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To put it simply..I'm not for booting Phil..Rac is a different story as I think there is a better HC out there...
But if I'm Lerner and I want to keep some continuity ..he has to look at what each new potiential HC wants to do.
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U know what I mean..some people want Phil and Rac gone , thats blowing it up.
I disagree. To me "blowing it up" is bringing in a coach that wants to switch back to the 4-3 and a west coast offense which negates the few good players we do have.. Bringing in some new office people and a new HC who wants to run a similar system just with a different attitude.. to me that's not blowing the whole thing up.
yebat' Putin
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You ever thought that a new GM and HC could come in here and decide that the players in place aren't what they want?
That also could happen .
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You ever thought that a new GM and HC could come in here and decide that the players in place aren't what they want?
That also could happen .
Of course, in fact I'd expect it.. heck even if we stay with the exact same system, some of the players aren't who I want.  My point is that if we stick with a similar system, we aren't starting from scratch..
yebat' Putin
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Here's the breakdown, folks:
Paul Brown: 16 years 7 national championships
Blanton Collier: 7 years 1 championship
Marty Schottenheimer: 4 years no championship
And it goes downhill from there.
By contrast, the Pittsburgh Steelers in that same time span:
10 head coaches. Surprised? You shouldn't be. Until the appointment of Chuck Noll, the Steelers went through 7 head coaches, who averaged exactly 2.14 years. Back then, they were considered a laughingstock.
Are you seeing a correlation here, folks?
Oh yeah... there's a correlation alright, and it's not what you think in the slightest.
Of Paul Brown's 7 championships, he was 4 for 4 in his first four years and won 7 in 10 years. He finished below .500 only once in his 17 years with the team. He also won 12 division championships with us.
Blanton Collier won a championship in his second year, won 5 division championships and never finished below .500 in 8 years before he was forced out.
Chuck Noll's teams improved in record every one of his first 4 years and took his team one round deep into the playoffs by his 4th year after inheriting a 2-11-1 team. He won a Super Bowl by his 6th year.
Heck, even Marty Schottenheimer who you use as the "bad" example, took the team to 4 straight playoff appearances after his first year before being fired, even though he was relatively successful.
See the correlation yet? It's not that these guys were given a ton of time while they continued to struggle, they either started well right off the bat (some because they had a better roster than others) or as in Noll's case, showed continuous improvement, got good quickly, made it to the playoffs and kept right on winning.
Romeo improved by 2 games in 2005, regressed by 2 games in 2006, improved by 6 games in 2007, largely buoyed by the 2nd easiest schedule in the NFL while still missing the playoffs, then has regressed by 6 games so far in 2008. How is this inconcistency the same thing you see from the coaches you listed above? What makes you think some more time will result in greatness?
Again... consistency is great but it does you no good if you stick with something that doesn't work. Don't be consistent just for consistency's sake. What it does mean, as happened with the Steelers and Noll, is that you don't settle for inferior coaches... you find the RIGHT guy to build a dynasty. Once you find him, give him all the time he needs to construct his program.
Tell me... what makes you think Romeo is that guy for us to spend another year on other than the fact that we have sunk 4 years into him for a 4-9 record in 4 years and you just don't feel like rebuilding again?
We're... we're good?
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Spectre, this is one of the things that bugs me about the RAC discussion (and I'm not a big fan of his)... Quote:
Romeo improved by 2 games in 2005, regressed by 2 games in 2006, improved by 6 games in 2007, largely buoyed by the 2nd easiest schedule in the NFL while still missing the playoffs, then has regressed by 6 games so far in 2008.
Why do you qualify your comment about last year by stating we had an easy schedule without commenting on difficult our schedule was this year and how injury plagued we were? RAC has done a lot of things I disagree with but this year was just cursed and I don't think there is anything any coach could have done to save it.
The other difference, if you want to use Noll as an example, in his first few years, the Steelers drafted Bradshaw, Franco, Blount, Ham.. Noll won 1 game in his first season, 5 in his second and 6 in his third, then he took off with 7 of 8, 10 plus win seasons including 4 super bowls... then from 1980 to 1991, he won 10 or more games exactly once in 11 years...
How do you know next year isn't the year RAC starts his run?
yebat' Putin
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Why do you qualify your comment about last year by stating we had an easy schedule without commenting on difficult our schedule was this year and how injury plagued we were? RAC has done a lot of things I disagree with but this year was just cursed and I don't think there is anything any coach could have done to save it.
It didn't need to be said to prove the point but I threw it in there anyway. Last season, we literally got all our wins against the easiest teams on our schedule. The only team we beat that was above .500 was the Seahawks, and they were the only team in the league with an easier schedule than us. That tells me that our win total last year was greatly inflated by the schedule.
In comparison, this year, there isn't such a pattern. We've overachieved against some of the harder parts of the schedule (Giants) and have underachieved against the easier parts of it (Houston, Bengals). If we were just getting overwhelmed by our schedule, I would make this argument as well but the fact is, we've been in most of our games this year and just failed to do anything. Pittsburgh and Baltimore have been doing just fine with essentially the same opponents and at the beginning of the year, people believed we could be better than both.
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The other difference, if you want to use Noll as an example, in his first few years, the Steelers drafted Bradshaw, Franco, Blount, Ham.. Noll won 1 game in his first season, 5 in his second and 6 in his third, then he took off with 7 of 8, 10 plus win seasons including 4 super bowls... then from 1980 to 1991, he won 10 or more games exactly once in 11 years...
That's the whole point. Noll drafted players and then constantly improved with them. He made the playoffs in Year 4 and never looked back. I never said don't give RAC a few years but when you're probably going to sit at 5-11 after Year 4 of a 5 year plan, something has gone wrong.
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How do you know next year isn't the year RAC starts his run?
I don't. No one does. I can at least guess though. Does RAC look like the guy to get us there to you or do you just want to give him the benefit of the doubt? Does this look like a maturing team that's ready to make a leap next year to you though?
We're... we're good?
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It didn't need to be said to prove the point
Neither did the part about an easy schedule...., your agenda is showing 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It didn't need to be said to prove the point
Neither did the part about an easy schedule...., your agenda is showing
That's what I was saying. Man, sometimes I wonder if you just like raising hell for the fun of it.
We're... we're good?
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That's what I was saying. Man, sometimes I wonder if you just like raising hell for the fun of it.
I guess you didn't see the laughing guys,,, Chill man.. I was funnin you.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I never know what to interpret with those damn laughing guys, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. 
We're... we're good?
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#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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A pro-Crennel article from Pat Mac.
What a shame it's flawed.
However, I will say he does a masterful job of blending Crennel's failures in with the rest of the wash, and thereby excusing them.
Sorry. I'm not biting.
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Any team that gives up 235 yards rushing in a game and 145 yards per season has major issues and cannot win consistently, especially when it's trying to cobble together an offense with a third-string quarterback.
This is a perfect example.
On the surface, Pat is 100% correct, but what this example fails to address are the REAL problems with Crennel, which all go much deeper than matchup problems and wins and losses. Those things can excuse a coach if said coach is making the right moves. Crennel hasn't.
We have another example of this later on.....
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Other teams are going through the same kind of season. The Jacksonville Jaguars are 4-9, the San Diego Chargers 5-8 and the Green Bay Packers 5-8.
There is anger and disappointment, but Jack Del Rio, Norv Turner and Mike McCarthy will be back coaching in 2009 — barring some major change of an owner's mind.
In 2005, the Titans were 4-12.
Coach Jeff Fisher returned. The Titans now are 12-1.
So Pat is going to use the tried-and-true method of message board fans around the NFL by making general comparisons that aren't equal 
Fisher has a long, distinguised career as a head coach. So how about Crennel?
Yeah. Right.
Del Rio is a proven head coach who's had his team in hunt for the playoffs numerous years. However, he's also known as a coach who makes smart moves and tough decisions.
When everyone expected Leftwich to be his guy, he turned everyone on their ears and went with Gerrard. Leftwich is now a backup, Gerrard a quality NFL starter.
So what about Crennel? He went with Frye instead of Anderson. He then either stuck with Anderson too long this year or benched him too quickly, as the timing of the move to Quinn was highly questionable. The smart move would have been to bench Anderson when he was playing poorly. Instead, he waited until Anderson started playing better. Brilliant move, that one.
McCarthy took over a tough gig and went 8-8. He then went 13-3 the following year. This is his first tough year, though he's helped coach a first-time starter into a pro-bowl-caliber player in his first-year as a starter.
Crennel? One good year against a pathetic schedule, and he's done a poor job with his QB's.
Those three examples are failed attempts by Pat to paint a positive picture for RAC. In fact, they are bush league, which, come to think of it, is where Pat Mac lives these days.
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Lately, though, Savage has sounded more like a man interested in his turf than bringing the team together. He went on the radio to say he was only responsible for picking the 53-man roster, that how they were used was up to the coaches. He said the same thing the previous day to the team.
It's something everyone knew, but saying it the way Savage did was unnecessary and came across like he was stabbing Crennel in the back while trying to save his own job.
What an unadulterated crock of [CENSORED]
When Pat tried this crap a few weeks ago, we called him out for printing that slanted crap. When the REAL sequence of questions and answers came out, there was nothing that indicated Savage was throwing Crennel under the bus.
Pat is at it again It's no more truthful now than it was a few weeks ago. Sorry Pat, you're crap ain't flyin' this time, just like it didn't last time.
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But some of the things he has been criticized for have been on impression. One example: Quarterback Derek Anderson wasting time at the end of the first half in Washington to run to the sideline to get a play because the helmet receiver wasn't working.
Anderson had been told in practice to spike the ball or call a play if that happened. He didn't.
Really, Pat, I'd love to see some proof of that.
Remember folks, we ALL KNOW that the Browns had a problem allowing their QB's freedom to call plays or audibles. If we didn't allow Dilfer or Frye to do it, why should be suddenly believe that Anderson had the same freedom? I sure don't.
However, for the sake of arguement, let's say Pat is right. Maybe we should list all the screwups that Crennel has made just this year alone. Those are the REAL reasons he's on the outs. The combined record and personnel issues aren't.
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Some of Crennel's other decisions relate to field goals vs. going for it on fourth down, those kind of things.
It's fair to second-guess them.
But even if Crennel had decided to go the popular way, the way fans wanted, it wouldn't have changed a single game outcome. The Browns would still be 4-9 and Kevin Shaffer would still be getting bull-rushed by Robert Mathis.
So because the ultimate outcome, IN PAT'S OPINION, wouldn't have changed, that means the screwups on Crennel's part aren't significant.
BS.
Crennel is judged based on those screwups just as he's judged on the good things he does. The problem with Pat's analogy is that it doesn't address the fundamental reason that RAC will be fired: He's a poor decision maker when the game is on the line, and just because he MAY, In Pat's opinion, have gotten away with it before, that doesn't mean he'll get away with it in the future.
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It seems time to see Rucker and Bell, but Crennel favors veterans. If the team favors a different approach, it will need a different coach.
Gee, Pat, haven't you realized that's part of the reason we're going to fire him? 
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The same coach used the same methods a year ago, and those results had fans chanting ''Super Bowl'' at the first practice.
Now they are screaming for his head.
Jezuz H. Christ...........Last year we were in the hunt for a playoff birth. This year we've been out of it for a month.
If Pat doesn't understand that, then he can't be helped, and I've no reason to continue to tear down an article written by a man who can't understand the most simplistic fundamental difference of being a contender or being in our current situation.
People need to stop viewing Crennel as this sympathetic figure. He's earned several million dollars as a coach for an NFL team. He and his family are set for life, having enjoyed his own lifetime of doing something he loves. He did a job and was rewarded handsomely for it. Failing and enduring the criticism doesn't mean anything derogatory for Crennel as the man. Yes he had class. Yes the players loved him. Yes he's likable. But does that mean anything when he's simply not a good head coach? No, it doesn't, not one bit. From the standpoint of being our head coach, he failed, and he'll be fired. It's fair and it's just, and that's where this story will end.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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So what about Crennel? He went with Frye instead of Anderson. He then either stuck with Anderson too long this year or benched him too quickly, as the timing of the move to Quinn was highly questionable. The smart move would have been to bench Anderson when he was playing poorly. Instead, he waited until Anderson started playing better. Brilliant move, that one.
I have to stop you there..I 've seen that remark way too many times..and it's usually a hasty comment..it was fact that DA never outplayed Frye in camp..the coaches wanted him to do so ..but he never showed it..had he , as Phil said , the offer was there on the table to trade CF away.
Now other decisions baffle me as sometimes I wonder whats going on..but I often come back to what I've known about Rac..he doesn't micro-manage like he should..he trusts his coaches TOO MUCH..
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"and have underachieved against the easier parts of it (Houston, Bengals)."
Just a note...you do realize we beat the Bengals and in their house.
I wish we "Underachieved" like that against some other teams 
But you are correct in theory...I thought we were a better team than the Redskins and Broncos - we let teams get away and the Flavor of the Month/Season has been...this team just cannot "FINISH". Well if thats not a testimony of ineptitude of a coaching staff - I don't know what is???
And sometimes I just wonder in the back of my mind. Our draft only choir boy agenda. Maybe, we need a murderer or two on our team (like the Ravens) to actually step on somebodies neck when they are down and finish them. Of course I don't want a murderer...but you all know what I mean. Maybe collectively we are just too nice???
Of course the Pats seem to be able to finish...so we go back to coaching!
JMHO - RAC ain't scum, I like him and a lot about him and have defended him throughout his tenure. But something most definitely is wrong and in that regard change is needed. But I hope those who are in charge - put a direct finger on what is "Wrong" and fix it with their future moves!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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it was fact that DA never outplayed Frye in camp..the coaches wanted him to do so ..
It's also been reported as fact that the offensive coordinator felt that Anderson was a better fit for the system.
It's also been seen as fact that Anderson is a better QB than Frye.
So with all things being equal, with both QB's playing the same in camp, Crennel had a decision to make, and he chose the wrong guy.
That's where that story ends.
I know it was a tough decision, but that's no excuse. He's paid a REDICULOUS amount of money to make the tough decisions. That's his job, and his job rides on whether or not he can make those kinds of decisions.
Something else I failed to comment on last night. People that hold high-profile and important jobs are there because when the times are tough and decisions critical, they are supposed to rise up and make the right calls. So what has RAC done? He's folded like his defenses under the pressure of coaching for his job. His decisions on personnel have gotten worse as his job has been on the line, and his game-time decisions have been suspect as well.
Now is it my turn to pile on? Yeah, it is. I'm not gonna let some phoney-balogny sympathetic article get in the way of reality.
RAC is a nice guy, but nice guys often finish last.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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So with all things being equal, with both QB's playing the same in camp, Crennel had a decision to make, and he chose the wrong guy.
That's where that story ends.
I don't know about that Toad,, think about it.. they may have wanted DA to succeed, they may have felt he was the better QB.. but when it came time to show it, he didn't.
It's really pretty simple.. So I don't think that RAC made the wrong choice, I think he made the only choice..
But lets say you are right and I'm wrong, the way they pulled Frye in the first game and then traded him away, showed that they weren't going to sit on thier hands once a clear determination was made...
But even if you are right, at least it only took them one game into the season to correct it... Frankly, that's pretty quick
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I don't know about that Toad,, think about it.. they may have wanted DA to succeed, they may have felt he was the better QB.. but when it came time to show it, he didn't.
And by those same accounts, neither did Frye.
All things are equal, and he chose the wrong QB.
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But lets say you are right and I'm wrong, the way they pulled Frye in the first game and then traded him away, showed that they weren't going to sit on thier hands once a clear determination was made...
Which doesn't change the fact he chose the wrong guy 
I'm sorry D, but I'm not letting up on this one. If Pat Mac is going to use guys like Del Rio as examples of coaches who are in Crennel's shoes and will survive, then I'm going to compare the moves of those coaches to Crennel's. To that end, Del Rio made a bold move by benching what some felt was an established, proven veteran in Leftwich for an unproven backup. He was right. Crennel stuck with an unproven veteran, and was wrong. He's then screwed the pooch by the way he's handled our QB situation this year.
There's no excusing Crennel here. He had his chance. He had his four years. He was excused during the first two because he was a "rookie" ( ) head coach. There is no excuse for those same mistakes over the last two years. He's going to be fired, and the move is justified. It's also two years too late, as I've wanted him gone for a couple of years now.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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And by those same accounts, neither did Frye.
All things are equal, and he chose the wrong QB.
If you take points away for choosing the wrong QB,, shouldn't be fair that he gets points for fixing the "mistake" quickly?
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Which doesn't change the fact he chose the wrong guy
Again, he who is without error,,, stand up! Nobody is perfect.. not even some of the best coaches ever to walk the sideline.
Chuck Noll (no, I'm not comparing him to RAC so don't even think of going there) once chose Terry Hanratty over Terry Bradshaw... YIKES....Now there was a blunder of biblical proportions as it turns out.......
For years, I've been telling my customers that I'm not perfect.. that I make errors.. and I've asked them to not judge me to harshly over them.. Rather, judge me on how quickly I fix an error.. That to me is even more a measure of a man (person).
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If Pat Mac is going to use guys like Del Rio as examples of coaches who are in Crennel's shoes and will survive, then I'm going to compare the moves of those coaches to Crennel's.
Actually, I wasn't commenting on that.. I could honestly care less about what Pat Mac says... really,, how often is he right about things?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I don't have a issue with wanting another HC..I even think so..but I'm not going to blame Rac for going with Frye, when DA didn't beat him out..and if they had made that decision ..and it still came out that DA HADN'T BEAT HIM, you'd be screaming foul..
Instead why don't you say what SHOULD have determined who started.
There was no indication that DA was the better QB at the time..no one knew it..they all wanted it..Phil wanted it..OC said he thought h DA's skills better suited their scheme but he didn't come out and take the job..so would it have been right to go with a guy who could have BOMBED out as well??
Well he eventually bombed out anyway.
U may want to pile on but don't discredit him that way..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/11/08 02:48 PM.
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If you take points away for choosing the wrong QB,, shouldn't be fair that he gets points for fixing the "mistake" quickly?
Have to trace back how this topic started, which was with Pat Mac using Del Rio as a comparable guy to champion RAC's cause. In regard to their choices at QB, no, RAC can't get credit when he's made the poor choice. Furthering that train of thought are the mistakes he's continued to make with the QB's. So should he get credit for constantly fixing his own mistakes? Nope, he shouldn't.
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Again, he who is without error,,, stand up! Nobody is perfect.. not even some of the best coaches ever to walk the sideline.
Nope, nobody is, but there's a standard of performance that's required when you're the head coach of a team which represents the pinacle of the sport you're in.
This isn't about whether or not someone is perfect. This is about whether or not someone can continue to make mistake after mistake. RAC can't.
Remember, that card about making mistakes was played in his rookie year and in his 2nd year. It had a little credibility then. It has none now. Had he made a bunch of correct calls, it could be argued that he's earned some leeway, but he hasn't.
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For years, I've been telling my customers that I'm not perfect.. that I make errors.. and I've asked them to not judge me to harshly over them.. Rather, judge me on how quickly I fix an error.. That to me is even more a measure of a man (person).
And such is true. If you want to measure the character of a man, measure him based on how he reacts to his own mistakes, but you can't equate the real world to what happens in the NFL. Simply put, they aren't allowed constant mistakes. They are paid to be correct, virtually right out of the gate. That's the way the NFL works, and to that end, RAC has failed.
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If Pat Mac is going to use guys like Del Rio as examples of coaches who are in Crennel's shoes and will survive, then I'm going to compare the moves of those coaches to Crennel's.
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Actually, I wasn't commenting on that.. I could honestly care less about what Pat Mac says... really,, how often is he right about things?
Who, Pat Mac? Hardly ever  And my comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at......everyone, hehe......because I'm not interested in letting Pat Mac spin this into a legit defense of RAC. There simply isn't one.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Instead why don't you say what SHOULD have determined who started.
There was no indication that DA was the better QB at the time..no one knew it..they all wanted it..Phil wanted it..OC said he thought h DA's skills better suited their scheme but he didn't come out and take the job..
I think it's funny that RAC let's his coordinators run their own respective units, but when the OC endorsed Anderson, RAC still went with Frye.
That's two strikes against RAC in just one sentence.
Since we're discussing "taking the job" we didn't see Quinn take the job from Anderson in practice, did we?
If that is how choosing the QB is judged, then RAC has made that mistake over and over again, which is how he ended up here, and will be looking for a new job on the first Monday after the season is over.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Posts: 75,232
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,232 |
...................Just to add Toad, ( yes, we agree here )
When you draft a rookie, by year four he should be a fairly finished product. That's why top tier FA's are so expencive at the end of their first contract.
Why don't people hold HC's to that same standard? I do.....
If after year four, you see many of the same deficiancies you did in year one?
It's time to let him hit the open market.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
The open market,....what organization brings this guy in ?? after this putrid performance.
I was not picking on you,...'retirement' starts with an "R" for a reason---"R"ac.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
I'll reiterate something I said two years ago.......
If RAC were a free agent coach, and you were a fan of another NFL team, would you want him to be named the head coach?
RAC won't get another HC gig. He'll land a coordinators job, but his days as an NFL HC are over.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
First..the OC didn't give DA starting endorse..he said DA seemed to have the skills compatable for running that scheme but he admitted that the dude just didn't take the job..really I can't fault Rac for going that way..
And personally if they had wanted to go that route, then Rac shouldn't have said anything about who had a leg up on whom...
We didn't see BQ take the job because it had already been decided that there would be no competition in camp.
Now ..who really promoted that?
Phil...and Rac really had no say so..
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The piling on of Crennel
continues........
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