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I just saw on my Beloved Fox News that Pelosi, Dirty Harry Reid and someone else ( maybe Dowd ) are demanding Congress bailout the Big Three. The way I understand it is the American people are dead set against it. We want them to crash and restructer but the libs know whats best. A bunch of us were sitting around in my buddy's garage drinking beer and hiding from our wives when one guy ( an Auto worker ) said his Union was ready to cut some wages as long as management did the same. I thought that sounded reasonable until he added that they already gave up "Free Legal ". I'm a union guy but Come on Dude, Free Legal? How do the rest of you feel about this touchy subject? Do you feel the Dems should at least consider the wishes of the American people? 
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As an American , living overseas , I guess I view things differently. ( to say the least ) . Some months back " Peen " talked about 1930 depression type unemployment ( 20-25 % ) as a real possibility !!!!!!! .. I am afraid it is going to take a drama like that to get everyone on the same page ( Biz- Govt & the people ) ..
By the way , it still takes me 10-15 min. to get through to a real person every time I have to call a Company ( Corp ) in the States , real customer service ? ? Have a complaint ; Try and get it taken care of... Quality ?... And the list goes on & on ..
This is more than Management and Union , it is all about how far out bounds the whole society has spun..
When I hear politicians like Barny Franks , Waters and crew I just cringe ..
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Legend
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The way I understand it is the American people are dead set against it. We want them to crash and restructer but the libs know whats best.
I have no idea where you got that.. I'd say the majority are for some kinda LOAN to the auto industry...
As for the unions, your friend giving up free legal is nothing.. What they are going to have to do is recind work rules that make it difficult to be as productive as the foreign car makers.. they are going to have to cut back on wages as well.. That free legal crap,, man I can't believe anyone with a brain would consider that a big give back........
I'm all for giving them money to help them out of this crisis.. some of it is at thier own doing, some of it is not. The credit crisis has them unable to sell cars.. same is true for Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Subaru as well.. all thier sales numbers are down.
The difference is that those companies have the cash to sit and hold on for better econmic times.. the Big Three do not.
And that my friend is what it boils down too..
So, we can argue this till the cows come home,, but if you want to see a full blown depression,, let the domestic auto makers fail....
And please don't tell me that Bankruptcy is the answer either.. Are you going to buy a car from a company that is in Chapter 11 restructuring knowing that they may not survive to honor thier warranty? Or that they may not be here to manufacture replacement or repair parts?
But, having said all of that, I'm NOT for giving them one red cent if they, the unions and suppliers aren't willing to make the needed sacrifices to bring things more in line with reality and more in line with the cost structrue of the Hondas, Toyotas and the Nissans of the world.
If they won't do that, then they are doomed....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
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j/c
The more I look into congress, the more upset I get with them.
They work less than half a year. They have more "district work sessions" than work days almost. Of course, Sat. and Sunday are off, but so are Monday and Friday.
How in the hell can these people do us justice when they work only 3 days a week? They get august off, and a week at a time on every holiday.
Yet they complain about the jobs bank at the auto companies?????????
Someone, somehow, needs to make congress aware that THEIR easy days are over. And spending OUR tax money aint' going to cut it anymore.
Most of the congress people have absolutely NO idea about what it takes to run a business, yet here they are, doling out money to all this different companies. Do they have absolutely NO clue? I think they don't. Congress' only concern is "how do I get enough votes to get re-elected?"
Congress needs to go. The members of congress need to be fired.
Okay, now that that is over: I can see both sides of the loans and bailout for the auto industry. Changes need to be made in their business practice, without a doubt. Congress has no business being in charge of it though.
Will loaning them money help them change to a continuing business entity, or will it only delay the collapse?
Oh, not just speaking about the auto industry here, but: the collapse is coming. Congress is currently looking in the eye of a nation that is on the verge of collapse and all it can do is throw fake money at the problem. They have no clue what the other problems are that they have created, and may continue to create.
We are screwed.
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At this time, the GOP is using the auto workers jobs as a political football, playing their political games with the worker's jobs.
Those saying the Big 3 should not be bailed out are those who lost in the last elections..mainly the GOP.
But we have a "LAME DUCK" congress now with the GOP still having enough votes to stop any possible agreement by filibustering.
The phony claim that US auto workers were making $70 per hour helped many Americans form their opinion against helping the Auto Companies.
All we have to do is look at who is opposing the loans...they are for the most part, GOP, anti-union, anti-Obama/Dem...and they are lame ducks! All of that translates into "playing politics" with the UAW, GM, Chrysler and Ford and the lives of the workers and their families.
A best case scenario would be to keep the companies solvent until the Dems take over on Jan 20.
The politics will likely continue but the changes in power within Congress will favor helping the auto workers and the Big 3 hammer out an agreement that will save the United States Auto Industry.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
At this time, the GOP is using the auto workers jobs as a political football, playing their political games with the worker's jobs.
The GOP is doing this? Interesting.Quote:
Those saying the Big 3 should not be bailed out are those who lost in the last elections..mainly the GOP.
And your proof is? Or was that just your opinion?
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But we have a "LAME DUCK" congress now with the GOP still having enough votes to stop any possible agreement by filibustering.
Lame duck congress? Not sure how you get that.....the dems have the majority. If you want to make this a party war, well, why haven't the dems succeeded?
See, mac, it's not a party issue. At all.
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The phony claim that US auto workers were making $70 per hour helped many Americans form their opinion against helping the Auto Companies.
Phony.......yes and no. Actually, $78 was the number being bandied about - not $70. And, when you get right down to brass tacks, no, that is not what the average worker made in INCOME, but yes, it IS what the average worker earned in income AND BENEFITS. Throw in the "workers" in the jobs bank............and presto, there's your problem.
Hey, sorry. The guys in the jobs bank do NOT deserve to get 90% of their wages for sitting on their bumpkins. Nope. No how, no way. The rest of this country is tired of paying for the non workers. Like it or not, THAT is the reason american citizens are against the loans.
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All we have to do is look at who is opposing the loans...they are for the most part, GOP, anti-union, anti-Obama/Dem...and they are lame ducks! All of that translates into "playing politics" with the UAW, GM, Chrysler and Ford and the lives of the workers and their families.
Again, funny you bring this up. Care to show us a reputable source that shows the reblicans are holding this back? I'll be waiting for that.
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A best case scenario would be to keep the companies solvent until the Dems take over on Jan 20.
Why? The dems already have the house and senate, don't they? Why wait until Jan. 20th? Lemme guess:; they will have even MORE of a majority, so they can then promise tax money to anyone and everyone, and no one will have to pay for it except the filthy rich, right? 
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The politics will likely continue but the changes in power within Congress will favor helping the auto workers and the Big 3 hammer out an agreement that will save the United States Auto Industry.
Throwing money at a problem isn't going to fix it, sir. No how, no way.
And throwing tax money at a problem has only lead to bigger problems, if you follow history at all.
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You know, for someone who constantly knocks my negative attitude towards American government...  What a mess. This whole thing reminds me of the Soviet Union collapsing on itself...dumping money they didn't have into their military to show might...instead of tanks, we have banks. And now cars. The system broke for a reason, and it wasn't for lack of funds.
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Legend
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What a mess. This whole thing reminds me of the Soviet Union collapsing on itself
I find it incredible that you say that Go back and think about it.. Ronald Reagan and the republican party took lots of credit for the fall of the USSR in the 80's... Remember this: "Mr. Gorbachav, Take down this wall" (poorly spelled and paraphrased, but you get the drift)
Remember also, Russia had been fighting a war in Afganistan for quite a few years.. the war cost them billions.
Oddly enough, we are fighting a war in Iraq and Afganistan and look at our financial situation. This war is costing us 10 Billion a month...
No, it's not exactly the same,, but isn't it Ironic that we are fighting an expensive war and losing financial ground in the USA. Just like Russia did two decades ago....
At least we have a new President that wants to find a smart way out of that expensive war and focus on HOME.... My hope is that he will succeed.. in fact, we all better hope he does.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
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1st String
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Just clicking here is my take on it. I can see both sides of the debate. If the automakers are not bailed out., GM and Chrysler will surely fail and enter chapter 11. There is considerable doubt that a car company would survive chapter 11. Who is going to buy a car from a company that may not be there to honor the warranty or make replacement parts? In November alone auto sales dropped 37%. Just imagine what their auto sales would be like if they were actually in chapter 11. There is very good chance that millions of jobs would be lost. Not a very appealing situation. On the other hand according to their senate testimonies, the loaning of 25 to 34 billion dollars will only float these companies through the end of March. It is estimated that it will take at least 75 to 125 billion dollars to get these companies back on their feet over the next two years. There is also no grantee that this will work and that they will just stave off the inevitable and we will be back to scenario one. Also, not an appealing situation. To add insult to injury and more fuel to the fire, congress already has passed the 700 billion dollar TARP legislation. This legislation has been met with mixed results. It did stop a complete and utter meltdown of the financial system, but had very poor oversight. Banks are not failing anymore, but they are not lending either. The fed gave the tarp money as a carrot to try and help the banks start lending again. However, Fed Chairman Bernake did not retain a stick to make sure that it was used appropriately. The TARP money has stabilized the financial sector, but has turned into a PR nightmare for congress. Congress is outraged about how the money is being spent, but they did not build in the necessary oversight make sure that the spirit of the law was carried out. They realize that most of the country sees them as fools, who got proverbially taken to the cleaners by the banking system. As a result they are being extra cautious with the auto industry. They do not want to be left standing there, with their pants down again. They are paralyzed by the fear of making another mistake and do not want to act, because it would put their careers on the line. They want Obama or Bush to step up and make the decision. They do not want to put their necks on the line. That’s how I see the situation in Washington at the moment. My feelings are as such. It is a catch 22 no matter which way you go. In personally listening to the senate committee hearing on the auto industry, I did not get a very good picture of the future of the auto industry. That being said, I do not think that you can allow them to fail. Republicans love to talk about trickle down economics. This would be a wonderful example of it in a negative way. The loss of jobs and revenue for not just the auto industry, but all the businesses where the autoworkers spend their money would be catastrophic. The industry needs retooled, but we must do it in a controlled way. The entire production paradigm needs to be rethought. It is a sad fact, but the industries will need to retract, and people are going to lose their jobs. I think that the federal government has to make sure that they survive. The hit on the economy would be too great otherwise. As hard a pill to swallow as it is, I would give the auto industry the 34 million dollars they ask. I really like the idea of appointing an oversight board to make sure that the money is being spent appropriately. In the meantime a comprehensive plan will have to be drawn and implanted that will keep these companies alive. You just cannot let them fail. The unemployment benefits for all of the laid off workers might be worse.
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3 thoughts ... One; instead of providing free cash to the Big Three, why not incentify new car sales with big tax incentives (Schedule A deductions, Tax credits, Sales tax moratoriums, etc) to the consumer? Two; challenge the UAW to answer the question as to why a Toyota should be able to be made in Georgia at a $46.00 per hour labor rate, while GM, Ford, or Chrysler cars made in Michigan costs $81.00 per hour? Three; whatever you do, DO NOT allow the government to become a partner in the manufacture of automobiles. These are the lame-o's that gave us FEMA, the Post Office, the VA, and scores of other totally ineffectual bureaucracies. They will have us all driving 46 MPG death-trap-Yugos by the year 2020.
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When they talk about the labor costs to the big three, they generally add in costs to the retired workforce. The totals are a combination of retiree benefits and current employee wages and benefits. The Japanese companies are a new workforce and don't have that burden at this time.
Additionally, the Japanese companies have the monoploly on their products at home. Loss in sales in this country doesn't hurt them as bad. Honda's numbers are dropping faster than GM's numbers are, but they still have an intact sales base in Japan.
This same type of thing happened less than 10 years ago with IBM. The company just could not compete with the burden of their retirees, so they dumped a lot of the pension benefits. IBM managed to do it on their own, but they had a different union to deal with and much less regulation in their industry.
I have a lot of doubt as to whether the bailout plan will work. It depends largely on the amount of cooperation they get from the union. I do think the union understands that without some concessions, all the people they represent will be unemployed, and the union itself will become defunct, so I expect some concessions.
I also much prefer a bailout of solid US companies with a very large workforce over a bailout of banking institutions which we would have been better off without in the first place. A sizable portion of the auto industrie's problems came from the government through regulation and trade policy and the unions through benefit packages that were excessive to say the least.
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Legend
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Quote:
One; instead of providing free cash to the Big Three, why not incentify new car sales with big tax incentives (Schedule A deductions, Tax credits, Sales tax moratoriums, etc) to the consumer?
Two problems with that.. 1. Will the domestic auto industry survive without the Loan Money? It doesn't appear so. 2. I'm convinced there are folks out there willing to buy cars right now, but there are two things standing in the way,, job security and the ability to obtain credit to buy the new car.
Giving a tax break won't help either of those two problems.
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Two; challenge the UAW to answer the question as to why a Toyota should be able to be made in Georgia at a $46.00 per hour labor rate, while GM, Ford, or Chrysler cars made in Michigan costs $81.00 per hour?
The UAW answers back with a comment like "the banks were given bailout money with no repayment terms and very few conditions, why should the american auto makers be treated differently" That's the way the have kinda been answering that question and to me, it's got some merit.
But still, the question remains as to the cost differences. The answer of course is entitlements and legacy costs and of course, the toughest work rules on the planet.
If the UAW would relax the work rules,,, it would go a long way to reducing the hourly cost of manufacturing a domestic car. Here's a news flash for the unions.. make the changes or die an ugly death..... count on it.
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Three; whatever you do, DO NOT allow the government to become a partner in the manufacture of automobiles. These are the lame-o's that gave us FEMA, the Post Office, the VA, and scores of other totally ineffectual bureaucracies. They will have us all driving 46 MPG death-trap-Yugos by the year 2020.
Two reasons that won't happen.. 1. The governement isn't trying to run the car companies.. but they are taking some ownership in them.. and oversight is a big issue... 2. If the government does what you expect and forces the Domestic Auto Industry to make only 45 MPG Yogos,, I'll be driving a Honda, Toyota or Nissan instead of my Trailblazer.. I would guess you would also.
So the automakers would still go out of business.
It occured to me the other day while listening to the Big Three CEO's testify at those hearings... They are thinking wrong.. They are saying they are going to move towards greener cars,, more Fuel Efficent cars.. and that's a good thing, but it appears that are planning on a complete abandonment of what seperates them from Honda and the like.
American Muscle Cars will always have a place.. Perhaps not as prominent as they once were,, but still, a place. That's one type.
Also the big, off road, 4 wheel drives cars that are so popular in the Northern states.. That's another type that, according to the big three CEO's will go away. (not tomorrow, but over time)
The type of cars that the big three make aren't the total problem.. It's the cost of making them that's a problem.. To many layers adding to the overall cost to design, test and make an american car vs a honda or toyota for instance.
Look at Honda, Toyota and Nissan as an example.. They are experiencing the same levels of sales drops as Ford and GM and Chrysler... As a percentage that is.. it's not the type of car, it's the economy, the lack of credit (where's that money we gave the banks going anyway).
You wanna fix the car industry and the housing industry? I do! Then quit giving money to Car companies and bank and insurance companies..
lend the money directly to the people.. in other words,, Get the guy that is bordering on good and bad credit a car loan.. hell you can even say,, it's got to be a domestic car if you want. Get that same guy a 30 or 40 year fixed rate mortgage so he can buy the lean off his house before he looses it to foreclosure...
Hell, if you had your choice,, would you trust american business or american people... I'd take the people at this point.. the companies have done nothing but show contempt for us all.
But that's just the ramblings of a lubricated mind...... ignore me!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
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Unfortuantely, as in the banking mess, I see anything discussed as merely postponing the inevitable.
It is an incredible mess, and one that is being treated for symptoms instead of at the root cause. We have so many huge industries that need remade and reworked into a workable model ..... yet this is unlikely to occur. We try to patch things up .... and hope .... hope ... hope .. that things will improve. The only way things will improve is for either major downsizing to occur ..... or a world war to break out, requiring massive and immediate manufacturing. I suspect that downsizing will have to be the way to go.
Right now, auto makers in general, and GM in particular, are manufacturing more cars than they will sell at a profit. They are dumping numbes into the market in an attempt to generate cash flow that will allow them some illusion of solvency. Their business model is broken, and needs reworked. It's not a pleasant thought for those in the field .... but having a slightly lower paying job is better than having no job. Unfortunately, even this this may no longer be enough. The Big 3 employ somewhere in the range of a quarter million US workers combined. Even if each and every worker gave up $4 per hour .... that's only roughly $2 billion per year savings. (based on a 40 hour week, without overtime) The Big 3 are asking for tens of billions. Debt service almost has to be a huge part of the equation .. and in that case, I'm not so sure that adding more debt is the answer.
I feel that the long run will see a merger of some type between one or more of the Big 3 ..... or a failure of one or more of them. I am coming around to the thought that it is almost inevitable. The business model is broken ..... and I don't see a feasable remedy on the horizon. Unfortunately, the US taxpayer will, once again, be stuck holding the bag. (or an ever lighter wallet, as the case may be)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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At this time, the GOP is using the auto workers jobs as a political football, playing their political games with the worker's jobs.
I find that very difficult to believe and I hope all in Congress are asking realistic and pointed questions off all parties involved in this mess, including labor. I have not had a chance to watch C-Span on this round of talks, but based on the Detroit Three's last pitiful attempt with cup in hand I would hope that they actually had a plan as to how to get through this, especially since the Committee had to demand it. I have heard that Ford did come to the table with something viable.
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said his Union was ready to cut some wages as long as management did the same
That is likely key in my very humble opinion. It should all be about cost per unit at this point. All I have heard form Capitol Hill and our President Elect is executive compensation. Again as I stated I have missed most of this week's events and perhaps the UAW and Congress recognize the seriousness of this.
When this discussion was in the "Presidential Election" section of the board I acknowledged that I work for Honda. While auto workers with the Detroit Three are my competitors, they are also brothers of sorts (if that is the right way to put it). Decades before I was hired at Honda the struggles of organized labor realized a decent wage for auto workers and I have certainly benefited. The wages have, and always should be, tied to what can be substantial profit of an auto company. The Detroit Three are now all operating at a loss and all involved need to adjust their compensation for them to survive. I believe that stands with or without government intervention. I do not wish a pay cut on anyone, but I will say that if my Company has to propose this, I will accept it in the name of job security.
I do not know if a hand out or some type of structured bankruptcy is the answer, but I obviously do believe that either needs to address compensation that is commensurate to each companies financial condition.
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Dawg Talker
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Let them go bankrupt.
Reorgazine, hire as many execs from Honda & Toyota that you can and get rid of the unions.
Then the 'big 3' might have a shot at actually turning a profit sometime.
The problem here is management that has dug a big hole and unions that killed any chance of the co's making a profit. Need to dump both to have a shot at this again.
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Dawg Talker
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why is is always just the unions?
its not management? or the gov't?
or the shareholders and stockmarket?
the entire system is broken, and it goes far beyond the workers...
those companies operated against each other....there was no foreign competition.....they had pleny of cash to support the retirees....
now with plant closings, outsourcing, and downsizing, you have fewer workers than ever before...outsourcing and downsizing had to have made huge profits for these companies....where did it go?
probably ceo's and shareholders mostly....then to the workers...
the other big problem is loss of market share....honda and toyota are smart...they got there foot in the door, and built factories on our soil...they make good cars...
once gm and chevy started losing market share, paying the legacy bene's became a huge problem.....honda and toyota will never have this problem as they don't have pensions...
but what do you do? stop the pensions? those workers payed in....they should get it...convert all the current workers to 401k's maybe, but thats alot of people that would get screwed....
then you have lack of tarrif's and our inability to build factories in places like japan...thats horse crap....they protect there auto industry....we should protect ours...
our country has sold out for cash....American companies should be competing against American companies....screw the foreigners..
mexico and china with there crappy wages, and working conditions...why don't we slap some tarrifs on the stuff thats coming into our country from these countrys....sure prices will go up in the short term....but you can bet your bottom dollar, that American companies will be producing again...
i think these bailouts are stupid....our gov't doesn't have the cash to lend....lets all form a company that does nothing but put our kids thru college, and then go ask for a bailout, or we'll go under....run the presses....make some more fake cash...
were all screwed....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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All Pro
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The Stakes for Ohio are huge in this. This could hit so many of more jobs outside the Big 3 in our state for sure. I think Ohio right now is about 7% 
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Hall of Famer
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did we figure out who killed the electric car? 
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Dawg Talker
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why is is always just the unions?
its not management? or the gov't?
or the shareholders and stockmarket?
It's not just the unions. BUT they did not help the situation.
Management is just as much at fault.
The gov't is not at fault at all. They are not around to tell businesses how to run. Now, apparently they are in the business of saving companies.
Stockholders own the company and as owners, they are #1 priority. That's part of being an owner. With that said, they've taken a huge bath in this mess as well.
It's not pretty but no point of saving these poorly run and managed companies at this point. Let'em fail and come out of bankruptcy leaner and stronger. People will lose jobs, but that's life.
Creating more and more gov't debt obligations is becoming a huge slippery slope.
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The gov't is not at fault at all. They are not around to tell businesses how to run. Now, apparently they are in the business of saving companies.
here is where i disagree whole-heartedly...they do tell businesses how to run.....
you've got the epa for one.....foreign companies don't have to follow those rules...
they have wage and working conditions laws....foreign companies don't have to follow those
how about nafta, the wto....ever hear of the vat tax....
our gov't gave all this to foreign countries...once they did this it put any American company that hire Americans at a disadvantage....once one company moves out to "make more profit" the rest have to follow suit, or lose market share....it was a huge chain reaction....not only did we lose taxes from those companies and workers, but we lost our nationality...
Made in America used to mean something.....the best.....now its a tag-line....
and you know what really cracks me up....all these geniuses moved there companies out, and now there are less and less buyers for there products because people just don't have the cash....
our gov't let the foreign car companies in no questions asked....sure they build great cars, but our car companies were put at risk....and now this country will pay the price...were gonna have gm owned by the chinese probably...maybe we should lease out the white house too...
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Stockholders own the company and as owners, they are #1 priority. That's part of being an owner. With that said, they've taken a huge bath in this mess as well.
yep...they are a victim of there own damn creation....
cracks me up when i see companies laying off workers to appease the stock holders....cause profits were not what was expaected.....God forbid if a company only makes a 20 million dollar profit for the quarter when they were supposed to make 21 million....
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It's not pretty but no point of saving these poorly run and managed companies at this point. Let'em fail and come out of bankruptcy leaner and stronger. People will lose jobs, but that's life.
this issue has me torn....i don't want to see anyone lose there job....and i don't have the knowledge to say they are ran poorly or not..the biggest problem seems to be the legacy costs...how do you fix that? tell them all tough luck?
i really don't believe in bailouts either...but damn, the gov't was sure quick at bailing out the bankers....no questions asked...no oversight.....friggin' 700 billion....why didn't all those poorly ran companies get to fail?
like i said before, the biggest thing that irks me, is the gov't don't have the cash...if they borrow then the foreigners buy more of our companies...if they print it, then we get inflation.....
i can't see how this can continue....
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The gov't is not at fault at all. They are not around to tell businesses how to run. Now, apparently they are in the business of saving companies.
It's funny,, The government deregulates certain industries,, then those industries run amock and falter because they can basically do as they please and then the Greed of a few take over..
But the Governement is not at fault?
Well, they aren't.. but they created the circumstances in which these things could happen.. and you might ask why they did that?
Simple, they were lobbied to do it. They are courted and cajoled into it. Our representitives took gifts and kickbacks and cash and were swayed to allow things to happen...
No, the government isn't at fault,, just those we elect are!
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Two problems with that.. 1. Will the domestic auto industry survive without the Loan Money? It doesn't appear so. 2. I'm convinced there are folks out there willing to buy cars right now, but there are two things standing in the way,, job security and the ability to obtain credit to buy the new car.
Giving a tax break won't help either of those two problems.
Bingo....... A big part of the problem right now is the banks. Hell I had a woman with a 835 credit score, 25 percent debt -to-income ratio, and 7,500 down payment TURNED down for a loan the other day 
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Bingo....... A big part of the problem right now is the banks. Hell I had a woman with a 835 credit score, 25 percent debt -to-income ratio, and 7,500 down payment TURNED down for a loan the other day
That has to be the most disappointing thing about the TARP money. Banks got free money to lend to investors, but instead of taking any risk with house money they are just sitting on it.
I said it wrong earlier. It is Henry Paulson who controlled the tarp money and he did a wonderful job of distributing it, but a horrible job of making sure that it was used correctly.
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Bingo....... A big part of the problem right now is the banks. Hell I had a woman with a 835 credit score, 25 percent debt -to-income ratio, and 7,500 down payment TURNED down for a loan the other day
Now that's, on the surface, an extremely credit worthy individual..Why would any bank turn her down.. doesn't make sense.. Unless they just don't want to loan the money to anyone..
We have a dealer up here in aurora,,, Bob Serpentini Chevy, that advertises guaranteed Credit Approval in 30 minutes... how can he do that if a lady like you describe can't get a car loan..
I guess I have to ask GM,, what reason did the bank give for turning her down.. to me, I'm astounding by that..
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It is Henry Paulson who controlled the tarp money and he did a wonderful job of distributing it, but a horrible job of making sure that it was used correctly
Is that really the problem? I'm truly asking because I don't know.
I've been laboring under the impression that a person with Good Credit and solid employment could get credit to buy a car or house or whatever.. and if you look at what GM just posted,, well, that doesn't seem to be completely true..
So, what are the banks doing with this money we gave them?
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So, what are the banks doing with this money we gave them?
from what i've read they are using it to shore up there balance sheets....meaning replacing the cash they lost from all the defaults...and saving it incase there are more defaults...
its a joke....all they did was take care of their banker buddies, who fund there lobbyists
and now they are gonna do it right when it comes to blue collar workers...
its the rich and powerful taking care of the rich and powerful.....the scraps go to the middleclass and poor...
they did the bank bailout when the country was against it....now everyone is even more ticked....so they used public opinion as a reason for not bailing out the big 3
who's representing who?
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If that's the case, and I don't know one way or the other to be honest.. then I'm glad so many of those in power are being bounced out...
There is a new or should I say a "renewed" sense that our elected officials will NOT be able to run amock as they have for so long.. but if they do, I know who to blame! Me and You. That's who.. if we let them, then we get what we deserve.
When I first heard about the Bailouts of the banks,, I thought we were going to buy up bad loans.. then redo them for the current folks in default. The hope being that we keep those that are in danger of losing thier homes,, from doing so.. and we could keep the banks from going under because of the weight of the bad loans..
To me, that made sense.. it doesn't seem to be working out like that. I'm fairly bummed about it.
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When I first heard about the Bailouts of the banks,, I thought we were going to buy up bad loans.. then redo them for the current folks in default. The hope being that we keep those that are in danger of losing thier homes,, from doing so.. and we could keep the banks from going under because of the weight of the bad loans..
well i think the dems wanted to do something along those lines, but it never happened...
i'm of mixed feelings on this issue also....
if a person bought a house and was deceived about what would happen when the loan reset, then maybe you help them out...but even then, shouldn't they have known what they were signing?
speculators in real estate should get no help.....you gambled....you lost....
stupid people that borrowed all of there equity....hope you enjoyed the new car, and all the spending....now pay for it...
the result of the bailout imo was simply covering all the losses of all the rich on wall street...after all we can't have rich people that gambled now poor can we? we should....but we won't...
these people were flipping coins for billions with all the derivitaves and crap....they were winning and keeping it....when they lost big....they got bailed out....
wanna go to vegas and see how it works out for the common man? 
here's an article i read about the subject....
link
Bankruptcy, Not Bailouts Nov 19th, 2008 | By Byron King | Category: Economics, Featured
I was looking through my pocket-copy of the U.S. Constitution for the “Bailout Clause.” I must have missed it. If any readers out there can find the Bailout Clause, please send me a note and let me know where it is.
There is, however, a “Bankruptcy Clause” in the U.S. Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 4). I’ve written before about bankruptcy in Whiskey & Gunpowder. See “National Bankruptcy,” and “A Suggestion of Bankruptcy,” Part I and Part II.
The key point is that the framers of the U.S. Constitution specifically anticipated that the nation would encounter economic troubles from time to time. So they gave Congress the power to enact bankruptcy laws, as opposed to “bailout” laws. And throughout U.S. history, the various economic “Panics” — which occurred every couple of decades — always led to one direction or another in the evolution of state and federal bankruptcy laws. Hey, bankruptcy works. (Full disclosure — I used to practice bankruptcy law.)
At some times in U.S. history, the bankruptcy laws favored the creditor class. During other times, the bankruptcy laws favored debtors. The point is that the economic hardships were eventually manifested in bankruptcy proceedings.
Just as all rivers flow to the sea, bad debt must find its way to discharge. So bankruptcy court was where judges and attorneys and other financial experts (like accountants and actuaries) could deal with each case on the merits. The problems could come to some sort of resolution. Some people came out OK. Other people lost everything. But capital flowed from weak hands to strong hands, and the economy moved along.
Why Not Bankruptcy Process?
But not today. Indeed, according to the New York Times many law firms — including firms that focus on bankruptcy work — are actually scaling back and laying off staff. Why is that? Why are the politicians so eager to avoid seeing companies go into bankruptcy? The government is trying to solve the problems of gargantuan levels of debt — along with chronic insolvency and illiquidity within the economy — without resorting to the constitutional-based legal mechanisms and tools that have served the nation well for over 200 years.
Consider the problems of derivatives. Few understand them. Many so-called derivative “contracts” are little more than mathematical formulae based on a series of futuristic occurrences that are entirely speculative. Their initial value in the best of times was entirely somebody’s guess. So is it any surprise that it is all but impossible to place a value on such things during the throes of a recession? Yet derivatives are some of the “troubled assets” that the Treasury is attempting to bail out. This is ridiculous!
Why is the Treasury allowing even one dollar of taxpayer money to get near a derivative? Why not use the bankruptcy process in this kind of situation? The companies that hold unsalable derivatives should have to go into a Chapter 11 proceeding and let a bankruptcy court sort it out. If the derivatives have value, let someone say so — under oath — in front of a federal judge. If the derivatives are worthless, let the judges do what we pay them to do — void the instruments and allocate the losses.
Sure, bankruptcy cases take time to roll through the courts. But could Chapter 11 bankruptcy be any worse than the current drip-drip-drip, hemorrhage of funds into the black hole of the likes of AIG? And at least some bankruptcy judge might just put a stop to the AIG exploits of taking nice vacations to exotic resort locales.
Or what about the U.S. automobile industry? Now the domestic carmakers want some of that TARP money too. Or else what? They’ll have to file for Chapter 11? Yeah? And then?
Well on the day that the automakers file for bankruptcy, the automobile factories will still be there. The patents and designs aren’t going anywhere. The workers and design teams will stick around for a while — it’s not like there are a whole lot of other jobs out there, except maybe raking leaves in leafy suburbs.
It seems to me that General Motors, Ford or Chrysler — without the legacy costs of pensions and health care and featherbed contracts for non-working union members — would actually be a decent investment for a Debtor-in-Possession (DIP) form of financing. Any DIP-lender worth its salt would certainly go into the management suites to take names, kick ass and get rid of the deadwood. And over the long term, if U.S. automakers actually paid more for steel than they have to pay for retiree health care, then we might actually see a revival of that industry.
Meanwhile, We’re Losing Time
Meanwhile, we are losing time. “Ask me for anything,” said Napoleon to his lieutenant. “Anything but time.”
What Napoleon was saying to his subordinate was that in the context of war, there are always setbacks. Terrain, for example, is sometimes captured and lost to the enemy. But lost terrain can be regained. And troops are lost in combat, but the armed forces can be rebuilt and reconstituted from the strategic reserve. Lost time, however? Once it has passed, time is gone forever. You will never get it back, and no general — however great — can win it back on any field of battle.
It is the same thing with the declining U.S. and world economy. The world’s central bankers and treasury ministers dither, and squander capital into bottomless pits of a deflationary recession.
But the great villain in all of this is debt, pure and simple. And much debt is just a collection of bizarre debt instruments, exotic forms of speculative contracts, and obligations so massive that they will never be repaid. So why prolong the agony? Liquidate it now. Let the bankruptcy courts do what the framers intended.
That’s all for now.
Until we meet again… Byron W. King November 19, 2008
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It is Henry Paulson who controlled the tarp money and he did a wonderful job of distributing it, but a horrible job of making sure that it was used correctly
Is that really the problem? I'm truly asking because I don't know.
I've been laboring under the impression that a person with Good
From everything I have read and heard that is a major problem. The banks took the money and they used it get out of hot water, but they are still not lending very much.
As was reported earlier on the board. One bank bought National CIty for 5 billion. Applied for the TARP funds for national City and received roughly 4.5 billion. They used the tarp funds to acquire billions of dollars in assets for pennies on the dollar.
We say that the auto industry is too big to fail. In the aftermath of this financial meltdown, some banks have become monstrosities. Talking to my banker friend Bank of America" now owns over 10 percent of the banking share in this country after all their mergers. Something that there were strict regulations against prior to bear sterns.. If they are to go under. FDIC would be completely wiped out.
Getting back on topic. The banking sector and that auto industry are completely intertwined. The auto industry has billions of dollars in loans, and if they are aloud to default, it will be a huge hit to the banking system.
More importantly though the auto industry functions on credit. The companies buy parts on credit. The dealers buy the cars on credit and individuals buy cars from the dealers on credit. When the credit lines begin to dry up. It really squeezes the auto industry.
All in all it is a horrible situation all around.
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One of you smart people know what the economic effects will be for our Nation?
How would a bailout help the thousands of Auto workers who have been laid off?
Other effects of the Auto Bailout?
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The fat cats will get fatter, just like in the banking bailout.
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The Big 3 will continue to be controlled by the unions making them inefficient and internationally along with domestically uncompetitive. They might wise up, both management and the labor leaders, but probably not.
Meanwhile traditionally foreign automakers like Toyota, Nissan and Honda will continue running their non-unionized production facilities with efficiency and increased marketing share. Right under the noses of these unions who are killing their 'American' companies...remember last year when it was more expensive for GM to close a plant that was losing several million a year rather than keep it open because of union buy-outs? That's the illogical business practices that are in effect for the Big Three.
I'm going to take heat on this because there are a lot of union people, so here's my main question....what good are the union workers overinflated wages if the plant shuts down making the area a ghost town?
Now, if the bailout does NOT happen it will cripple the largest private employing industry in our nation making this recession to creep into Great Depression-like UE levels.
I hate to say it, it might be better in the long term for our economy for the government to let these three and their affiliated companies fail because it will void the labor agreements allowing them to finally manage their business properly in and in an increasingly competitive market rather than being handcuffed.
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If they get a bailout, they continue their inefficient business practices and come back asking for more money in a year or two. Bailing them out is not going to make people buy their cars.
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I'm going to take heat on this because there are a lot of union people, so here's my main question....what good are the union workers overinflated wages if the plant shuts down making the area a ghost town?
Well I have said it many,many times on this board but no one seems to understand that what is going on at the Big Three auto makers is not indicative of what most union contracts are like.
But on to the point. You say their wages are overinflated and I would agree that they are higher than the average. I am not sure exactly it is but I have heard that the average autoworker makes $25 a hour as far as their hourly rate. So take them down to say $19 a hour. $19 a hour brings you to around $40,000 a year if you dont work OT. $39,520 to be exact. Is that really all that much money? The $6 cut you took works out to about $12.500 less a year. It is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions, if not billions that mangment and execs are making. It is also a drop in the bucket compared to their legacy costs, to not only retired blue collar wokers, but also white collared workers. The hourly rates of current employees is not the problem, it is really a non factor. Or at least a very small factor.
KING
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But on to the point. You say their wages are overinflated and I would agree that they are higher than the average. I am not sure exactly it is but I have heard that the average autoworker makes $25 a hour as far as their hourly rate. So take them down to say $19 a hour. $19 a hour brings you to around $40,000 a year if you dont work OT. $39,520 to be exact. Is that really all that much money? The $6 cut you took works out to about $12.500 less a year. It is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions, if not billions that management and execs are making. It is also a drop in the bucket compared to their legacy costs, to not only retired blue collar wokers, but also white collared workers. The hourly rates of current employees is not the problem, it is really a non factor. Or at least a very small factor.
40K for someone without a degree is FAR too much money. Overinflated relative to similar positions/skills is one thing...starting salary higher than a college graduate necessary position is why we are in this problem in the first place. And a 'little' overpaid is a nightmare for a company that has hundreds of thousands of employees.
I'm all for someone making a good wage. Again I will pose the question...what's a few more dollars an hour worth if the plant gets shut down causing a ghost town?
Do you see a correlation - Honda, Nissan, Toyota in the US are mostly non-union versus all the Big Three are...do we hear them crying? The union agreements handcuff managment from making long-term strategic decisions that will keep their respective company competitive...this isn't all on the unions but they have at least one hand in this cookie jar of fault.
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So everyone who doesnt have a college degree shouldnt be able to make a decent living? Sorry 40k in todays inflated economy is not a whole lot of money to support a family on. Especially considering that only about 30k of that is actually making it home.
Really not my point though, and you made my point with what you said about the foreign auto plants that operate in this country. You do realize the guys working in those plants make damn good money and have good benefits? Paying a guy $20 a hour is NOT what is causing their money problems. Their money problems are beign caused by LEGACY costs. The foreign automakers do not have that problem.
Now some will say then it is the retirees who are causing the problems, when in reality it is automakers who underfunded their pension plans all those years(probably to pay their own fat cat bonuses) so now the moneyis not in the kitty the way it is supposed to be. Seems to me that they failed to plan properly.
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0K for someone without a degree is FAR too much money. Overinflated relative to similar positions/skills is one thing...starting salary higher than a college graduate necessary position is why we are in this problem in the first place. And a 'little' overpaid is a nightmare for a company that has hundreds of thousands of employees.
someone without a college education shouldn't be making 40 grand? gmafb....a good plumber charges 75 bucks an hour...your wages are defined by your skills...and a demand for them...i guess bill gates shouldn't be making millions...he didn't even graduate high school....
why is it that the non-union auto workers can make the same wage?
you get hired to do a job...wages are set, by what people are willing to do the job for...
i know plenty of "college" grads, that are stupid as a box of rocks....and couldn't change there own tire if it went flat...
blue collar workers are what made this country what it is today...
ever here of inflation? 40 grand isn't crap....a new honda minivan cost that much...
the big 3's biggest problem is that they are still under an old pension system...that and health care are killing them...how do you fix it? don't know...
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I'm all for someone making a good wage. Again I will pose the question...what's a few more dollars an hour worth if the plant gets shut down causing a ghost town?
its not worth it...but as was pointed out to you...its not just the line workers...i would love to see what the exec's make...accross the board cuts are the only fair way to do it....
but in this country the management to worker wage differential is way larger than the way the japanese companies are...
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well i take back what i said about across the board cuts... seems to me the stupid ceo is making almost 40,000 per day....and you want the workers to work for less than that a year? Despite GM's Staggering Losses, CEO Still Rakes In Millions By MARC McDONALD It's difficult to imagine a more poorly run corporation than General Motors these days. The company reported a $2.5 billion loss in the third quarter and warned that it could run out of cash in 2009. GM's share price is down 78 percent this year. A lot of people at GM are feeling a lot of pain these days. GM has been shedding jobs left and right and announced it will lay off 3,600 workers beginning early next year. One person who is not feeling the pain, though, is GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner. This year, Wagoner will pull down a salary of $2.2 million, in addition to other CEO perks. And last year, Wagoner's total compensation was $14.4 million. That works out to $39,452.05 per day, including weekends. (Note that in 2007, GM lost a staggering $38.7 billion). And now, Wagoner has the gall to push for a government bailout for his company. In other words, Wagoner is a firm believer in the "capitalist" system when it comes to defending his obscene pay. But he apparently has no qualms about asking for billions of our tax dollars to help fix his sinking company. Perhaps the most troubling aspect of all this is that GM's woes are entirely self-inflicted and the result of poor management over the years. While Toyota was perfecting hybrid technology for its now wildly popular Prius, GM was betting the farm on clunky gas-guzzling SUVs. Now that the latter are out of favor, thanks to sky-high gas prices, GM is on the ropes, because it was too short-sighted and stupid to have a "Plan B." Actually, I guess GM does have a Plan B---stick out its hand and beg for the government to give it billions of our tax dollars. So in the end, all of us will wind up paying for this fiasco. GM's workers, who're being laid off by the thousands will suffer the brunt of the pain. We taxpayers will also likely suffer. In fact, just about everyone is going to suffer, in the end. That is, except for the people directly responsible for GM's mess: the over-paid GM executives like Wagoner whose short-sightedness and poor decisions led to the fiasco at GM in the first place. What's even more astonishing about this story is that Wagoner's fat paychecks dwarf the pay of Toyota's executives (who have traditionally earned only a small fraction of what their Detroit CEO counterparts earn). Although Japanese CEO pay is not publicly disclosed, it is estimated to be only a fraction of what U.S. automaker CEOs make. For example, the estimated pay of Toyota's CEO in 2005 was under $1 million. In fact, in recent years, U.S. CEOs have made vastly more than what their counterparts make in other nations. For example, in 2005, a typical Japanese executive made 11 times what a typical Japanese worker earned. In the U.S., the average CEO pulled down a staggering 475 times what the typical American worker earned. web page maybe thats the big problem....maybe thats why the workers always want more....were friggin' doomed...
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This 'loan' just prolongs the inevitable - failure of these companies.
And it brings all of us taxpayers along for the ride as well.
In the current state, they cannot survive. They have proved this.
Go bankrupt, start over, hire execs away from Toyota & Honda and drop the unions. Then they might be competitive once again.
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