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Just a few days ago I heard a story on the news about a business man being denied the right to use the name explorer for a product in Saudi Arabia. The reason? the X in explorer was obviously a crooked Christian cross.
You sure it was because X in a crooked Christian cross? Or perhaps it could have been because the name "Explorer" is a registered name by Ford; a vehicle which is abundanlty available in Saudi Arabia? A registered name cannot obviously be used by someone else....
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Sorry bubba
In my original post I wrote that you were sensible. How wrong was I. Bubba, huh? Very sensible Peen.
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Right....exactly where I want to go. If you want to go there, go for it.
It's too bad that you would say that. I suppose you are content at being ignorant. If that suits you, then fine with me. I made the comment about visiting these countries, because people would realize how the majority of Muslims really are towards treating people from the West who live and work in these countries. And they would realize that they are generally very welcoming and kind to people from the West.
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but until you understand the right and left wings of your faith, which is most, is making you look bad, there is nothing I can do to help you.
That goes back to the problem I made about people stereotyping. If all non-Americans linked all Americans with the administration of USA, then they would percieve you all in very poor manner. This shouldn't be done; but then again, stereotyping is a major problem in this world.
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Just a few days ago I heard a story on the news about a business man being denied the right to use the name explorer for a product in Saudi Arabia. The reason? the X in explorer was obviously a crooked Christian cross.
You sure it was because X in a crooked Christian cross? Or perhaps it could have been because the name "Explorer" is a registered name by Ford; a vehicle which is abundanlty available in Saudi Arabia? A registered name cannot obviously be used by someone else....
Nope:
Article
Maybe we should ban the letter C...it looks a bit like a crescent 
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DC - educated and reasonable like yourself cannot link perception with reality. People who are reasonable and educated should attempt to decipher between the two, and then make a valid judgement. Quote:
As soon as the good people of Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, and UAE begin leading the fight to denounce and stomp out terrorism instead of begrudgingly participating in a half-hearted way.... then and only then will that perception have a chance to change.
I agree. But this is taking place. And continues to take place. In the past on this message board, I have sighted numerous examples of events and forums where such denouncement has taken place.
And I have also explained that such denouncement doesn't make the 'news', simply because it is considered 'boring' news. What is more newsworthy? A Muslim denouncing terrorism? Or, an idiot saying that all Americans should be killed?
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I'd suggest respectfully, IDP, that you invite all the nut job Imams/clerics who are prostituting the good verses of the Koran to go to Saudi,UAE,Qutar etc...and observe how the true Muslims honor the words of Mohammed.
To assume that these phony religious leaders who preach violent Jihad against Westerners and infidels throughout the world are not the loudest voice of Islam in the world today is equivalent to stating that the division between Shiia and Sunni is as a simple family argument!
Until the good and decent living typical Muslim man or woman begins to shut down these thousands of extremists and their nutty clerics ..... I am afraid there will soon be scores of thousands of dead innocent Muslims.
That Doomsday Clock is not getting close to midnight simply because of N. Korea...more accurately... fanatical Islamic murderers are itching to kill innocents wherever they are found.....just listen to the clerics. Trust me that while USA is hardly blameless in her actions when the nukes are loaded to go the nutty Islamist nations and terrorists will have few allies. BOOM!!!
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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you invite all the nut job Imams/clerics who are prostituting the good verses of the Koran to go to Saudi,UAE,Qutar etc...and observe how the true Muslims honor the words of Mohammed.
Ralphie, some of these clerics perhaps already reside in these countries. You know what I resign to when I see innocent Muslims and other innocent people being killed in the world? I resign to the belief that since there is nothing I can do, I can only pray for them, and get a little peace of mind from the notion that the killers will get their justice in the Hereafter.
Similary, these clerics who preach incorrect and construed information about the religion and urge people to kill the innocent - will, too, get their justice in the Hereafter.
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Until the good and decent living typical Muslim man or woman begins to shut down these thousands of extremists and their nutty clerics .....
But this is happening, though. People and groups are being hunted down in the Middle East, Asia, and Europe.
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Well IDP I realize that you are sincere in your ideas. I respect that and hope your best wishes come true.
Conversely, as you accept that the perpetrators will get their due in the hereafter, I believe that we need to minimize their damage on earth by whatever means possible. If you are blaming the USA administration for the deaths of these innocents you need to think again.
"Whatever you do to the least of my bretheran...so you do unto Me!"
Killing murderers is a tough job and must be done as best it can be...to blame the soldiers for tracking down terrorists who HIDE WITH CIVILIANS is easy but wrong.
Maybe you can enlighten me as to why Muslims in general are sooo upset with non Muslim living in the Middle East? Have the non Muslims taken unfair advantage of the poorer Muslims and more than the ultra rich and powerful Clerics,Shieks and Warlords have???
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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DC - educated and reasonable like yourself cannot link perception with reality. People who are reasonable and educated should attempt to decipher between the two, and then make a valid judgement.
I have made my judgement and I think it's fairly valid... but we, the educated and reasonable, cannot UNlink perception from reality. We can work to change the reality all day long but until we change the perception, nothing will change.
The reality always was that black people in this country were, for the most part, decent, hardworking, capable people... but until they were given the chance to assimilate into society and prove it, the perception was much different.. So until the Muslim/Islamists find their own Martin Luther King who has the charisma to rally the masses of Islamists, the courage to step out on his own, and the articulation to make his message heard.... thus changing the hearts and minds of the west, the perception will be what the perception is....
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I agree. But this is taking place. And continues to take place. In the past on this message board, I have sighted numerous examples of events and forums where such denouncement has taken place.
And I have also explained that such denouncement doesn't make the 'news', simply because it is considered 'boring' news. What is more newsworthy? A Muslim denouncing terrorism? Or, an idiot saying that all Americans should be killed?
As I said, until the denouncement is deafeningly loud, until Muslim terrorists don't even feel comfortable around other Muslims or hidden deep in Muslim nations, until we see large scale peace demonstations throughout the Muslim community... we must deal with the perception.
IDP, I am not Muslim. I do not live among many Muslims. I do not go to Mosques. I do not have the resources to travel the Middle Eastern countries that you mentioned.... Thus I will never know the full "reality".... So while I am educated, reasonable, and peace-loving..... it is up to the Muslims to make my perception meet this reality that you talk about.
yebat' Putin
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The Explorer is a very succesful vehicle in Saudi Arabia. It is readily available all over the country.
However, although the article is written by a person with a Muslim name, he clearly must be someone with a grudge against Islam and Saudi Arabia. Look at some of the nonsense he writes:
In a kingdom where Friday preachers routinely refer to Christians as pigs and infidel crusaders, even a twisted cross ranks as an abomination.
Yeah right, I have not been to one Friday sermon in Saudi Arabia where any of this is said. The word "pig" being uttered in a mosque is as absurd as this statement itself.
The Saudi commission has shaped life and death: declared jihad against Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan, banished women from public life
There are more women working in Saudi Arabia now, along side with men, than ever before. Banished women from public.... *L*. Perhaps this guy needs to visit Saudi Arabia as well.
Among the commission's deeds is the famed 1974 fatwa — issued by its blind leader at the time, Sheik Abdul Aziz Ben Baz — which declared that the Earth was flat and immobile. In a book issued by the Islamic University of Medina, the sheik argued: "If the earth is rotating, as they claim, the countries, the mountains, the trees, the rivers, and the oceans will have no bottom."
Okay.....what has an idiot comment made from some man got anything to do with this?
Movie theaters are banned, as are sculptures, paintings, and music, and the mixing of sexes in public.
*L*.... 75% of the CDs I own were purchased from music shops in Saudi Arabia. Drive down the corniche in Jeddah and you will numerous sculptures on the road. There are 3 major stores I can think of from the top of my head that sell paintings. Visit any mall in Saudi Arabia and you will see the mixing of sexes. I wonder if this guy was exiled from Saudi Arabia, *L*.
The commission really has it in for women. They must don the all-enveloping veil, or niqab, in public; they cannot drive themselves nor ride anywhere without a male guardian, and they cannot travel alone domestically or abroad.
This has got to be incorrect journalism at its best. Nope, the veil is not required in public. Yes, an Abaya (a cloth that is worn to cover the body) and a head scarf is worn in public; many women don't wear the head scarf, either.
The traveling summarizes just how clueless this guy is. Women can travel on their own. Some chose to have a male escort (a husband or a brother) and some don't - its up to them.
It is so sad. Such journalism can so easily provide so much wrong knowledge to so many people who have not had the opportunity to visit the place. There are idiots in Saudi Arabia, maybe a lot of them, but there are idiots in every country of the world. But it at least be truthful in what is being said.
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Well IDP I realize that you are sincere in your ideas. I respect that and hope your best wishes come true.
Thank you my friend.
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If you are blaming the USA administration for the deaths of these innocents you need to think again.
Whoa.....no, I didn't mean this at all. Don't get me wrong, please. What I meant to say was that people around the world dislike the US administration for various reasons. This dislike, however, shouldn't make them dislike the American people in general.
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Maybe you can enlighten me as to why Muslims in general are sooo upset with non Muslim living in the Middle East?
Huh? You lost me again. I was trying to say the oppoiste. I was saying that Muslims treat people from the West who are living in the Middle East generally in a very good manner.
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What I meant to say was that people around the world dislike the US administration for various reasons.
What are those reasons?
yebat' Putin
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So until the Muslim/Islamists find their own Martin Luther King who has the charisma to rally the masses of Islamists, the courage to step out on his own, and the articulation to make his message heard.... thus changing the hearts and minds of the west, the perception will be what the perception is....
DC - there are a billion Muslims in this world. There is already two messages out there that they should follow: the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Mohammad. They follow these messages properly, then they will be good people.
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IDP, I am not Muslim. I do not live among many Muslims. I do not go to Mosques. I do not have the resources to travel the Middle Eastern countries that you mentioned.... Thus I will never know the full "reality".... So while I am educated, reasonable, and peace-loving..... it is up to the Muslims to make my perception meet this reality that you talk about.
It's unfortunate that you cannot visit these places. I promise any wrong perception you have will totally change. In order to change your perceptions please try to research about what really Islam teaches. If you would like I tell of you some websites to read.
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Undeterred support for Israel, for one.
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And why shouldn't we support Isreal ?
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And why shouldn't we support Isreal ?
My point is not about whether or not you should support Israel.
My point was that since many people are against the US administration's support of Israel, they shouldn't take this as an excuse to dislike all Americans.
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So until the Muslim/Islamists find their own Martin Luther King who has the charisma to rally the masses of Islamists, the courage to step out on his own, and the articulation to make his message heard.... thus changing the hearts and minds of the west, the perception will be what the perception is....
DC - there are a billion Muslims in this world. There is already two messages out there that they should follow: the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Mohammad. They follow these messages properly, then they will be good people.
See you are still not dealing with perception and reality.... those who blow up people think they ARE following these messages properly. This is what the west sees, a Muslim blows up 20 innocent people, then quotes the Koran to justify it.... 95% of the non-Muslims in the world are not going to read the Koran and the Prophet Mohammad is not going on the news to deliver a message of peace. Somebody else has to do it. Jesus Christ no longer walks the earth to preach his message so Christianity is judged based on those of us who claim to follow it.... Often we are unfairly judged because of a select few. I fully realize that is where Islam finds itself today.... but I can't change it. Every religion has it's strays who do bad things in the name of their religion... but as far as I know, the Muslim religion is the only one in the world today where those strays are killing thousands and thousands of innocent people in the name of their religion..... The other 5 billion people on the planet could all read the Koran tomorrow, and that fact isn't going to change.
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In order to change your perceptions please try to research about what really Islam teaches.
Let me tell you something and I hope this doesn't come across as cold or callous... I don't really care what Islam teaches. What I care about is what those who follow Islam do on this tiny planet that we share.... and what they DO is plot and plan and blow people up. The Christians aren't doing it, the Hindu's aren't, the Buddhists aren't, the Sikhs aren't, the Pagans aren't, the Jews aren't...... yea, the Jews are figting with the Palestinians but the Jews aren't blowing up their own people, they're not attacking Muslims in Syria and Iran.... Their fight is localized and is between governments, not religions, no matter how central religion may be to that fight.
yebat' Putin
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Bubba, huh? Very sensible Peen.
You need understand bubba is a term used in the south...even a real name....so while you are talking about sterotypes, don't think that term to mean anything negative.
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It's too bad that you would say that. I suppose you are content at being ignorant.
Well....I am content for the most part. Ignorant....I guess some people might think so.
Look...it isn't the religion. It is the people who hide behind the religion...and those people are numerous and have a political agenda or a desire to continue some Holy War that dates back 1500 years.
The problem as I see it is people with that slant on their thinking have come to shape the vast majority of the Muslim world. I see it no differently that the Christian crackpots who think blowing up abortion clinics and shooting the doctors is somehow in the name of God...it isn't and the vast majority of Christians know that isn't the way to carry on affairs.
So let me ask you this since you seem to think you have the answers....and maybe you do.
What would it take to keep Muslim militants from attacking Christians and Jews because that is the problem as I see it. If they weren't hell-bent on pretty much eliminating those groups, I don't think we would have the problems we now have.
All religions want to spread their word, no question, but it seems to me much of the Muslim world is still caught up in Crusader tactics and content with 7th century living.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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More... http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/17/warwithin.amanpour/index.html Amanpour: Brit radicals shock me Editor's note: In our Behind the Scenes series, CNN correspondents share their experiences covering the news and analyze the stories behind events. Christiane Amanpour describes the people she met while making "The War Within." LONDON, England (CNN) -- When we reported the unprecedented suicide bombings of the London underground trains and buses in 2005, we were shocked beyond words that young British Muslims, born and bred here, would go to that extreme. We could not understand what would drive them to kill themselves and their fellow citizens. And so we started to investigate what we call "The War Within." What struck us most was how deeply the Iraq war has radicalized today's generation of young Muslims in Britain. Whether extreme or mainstream, they are angry about the war, angry that their country so devotedly follows U.S. foreign policy, angry at what they see as a worldwide war against Muslims and Islam. A man who runs a youth center in a London neighborhood with a large Muslim population said the message of extremism preys on many kids who see no way out of their ethnic ghettos. Those youth, he said, have always had vices -- street crime, drugs, car thefts. "But then now you've got another threat," Hanif Qadir told me. "The new threat is radicalism. It's a cause. Every young man wants a cause." We knew much of the Islamic world feels like this, but we were surprised at the extent of these feelings in Britain. (Audio slide show: Preying on young British Muslims) The UK was rocked by the attacks of July 7, 2005 and the attempted attacks that failed two weeks later. Since then, Britons have many questions about the role of the Muslim community here. In our investigation, we found shocking evidence of the bigotry, intolerance and hatred preached by some Muslim fundamentalists in the UK. We met men like Anjem Choudary of the now-banned Al-Mahajiroon extremist group, who denounces democracy and predicts Britain will be ruled by Sharia, Islamic law. He publicly distances himself from suicide bombings here in the UK, mindful of Britain's tough new anti-terrorism laws, yet we filmed him openly condoning violent Jihad abroad. "I happen to be in an ideological and political war," Choudary said. "My brothers in al Qaeda and other Mujahedeen are involved in a military campaign." (Watch a call for Islamic law in Britain Video) And this week, a report in the London Sunday Times says Choudary has been using a false name on a password-protected Web site to incite Muslims to go to Somalia to wage holy war. Some mosques in Britain, while publicly agreeing to cross-cultural tolerance, in fact sometimes host preachers from both Britain and abroad who rail with hatred against "kafirs" (infidels), against homosexuals, against democracy and even against women. This hate-speech and the attempt by extremists to recruit young disaffected Muslims on London's deprived streets and even on university campuses is beginning to motivate the "other voices of Islam" to try to seize back their religion, which they say has been hijacked. (Watch moderate Muslims fight back Video) Extremists and radicals are very adept at playing the media's game. Even though they are a minority, a small number of them can gather on a corner, hold a protest or demonstration and get a massive amount of media attention and air time. That's because today's mostly tabloid media culture in the UK has sensationalized the "Muslim issue" and focuses only on the extremists, rarely finding the facts, context and texture beneath the surface. We found a deep sense of Islamophobia on the rise here in Britain and across Europe. The European Monitoring Center, which tracks religious and ethnic bias, says Muslims regularly face abuse, threats, attacks and misunderstanding. And as we discovered talking to a cross section of Muslims around Britain, many of Europe's 13 million Muslims said that since 9/11 they have been made to feel like terrorists. More than ever they feel like second-class citizens in their own countries. There are incredibly brave Muslims who've been forced to become unofficial activists for tolerance and integration. In Walthamstow -- where two dozen young Muslim men were arrested last summer for allegedly plotting to blow up U.S.-bound planes with liquid explosives -- Qadir, the youth worker, has reached out to teenagers. His youth center now tries to lead the disaffected and alienated along a different path, urging them to watch out for extremist preachers in their mosques and arranging pool tournaments with the beat cops as one way to forge a closer community bond. In Birmingham, home to Britain's second-largest Muslim community, a Muslim artist nicknamed "Aerosol Arabic" is trying to be a role model to students and the angry young people in his community. Along with a priest he is doing cross-cultural art projects that build a sense of acceptance and togetherness. While some Muslim women in the UK are feeling the intense pressure of a chorus of ministerial calls to remove their niqabs, a veil that covers most of the face, we meet one Muslim woman, a comedian, who is trying to promote tolerance through a unique brand of comedy-club humor. As a small band of Muslim extremists try to promote their agenda at a campus debate at prestigious Trinity College, we traveled to Ireland to hear mainstream Muslims try to win back the public podium. One young Muslim calls the violence and intolerance some extremists promote a mental illness, not an ideology. While Britain's Scotland Yard and MI5 intelligence service regularly warn of Islamist cells plotting violence -- some 30 potential plots have been identified -- some Muslim preachers, activists and ordinary people are beginning to see that they have to take the responsibility of seizing back their religion from the small band of extremists who have hijacked it. Increasingly we found mainstream Muslims are realizing that they can no longer be quiet, but they have to stand up to have any hope of winning back the debate from the extremists who dominate it now. The question is whether they can form a critical mass of voices to finally drown out the growing ranks of extremists.
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See you are still not dealing with perception and reality.... those who blow up people think they ARE following these messages properly.
...and...
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What I care about is what those who follow Islam do on this tiny planet that we share.... and what they DO is plot and plan and blow people up.
One simple fact that you should know: in Islam committing suicide is considered one of the biggest sin. Blowing themselves up is committing suicide. Not only are these people going against Islamic teachings of denouncing the killing of innocent people, but they are also going against Islamic teachings of committing a grave sin of taken their own life away.
As for the Muslim world denoucning these acts - it is happening DC. It's obviously not getting the type of coverage in the USA as it should.
Try to read www.arabnews.com on a regular basis to try to get an insight of news from Saudi Arabia.
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The Christians aren't doing it, the Hindu's aren't, the Buddhists aren't, the Sikhs aren't, the Pagans aren't, the Jews aren't......
I can't speak for the other religions you mentioned, although I'm sure it is happening in some nations to some level, but I do know it happens in India - where Hindus have plotted against Muslims....and vice-versa perhaps.
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One simple fact that you should know: in Islam committing suicide is considered one of the biggest sin. Blowing themselves up is committing suicide. Not only are these people going against Islamic teachings of denouncing the killing of innocent people, but they are also going against Islamic teachings of committing a grave sin of taken their own life away.
So why are there madrassa's (spelling not sure of, but schools teaching to kill "infidels")?
Why are some Imams and clerics, etc, in charge of teaching this "un muslim" act? Why are they sending people to do something in the name of Islam, when it is wrong in the name of Islam?
I don't get it. If what you say is true, and I don't doubt it one bit, why is there not a HUGE uprising by TRUE muslims condemning these acts? If it is wrong according to the religion, why doesn't the religion rid itself of the nuts? (by rid, I mean speak out on a daily basis, demand t.v. time, to say "no, those were not muslims that did that"?
Why is it, if it is wrong in the religion to kill innocents, and yourself, that we don't even hear the muslims in THIS country denounce it? Why does it seem that the "vast majority" of peaceful muslims have nothing to say about the nuts? It seems to me, if doing what the extremists do is wrong according to the religion, then the "true" muslims would be extremely vocal about it. As it is, they let the nuts speak for them in their actions. What ARE we supposed to think?
Actions speak louder than words. (someone is funding these people, as well. And it's not just the nut jobs bringing the money.....)
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The problem as I see it is people with that slant on their thinking have come to shape the vast majority of the Muslim world.
...and...
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All religions want to spread their word, no question, but it seems to me much of the Muslim world is still caught up in Crusader tactics and content with 7th century living.
Nope, the vast majority of the Muslim world isn't shaped by this thinking. If it did, then with a population of 1 billion Muslims, I think we would have total anarchy.
The vast majority of Muslims don't spend time hating people or plotitng to kill people. The vast majority try to live their lives and try make a living to feed their families.
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What would it take to keep Muslim militants from attacking Christians and Jews because that is the problem as I see it. If they weren't hell-bent on pretty much eliminating those groups, I don't think we would have the problems we now have.
Good question? What would it take to stop Christian rapists raping women and children? What would it take Hindu murderers from murdering people?
My answer: firstly quit calling it Muslim militants, or Muslim terrorists. It felt bad when I wrote Christian rapist, right? Secondly, generalize all terrorists as just that: terrorist - regardless of whether they are Jewish, Muslims, Christians, or whoever. Thirdly, hunt down the terrorists and stop them - which is ongoing; recently didn't Pakistani government capture a terrorist faction in their country?
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Why are some Imams and clerics, etc, in charge of teaching this "un muslim" act? Why are they sending people to do something in the name of Islam, when it is wrong in the name of Islam?
The answer is simple: they are clearly doing something which is very wrong.
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I don't get it. If what you say is true, and I don't doubt it one bit, why is there not a HUGE uprising by TRUE muslims condemning these acts? If it is wrong according to the religion, why doesn't the religion rid itself of the nuts? (by rid, I mean speak out on a daily basis, demand t.v. time, to say "no, those were not muslims that did that"?
It is being condemned. You just don't hear about it because it's probably not news-worthy in USA. It's much more news-worthy to highlight events where people are pronouncing the death of innocent people.
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http://www.islam-democracy.org/terrorism_statement.aspAs American Muslims and scholars of Islam, we wish to restate our conviction that peace and justice constitute the basic principles of the Muslim faith. We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda. Usama bin Laden and al-Qaeda's actions are criminal, misguided and counter to the true teachings of Islam. We call on people of all faiths not to judge Islam by the actions of a few. We believe in justice and peace for both Israelis and Palestinians. We are convinced that security for Israel can only be achieved by justice for Palestinians. Today, a modicum of justice requires the establishment of an independent Palestinian state through the exercise of Palestinian self-determination. We believe that the continued occupation of Palestinian territories, and Israel's repeated disregard of international law, have made life in the occupied territories unbearable. We say most clearly, however, that the killing of innocent civilians, whether Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, is always wrong and is forbidden in Islamic law and ethics. Illegitimate means can never be justified by a desirable or noble goal. On this first anniversary of the tragedy of September 11, we call on all people of conscience to denounce violence and to work peacefully for the creation of a better world. We also urge our government leaders to work for peace, justice, liberty, and democracy around the globe. http://bedouina.typepad.com/doves_eye/2005/12/a_few_muslim_de.htmlMuslims Denounce Terrorism Unfortunately, a flame war/heated discussion has arisen on one of my email listservs regarding the question "where are the Muslims who denounce terror?" It's a spurious question. All you have to do is google Muslim Denunciations of Terror and you get about 115,000 links. Start here: North American Muslim Scholars Issue Edict (fatwa) Against Terrorism. Terrorism Repugnant To Islam: Muslim Summit Read Juan Cole's roundup of Muslim responses to Osama Ben Laden - an answer to a mendacious Thomas Friedman column. Muslim American Society Calls for End to Terror Muslims Against Terrorism - a website with information about Islam, discussions of prohibitions against suicide bombing and terrorism in Islam, and links to more info. Muslim blogosphere reacts to London bombings (2005) No to Terrorism features anti-terrorist photos and placards sent in by regular folks, most of them seemingly Arab and/or Muslim. I think this blog started after the London blasts, then picked up more entries after the triple bombing in Jordan recently. And so forth. Next time you hear somebody ask where the Muslim denunciations of terror are, send them these links.
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It felt bad when I wrote Christian rapist, right?
To be honest, no. But then I don't see it all the time or have reason to think part of that statement is true because in western culture, religious leaders generally aren't the leaders of the political process..
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Again, these denounciations probably don't make it to your part of the world simply because it's probably not considered news-worthy.
Sad, huh?
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religious leaders generally aren't the leaders of the political process..
The Religious Police have been made non-existant in many major cities in Saudi Arabia.
UAE, Oman, Qatar, and many other Arab countries have so much Western influence that you sometimes feel that you are not in an Arab country.
Not using force to stop America going to war against Iraq, even though the religious clerics in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf were vehemently against the war.
Therefore, no, Religious leaders and clerics aren't the leaders of the political process...
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http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.htmlTom Friedman is a Middle East expert who knows a lot about Islam. Why, then, does he keep saying misleading things? He wrote in his latest column, "To this day - to this day - no major Muslim cleric or religious body has ever issued a fatwa condemning Osama bin Laden." A "fatwa" is simply a considered opinion of a Muslim jurisconsult. Such opinions are numerous. First of all, almost all the major Shiite Grand Ayatollahs have condemned Bin Laden and al-Qaeda. You could say that is easy, since Shiites don't generally like Wahhabis. But they are the leaders of 120 million Muslims (some ten percent of the 1.2 billion). So that is one. Tracking these things down is time-consuming, but this should do: Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden. So then what about the Sunni world? The leading moral authority for Sunnis is the rector or Grand Imam of the al-Azhar Seminary/ University in Cairo, Egypt. Al-Azhar is perhaps the world's oldest continuous university and has been since the time of Saladin a major center of Sunni religious authority. The current incumbent is Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi. So what about Tantawi and Bin Laden? Grand Imam of Al-Azhar seminary, Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, condemns Osamah Bin Laden. And: The Grand Imam of al-Azhar Seminary, Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, condemns Osamah Bin Laden. What about Pakistan? Admittedly, it has some clerics who are fans of Bin Laden, or at least who would avoid condemning him. But the allegation Friedman is making is that no major cleric has condemned him. Try this: Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden. I don't personally care for Yusuf al-Qaradawi. He is an old-time Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood preacher who fled to Qatar and now has a perch at al-Jazeera. But he does have some virtues. He is enormously popular among Muslim fundamentalists. And, he absolutely despises Bin Laden and al-Qaeda. Al-Qaradawi has repeatedly condemned the latter. He even gave a fatwa that it was a duty of Muslims to fight alongside the US in Afghanistan against al-Qaeda! See also: Yusuf al-Qaradawi condemns al-Qaeda. There are also substantial Muslim communities in Europe with leaderships that have explicitly condemned Bin Laden. E.g.: Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden. There are on the order of 250,000 Muslims in Spain. High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden. The Russian Muslim community is about 20 million strong, or 15 percent of Russia's 143 million population, and is growing rapidly, so that in a century Russia may be 50 percent Muslim. So this is not a pro forma thing here. A good round-up on this sort of issue has been put up by al-Muhajabah. See also Charles Kurzman's page. Friedman also does refer to a major conference of Muslim clerics, thinkers and notables wound up just Wednesday that made a powerful statement about religious tolerance and condemned everything Osama Bin Laden stands for. But he seems oddly unaware of the significance of having Grand Ayatollah Sistani, Grand Imam of al-Azhar Seminary Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, and many other great Muslim authorities sign off on this epochal statement of Muslim ecumenism. The statement forbids one Muslim to declare another "not a Muslim" if the believer adheres to any of the mainstream legal rites of Sunnism and Shiism. The whole basis of al-Qaeda is to call the Muslim leaders of countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, as well as Shiites, "not Muslims." The statement also demands that engineers should please stop pretending to issue fatwas, which should be left to trained clerical jurisconsults. This para. is also a slam at Bin Laden. PS As for Friedman's main point, that Muslims haven't done a good job of fighting jihadi ideology and terrorism, it is bizarre. The Algerian government fought a virtual civil war to put down political Islam, in which over 100,000 persons died. The Egyptians jailed 20,000 or 30,000 radicals for thought crimes and killed 1500 in running street battles in the 1990s and early zeroes. Al-Qaeda can't easily strike in the Middle East precisely because Syria, Egypt, Algeria, etc. have their number and have undertaken massive actions against them. What does Friedman want? And, besides, he is wrong that this is only a Muslim problem. In the global age all problems are everybody's. That's part of flat world, too, Tom.
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I should perhaps save a copy of this entire thread so that I can easily pull out all the links which I've posted where Muslims around the world have denounced terrorism -  There is a lot of denoucement going around folks. And there is a lot of force also being used to stop terrorism. Instead of relying on your media, try to do a quick search about it. And if you really want to be fair, then approach your local media and question them as to why they haven't highlighted all denouncements that have been taking place.
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IDP,
I probably agree with you position a bit more than others but one thing that you will have to admit is that the moderate muslim community will have to stand up and let all people know that the radicals will not be the definition of Islam. Those radicals in those european countrys are just flame throwers but you and I both know that they would scream murder if they were deported back to the middle east or India/Pakistan. Moderate muslims unfortunately have the perception of being quiet when the radicals say or do anything. I will agree most US people do not understand/know that there are various sects/groups of people that follow Islam so grouping them all together lacks intelligence. But the moderates have to start standing up!!
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That's cool man. Sounds like a great place to live.
Me, I will just stick to Dixie thank-you.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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It's a spurious question. All you have to do is google Muslim Denunciations of Terror and you get about 115,000 links.
If you google anything you get 115,000 links
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but one thing that you will have to admit is that the moderate muslim community will have to stand up and let all people know that the radicals will not be the definition of Islam
But they are doing this, DogNDC.
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IDP,
Yes, as your earlier post shows, there are clerics in the middle east that cannot stand terrorism, Al Queda and Bin-laden. But, in those countrys where the radical clerics get on TV or even on Al-Jezzeera, there has got to be a rapid and clear response. Also, even here in the US, some of the muslim leaders have got to get out there and tell their side of things. Not just when a TV show depicts Muslims in some crazy fashion.
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My friend, you haven't read all the links I put up. They are doing this.
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My friend, you haven't read all the links I put up. They are doing this.
LOL... IDP, you are fighting the very definition of what I started out with in this debate. Perception verses reality. The reality may be that thousands of Muslim clerics are out there speaking adamently against terrorism, the perception is that we don't see it. Blame our media, blame our government, blame us for being America-centric.... blame whoever you want, but in the end, we will believe that which we see.
yebat' Putin
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I just googled "islam, killing infidels", kinda neat - the 3 or 4 I read.....
While the ones I read may not be representative of all of them (and no, I'm not going to read them all), it was interesting how the question was sidestepped.
Bottom line, should muslims kill "infidels"? Sad thing is, what I read was written by muslim "scholars". They all said no, don't kill infidels.....for this reason, that reason, and every other reason......then they ended with "unless"...or "but...."
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What would it take to stop Christian rapists raping women and children? What would it take Hindu murderers from murdering people?
The big difference here IDP is scope and organization. To the best of my knowledge there are no Christian groups plotting and planning, on a large scale, the rape of women and children..... and no Hindu groups meeting in the shadows to plan mass murders.
If we could get Muslims to the point where their "terrorism" was one nut job going off on his own to try to blow something up, I think that's really about all we can ask for..... there will always be whacked out individuals IDP... and they are not specific to any race or religion or nationality and there is very little you can do to track them...... Islamic extremists are organized, trained, funded, and plan things for the long term. That is what seperates them from other nut jobs of other religions.
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My answer: firstly quit calling it Muslim militants, or Muslim terrorists. It felt bad when I wrote Christian rapist, right? Secondly, generalize all terrorists as just that: terrorist - regardless of whether they are Jewish, Muslims, Christians, or whoever.
This is a politically correct oversimplification IDP. Raping a woman doesn't make you a terrorist, it makes you a criminal.... there is a difference. And I don't really want to dilute the word "terrorist" to mean - Anybody who does something bad.
yebat' Putin
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My answer: firstly quit calling it Muslim militants, or Muslim terrorists.
Why? They do their "work" in the name of their religion, so why not call it what it is?
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"...but one thing that you will have to admit is that the moderate muslim community will have to stand up and let all people know that the radicals will not be the definition of Islam"
The problem that we see IDP is that all these "moderates" need to be seen confronting the "radicals" in person. Yes, I mean in person...let them travel to Sadr City in Iraq and confront the heretics of Al Quaida. Martin Luther King marched in Alabama and Georgia to confront the Southern bigots back in the 1960s.
The problem is that there are not all that many Moderate Muslims willing to physically confront the radical Islamists who are prostituting the teachings of Islamic tradition. Why is that IDP??
Could it be that Muslims can find some passages in the Koran to justify any actions done in the name of Mohammed? It is bad enough to be beaten or killed,but it is worse when a religious crackpot can justify the acts by quoting scripture with impunity!
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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My answer: firstly quit calling it Muslim militants, or Muslim terrorists.
Why? They do their "work" in the name of their religion, so why not call it what it is?
When we spread democracy, we don't call it American democracy. 
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