DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The piling on of Crennel continues........

I can remember RAC's first season here...the team was awful, so performance wasn't a factor in the barometer, and he was afforded plenty of rookie mistakes...but boy, were there a lot.

Complete befuddlement with clock management...I believe he was something like 1-for-8 on challenges, and I can remember several occasions where it appeared he threw a red flag, only to have the refs come over and explain that it was a play he couldn't challenge.

As the team progressed, these mistakes did not. His clock management has never budged from atrocious. Last season I can remember several RAC headscratchers...but W's stifle questions.

However, I struggle to remember a single instance where I felt that RAC had made a shrewd move or did something to bring us a win, in the sense that it was his coaching that got us somewhere we shouldn't have been capable of getting. Now, certainly he has...I think it's unfair to paint us as winning only in spite of him (although I do deep down believe that)...but the guy just seems to plod through it all.

I really like the guy...I hope when we fire him it's a solemn day and people aren't too charged up with bitterness...but if he was an arrogant, gum-chomping jerk like Butch...we would've called for his head a long time ago.

Well if people are calling for RAC's head, then Savage has to go also! Savage cannot look at RAC like it was only his fault. Savage has not filled up the coffers with alot of talent. People like me are calling for Edwards to sit, even for atleast 2 series just to get his head screwed back on. BUT the problem is that we have NOTHING behind Edwards to put in! On D, people want Tucker to blitz, but that puts our DBs in trouble. The front 7 of our D only has Rogers, the rest are average or below at best. SO yes, RAC might get taken out this at the end of this year, but Savage should be gone also!

Ive been saying this all week. A change wont be made, during the season, because there isnt any assistants on the staff with the experiance or the resume to take over.

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Defensive end Shaun Smith admitted that the Cowher chants during the game were somewhat of a distraction.

"All the fans saying, 'Get rid of him,' I wish they could walk in [Crennel's] shoes and understand everything that's really going on and the severity of everything, because it's not his fault," said Smith.

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This to me speaks volumes. As much as I can't take his game management I am left with wondering how much influence Savage has in that.

It is my understanding that Savage picks the free agents, runs the drafts, chooses the 53 man roster and I wouldn't be surprised is dictating to Crennel who to play. "Play my picks, don't bench Braylon, play Quinn, play Kam."

Either there is more going on that RAC can't control and is coaching with one hand behind his back or Shaun is throwing words out there to back his coach.

I dunno, the more I think about this the more my brain turns to oatmeal

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Savage has not filled up the coffers with alot of talent...

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gotta disagree on this one NDC.


I think fans have memories which are just too short.

For a refresher, go to the official site, and take a glance ot the '02-'04 roster. Maybe then we can talk about whether Phil has given us an injection of talent....

...and while you're revieing that rogue's gallery of underacheivers (most of whom aren't even in the league anymore), remember how deep our purge had to be to just get us to where we now are.


just sayin',

Remember the 05 LB draft??? The guru drafted 3 in the 1st four rounds (had to get Travis WIlson in the 3rd...lol), and they now comprise perhaps the WORST LB unit in the league. Sorry, but minus Joe most of the talent that Phil has brought in has been through FA.

The 05 draft was Edwards, Pool and Frye and a bunch of castoffs..
The 06 draft was the Wilson pick in the third ..

Lol.....yeah missed that one. You bring up another good point though, and that is pretty much BOTH of his first two drafts have been crap...........I just wasn't going to bring up the 1st one, because the staff was just put in place and didn't have a full year to prepare. The LB draft was just pathetic, and we had plenty of time to prepare.........thus making it fair game for critique imo.

If you at the results of our Drafts, and look what is on the field, Savage has not produced much. Most of the main talent we have is via free agency and possibly 1 pick through the rounds. Then think about after the starters, who has shown ANYTHING. Especially in the defensive front 7. Yes, the 02-04 roster was just dismal. But we have not fielded alot of talent since nor found any diamonds in the rough either. And that is on Phil!!

j/k


RAC is gone, Lerner has to make that move, can you imagon bring RAC back and starting next season off 0-2 or 0-3 even in preseason....WOW the city would explode. and that would be too late to bring in a new coach and that would be another year wasted, In order to save next year or even be on schedule to compete Lerner knows he must bring in a new coach.

Savage might be kept and to me he should. People expect Phil to draft pro bowl players rounds 1-7 each & every year, thats dosent happen, Phil has done a good job of bring in FA & soild draft choices.

Have people ever wondered why some team dosent hire Mel kiper who evalutaes college talent for the draft for a living to be thier GM or head scout or player of personnel, one might be money but the draft is a crap shoot. some guys have better odds to make it and be solid but ya never know, We can talk about draft picks gone wrong we know the story we know the argument. Phil has 99.9% of the time represented the Browns with class.

BE has played poorly, but who would you replace him with? Even with his issues, he's still better than any other option on the roster.

Winslow was fined and suspended because he LIED about he franchise and hisd behind the HIPPA laws that handcuffed the Browns from teling the truth. He blamed his staph infection of his OWN DOING on the club because he was mad he was shopped and not getting his extension. That is not anywhere near the same thing as JL and Cribbs commenting on teammates' performances. Apples and oranges.

BQ is INJURED and going to see Dr. ANdrews for his finger. You don't do that if ther isn't a serious issue going on. DA wasn't injured. Again, apples and oranges.

Players are held accountable. Things are being done in Berea behind closed doors....where they should be handled. You may feel better seiing it done publicly, but that isn't how a good coach handles those situations.

Once again, you post pure garbage as fact. The players do have confidence in Crennel. Funy how you say only WM has confidence in him, yet there were many others interviewed that stated that it wasn't RAC that was the problem. Just because you type it doesn't make it true. The lack of confidence the players have isn't in RAC, but in coaches a little further down the ladder....at least those that I have had conversations about.

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Funy how you say only WM has confidence in him, yet there were many others interviewed that stated that it wasn't RAC that was the problem.

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And RAC said it wasn't the players.. so either somebody is lying or all of them are stupid... because it is either the players or the coaches... and if it's the players, it's either lack of talent or lack of desire.... or, it's some combination of all of the above...

And coach, you do this a lot.. "the players were interviewed and they said...." I don't care what they said, they are not going to throw the HC of the team they currently play for under the bus and they usually don't throw their fellow players under the bus..... what they say in an interview and what they think might be two totally different things... but one thing I can say with relative certainty, each and every player and coach has some opinion on why this team is struggling (just like us fans do)... but nobody within the organization is sharing them.

I think Romeo is a man of integrity. He is a good man. And it should be a sad day when he is relieved of his duties. But something has to be done to the staff and/or the FO. We cannot continue like this.

We can't replace all the players. Some should be thinking of another line of work. But frankly, we do have some good ones. Enough that we should at least be competitive on a weekly basis. This league is built on the premise of parity. In theory everyone should be 8-8 or damn close to it.

The fact that we almost never are speaks volumes about what is going on in Berea. I honestly don't care who is "to blame". All I want is a winner. A team I can root for and be proud of. It's really not too much to ask.

Word for word, a great post, Otto.

Otto, we are looking at a possible release of half of our defense and part of our offense if we get a new HC. Remember when Davis replaced Palmer? We lost most of our defense and some WRs only to get Q. Morgan and Warren. Not much change. We did win but were changing every year without building...not Oline...no effective RB or WR...and no effective QB.

Crennel has changed things along with Savage. We built our Oline from the draft and got good FAs. We got Ohio players that wanted to be here. We eliminated personality problems and off-field jail time. We built a Oline and Dline. We are now ready to add LBs and maybe another DB. There were mistakes such as the staph problem and injuries. We are still in the building stage and the next stage could move us beyond our current problems.

Romeo is a good manager but not a football genius. Savage is not a personel genius but both work hard and that is all they can give. If we want a Bill Walsh or Paul Brown we have a long time to wait...a long time.

Cowher is not a football genius nor are any of the current former HCs...Maybe Nick Saban or Belicick can resurrect our pride but they are not going to be available for a long time if ever. That means we must find the next Paul Brown.

Wanted football genius that will innovate and resurrect a historic franchise. Must be able to see detail but move quickly...find excelent talent and motivate...inspire team unity and promote integrity...never waver from goals even under extreme pressure from press and fans and create football success through insight and talent. Salary open...can take over football operations to suit.

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BE has played poorly, but who would you replace him with? Even with his issues, he's still better than any other option on the roster.

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I don't deny that he's better than anyone other option. All the more reason sitting him would send a message. He knows he won't sit. That incentive/motivation is not there and should be. The team as a whole, while maybe suffering for that quarter, half, or game he sits, will be better in the long run. I'd rather have a coach who is willing to sacrifice short term results for a long term gain for the better of the team/organization.

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BQ is INJURED and going to see Dr. ANdrews for his finger. You don't do that if ther isn't a serious issue going on. DA wasn't injured. Again, apples and oranges.

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I'll certainly agree that comparing an injured player to a non-injured player is apples to oranges, but Romeo said the injury wasn't the reason he benched Quinn. He said he did it for a spark and because of Quinn's decision making. Why not the same for Anderson?

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Players are held accountable. Things are being done in Berea behind closed doors....where they should be handled. You may feel better seiing it done publicly, but that isn't how a good coach handles those situations.

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So what is being done behind closed doors? A good talking to? A chewing out? I have no problem with either, but if that's what's going on, it obviously isn't working. (And I'm focussing mostly on BE here) I'm not for a coach always berating his players in public, but sometimes a guy needs chewed out NOW, whether on the field or not. Again, playing time may be the only thing that gets through to some of these guys.

And, I'm pretty sure guys like Lombardi, Cowher, Brown, Halas and others have dealt with incidents publically during games at times (not all the time, as that begins to fall on deaf ears). Last time I checked, they were considered good coaches. I've been a head varsity coach in at least 1 sport for the last 13 years. Some of my players needed chewed out when the situation dictated it, and others didn't. At any event, the one thing that has always gotten through to my players is the fact that less than 100% effort results in bench time - regardless of how good/bad his/her backup is.

i find it funny that there were some people sitting the the chance to chide other fans when brady made a mistake...

"you were all over DA for that, but not brady?"

yeah, those...

but how about brady getting a leash of 2 interceptions in one half, while anderson got a leash of, what 8 games?

Great replies. I will answer what I know and what I think and specify which is which

I KNOW that there is NO ONE that feels worse about BE's performance than BE. Don't believe for one minute he is sitting there content and not worried about his performance. This kid is torn up. That is the biggest problem. His confidence is completely shattered. He is no where near the player that made those outstanding grabs in pre-season. There was some serious RAC "explosions" but the staff realized that wouldn't help this situation. BE is taking extra work in many ways to get through this. That's what I know. What I think is that he needs a sports psychologist.

RAC also stated that BQ was injured. As I told someone else, RAC isn't exactly eloquent in his speaking. What I hear is that some of what he was referring to was that with the injury, BQ couldn't make throws he thought he could. The consensus among the staff was that a healthy DA might provide a "spark" that an injured BQ just couldn't do. That's why there was a change. Had the roles been reversed, the same decision would have been made.

There have been many things done to try to right the ship. There have been RAC "explosions", players benched, rotations changed, extra filmwork, extra work on the field, and on and on and on. The problem is that some of these players just don't seem to respond. As a coach, I have sat here and tried to figure it out myself because they have me scratching my head, too. I don't have an answer on how to right the ship during this season. I do know what can be done in the offseason. We are not as far off as some are lamenting.

I've gotta say, this does look good... someone sent me this as a facebook bumper sticker.

On August 23rd, 1973 two machine-gun carrying criminals entered a bank in Stockholm, Sweden. Blasting their guns, one prison escapee named Jan-Erik Olsson announced to the terrified bank employees "The party has just begun!" The two bank robbers held four hostages, three women and one man, for the next 131 hours. The hostages were strapped with dynamite and held in a bank vault until finally rescued on August 28th.

After their rescue, the hostages exhibited a shocking attitude considering they were threatened, abused, and feared for their lives for over five days. In their media interviews, it was clear that they supported their captors and actually feared law enforcement personnel who came to their rescue. The hostages had begun to feel the captors were actually protecting them from the police. One woman later became engaged to one of the criminals and another developed a legal defense fund to aid in their criminal defense fees. Clearly, the hostages had "bonded" emotionally with their captors.

While the psychological condition in hostage situations became known as "Stockholm Syndrome" due to the publicity – the emotional "bonding" with captors was a familiar story in psychology. It had been recognized many years before and was found in studies of other hostage, prisoner, or abusive situations such as:

Abused Children
Battered/Abused Women
Prisoners of War
Cult Members
Incest Victims
Criminal Hostage Situations
Concentration Camp Prisoners
Controlling/Intimidating Relationships

In the final analysis, emotionally bonding with an abuser is actually a strategy for survival for victims of abuse and intimidation. The "Stockholm Syndrome" reaction in hostage and/or abuse situations is so well recognized at this time that police hostage negotiators no longer view it as unusual. In fact, it is often encouraged in crime situations as it improves the chances for survival of the hostages. On the down side, it also assures that the hostages experiencing "Stockholm Syndrome" will not be very cooperative during rescue or criminal prosecution. Local law enforcement personnel have long recognized this syndrome with battered women who fail to press charges, bail their battering husband/boyfriend out of jail, and even physically attack police officers when they arrive to rescue them from a violent assault.

Stockholm Syndrome (SS) can also be found in family, romantic, and interpersonal relationships. The abuser may be a husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, father or mother, or any other role in which the abuser is in a position of control or authority.

It's important to understand the components of Stockholm Syndrome as they relate to abusive and controlling relationships. Once the syndrome is understood, it's easier to understand why victims support, love, and even defend their abusers and controllers

its kinda odd how they bash rac for taking out Brady when he was >injured< and threw 2 pics. I mean he might be out for the season now so how is there any bashing of rac for taking him out now? lol

Ok we were in the game like all but a few. Edwards drops killed us again and we needed to run more.

Imagine if parcells or cower were coach. Edwards would of been 2nd or 3rd string by now. Easily. I mean he is fast but we had a quincy already.....so didnt parcells. Parcells said on tv that quincy had a fundamental flaw to catching. hehe. We just love those guys dont we?

Harrison was lookin good and so was lewis as odd as it was. Then we stop.....Kinda our m.o. with harrison.

Rac is to blame for clock management and non benching. We just cant put everything on him. He might need to step in on D and show his skill there. That might show his worth

Honestly...After BE dropped that slant pass in the 4th I just grabbed a cold one and packed my stuff and left..

Coach, thanks for the replies.

The sports psychiatrist thing is interesting. I think I remember John Smoltz seeing one early in his career, and it seemed to work out well for him. At this point it would be worth a shot.

BE's drops seem to me like a hitter who's in a slump. You try this, you try that. People suggest this, people suggest that. Ultimately you just reach a point where you say screw it, quit thinking, and just go up there and hit the ball. (I've had enough hitting slumps to know!) I think that's where Braylon needs to get, but he's still too much inside his own head. As for his effort, that's the one thing (as you know) any player can always control, and it doesn't appear to me that he's putting his best effort forth on every play. If that's the case, I still believe he needs some bench time - even if JuJaun Dawson was behind him (there's a blast from the past). Rock bottom is a tough place to be, but he needs to get there sooner than later, so he can climb back up. No doubt something needs to be done, somehow.

At this point, the team's season has become a trainwreck. Everything that can go wrong seemingly has. I don't see how RAC can be back next year, regardless of improvements made in the off season. If the team drops a few games early, it could be riotous and obviously counterproductive to the entire team. I'm definitely not into knee-jerk reactions either. Heck, I thought Chris Palmer should have been given another year!

Maybe the patience that Lerner/Savage/RAC seem to be showing will pay off, but it's not looking good right now.

That was a good post. The only thing that bothers me is not knowing whether the decision hasn't alreday been made. If the Browns--and I don't care if it is Anderson that gets it done--take these next 5, even without making the playoffs, does that get RAC another year ??

We're really not that far away. But the bad luck has got to change, and no one can control that.

Can't argue that.

This team has a way of winning at odd times...very unpredictable. Crennel said this..."if I could fix I would." They usually win just enough at the end of the year to relieve the tension and allow Crennel to continue.

We really don't want another Bilick or Cowher do we? We want a real transformation with a football genius that can evaluate players, select the offense and recommend on defense. We want a real coach that can lead and think. Those coaches are hard to find and there is no use in switching until we are sure we have progress.

The problem is winning insipres leadership and promotes the coach...losing destroys confidence and hurts the credibility of the coach and kills team effort. Nobody is following Crennel because they think he is not going anywhere.

Sounds like Savage is playing the CYA game - ouch!...

Link

McManamon: Savage cooks Crennel's turkey
By Patrick McManamon
Beacon Journal sports writer

POSTED: 06:48 p.m. EST, Nov 26, 2008

If any doubt existed about coach Romeo Crennel's future with the Browns, it probably should be erased after hearing Phil Savage's radio show Wednesday morning.

Savage, the Browns' general manager, left a person scratching his head when he spoke about Crennel during his weekly appearance on WTAM.

''I've said it on this program a number of times,'' Savage said. ''Hey, my responsibility is the 53-man roster, and then it's Romeo and the rest of the coaching staff's decision how to utilize the 45 players that are dressed on Sunday. Who starts. Who plays. When they're gonna play. How they're gonna be utilized.

''If I'm going to get involved in those decisions, then I may as well put a headset on and double my salary.''

He said there were frustrations from some things that had happened on the field, but added: ''These were the guys that we've hired to go out and do a job. Unfortunately, it hasn't gone as well as we'd hoped for.''

He pointed out that a couple of plays here or there might have changed an outcome, but he said the loss Sunday to the Houston Texans was ''really by far the worst game we've had since I've been here.''

''And I'm not talking about two years ago, when we basically didn't have much ability,'' Savage said. ''I'm talking about over the last two seasons when we had some talent, we had some ability to go out and be an NFL team. We just didn't show up. I don't know the explanation for that. We'll see what happens this next Sunday.''

These statements sounded to me like a GM taking out the coach at the knees, of the complete abandonment of the ''all for one and one for all'' philosophy.

But I've been critical of the Browns lately, and at times of Savage. So to be fair, I asked a few people, including a former player everyone respected, what they thought of Savage's words.

The former player summed up the feeling: ''Tell RAC to get a paddle, 'cuz Phil just sold him down the river.''

That was kind of my reaction. ''Hey, I got these standout players; if they laid an egg, that's on the coaches.''

It didn't seem quite fair to Crennel, a good man who has worked his hardest and done his best to win. He has made some decisions that can be questioned, yes, and his won-lost record is not good.

But given his efforts and work and dedication, he doesn't deserve to see the last weeks of his job include this kind of thing.

This came across like self-preservation, of protecting one's own hide at the expense of others. Years of ''we are in this together'' suddenly became ''don't ask me to coach them, too.''

I asked the former player — I told him I preferred to use his name; he did not want to, but he is a former Brown who knows Savage and Crennel — for a little more insight.

He said: ''I hope Mr. [Randy] Lerner sees through that. Savage picked all the players. Romeo coaches the guys Savage gives him to coach. You get a bunch of kids and not enough smart leaders, then the inmates run the asylum. Does the coach run, catch, tackle, drop passes, blow plays? Who picks those players?''

He wasn't finished.

''The decisions are made by the GM,'' he said. ''The coach coaches who is put in front of him. He doesn't have a choice.''

Kind of like Crennel didn't have a choice on his offensive staff changes before 2007.

''The coaches coach; the GM picks 'em. Bottom line,'' he said. ''If anything, they are tied together.

''I'm not saying RAC is free from question. It's just that everything is not based on the coach. Yes, at times it comes down to scheme, teaching. But if the exact same defense worked in New England, why is it so bad here?

''Duh. The players aren't the same and neither is the guy picking them.

''Look at New England's team. Smart, tough, team guys that play together. Cleveland has talented, young, prima-donna-filled, blown-assignment guys that don't play together or for a common goal. They pick up a paycheck.

''Not all are that way, but enough are to mess things up.

''Now, who picks those guys?''

Well. . .it's not the guy coaching them.

If any doubt existed about coach Romeo Crennel's future with the Browns, it probably should be erased after hearing Phil Savage's radio show Wednesday morning.

Savage, the Browns' general manager, left a person scratching his head when he spoke about Crennel during his weekly appearance on WTAM.

''I've said it on this program a number of times,'' Savage said. ''Hey, my responsibility is the 53-man roster, and then it's Romeo and the rest of the coaching staff's decision how to utilize the 45 players that are dressed on Sunday. Who starts. Who plays. When they're gonna play. How they're gonna be utilized.

''If I'm going to get involved in those decisions, then I may as well put a headset on and double my salary.''

He said there were frustrations from some things that had happened on the field, but added: ''These were the guys that we've hired to go out and do a job. Unfortunately, it hasn't gone as well as we'd hoped for.''

He pointed out that a couple of plays here or there might have changed an outcome, but he said the loss Sunday to the Houston Texans was ''really by far the worst game we've had since I've been here.''

''And I'm not talking about two years ago, when we basically didn't have much ability,'' Savage said. ''I'm talking about over the last two seasons when we had some talent, we had some ability to go out and be an NFL team. We just didn't show up. I don't know the explanation for that. We'll see what happens this next Sunday.''

These statements sounded to me like a GM taking out the coach at the knees, of the complete abandonment of the ''all for one and one for all'' philosophy.

But I've been critical of the Browns lately, and at times of Savage. So to be fair, I asked a few people, including a former player everyone respected, what they thought of Savage's words.

The former player summed up the feeling: ''Tell RAC to get a paddle, 'cuz Phil just sold him down the river.''

That was kind of my reaction. ''Hey, I got these standout players; if they laid an egg, that's on the coaches.''

It didn't seem quite fair to Crennel, a good man who has worked his hardest and done his best to win. He has made some decisions that can be questioned, yes, and his won-lost record is not good.

But given his efforts and work and dedication, he doesn't deserve to see the last weeks of his job include this kind of thing.

This came across like self-preservation, of protecting one's own hide at the expense of others. Years of ''we are in this together'' suddenly became ''don't ask me to coach them, too.''

I asked the former player — I told him I preferred to use his name; he did not want to, but he is a former Brown who knows Savage and Crennel — for a little more insight.

He said: ''I hope Mr. [Randy] Lerner sees through that. Savage picked all the players. Romeo coaches the guys Savage gives him to coach. You get a bunch of kids and not enough smart leaders, then the inmates run the asylum. Does the coach run, catch, tackle, drop passes, blow plays? Who picks those players?''

He wasn't finished.

''The decisions are made by the GM,'' he said. ''The coach coaches who is put in front of him. He doesn't have a choice.''

Kind of like Crennel didn't have a choice on his offensive staff changes before 2007.

''The coaches coach; the GM picks 'em. Bottom line,'' he said. ''If anything, they are tied together.

''I'm not saying RAC is free from question. It's just that everything is not based on the coach. Yes, at times it comes down to scheme, teaching. But if the exact same defense worked in New England, why is it so bad here?

''Duh. The players aren't the same and neither is the guy picking them.

''Look at New England's team. Smart, tough, team guys that play together. Cleveland has talented, young, prima-donna-filled, blown-assignment guys that don't play together or for a common goal. They pick up a paycheck.

''Not all are that way, but enough are to mess things up.

''Now, who picks those guys?''

Well. . .it's not the guy coaching them.