DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Instead, we have Wimbley and Oshinowo out of football

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=3741335


Since the voting for this year's Pro Bowl wraps up early next week, it's time to start speculating on who's going to get snubbed. The NFC already looks like it has a logjam at both running back and defensive end, especially since both positions have about six worthy candidates. In the AFC, the biggest question will involve defensive tackle, meaning Baltimore's Haloti Ngata once again might be ignored. And that literally would be a shame if it happened.

The problem for Ngata is that he's having another great year in a conference that is flush with interior talent. We know former Carolina Panthers Pro Bowler Kris Jenkins has been reborn with the New York Jets. We've seen how motivated Shaun Rogers suddenly has become for a Cleveland Browns team that hasn't had much else to smile about this year. We also realize that Tennessee's Albert Haynesworth will get plenty of votes for Defensive Player of the Year and that San Diego nose tackle Jamal Williams has been to three straight Pro Bowls.

But here's what you have to understand about Ngata: He's every bit as talented and as vital to his team's success as those more recognizable names. This year he has produced strong numbers -- 41 tackles, one sack and two interceptions -- for a defense that ranks second overall in the NFL and third against the run.

"He's been a huge part of our success," said Ravens defensive coordinator Rex Ryan. "He's started from day one and he's only gotten better and better. Now I know there are some great defensive tackles in the league, but I wouldn't trade this guy for anybody."

To his credit, Ngata hasn't let his lack of acclaim bother him. He understands that he toils for a defense with high-profile players (like Ray Lewis, Ed Reed and Terrell Suggs) and that he probably wasn't recognizable enough to earn a trip to Hawaii last year. As he said, "I know it's hard to make it to the Pro Bowl, and that's why I just focus on doing my job to help this team win. But I have been hearing a lot more about my chances this year. So I'm starting to feel like people appreciate what I do."

What Ngata does is essentially a little bit of everything for the Ravens. On some downs he'll be asked to occupy blockers so Lewis and his fellow linebackers can roam free to make tackles. On others Ngata will be told to penetrate gaps and blow up plays. Ryan actually became so enamored with Ngata's athleticism -- and this was after the coach watched film of the 6-foot-4, 345-pound defender bowling over opponents as a high school rugby player -- that Ryan added some sets that allow Ngata to blitz.

All these roles have turned Ngata into a favorite during defensive film sessions, and Ryan often hears his players ask for some of Ngata's highlights to be replayed over and over. In fact, one of Ngata's most notable moments came in a 41-13 win over Houston, when he intercepted a Sage Rosenfels pass after dropping into coverage. It also probably won't take long for the Ravens to have some fun with him now that he's a part of Baltimore's goal-line package as well.

These are some of the reasons why Ryan calls Ngata "the kind of player who comes along once every 10 years." Opponents are just as quick to pass out the compliments.

"The guy really is powerful," said New York Giants left tackle Dave Diehl. "And he knows how to use his hands to create problems for offensive linemen. He's the kind of guy who can disrupt an offensive scheme because you can't take the chance of not double-teaming him. And when you do that, he opens up opportunities for somebody else."

The scary thing about Ngata is that he's improving even faster than the Ravens thought he might when they drafted him 12th overall out of Oregon in the 2006 draft. He admits that he was a little hesitant as a rookie because the game moved so quickly.

"I felt lost at first because everything was happening fast and the coaches expected you to learn the plays fast," he said. But once Ngata hit his stride -- which in his estimation happened in the second half of last season -- he became dominant.

Today, Ryan said that Ngata is so knowledgeable about the Ravens' defense that Ngata probably knows exactly what the cornerbacks are doing on every down. Ngata also has found a comfort zone in a Baltimore locker room filled with outsized personalities. For a low-key, soft-spoken guy from Utah, it wasn't easy to be around so many alpha male types at first. But now he'll joke and poke fun whenever he gets a chance to razz a teammate.

Those same players are also quick to sing Ngata's praises to anybody who will listen. They know he does the dirty work and that few people really get to see how productive he is for this team. So now they're hoping he gets his due for one obvious reason: They know their defense wouldn't be nearly as good if he wasn't a part of that unit.

The subject says it all.
My mouth hit the floor when I saw us let the Rats have the guy that I was SURE we were going to take.
That one didn't turn out like expected apparetnly.

To me, this is Savage's 2nd biggest mistake.

..I'm not going to talk about his #1 mistake to save us from going off-topic.

Dammit, we'll never have anyone good at DT! Oh wait, who was that guy who they said might make it so Ngata gets ignored...

Ngata>Wimbley, but Romeo wanted a pass rusher. Instead, it looks like we got neither. You can't fault the guy who bought the groceries on that one, you have to fault the guy who made the list. And anyway, the guy who does the shopping bought us something nice this past offseason.

You can blame both. Savage must have had Wimbley ranked as as good a pass rusher as Ngata was a run-stuffer, or he wouldn't have given Crennel the option, IMO.

To make it more frustrating, I'll contribute this: We could have had Mattias Kiwanuka, Demeco Ryans, Antono Cromartie, Lendale White, Devin Hester, and on and on.

Considering who we drafted, and who we missed out on in the first and second rounds, I'd consider this draft a complete failure.


Here's rounds 1 and 2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NFL_Draft


Round one

Pick # NFL Team Player Position College

1 Houston Texans Mario Williams Defensive End North Carolina State [3]
2 New Orleans Saints Reggie Bush [4] Running back USC
3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young Quarterback Texas [5]
4 New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Offensive Tackle Virginia
5 Green Bay Packers A. J. Hawk Linebacker Ohio State
6 San Francisco 49ers Vernon Davis Tight End Maryland
7 Oakland Raiders Michael Huff Safety Texas
8 Buffalo Bills Donte Whitner Safety Ohio State
9 Detroit Lions Ernie Sims Linebacker Florida State
10 Arizona Cardinals Matt Leinart [6] Quarterback USC
11 Denver Broncos (from St. Louis Rams) [7] Jay Cutler Quarterback Vanderbilt
12 Baltimore Ravens (from Cleveland Browns) [8] Haloti Ngata Defensive Tackle Oregon
13 Cleveland Browns (from Baltimore) Kamerion Wimbley Defensive End Florida State
14 Philadelphia Eagles Brodrick Bunkley Defensive Tackle Florida State
15 St. Louis Rams (from Atlanta Falcons via Denver) Tye Hill Cornerback Clemson
16 Miami Dolphins Jason Allen Safety Tennessee
17 Minnesota Vikings Chad Greenway Linebacker Iowa
18 Dallas Cowboys Bobby Carpenter Linebacker Ohio State
19 San Diego Chargers Antonio Cromartie Cornerback Florida State [9]
20 Kansas City Chiefs Tamba Hali Defensive End Penn State
21 New England Patriots Laurence Maroney Running back Minnesota
22 San Francisco 49ers (from Washington Redskins via Denver) Manny Lawson Linebacker North Carolina State
23 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Davin Joseph Guard Oklahoma
24 Cincinnati Bengals Johnathan Joseph Cornerback South Carolina
25 Pittsburgh Steelers (from New York Giants) Santonio Holmes Wide Receiver Ohio State
26 Buffalo Bills (from Chicago Bears) John McCargo Defensive Tackle North Carolina State
27 Carolina Panthers DeAngelo Williams Running back Memphis
28 Jacksonville Jaguars Marcedes Lewis Tight End UCLA
29 New York Jets (from Denver via Atlanta) Nick Mangold Center Ohio State
30 Indianapolis Colts Joseph Addai Running back LSU
31 Seattle Seahawks Kelly Jennings Cornerback Miami (Florida) [10]
32 New York Giants (from Pittsburgh) Mathias Kiwanuka Defensive End Boston College


[edit] Round two
Pick # NFL Team Player Position College
33 Houston DeMeco Ryans Linebacker Alabama
34 Cleveland (from New Orleans) D'Qwell Jackson Linebacker Maryland
35 Washington (from New York Jets) Rocky McIntosh Linebacker Miami (Florida)
36 New England (from Green Bay) Chad Jackson Wide Receiver Florida
37 Atlanta (from San Francisco via Denver and Green Bay) Jimmy Williams Cornerback Virginia Tech
38 Oakland Thomas Howard Linebacker UTEP
39 Philadelphia (from Tennessee) Winston Justice Offensive Tackle Southern California
40 Detroit Daniel Bullocks Safety Nebraska [11]
41 Arizona Taitusi Lutui Guard Southern California
42 Chicago (from Buffalo) Danieal Manning Safety Abilene Christian
43 New Orleans (from Cleveland) Roman Harper Safety Alabama
44 New York Giants (from Baltimore) Sinorice Moss Wide Receiver Miami (Florida)
45 Tennessee (from Philadelphia) LenDale White Running back Southern California
46 St. Louis Joe Klopfenstein Tight End Colorado
47 Green Bay (from Atlanta) Daryn Colledge Offensive Tackle Boise State
48 Minnesota Cedric Griffin Cornerback Texas
49 New York Jets (from Dallas) Kellen Clemens Quarterback Oregon
50 San Diego Marcus McNeill Offensive Tackle Auburn
51 Minnesota (from Miami) Ryan Cook Center New Mexico
52 Green Bay (from New England) Greg Jennings Wide Receiver Western Michigan
53 Dallas (from New York Jets) Anthony Fasano Tight End Notre Dame
54 Kansas City Bernard Pollard Safety Purdue
55 Cincinnati Andrew Whitworth Offensive Tackle LSU
56 Baltimore (from New York Giants) Chris Chester Center Oklahoma
57 Chicago Devin Hester Cornerback Miami (Florida)
58 Carolina Richard Marshall Cornerback Fresno State
59 Tampa Bay Jeremy Trueblood Offensive Tackle Boston College
60 Jacksonville Maurice Jones-Drew Running back UCLA
61 Denver Tony Scheffler Tight End Western Michigan
62 Indianapolis Tim Jennings Cornerback Georgia
63 Seattle Darryl Tapp Defensive End Virginia Tech
64 Minnesota (from Pittsburgh) Tarvaris Jackson Quarterback Alabama State

I try not to dwell on draft picks that in hindsight, were failures. Not many here were criticial of the Wimbley pick during his first season, IIRC.
it is easy NOW to say that Phil screwed up by taking Kam over other guys. Hindsight is wonderful – that's why everyone loves it so much.

WOW,, all that second guessing and hindsight..

Ngata turned into a pretty darn great player... No doubt,,

But nobody was complaining about Wimbley after his rookie season, Were they..

For the fun of it, I looked up 2005 here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NFL_Draft

No big deal, it's not like we drafted Braylon Edwards when Demarcus Ware, Shaun Merriman, Luis Castillo, and Logan Mankins were still on the board.

As for the 3rd round, it's not like we drafted Charlie Frye when Justin Tuck, Marion Barber, or Brandon Jacobs, were still on the board.

-Yeah, you can consider 2005 a complete failure also.

Don't worry, we'll comment on 2007 in a couple years, and there's no doubt in my mind that 2007 will eventually be regarded as a complete failure.


I'd comment on 2004, but that was Butch Davis's mess. -I'm glad we drafted Winslow in the top 10 though, considering that the Steelers picked Heath Miller in the high 20's a year later. - We sure wound up with the better tight end.

Everyone knows that to win in the NFL,you need to be able to run the ball and rush the passer.Stopping the run is irrelevant.

Given the state of the Browns, posts like this are appropriate. The NFL draft is the best scale to use when judging how successful/unsuccessfull Phil Savage has been as General Manager of the Browns. Hindsight, in this discussion, is the best tool to use.
Hindsight tells us that Phil Savage generally hasn't done a good job evaluating talent. Hindsight also tells us that it is in the best interest of the Cleveland Browns to no longer allow Phil Savage to recruit or contract players for this football team.

Does it make sense to cry and moan about it like we are? - No.
But, the NFL draft is a good place to start when building an argument against Phil Savage as GM of the Cleveland Browns.

Wow, Muni, you have tough standards. If a GM doesn't pick the best possible player at every slot in the draft, he's a failure? By those standards, every draft ever is a failure, including the Ravens' 06 draft. Chris Chester in the 2nd?! When Devin Hester and Maurice Jones-Drew were available?! David Pittman in the 3rd?!?! They could've had Freddie Keiaho or Max Jean-Giles!!

Indeed

Wasn't speaking of personal accountability, no. Not sure what you mean but it's been a long day for me so that means nil that I don't follow you......g'nite Irene......

Big guys with GREAT talent are rare.....

LB's are a little different... You can get a mediocre LB to fill in ie. Hall (lol).

Yeah, but, when are we ever going to have another chance to draft a guy with a name like Babatunde Oshinowo?

Sure, he's out of the league, but it was worth it just to have a guy on the roster that you could nickname "Babs."

i'm sorry but Looking at the rest of that first round i don't think wimbley was that bad of a pick, there aren't alot of players that set the world on fire in round 1 in that draft.

The reality is Toad he should have listened to Rac but it should have been layed out better..

What Phil should have done(and yes it annoys people but I don't care) ..is tell Rac..you don't have a solid line..we can't stop the run..it starts up front..let me get you a run stuffer first..then I'll come back in round two and three and get your pass rusher, and some LB's..there were tweeners throughout the draft..

Come that second round..he had plenty of tweeners to select from..Darryl Tapp could have been drafted and slotted where Jackson is now..
He and Dumervil were the two I really wanted.

Later he could taken Wilkerson the OLB the Giants got in the third..or Dumveril...the Broncos tweener they use as a pass rusher..they got him later ..
We could have had it and not moved up..

For a 34 your college OLB's generally can be moved inside and the small DE's are slotted to be the OLB's..I know you know that, but it just seemed like Phil went away from the blueprint in that draft..

I remember him saying that players like Tapp/Dumveril were projected by the Browns to be inside players..
My feeling was that it was more of a excuse..because they took Wimbley(Phil had scouted him well before 06) and felt the other guys were useless in our scheme...but how could they have been useless or not fit in??

Well they messed up their evaluation and projections because Tapp could have been used on the inside and Dumveril as a pass rusher..the speed rusher..and a OLB..thats how the Bronco's use him..
I distinctly remember having some lengthly discussions with Mourg about that..
While I understood why he made the move I didn't like it..I was highly disappointed and I said that on draft day.

I didn't like Ozzie getting the impact run stuffer he wanted..and he basically called Phil's bluff ..give up a meanless pick and was very smug about it..that one still gnaws at me..because Wimbley had a great rookie season and has regressed..
What also annoys me as much as Shep is annoyed at hindsight is the fact that some who wanted Ngata started trashing him after we got Wimbley.. because of the stuff said that he was injury prone, and took plays off..

Any doubts with the aquisitions we have now on the line that he'd be a force at DE with Rodgers in the middle???

Dang we wouldn't have needed to use a second rounder to get Corey Williams.

Bottom line is we didn't utilize the assets in the 06 draft to benefit the defense to the maximum it needed..
.

What is troubling to me is Savage had Wimbly and Nagata rated the same.

He gave his coach a choice because he had them rated the same.

Savage has roster control. If he had Nagata rated a better prospect, then he should have taken the better prospect.

Savage blew it in his scouting and allowing Romeo to influence the selection.....and I don't blame Romeo for that....he said he would prefer a pass rusher...honest evaluation...he may not have even know what players were in the mix.

jc..


Woulda coulda.... I could be a millionaire, if I only knew the numbers before I bought my ticket.

Well if anyone forgot what precipiated this..it was Phil who made a run at the Lions OLB Kalimba Edwards..who couldn't decide and then his father made the decision for him..
So that hole is what Rac wanted filled..but the fact is..we needed to fix the middle of the line first ..that was the real weak part..
There were plenty of tweeners in that 06 but I'm going to say that since Phil had scouted Wimbley for two prior years..he liked him and when Rac convientially said he wanted a pass rusher..Phil made the move.

But like I said that should have been tempered by the real weakness..the lack of being able to stop the run..

But even Rac should have looked over his D and said while we might look better coming out with a passer, we might be better if I got a run stuffer first ..

Now while it played into Phil's concept..it's been said that he values Dlinemen less than LB's..well 34 linemen ..especially NT's are very hard to find..as we have found out ,most are scrubs..
34 LB's are easier to find in the draft.. now, not only do we need to replace Davis, we've got to get a upgrade on the edge.

I get annoyed because if it is done reasonably well the team could be stronger in areas where it is weak.
I'm not trashing Phil(I know you'd luv that) but I point out mistakes as I see them ..and you know as well as most how critical I am about the draft..

J/C. If most of you remember, Savage held a press conference stating that he also had signed Bentley to block Ngata as well, which is why he let the Rats go after him and instead took Wimbley. If he had known how that was going to turn out do you think he would have done it?

Second guessing is easy to do two years later.

Quote:

---

I have been complaining about him.....he sucks.

I asked the question about the Wimbley experiment being a failure.

---

I didn't hear you complaining after his rookie season... Nobody was complaining. 11 sacks in his rookie campaign.. damn man, we were all talking Defensive rookie of the year potential.

What's happened since is a mystery...

No one was complaining but it was still brought by just a few about the move..I did..I'm not afraid to..

Whats transpired with KW is not a mystery..it's been analized time and again..he's not strong against the run..he never was..he was new..no offenses had a book on him..so he was a surprise..now, teams know his move..he has been used primarily as a hands down on the turf pass rusher.
Now they know they need to stand him up and move him around...
Wow took three years to do that?

My main gripe is he gets sealed to the inside on plays run in his direction.

Wimbley isn't a guy who can defeat a LT every play with his hand down like RAC's insisted he do for 3 years. But he's a very good athlete who has excellent value in a more creative scheme.

I think we get a new coach, go back to the 3-4, and Wimbley goes back to DE.