DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum GM plant's closing like death knell in Dayton

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/ohio.plant.closing/index.html

GM plant's closing like death knell in Dayton

MORAINE, Ohio (CNN) -- The folks working at Jamestown Industries' Moraine Plant 2 near Dayton, Ohio, have the weary, haunted look of terminally ill patients, only it's their livelihoods that are about to die.

Jamestown Moraine warehouses prepare and deliver parts to the General Motors Moraine Assembly truck plant. When the GM plant closes for good on December 23, so will Jamestown Moraine. Sixty-four people will lose their jobs at the supplier, the last of a workforce that once numbered 200.

GM Moraine Assembly once employed about 5,000 people, churning out Chevrolet Trailblazer, GMC Envoy and even Saab SUVs. About 1,000 will clock out for the last time next month.

Thousands more worked for small suppliers in the Dayton area for whom GM was the only customer.

"I've got the house I've got to pay for. I've got the car payment, I've got clothes and I've got to give the dog a little food -- and you throw in kids? It's bad for everybody," said Tony Murphy, a foreman who operates a forklift at Jamestown Moraine.

Murphy said he knows the pain goes well beyond his own family and even his own hometown.

"It's going to be a big ripple effect on everyone," he said, "because when they first closed the first two shifts down, it was devastating then, but this, right here, will seal the nail on the coffin.

"Not only is it going to affect where I work, it's going to affect retail. It's going to affect the mom-and-pop shops. It's even going to affect people all the way up in Michigan because they bring those parts that are sent over there to GM," he said.

Leaders of GM, as well as Ford and Chrysler, are lobbying Congress for $25 billion in assistance to stave off bankruptcy. Without federal help, they say, the pain of Moraine could be repeated across the country. iReport.com: Should Congress bail out the Big Three?

But even if Congress acts, Moraine is done two days before Christmas. GM announced its closure -- along with plants in Janesville, Wisconsin; Oshawa, Ontario; and Toluca, Mexico -- in June.

Anticipating unemployment, Kevin Howard, Murphy's co-worker, said he's cutting his own hair, skipping dental checkups, brown-bagging leftovers for lunch and wearing $5 T-shirts instead of sturdier work clothes. He said he used to wear a gold earring, but he sold it to raise cash.

Unemployment compensation is about 50 percent less than workers' regular pay, and Howard said COBRA health insurance is beyond his means.

"All it takes is about two weeks falling behind, and I'm in debt. And a month -- I'm really in debt," said Howard, 55, whose children, grandchildren and mother depend on his soon-to-disappear income. "I'm a diabetic. I don't know where I'm going to get my medicine after this."

Moraine is the only GM plant in the United States represented by a union other than the United Auto Workers. Its legacy as a former Frigidaire appliance factory puts its workers, along with its suppliers' workers, in an electrical union, the IUE-CWA.

GM employees received buyouts of as much as $140,000, but suppliers' employees get no compensation when they're cut loose, said Kaine Goodwin, the business manager for IUE Local 755 in Dayton.

"We get no severance pay, and they're not going to bail us out," said Howard, his voice rising and eyes widening. "Somebody should bail us out. We're the ones suffering. ... We don't have a dime. We're gone. Goodbye."

Goodwin sought to discount any suggestions of inter-union rivalry or intrigue.

"It doesn't matter if you're IUE-CWA or not, the economy's going down, jobs are going away, the UAW is losing a lot of jobs as well at this timeframe. So it's bad for all unions as far as jobs in this area right now," he said.

"The jobs are going overseas, they're going to India," Goodwin added. "It used to be Mexico we would talk about losing our jobs to, but we're no longer losing them there. We're losing them to India, we're losing them to China, and by the handfuls. They're going out every day, and every time that [production] leaves, that's just less jobs available here."

Howard was more direct in his assessment.

"We want cars built here in America, built by Americans," he declared.

Minechelle Washington came to Dayton from GM's hometown Detroit, Michigan, eight years ago to work at the Moraine plant.

"We think crime is bad now? It's going to get worse if there's no jobs here, even for younger people," she said. "I can't even say what the future will be for our kids behind this company and any other company that has closed in the last year, and it's getting awful."

Washington's 27-year-old son was laid off from his job in February and still hasn't found work. Her 22-year-old daughter couldn't afford to stay in college and moved back in with Washington.

Washington's eyes became misty when she mentioned that her 9-year-old daughter's birthday is coming up, and the plant is closing during the holidays.

"The cake they gave the people on second shift said, 'Good Luck and Goodbye,'" she said, shaking her head. "We're losing our jobs two days before Christmas. That's bad."

Murphy compared Dayton to Flint, Michigan, the subject of Michael Moore's scathing 1989 film, "Roger and Me."

"Flint was a thriving town before GM pulled out of there, and when GM pulled out, Flint died. Same thing is going to happen to Dayton," Murphy said. "It makes me feel kind of sad, because as I was growing up, Dayton and the surrounding communities were thriving. ... I've been here 53 years, and I never thought I would see this city completely die like it is now, but it's just about there." Watch automakers plead to lawmakers for assistance »

"The American dream has backfired on everybody," Murphy said.

For many, the grief over losing a job is short-lived as they try to search for new jobs. Murphy said the job search is really going to be a struggle.

As of September, the unemployment rate in the Dayton area was 7.5 percent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"It's not going to be easy for anybody. I've put in some applications, but when you've got so many people laid off in Moraine and the city of Dayton [as a whole], there's so many people out there trying to find jobs that it's really going to be hard," Murphy said. "Anybody that's my age or older, anybody that loses their job, especially in this economy right now, should be scared."

Howard is also not optimistic about his job prospects.

"I'll probably end up frying burgers somewhere," he said. "You can't cry about it. You just have to hold your head up until the end."

Mark Smith, Howard's co-worker and Army veteran, said he's applied to work with military contractor KBR in Afghanistan.

"I pray every day that that company will call me and say, 'Come on out of there,'" he said.

Murphy said he relies on his faith to keep his spirits up.

"You pray. That's what you do," Murphy said. "I do believe in the man upstairs. That's where I get my support, from believing in him. They say through prayer, anything can be done. I believe it."

The end of these plants has been slowly happening around this area for years, this is only the final number of people still left in this plant. It's hurt the Dayton economy over the years, no doubt. But, a death knell? That's a little dramatic. This has been expected for years and everybody knew it was coming.

Dayton has been struggling economically for quite some time now. The suburbs surrounding the Dayton are doing quite well, however.

You think this is bad,, if GM, Ford and Chrysler don't receive the assistence that seek, it's gonna get a whole lot worse....

No, it'll just take a little longer for them to go out of business and cost hard working people more to prolong the agony.

It's going to get worse REGARDLESS of whether they get assistance. To think otherwise is folly.

Look at china currently, japan, heck, all of europe. If they are not currently in a recession, they will be soon. This is bigger than AIG, or american banks, or the american auto industry. Our gov't. bailing out people will do nothing but postpone - for a short term - the pain that is coming. Plus, it puts an added debt load on our gov't., which for too long has tried to be too much to too many.

Here is our bed. Do we lay in it tonight? Or do we wait a couple of nights?

Toyota workers in the USA average $35 a hour

The Big Three auto workers average is $78 a hour.

High flying Auto Corp. Exec !

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10744205&ch=4226713&src=news

With the amount of money a CEO makes per hour, it would be FAR more expensive to fly commercial when you factor in trudging through the airport, waiting for the plane, etc. They'll get more work done on the corporate jet too.

The companies already own the planes and employ the pilots full time so it is only the cost of fuel, which isn't cheap, of course. Every major company, and some not so major, have planes so they might as well use them.

That is a story out of nothing. I'm not saying I think they deserve a bailout, but to call travel in a corporate jet a reason to not get one is silly.

anyone see "who killed the electric car"?

I havent but ive been meaning to.

Wow : Based on your comments I not only live in Latin America ( most of the year ) ; I live on a different planet today ... And I'm making fun of myself !

... I know Doctors that don't make that kind of dough down here !

... " The Big Three auto workers average is $78 a hour .. "

I'm not saying you live on another planet, I just don't see the big deal of executives taking a corporate jet. My hunch is, though I do not know, that there were others on the plane besides the CEO. I've flown on many corporate jets, and typically the break even point between commercial and private planes is 6 passengers, depending on the plane. I just don't see it as a big deal, that's all. And I'm the last person that is for ANY type of bailout to ANY company.

.. " CD " I was poking fun at myself

... Seems to me the Corporate Jet should have been sold long before now ! .. As a small Biz owner I have no sympathy for these folks .. Or the Unions as far as that be ..

Heck yeak it wasn't just the CEO. You KNOW each one had an entire legal staff with them so they would know what
TO say and what NOT to say.

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Toyota workers in the USA average $35 a hour

The Big Three auto workers average is $78 a hour.

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I heard that on the news last night and was amazed... these two hourly rates are fully loaded I might add..

Meaning that it's all inclusive. That's the total cost per hour when you look at the actual labor dollar paid to the worker, MPT&I, Facility/building costs such as gas, electric and human cost such as benefits for current workers.. (and a bunch more)

I"m not sure if in the case of the US automakers if those hourly numbers reflect the legacy costs they all have like benefits for retirees and pensions etc. I think it might, but not sure.

And people wonder why the US auto industry is in the tank... and they constantly blame management.. well, yeah, but it's not the management that is in place today.. it's the managment that crumbled to the long term demands of the unions. And that happened years and years ago.

These managers today are simply living with the result. when you think of it in those terms, they do an amazing job.

That's why I'm for loaning them money.. if we do it right, the union has to agree to things changing to look more like a toyota, Honda or nissan business model.

I'm not sure, but I think folks that work for Honda down in Raymond and Marysville Ohio get pretty decent benefits and company sponsored 401(k), paid vacations, paid holidays etc..

And I don't think I've ever heard too many Honda employees crying the blues like you hear the union guys doing that work for the Big Three..

Oh yeah, I'm for loaning the money to them, ,but the only way I'd do it is if the union changed thier ways to reflect the new realities of this economy.

There was a time when unions were required. Safety, living wages, healthcare were big issues that were largely ignored by industry until unions were formed.. but since then, the mind set has changed considerably.. as well as government regulations on things like safety...

I guess I don't understand the need for a union anymore..

If I'm a Congressman or Senator ..... I'm asking what will be given at each level to help bring costs in line so that this "loan" isn't a bandaid that stops the worst of the bleeding for a year or so ..... then causes a hemorage when the loan comes due for repayment.

What does the CEO give up?

What does the COO give up?

What does the CFO give up?

What do the office personnel give up?

What do the union personnel give up?

Unless there are concessions at all levels .... I say "Sorry, but we can't help you, because a loan is only delaying the inevitable".

The "Big 3" are running an unsustainable business model at the present time. Throwing a little money at it in the form of a loan isn't going to suddenly make it a profitable and successful business.

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They'd NEVER walk to the bargining table with, "Sure, let's start the cuts!"

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Things are different today than at any other time that these workers have been alive.. We haven't had this severe a situation since the great depression.. so none of these Autoworkers in the union today even have a clue. Which is what I would count on.

The union leadership won't want to budge,, you are correct about that.

But I promise you, if someone gets to the rank and file,, they will budge..

When someone gets to them and explains that the ride is over,, the change needs made.. They'll get the message.

And they will forever begrudge anything they have to give back today to even have a tomorrow.

If not, then I guess we'll have to do it the hard way.. Let the Big Three file for Bankruptcy, let them go out and lay everyone off for about a month or more,, then start the process of rehiring them without the unions.

I agree 100%. EVERYONE has to make concessions. Heck, if I'm the CEO I tell them I'm not paying myself until the ship is righted and I have my top leadership agree to the same. These guys have enough money to do that. This would show how dire the situation is and that they are willing to make sacrifices as well. If I recall, some of the airline CEO's did this too.

At one of my current clients, the new CEO gave his first year of pay up to give out as bonuses to the top "worker bees" in the field. Not a ton of money to divide up, but still a nice gesture.

And that is what would happen.

Impala's will still be made...just without workers making 80k in wage and benefit packages. Lot's of more skilled labor makes way less than that.


Maybe more like 50k.


Union auto workers are the most grossly overpaid workers in the world.

I am not against people making money, but at some point it just isn't worth it....and we are at that point.


Just start over with a business plan that works for the consumer, labor and management.

Auto plants have opened all over Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, South Carolina..and none of them are union shops....and all those folks make a decent wage and have decent benefits......BMW, Mercedes,Saturn, Honda, VW, Nissan...time for places like Lordstown to compete or close.

Peen, as you well know - this fight is not about the big 3. This fight is the union fighting for its survival. When the union became a big business, it lost all its sense.

I know several union stewards. And what do they do? Travel to union meetings once a month or so (travel compliments of the union). Other than that? Oh, they have an office, and they "fight" for union rights - they're "fighting" for the guys and gals on the floor. According to the stewards themselves.

They are full time, get all the benefits, etc. And this is at the GM Powertrain plant in nearby Defiance Ohio.

What is it really? A waste of money. Like I said, when the union became full time work (working for the union, not working on the floor for the car company - I mean the people who's job is nothing but union business) it became too big, and the benefits were too good. The union won't go without a fight.

No disagreement....unions are trying to call in some chips...too bad there are no chips to call....they are done.

...anybody want to buy a used vette? '00 with under 25k miles.

JUST kidding.
It's sad what's happening...but I'll be honest, as much as I'm a chevy guy, they haven't had anything in their lineup that I'd want to own for years ('cept the vette or the Camaro in my earlier days). I'm talking daily driver family car that's good on gas, comfortable, etc.

If they had something comparable to the Prius they'd have been working their asses off just to meet demand...but they weren't forward thinking enough.

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Impala's will still be made...just without workers making 80k in wage and benefit packages. Lot's of more skilled labor makes way less than that.

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I do believe that 80k is a gross exaggeration there Peen..

But your point is taken.. 35.00 per hour average is what Toyota is running while the US Auto Industry is running 78.00 per hour average..

That's a big giant sized disadvantage for the US automakers.. A bed they made by not fighting harder against the unions. And the Unions are just as at fault for looking at the US Automakers as bottomless cash cows...

Neither had much of an eye towards the future,, but when they saw the VW's and Datsuns and Toyotas coming into the country, it should have been a wake up call.. It wasn't. They all had blinders on and were dumber than a box of rocks.

But that's yesterday.. can't do a damn thing about it.

What we need now is a new approach. One that takes a more international or global look at what needs done.

I think the managment of the Big Three are already thinkig that way.. will the Union learn? There is the question..

Simply put, we are, at this moment, faced with a very good opportunity to erase the bad and usher in the good.

The US automakers have tackled one of the biggest problems and differences between them and the foreign automakers... QUALITY... we aren't there yet, but the gap isn't as wide as it was just a few years ago.. they've made strides.. big strides towards competitiveness.. at least on that level.

Now, they have to strive for a more level playing field in terms of what it costs to build a car.

This is an opportunity of a lifetime.. Never before has the Auto industry had such an imposing reason to reinvent itself. One hell of an opportunity to fix what ails it.

So, if the unions, management, stockholders and Admin staff can agree to do whatever it takes, then they have a chance and we as a nation should back that play...

It's like Obama was saying in that interview on 60 minutes..." what does a sustainable auto industry look like"? That's what we have to define,, Sustainability.

Otherwise, like so many on here, I'd have to say it's throwing good money after bad...

Through all of this, we have to remember, what we face today isn't a Auto Industry Crisis... That's just a symptom... What we really have is a financial market meltdown.. and that leads to job losses... that leads to uncertainty..

That of course causes a credit crunch..

So, job losses+ uncertainty+credit crunch= few that can are buying cars... those on the fringe, can't get credit.

Please note, that with all the hoopla about the US carmakers,, the foriegn makers are suffering major drops in sales also... They are also having a tough time selling thier cars...

So it's NOT a car problem.. it's a financial one. Don't blame everything on GM, Ford and Chrysler or the auto industry as a whole...

I'll vouch for that. My brother's last year at Chrysler, he made 65k before benefits working on the line.

While they ask our government for money, GM is pouring money into Brazil. Do you still want to bail them out?

web page

GM to invest 1 bln dollars in Brazil


BRAZILIA, Nov. 18 (Xinhua) -- The General Motors Corporation (GM) has decided to invest 1 billion U.S. dollars in Brazil to expand business there, local media reported Tuesday.

The investment was part of a U.S. bailout package and would be used to upgrade car production lines before 2012, said Djame Adila, a GM's official in charge of the markets in Brazil and other member-countries of the South American Common Market which also groups Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela.

Although the company has laid off employees in some other countries in face of the current U.S. financial crisis, it still needs time to valuate the Brazilian market before making any decision, said Adila, adding that a recent announcement of a 3.5-billion-dollar loan plan to automakers by the Brazilian government should boost the car sales in the Brazilian market.

"To withdraw capital from an expanding market is obviously illogical. What we should do is to protect investment to the emerging markets," Adila said.

The company's car sale at the Brazilian market is expected to reach 2.9 million units in 2009, while that for this year is to reach 2.85 million, up 15 percent from last year.

the biggest problem i see, is the loss of jobs....maybe they make too much...maybe those numbers are skewed....who exactly knows..

but if they fall...and it looks like they will with or without the bailout....it will put upwards of 300000 people out of work...

there are very few jobs out there and none at that price range at all....not even with college imo....

so thats 300,000 people that might not be able to pay for there mortgage...causing more defaults...maxing out credit cards, doing whatever to make ends meet....

it might need to happen....but it would be better to keep it going, and attempt to fix it...

i still think its the pensions, and retiree's are what hurts them the most...what do you do, just tell those people no more?


all those foreign car companies use 401k's they won't have that problem when workers retire... our car companies do have that problem, and dang if i know how to fix it...

sure hate to see all the workers and retiree's get the shaft....

and i can see why those unions fight...cause nobody wants to work for less...you get used to what you make....


i'm a firefighter, and the way this country is going is scaring the heck out of me....no jobs, means no taxes...which means no job for me too...

80K is about average right now, and thats just the yearly pay. That doesn't include bene's