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What is it about the Browns franchise that we continually struggle?
Why haven't we, in the 9 years since we've been back, brought in the right personnel, both on the field and in the front office?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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2nd String
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I'm sorry, but I have a very hard time that we aren't talented enough on the field to win. There's a lot of reasons we aren't winning. Talent is not one of them, IMO.
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Legend
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Well, that goes to the original question. What is it about the Browns that, even if we do have the talent, we still can't win?
And don't just say "because the coaching is bad." Why can't we hire good coaches?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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It just never comes together. Today, our D plays VERY WELL against Peyton Manning and our Offense couldn't score if their life depended on it. Other games, we can put up 40 pts and lose.  So far in our return to the league, it just never all comes together for a game, let alone a season.
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Legend
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Well, WHY doesn't it come together?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
Well, WHY doesn't it come together?
Lack of quality coaching, lack of talent, but most of all...
lack of luck.
you had a good run Hank.
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Legend
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Ok, then why don't we bring in quality coaches and more talent?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Ok, then why don't we bring in quality coaches and more talent?
Bad football personnel.
Randy Learner has made some poor choices in football people so far *to be fair, Al deserves his share of the blame as well.*
We have a lack of football people in the football organization.
you had a good run Hank.
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Well, WHY doesn't it come together?
Great question.
I'd agree w/ the others that said we don't have the right staff in place - personnel and players.
Right now, it starts w/ an owner that may not be the best owner for this team. Then it's a trickle down effect. Savage has potential, but maybe not as a GM. Crennel has potential, but not has a HC right now. And so forth.
I'm just tired of this team being a training grounds for players and coaches. NO MORE ROOKIE HEAD COACHES. Let's just start there. Please.
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One of the biggest reasons is because we had zero draft picks for three consecutive seasons while everybody else had access to the pool of talent coming out of college. Take a look at some of the players that were drafted in '96,'97,and '98, and what they mean to their teams now. Here's a few: Peyton Manning, Randy Moss, Hines Ward, Alan Faneca, Ray Lewis, Charles Woodson, Marvin Harrison, 1996 Draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=1996&round=round11997 Draft- http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=1997&round=round11998 Draft - http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=1998&round=round1You want continuity - Look at the Cleveland Browns - Not the Browns that play here, but the Browns that have been playing in Baltimore, the Browns that have had consecutive drafts since 1946. - The team that has been developing for over 60 years - that's where our continuity went. You want tradition - Yeah, our colors stayed in Cleveland, but our tradition of winning went to Baltimore along with the most important component - the players, and experience that they took with them to pass down to younger generations of Browns players (well, Ravens players) You want history and everything that goes along with it - What a better place to find it than in the head of a Hall of Fame tight end that learned the game in Cleveland, and was taught by Cleveland's coaches, quarterbacks, and former players. - Cleveland raised him by teaching him and paying him, and, like everything else that was Cleveland Browns football, Baltimore benefitted from it. Whether you bring Cowher in here or not, we're an expansion team bro. - It's gonna take another 3 years at a minimum. - That's if we're lucky.
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All Pro
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I'll tell you why, because the Browns don't have anybody competent enough to make good hiring decisions. I mean think about it, you are giving full authority to a glorified Scout in Phil Savage! Are you freaking serious? Come on guys, we all know that Ozzie makes the Ravens, Phil was just part of the puzzle in Baltimore.
If Randy Lerner plans on keeping the Browns and not selling them, then he needs to hire some extremely competent people in the Front Office to hire good coaches and scouts.
I got to ask a serious question, Crennel was hired prior Savage. Who was advising Lerner to hire Crennel??? Further, who was advising Lerner to hire Savage. I'm assuming the person doing the advising was a leftover from the Carmen Policy era.....
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Whether you bring Cowher in here or not, we're an expansion team bro. - It's gonna take another 3 years at a minimum. - That's if we're lucky.
For sure.
We are done for at least a good 3-5 years and a good decade is not out of question. And that's if and only if we can get something resembling an organization put into place.
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Whether you bring Cowher in here or not, we're an expansion team bro. - It's gonna take another 3 years at a minimum. - That's if we're lucky.
For sure.
We are done for at least a good 3-5 years and a good decade is not out of question. And that's if and only if we can get something resembling an organization put into place.
I 100% disagree. We have plenty more talent here than the normal expansion team, and with the right coaching and some additions to the defense, this could easily be a playoff team next year.
you had a good run Hank.
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Whether you bring Cowher in here or not, we're an expansion team bro. - It's gonna take another 3 years at a minimum. - That's if we're lucky.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Whether you bring Cowher in here or not, we're an expansion team bro. - It's gonna take another 3 years at a minimum. - That's if we're lucky.
For sure.
We are done for at least a good 3-5 years and a good decade is not out of question. And that's if and only if we can get something resembling an organization put into place.
I 100% disagree. We have plenty more talent here than the normal expansion team, and with the right coaching and some additions to the defense, this could easily be a playoff team next year.
I'm tired of looking at this team w/ rose colored glasses.
We are not good.
Plain and simple. Don't believe me? Look at the record.
Sure, we tore it up last year against pathetic teams but this year proved that all we did last year was beat some really bad teams. Give this team any competition and they will crumble quickly.
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All Pro
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Whether you bring Cowher in here or not, we're an expansion team bro. - It's gonna take another 3 years at a minimum. - That's if we're lucky.
For sure.
We are done for at least a good 3-5 years and a good decade is not out of question. And that's if and only if we can get something resembling an organization put into place.
I 100% disagree. We have plenty more talent here than the normal expansion team, and with the right coaching and some additions to the defense, this could easily be a playoff team next year.
I'm tired of looking at this team w/ rose colored glasses.
We are not good.
Plain and simple. Don't believe me? Look at the record
Sure, we tore it up last year against pathetic teams but this year proved that all we did last year was beat some really bad teams. Give this team any competition and they will crumble quickly.
I lay much of the blame at the feet of the people formerly known as the "coaching staff".
We have much more talent than four years ago. They just aren't being used to their best potential and have been buggered by injuries. I'm not a huge fan of Phil Savage but he has done as well as probably anyone in getting players under contract. Anyone who thinks we can just go out and sign whomever we please because we are the mighty Cleveland Browns is not thinking clearly.
A good head coach who takes no crap or excuses would go a long way to fixing what is broken with the team. Romeo just isn't the guy for the job no matter how nice a guy he might be.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Anyone who thinks we can just go out and sign whomever we please because we are the mighty Cleveland Browns is not thinking clearly
Especially when the fans cheer when their own team is injured 
Until some attitude is brought into the players demeanor and the schemes being used, say what you want, but this organization is falling to the level of Cincinnati....that is if their not already their. People forget when bashing Cincy, they beat us more than we beat them, even when they are really bad, we have trouble with them.
All that was done over the past couple years in making it a place for FAs to want to play, is quickly going out the window. I blame the GM, the inept coaches, and those in the fanbase thatcheer their own players for getting injured......DA is not the first. Can somebody give me a legit reason to want to play for this debacle?
I love all the talk about the Browns tradition, but to fans younger than myself, the tradition has been anything but promising. Losing and jumping ship on the coaches has been the norm, and will continue.
This ain't the "Original Cleveland Browns", and looks like they will never be. Might as well get new uniforms and some cheerleaders, because the tradition was broken years ago. 
#gmstrong
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What screwed us was the combination of Carmen Policy and Dwight Clark. Neither one of them deserved the job they had and their decisions in a head coach and players failed miserably. Because of them we had to start over and while Butch did some good things i think he was in a little over his head as for as how to relate to NFL players which helped cost him his job. Now we have some talent but i think we lack in quality coaching. This team needs a real disciplinarian and staff that can teach.
#gmstrong
Live, Love, Laugh
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Legend
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You want tradition - Yeah, our colors stayed in Cleveland, but our tradition of winning went to Baltimore along with the most important component - the players, and experience that they took with them to pass down to younger generations of Browns players (well, Ravens players)
Couldn't agree more. The Browns have no identity, nothing that defines The Cleveland Browns. When I look at the Steelers, I see a team that plays with intensity and plays with a great deal of pride for their city and fans. The browns currently remind me of the Bengals a few years back. A lot of talent, won some games, but in the end it didn't last, just too many individuals and not team players. We have players such as BE and KW2 who or more concerned with themselves that winning for the city and until we get players who "get" the idea of what it means to play for a city and its fans and not a paycheck, we will continue to lose.
JMHO
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Give this team any competition and they will crumble quickly.
The Giants are 11-1. We were the ones to give them that loss. It wasn't a lucky win because a call went our way. We dominated the game and beat them. If we can do that, I'd like to think there is something there with this team. It forever puzzles me as to why we can beat the Giants, but lose to the Broncos or the Texans.
Who is going to want to come work in Cleveland? The fans turn on every coach we bring in quickly. Before long, no one will want to put up with it. Maybe all these fans that obviously know more about football than RAC or Savage should send Learner their resume.
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Quote:
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Give this team any competition and they will crumble quickly.
The Giants are 11-1. We were the ones to give them that loss. It wasn't a lucky win because a call went our way. We dominated the game and beat them. If we can do that, I'd like to think there is something there with this team. It forever puzzles me as to why we can beat the Giants, but lose to the Broncos or the Texans.
Who is going to want to come work in Cleveland? The fans turn on every coach we bring in quickly. Before long, no one will want to put up with it. Maybe all these fans that obviously know more about football than RAC or Savage should send Learner their resume.
One game this season our stuff clicked.
OR...
The Giants were simply looking past us. I think that's more likely.
It may get to the point where experienced coaches and experienced players will pass on the visit to Cleveland. Experienced coaches will say no thanks to the revolving door there and experienced players will say no thanks to staph infections and revolving doors.
Of course rookie coaches and rookie players will be dying to play anywhere, incl here.
![[Linked Image from i45.tinypic.com]](http://i45.tinypic.com/adhq2o.gif)
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Legend
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It's because we hire first timers for everything. And when a guy who's a first timer needs help, he's getting it from a first timer.  First time GM, first time HC, first time OC (twice), first time DC (twice). This team needs some experience in critical positions. They also need a staff that motivates, inspires, and holds people accountable. We need a GM with a steady hand. I think we are one good draft, and one question mark at QB away from being a very competitive team, but we need the right leadership. And we may get that draft this year and BQ may be the answer to our QB'ing dreams. We are not that far away. We just have to stop hiring first timers. We have a lot fewer question marks today than we did when Savage took over ... and that's a credit to Savage ... now let someone with experience take what we got to the next level.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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^^^ Couldn't agree more.
We've hired inexperienced coaches/personnel and it's showing.
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We are 54-102 since 1999... *sigh*
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We just have to stop hiring first timers. We have a lot fewer question marks today than we did when Savage took over ... and that's a credit to Savage ... now let someone with experience take what we got to the next level.
That's my feeling as well.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think our not having a FO that knows what it takes and also holds EVERYONE accountable (no exceptions, Coaches, players, GMs, etc)
If Cowher is not in the running, I like the ABJ's take on bringing in Pioli (NE) and possibly J. McDaniels (I know, I know, NE...lol). I think that we all see that the money is invested in our offense so maybe we need a coach that is from that side of the ball and I like the idea of a young, progressive coaching candidate. Perhaps we should ask the Rooney's if they agree on the McDaniels hire...lol
BUT 1st and Foremost, I think we should offer Ozzie Newsome the job of President of Football Operations and throw in a minority ownership package. I think the NFL would pressure the Ravens to let Ozzie take it because of the ownership stake.
This way we get a FO that is proven and respected. This is a good start for a young HC. Also, if we go the young candidate route, we must get him veteran coordinators and a savy Asst. HC.
I think this team could pull an Atl or Mia next season, with the right Staff steering the ship of course.
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It's because we are cursed.
The crap we've seen since our Return....The Drive...The Fumble...THE FREAKING MOVE!!! To make things worse the "Old" Browns winning the Super Bowl!
Yes, the answer to your question is that we are CURSED!
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Well, WHY doesn't it come together?
because we are constantly changing coaches?
and why can't we get better coaches?
because we are constantly changing coaches.....
so then why are we constantly changing coaches?
well cause the owner has to do something.....
fans booing players...coaches...chants for new coaches.....cheering when our own players go down...
not to mention suck a$$ media that take everything out of context, and spin stuff for there own personal beliefs...
now don't get me wrong, i think rac's days are done....this team needs the best experienced coach our there.....one that can attract quality coordinators...we are a victim of our own creation....
why don't we have talent?
mostly because of dwight clark and policy....years of wasted picks.....ever wonder why we have been able to pick up so many quality fa's?
because we haven't had to resign our own...
savage is on the right track here imo....he's not perfect, but a team with no talent doesn't whomp the giants....or hold the colts to 3 points...
so when will this team become good....
when we hire a quality coach....who attracts quality coordinators....who get to stay here for 5+ years (no matter what!!!) with a quality gm/personell department
look at all the good teams most have had the same scheme for years....
and lastly......patience as fans.....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Legend
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One of the biggest reasons is because we had zero draft picks for three consecutive seasons while everybody else had access to the pool of talent coming out of college. Take a look at some of the players that were drafted in '96,'97,and '98, and what they mean to their teams now.
But we had additional picks in 99 and 2000 to help cut that deficit somewhat.. The problem is, Clark and Policy had to use those to get out of jail in trades with SF... and the remaining ones were misspent as is evidenced by the fact that not ONE of those players remain with the team, and I can't think of any outside of Northcutt that are even in the league.
Those were wasted years IMO,,,,
We've been trying to dig ourselves out of that hole ever since..
Butch Davis puts together a playoff team, then releases all those guys that got us there for CAP reasons.. He must have thought we were all going to drink the coolaid and that we'd give him more time.. he miscalulated.
Enter the Phil Savage show,,, Phils draft choices and the general way he goes about acquiring talent aren't the worst. He's also had to deal with some adversity along the way (injuriies to star acquistions and such) He also had the unenvieable task of dismantling the team assembled by Butch Davis and his band of merry men.
Talent wise, we have some holes,, no question about it. It's just my opinion, but I think overall we are miles ahead of when Phil got here.. not where we need to be, but closer.
The failure was keeping RAC this extra year... (YES, I wanted him to be here.. man it hurts me to say this because I think of him as great guy and the players seem to love the man and we just came off a 10 win season)
We needed a Brian Billick type personality but one that would allow the front office to get the talent. Just like Billick did in Baltimore. In the end, he got fired, but in the process, won a superbowl.
So basically, I'm of the opinion that talent wise, we are on a decent track (barring any further issues with our QB's that is).
I'm thinking a new coach, someone like Billick or Cowher perhaps.. someone that is tough with the guys... maybe that will do the trick. Not sure, but that seems to be the biggest piece missing to me....
Again, the above is just an opinion..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/c
On the part about booing our own players...it is customary to give applause to an injured athlete who gets up and leaves the playing field.
Now...I am sure some jerks were actually cheering the injury...but many of those people may have simply been applauding his effort and showing appreciation.
Same thing goes for the "Tim Couch booing drama".
Just saying.
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It's because we are cursed.
The crap we've seen since our Return....The Drive...The Fumble...THE FREAKING MOVE!!! To make things worse the "Old" Browns winning the Super Bowl!
Yes, the answer to your question is that we are CURSED!
I'm beginning to think it's just easier to think this way. A million reasons why this team is terrible. The simple answer - we have a curse.
Let's go w/ that for now. Simple and easy answer.
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Legend
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You sound like you are preparing to be a psychiatrist with the way you answer everything someone says with another question.  How does that make you feel?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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Legend
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How does that make you feel?
Well, how do you think it should make me feel? 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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What is it about the Browns franchise that we continually struggle?
Why haven't we, in the 9 years since we've been back, brought in the right personnel, both on the field and in the front office?
Broad question deserves a broad answer....
The answer? We're just not strategic.....
We've been frought with non-stop change in this organization and we jump the gun on far too many moves. We're too reactive. This makes continuity almost impossible and THAT is what makes consistently winning franchises.
I'm not preaching against change. God knows I've hopped aboard the "Can Crennel" bandwagon.
But over the years, it seems that we've made a number of extremely impulsive moves as a franchise that continually sets us back and forces us to rebuild.
Examples..
1. This year, Savage went at the free agency market with the approach of a super bowl contender. The fact is, we didn't even make playoffs last year and had a weak schedule. So...
- We overpaid for an inconsistent #2 WR
- Gave up a second round pick for a 4-3 Lineman that had only one real season of success
- Gave up our third rounder and a starting corner for another 4-3 lineman.
I think everyone can agree that Rogers has been a great pick up and was worth it. However, 1 for 3 don't cut it.
2. The Butch Davis FA spree... Not content to wait, the Browns blew a bunch of cash on FAs and made the playoffs in 2002. The lasting result? Years of cap hell that we just emerged from 2 years ago.
3. The cutting of talented players for no reason.... Kevin Johnson, Antonio Bryant come to mind immediately. I'd take KJ over steptoe right about now.
4. The "gut feeling"...This is a sensitive topic here....so I'll leave it at that.
Now I'm hoping we make some changes in the offseason but I PRAY we don;t blow the whole thing up and we have a chance to continue to build.
if it were me, I'd can Romeo and demote Tucker back to DB coach. Let the new HC bring in his own DC but I'd like to give Chud another year. let's face it....the poor guy hasn;t had alot to work with this year.
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We've been frought with non-stop change in this organization and we jump the gun on far too many moves. We're too reactive. This makes continuity almost impossible and THAT is what makes consistently winning franchises.
The constant is secondary ..what comes first is the bad personnel decisions that were made by imcompetent people when this team started back up..they buried this team, then the changes made never brought the team up...Botch continued in the process of horrible drafts and bad FA aquisitions..
Next with this group we have a coach who's made some bad personnel decisions with his choices of assistants and he has other issues in guiding the team that make him look like he's over his head.
It's about to field a team with a competent HC and assistants who can consistantly put together a winning gameplan.
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We needed a Brian Billick type personality
I feel unclean after reading that.
I've always wondered what it would take for me to completely lose interest in the Browns after 30+ years of cheering my heart out for them.
That arrogant POS Billick as the coach? Yep. That would do it.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Wait,, did you hear me say to get Brian Billick,,,, I said we need that type of guy... Billick is a guy I wouldn't want anywhere near here, but he's got that type of outgoing, kick'em in the pants demeanor,,,, Th at's what I'm talking about..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391 |
I think it's coaching and lack of true NFL experience. We haven't had one coach in the last 10 years with NFL HC on his resume.
Lack of talent and bad draft picks? Maybe. But let's look at teams like Atlanta and Miami. Horrible last year. Everyone was convinced that these teams had no talent, right? Did they completely change their rosters? Nope. They got better coaching/personnel and both are on their way to playing week 18.
Honestly, if a guy is good enough to play at in the NFL, the actual talent level from the best team to the worst team isn't as large as some might like to believe. (yes, there are obvious positional exceptions but overall team talent isn't much different)
Its the coaching and play calling that make a difference.
We don't need any more 1st time head coaches or coordinators. We need people who know what they are doing. Take the talent given to them and shape it.
This is what Lerner doesn't see.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
A couple of years ago I caught wind from my guy in KC that Savage and Billick had some somewhat serious personality conflicts. I'm not inclined to believe Billick would be a consideration for Lerner and Savage.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum I pose the question again: Why do
we continually struggle?
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