out in Denver said it was nice to beable to "run free" without being blocked all the time.

Many people blasted Warren for his lack of production, when most of the time except the last 9 games he played here, Warren was doing his job...Warrens job was just to tie people up..thats it..and it worked until the injuries that year killed us

We need to go back to the 4-3, its is a more "flexible" Defense IMo and easier to pick up and much easier to find the personel to run it.

Williams and Rogers make Great DT, we can put a 1st rd pick on a DE, and Wimbely can be regulated to a DE/sitional Pass rusher...we have the safeties and Corners to run the 4-3 allready

Dqwell Jackson would makea fine OLB We can draft a LB or even bring a guy over in FA to be our MLB....and I think we would be set...

It seems like teams that run the 4-3 win more games...look at the Giants, the Bucs, etc...those teams been good for years

I like the 4-3 because it is a "patient" Defense...it relies on your DL to be your primary pass rush...with a LB or safety sent sometimes with a mix of a corner every now and then...

the 3-4 has holes because you must "always" blitz atlast 2 guys to get pressure because you only have 3 DL men...the 4-3 gives more flexibilitity and the 4-3 is better against the deep ball....

the only way we should stick to the 3-4 is if we get Cowher or Marty, otherwise, scrap it

nolan ran a pretty good 3-4. i expect him to be in dalls next year tho. something about the suit...

Wow....just wow. We don't have the coach to run the 3-4? You do realize that the great Belechik you are touting as one of the only ones that can run it has stated that RAC was the one in charge of the defense and made the calls, right? Funny how Belechik disagrees with you.

Yeah, let's hire Marty back. After all, he has all those Super Bowl appea.....errr, ummm, well...