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2nd String
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2nd String
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I heard them argue that nobody wants to buy a car from a bankrupt company. I say that is hogwash.
Nobody is buying their cars for several reasons, including not having the money to do so. Giving them wads of cash for 40 years of crap management and bad unions does not secure their fiscal future.
I have seen first hand the crap the unions of the auto companies pulls. They were paying my company $45.00 an hour each for 10 people a day to go to x location and repack parts into metal bins. Their reason being the wooden crates had moss on them and the workers refused to touch them.
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Dawg Talker
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those companies operated against each other....there was no foreign competition.....they had pleny of cash to support the retirees....
the other big problem is loss of market share....honda and toyota are smart...they got there foot in the door, and built factories on our soil...they make good cars...
once gm and chevy started losing market share, paying the legacy bene's became a huge problem.....honda and toyota will never have this problem as they don't have pensions...
I'm not intending to take you out of context Elf and hope I don't, but I strung those together because I believe there is a point to be made from a historic perspective, particularly if all associated with the Detroit Three were to sacrifice in the name of profitability and survival.
There certainly was a time that most of the market share of vehicles sold in this country belonged to the American automakers. Then came that "foot in the door" moment which I believe to be the Energy Crisis of the 70's. While foreign automakers, especially the Japanese, did manage to gain ground in the US, business was still good for Detroit. Even in more recent times each of the Detroit Three benefited from the popularity of large trucks and SUVs which have a substantial profit margin, especially in comparison to family sedans, sub compacts and compact vehicles. I tend to think that the much of labor costs that are now prohibitive to these companies profitability were negotiated when things were rosy. I have not attempted to research, but I wouldn't be surprised if much of the legacy costs and current compensation was agreed upon a decade or two ago and have carried on through more current contracts.
I think you were making the same point, but just thought I would expand on it a bit. Btw we do have a pension plan at Honda and it, along with other compensation, is probably best described as "conservative", at least in comparison to what organized labor garnered from each of the Detroit Three. More on compensation as it is tied to cost per unit (CPU) in a moment.....
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If the UAW would relax the work rules,,, it would go a long way to reducing the hourly cost of manufacturing a domestic car. Here's a news flash for the unions.. make the changes or die an ugly death..... count on it
I hope the last part of that does not fall on deaf ears Damon. I don't have the exact numbers for Honda, but I do think some ballpark figures tell an interesting story.....
* approx. 350,000 to 500,000 automobiles manufactured in Ohio annually for over 25 years (3 plants, 2 production shifts, 3 models of various types)
* approx 15,000 employees
The Detroit Three cannot even come close to that type of productivity given the current conditions they work by. Please note that I am not saying that their employees are not productive, but that the rules in which they operate by are counterproductive. Rules, imho, that are borne out of paranoia and obviously not common sense or good business practices. Items such as task exclusivity and archaic entitlements of tenure as opposed to the flexibility that can allow or better enhance lean manufacturing. Indeed Henry Ford developed and / or practiced many elements of this, but the irony that the UAW has managed to create an environment that can reduce or obliterate it's benefits can not be understated.
Can you have lean manufacturing and job banks? Think about that.
That gets me back to Honda and the "conservative" compensation claim I made. Again, I claim that in comparison to what competitors have allowed. Honda is and always will be a company that is concerned about the CPU. The workers on the floor know it. We live it every shift. There is good reason for this. Relative to all automakers Honda is a small company and it's expansion has been conservative. It has always been tied to lean production that is influenced by future expectations. Simply, Honda cannot survive losing billions month after month. They do not have the capitol. In my 17 years there this "profit to survive" mentality has been evident in one form or the other. At the same time I have never felt that I was overworked. An honest day's work for an honest day's pay is how I have always looked at it. Compensation tied to profits.
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I would give the auto industry the 34 million dollars they ask
$34 billion hungryhound. I realize it is an easy mistake to make. I have done it myself when discussing this issue. 
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Three; whatever you do, DO NOT allow the government to become a partner in the manufacture of automobiles
If Congress approves this then it is done. They have already stated as much (e.g., regulating executive pay). We can call it oversight and paint a pretty face, but the partnership would be concerted and mutual. Free market be damned.
Speaking of gov't.....
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you've got the epa for one.....foreign companies don't have to follow those rules
Wrong. Any auto manufacturer selling in the US has to abide by EPA regulations as well as other vehicle safety standards.
and then....
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.American companies should be competing against American companies....screw the foreigners.
...our gov't let the foreign car companies in no questions asked....sure they build great cars, but our car companies were put at risk
Throw up the gates!?
Tariffs at the borders!!??
What questions were not asked?
Who put the Detroit Three put at risk?
The latter is the most important point and imperative to this thread. Perhaps you already hit on one element when you stated, "sure they make great cars". Over the past decade or so Detroit has improved greatly relative to quality, but when you couple past reliability problems with the aforementioned CPU then the "who" points directly to all of the American automakers and their organized labor.
Do we really want protectionism? What about foreign oil? Can American oil producers sell gasoline at less than the current price per gallon? Where does protectionism stop? Protectionism and the legislating of manufacturing does not and will not stop with automakers or the Chinese made goods at Walmart.
I wish it was all that simple.
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Legend
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We have a dealer up here in aurora,,, Bob Serpentini Chevy, that advertises guaranteed Credit Approval in 30 minutes... how can he do that if a lady like you describe can't get a car loan..
Easy, with enough cash down, a few grand in bank fees and a 25 percent interest rate most people can still be approved. But who in their right mind with good credit is going to pay that kind of interest rate.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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So that's how serpentini charges 6000 for a 97 Buick....damn, I've seen a few memo titles pass my desk and wondered how he does it, then again if someone signs the note then it's up to them to pay it off I guess, that's why I say if you're buying a used car get it from a private party and be prepared to do some repairs.
LET'S GO BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/OldSixty-Two/new0400001.jpg) [b]WOOF WOOF[b]
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Legend
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if a person bought a house and was deceived about what would happen when the loan reset, then maybe you help them out...but even then, shouldn't they have known what they were signing?
Not in all cases my little elfen buddy  . I guess you didn't read the story of the 90 year old lady in Akron who tried to off herself after some creep with Countrywide home loans convinced her that she should take out a mortgage on a home she owned free and clear.... then the interest rate spiked and she was in foreclosure.. she couldn't take it so she shot herself....
She lived thank god and Countrywide forgave the entire mortgage in what is nothing more than a PR move,,, and I guess she's back at home now safe and sound.
But thats kinda what happened.. it's not just folks that know the difference,, it's mostly folks that don't. Not everyone is as bright as you and I...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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As was reported earlier on the board. One bank bought National CIty for 5 billion. Applied for the TARP funds for national City and received roughly 4.5 billion. They used the tarp funds to acquire billions of dollars in assets for pennies on the dollar.
You have the numbers incorrect and the sequence as well.. PNC got TARP money in the area of 7 Billion... Then went out and offered 5 Billion for NCB. NCB was told it would not receive TARP money and not the share holders of NCB are sueing to stop the deal because the assets were sold too low causing a loss to the NCB shareholders. Stay tuned, this is gonna get interesting to watch.
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The banking sector and that auto industry are completely intertwined. The auto industry has billions of dollars in loans, and if they are aloud to default, it will be a huge hit to the banking system.
I guarantee you, the banks will get money before any other creditor.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The jobs potentially that are 'lost' if they fail is important, but keep in mind these co's will not just disappear even if they go bankrupt. They will reorganize and come out of bankruptcy. In addition, these employees could go to work for Honda, Toyota, etc. If demand decreases that much for American cars, they could go to work for the others who have plants in the states. Here's Honda in OH http://www.ohio.honda.com/
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but I wouldn't be surprised if much of the legacy costs and current compensation was agreed upon a decade or two ago and have carried on through more current contracts.
i would bet you are right...i will try and draw an analogy....its kinda like social security...when it first started there were many workers supporting a few...now its less workers supporting many...where did all the workers go? overseas, or to mexico...
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Btw we do have a pension plan at Honda
i thought that you guys have 401k's....there is a big difference from the traditional pension format, as once you retire the company is free of you....with the old pension plans they are not....meaning honda will never have retired workers messing up there cpu....
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Wrong. Any auto manufacturer selling in the US has to abide by EPA regulations as well as other vehicle safety standards.
i'm not talking about your plant in the states.....i'm talking about all the plants out of the country...you can't tell me that a plant that say makes brake pads in mexico is following epa guidlines...they don't hvae to...so why would they....same goes for a plant in china that makes something else...how can American companies compete?
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Do we really want protectionism? What about foreign oil? Can American oil producers sell gasoline at less than the current price per gallon? Where does protectionism stop? Protectionism and the legislating of manufacturing does not and will not stop with automakers or the Chinese made goods at Walmart.
i really think we do need it....how come we can't build a manufacturing plant in japan? because they wouldn't let us...Japan protects there car companies....the US has done things like nafta to help destroy ours...
my views (and just to clarify....honda and all the others are here to stay) they hired you...and your American....for that i'm happy...
what i am inferring is many facets of manufacturing are now done out of the country as a result of this competition...American companies were forced to move manufacturing out of the states just to remain competitive....this did not help this country....it should of gave us cheaper cars.. (if wages are the big problem)....did it?
companies care about one thing....profit...the US govt has allowed..even helped this crazy grab for an ever better profit margin...even at the expense of its own people....
how do we compete with china who pays a buck an hour? or with a company that pollutes, and saves on the millions if epa mandated equipment that the company in the states has to have?
the answer is you can't...we don't control what happens in other countrys...
i would love to see tarriffs on car parts coming into this country...i don't care who's using them....gm, toyota, honda, ford.....
short term, the price would go up....but i guarantee you....right next to your plant, there would be companies springing up hiring Americans to build those parts cheaper....
damn i'm rambling....lol
all these jobs used to be in this country....they used to provide a living wage for Americans...
i tend to look at this from a historic perspective.....
in 1970 a car was probably about 2000 dollars....a firefighter in my town made 10,000 dollars a year....so a car was 20% of there pay for the year.....this was in the car companies hey day, as there wasn't much competition....
now a new car costs 25-30 thousand....i guessing an average here....that 1970 wage adjusted for inflation is about 55000...so were about about 50% of that same wage for a car.....while most Americans ar making less than that.....
whats inflation got to do with it? it causes prices to go up...so workers demand more wages to afford those same products....
so how do you get a car? credit...that thats running out, because good jobs are leaving the country....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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All Pro
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Someone without a college education shouldn't be making 40 grand? gmafb....a good plumber charges 75 bucks an hour...your wages are defined by your skills...and a demand for them...i guess bill gates shouldn't be making millions...he didn't even graduate high school....
why is it that the non-union auto workers can make the same wage?
you get hired to do a job...wages are set, by what people are willing to do the job for...
i know plenty of "college" grads, that are stupid as a box of rocks....and couldn't change there own tire if it went flat...
blue collar workers are what made this country what it is today...
ever here of inflation? 40 grand isn't crap....a new honda minivan cost that much...
the big 3's biggest problem is that they are still under an old pension system...that and health care are killing them...how do you fix it? don't know...
That isn't what I am saying. By the way a 'good' plumber earns a good living after several years...it isn't given to them. I'm saying that when someone JUST NOW entering the workforce (and without a degree) starts for MORE than most who have spent 4-5 years in college, there is something wrong with that system.
And by the way, there is a significant difference between a starting salary and a salary one earns through experience.
Yes, I've 'here'd of inflation. I gave the 40K number as an example...how much does a union lineworker make as starting salary? I read it is probably closer to 60K, isn't it?
And the point of the American dream is WORKING up to a good living. Anyone who expects to live a comfortable life in their first job, first year of experience is only promoting the Entitlement Generation that is also holding down our economy right now (my generation).
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I'm all for someone making a good wage. Again I will pose the question...what's a few more dollars an hour worth if the plant gets shut down causing a ghost town?
its not worth it...but as was pointed out to you...its not just the line workers...i would love to see what the exec's make...accross the board cuts are the only fair way to do it....
but in this country the management to worker wage differential is way larger than the way the japanese companies are...
YES, the management is at fault. And they are also at fault for granting the legacy expenses in labor negotiations. Yes, they need a paycut too.
What is the kiss of death for me in looking at who holds the most blame (the unions versus management) was after reading that GM couldn't close a plant last year because the closure would have cost FAR more than to keep it open generating millions of $ in losses every year. NO manager can overcome that handicap.
By the way, the backbone, in case you haven't noticed, of which this country was built upon is broken. Sourcing it as a reason to drag on this nightmare doesn't exactly hold too much water considering it will be our Service Economy that will keep our GDP larger than the developed nations....not the blue collar manufacturing jobs.
![[Linked Image from thumb0.webshots.net]](http://thumb0.webshots.net/t/34/34/0/73/58/2594073580091396520Miskbz_th.jpg)
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That isn't what I am saying. By the way a 'good' plumber earns a good living after several years...it isn't given to them. I'm saying that when someone JUST NOW entering the workforce (and without a degree) starts for MORE than most who have spent 4-5 years in college, there is something wrong with that system.
And by the way, there is a significant difference between a starting salary and a salary one earns through experience.
Yes, I've 'here'd of inflation. I gave the 40K number as an example...how much does a union lineworker make as starting salary? I read it is probably closer to 60K, isn't it?
And the point of the American dream is WORKING up to a good living. Anyone who expects to live a comfortable life in their first job, first year of experience is only promoting the Entitlement Generation that is also holding down our economy right now (my generation).
i don't think union line workers walk in the door and make 60 grand a year....and i understand that experience brings higher wages...i started a 12 bucks an hour as a plasterer, and worked my way up to 25 an hour..i can easily get 50 an hour doing side work...(this is usually the smaller jobs that can be completed in a few hours....)
i understand what your are saying about college education, as opposed to entering the work force without it....but that doesn't really set wages....demand for your skills is what sets your wage....
now usually a college educated person will make more, because there are less people with the qualifications (college degree) for the job....so the wages are higher...
but the same holds true for the blue collar factory job...these auto workers are getting hired at one of the biggest companies in the country...they get paid well...i don't think its as bad as you say at entry level....but they make a good buck.....check my posts about exec pay....that got merged....
as far as the plant closing thing....yeah thats screwd up....management was dumb for agreeing to something like that....but they did....
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by the way, the backbone, in case you haven't noticed, of which this country was built upon is broken. Sourcing it as a reason to drag on this nightmare doesn't exactly hold too much water considering it will be our Service Economy that will keep our GDP larger than the developed nations....not the blue collar manufacturing jobs.
the backbone is broken because of outsourcing...the eternal quest for more profit...even at the expense of your own workers and country has to stop...
and i disagree that our service economy will keep us going strong....in order to pay for services people have to have jobs.....or they will do it themselves....or go without...
look at starbucks....people can't afford it...so they make there own, the old fashion way....
hair cut....buy some clippers...
hole in the wall....patch it yourself...
some services are better than others, as people don't know how to do things.....but they will learn....
when the out of work family can't afford the plumber...they will go to homedepot, and buy a toilet and change it themselves....
then the plumber don't get the job....he doesn't buy his coffee at starbucks...and cuts his own hair...now the starbucks worker loses his job, and can't buy a car..rinse and repeat.....
everyone can't be served...at some point you have to build something....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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check this out.... idiots..... Bank of America Sends Your Tax Dollars to China Published 12/07/08 Craig Harrington - Print Article E-mail - editor@economyincisis.orgJust one month after receiving $25 billion form the Treasury to stave off disaster, Bank of America spent $7 billion to increase its holdings of China Construction Bank. In mid October Bank of America was one of the hand-selected institutions to receive the first phase of the $700 billion bailout package. As one of the world’s largest banks, Bank of America was deemed suitable for a cash infusion by the Treasury Department in order to shore up its assets and get the bank to open up its channels for lending. Bank of America is apparently lending, but it is lending overseas rather than to beleaguered home and business owners in the United States who desperately need a hand. One of the main reasons that the public was so unified in its opposition to the financial bailout was their belief that the recipient banks would not use the money for the right purposes. We have already seen American International Group executives take lavish and luxurious vacations while the government scrambled to shovel more money their way. We also saw bailout recipients use the funding to start buying up competitors via Treasury-backed mergers and acquisitions. Now it seems that our tax dollars can easily be spent in foreign direct investment overseas, rather than here at home where it is needed. The move by Bank of America also puts money into the hands of the Chinese government as they begin collecting money to fund their own nearly $600 billion bailout and rescue operation. Essentially, the United States Treasury has gifted $7 billion dollars of your money to the Chinese government with Bank of America as an intermediary. web page so much for helping Americans in trouble....looks like its buy up other banks to make themselves even bigger.... gotta be too big to fail these days i guess.....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Legend
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i would bet you are right...i will try and draw an analogy....its kinda like social security...when it first started there were many workers supporting a few...now its less workers supporting many...where did all the workers go? overseas, or to mexico...
Actually Social Security is in trouble because people are living longer, and retiring longer. The same is true for pensions such as GM's. In the past 25 or so years, the American average age has risen by almost 2 years, and life expectancy has increased by almost 5 years. We had a huge downturn in children being born. This was a decades long trend, which only reversed in the past couple of years. The 70s, 80s, and 90s all saw fewer children being born than the 60s did. Social Security and GM's problems share some aspects, and are dissimilar in other regards.
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i'm not talking about your plant in the states.....i'm talking about all the plants out of the country...you can't tell me that a plant that say makes brake pads in mexico is following epa guidlines...they don't hvae to...so why would they....same goes for a plant in china that makes something else...how can American companies compete?
You do realize that the Big 3 all have plants in Mexico and Canada ..... and that they import parts as well? GM also sold somewhere in the area of 2 million cars in Europe in 2006. The Asia Pacific region accounted for around 2 million vehicle sales in 2006. GM was also the top selling automobile brand in China in 2006 .... with almost a million units sold. What would the potential loss of 5 million sales (not to mention Latin America) do to GM, regardless of any benefits gained through protectionist measures?
data 1
GM Europe 2007
As far as manufacturing leaving the country ..... we manufacture more today than ever before in the US. Automation is more to blame than "jobs leaving the country". I would expect that automation and streamlining of business will continue to be an avenue that all businesses pursue in order ro control coats and attain or increase profitability. Unfortunately, this means less jobs in manufacturing, even while production increases.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I should add that the manufacturing comment was prior to the recent downturn and financial mess. Manufcturing in November took a tremendous drop.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Actually Social Security is in trouble because people are living longer, and retiring longer. The same is true for pensions such as GM's. In the past 25 or so years, the American average age has risen by almost 2 years, and life expectancy has increased by almost 5 years. We had a huge downturn in children being born. This was a decades long trend, which only reversed in the past couple of years. The 70s, 80s, and 90s all saw fewer children being born than the 60s did. Social Security and GM's problems share some aspects, and are dissimilar in other regards.
well i did say try....lol....i guess that is a bad example for my point....don't know why i didn't think of this before..
as a firefighter i pay into a pension....it is for me when i retire...but my payments now add to that fund of money that the current retiree's derive there bene's from.....when you have increases in the costs of healthcare (a huge problem with pension funds) the costs have to come from somewhere...
in any case it can be handled in one of 2 ways....either cut the bene's of the retiree's, or increase what we pay in...
in our case we pay some more, and retiree's have to pay some for healthcare too...i don't mind because i want it there for me...and heathcare costs our out of our control...
in gm's case they are getting it both ways....the costs go up..and there workforce is going down....so its twice as bad...what do you do? don't know if you could convert the whole thing to a 401k type to get the burden off the companies....i thought thats kinda what they did with the healthcare fund....
toyota and honda don't have the huge retired group, because they haven't been around that long yet...and if they use 401k's they won't have that problem anyway....they match while they are working...when you retire...your on your own....
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You do realize that the Big 3 all have plants in Mexico and Canada ..... and that they import parts as well? GM also sold somewhere in the area of 2 million cars in Europe in 2006. The Asia Pacific region accounted for around 2 million vehicle sales in 2006. GM was also the top selling automobile brand in China in 2006 .... with almost a million units sold. What would the potential loss of 5 million sales (not to mention Latin America) do to GM, regardless of any benefits gained through protectionist measures?
i know they do...my point was simply that they had to do that to compete....once one company does it...they all have too....
i also understand that increases in tech have eliminated jobs...that will always be true...
as far as the vehicle sales in other countries...i'm glad to see it...but i still think we are hurt in the long run by outsourcing...people need jobs here.....and why don't they get them? because of wages, the epa, and taxes...a line needs to be drawn somewhere....
how much tax revenue is the US losing when we lose all of these companies? how many more companies will be bought up by foriegn companies? other countries don't seem to let this happen...they protect there own...
i understand that if a car was made totally in the US that it would be unaffordable to much of the world....but you know what? i don't care about the rest of the world....i care more that my neighbor can have a job...
this country thrived in its early years through the use of tarrifs....we protected our companies...we didn't even have the income tax....competition among American companies kept prices under control....
at some point, there is gonna be alot of hungry, angry Americans.....when do they get a chance at a job? and not just any entry level job that used to be reserved for teens.....a job that they can pay the bills with?
at what point does our obsession with profit harm the whole?
if this keeps up they are gonna lose 5 million sales here...because nobody will be able to buy a car, cause they won't have a job....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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The jobs potentially that are 'lost' if they fail is important, but keep in mind these co's will not just disappear even if they go bankrupt. They will reorganize and come out of bankruptcy.
If they go Bankrupt and reorg, they will undoubtly lose thier supplier base as many will go out of business with what GM, Ford and Chrysler owe them.
There are other issues if they go bankrupt as well.., who in thier mind is going to buy a car from a bankrucpt company when they may not be around to honor thier warranty. Who's gonna make the 10 year backlog of parts for these cars if they go out of business.
Reorganization will depend on if they can recapture sales volume.. if not, then any plan will fail.. It's a bad move to let them fail in so may ways..
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In addition, these employees could go to work for Honda, Toyota, etc. If demand decreases that much for American cars, they could go to work for the others who have plants in the states. Here's Honda in OH http://www.ohio.honda.com/
It's completely unrealistic to assume that Honda, Toyota, Nissan or suburu could absorb enough of these people to make a dent... it's a nice, feel good thought, but in the grand scheme of things.. won't amount to hill of beans.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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In addition, these employees could go to work for Honda, Toyota, etc. If demand decreases that much for American cars, they could go to work for the others who have plants in the states. Here's Honda in OH http://www.ohio.honda.com/
It's completely unrealistic to assume that Honda, Toyota, Nissan or suburu could absorb enough of these people to make a dent... it's a nice, feel good thought, but in the grand scheme of things.. won't amount to hill of beans.
Assuming demand will increase for Hondas, etc. they are going to have to find more people somewhere to work.
This discussion has really turned into one about just saving jobs, regardless if the company is making money or turning a profit. If that's the case, just let the gov't buy them and run them.
In the end, it should be about making money and it ain't gonna happen under the current structure.
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The jobs potentially that are 'lost' if they fail is important, but keep in mind these co's will not just disappear even if they go bankrupt. They will reorganize and come out of bankruptcy.
If they go Bankrupt and reorg, they will undoubtly lose thier supplier base as many will go out of business with what GM, Ford and Chrysler owe them.
There are other issues if they go bankrupt as well.., who in thier mind is going to buy a car from a bankrucpt company when they may not be around to honor thier warranty. Who's gonna make the 10 year backlog of parts for these cars if they go out of business.
Interestingly, other makers will step up in to the void and begin making aftermarket parts for those cars as the original suppliers go out of business. It always works that way, and it's why there are always multiple makers of the same parts. So II don't see that as necessarily a bad thing.
Any manufacturer that put all their efforts into one customer was doomed to fail eventually. It's a poor business model to follow.
That being said, I don't want to see the big 3 go under, Chrysler could for all I care  . While foreign makers make nice vehicles, there is something distinctively different in the styling of American autos versus the foreign auto design. Something that I personally like, can't put my finger on it, but it's there.
Especially with more retro-designing going on right now. What would we have with foreign retro-designs? Could you see a parking lot full of Honda Civics in a 1977 retro-design?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Any manufacturer that put all their efforts into one customer was doomed to fail eventually. It's a poor business model to follow
Ok, I agree, but what if you put all your efforts into supporting the big three and all of them go down.. Now what? And by the way, with most automotive suppliers, that is exacly the case. They support all three of the car makers.. and may support the foreign makers as well..
But still, if you have equal parts business from Honda, GM, Ford and Chrysler and Toyota you would think on the surface that that's a terrific mix given the nature of the industy.,
Now, take away GM, Ford and Chrysler and watch as 60% of your business not only goes away, but leaves you holding the bag on outstanding invoices they haven't paid you...
Kind of a different take isn't it. How do they survive now? Can you imagine any company surviving after losing 60% of thier annual billing and on top of that, losing 60% of what they billed out in the last 90 or so days..
No, there is no good reason to think that letting the big three go bankcrupt will solve anything in either the long or short term..
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Interestingly, other makers will step up in to the void and begin making aftermarket parts for those cars as the original suppliers go out of business.
Yes, they will, and most likely will be inferior parts much like the guys out there today that make cheaper knockoffs.. Is that what you want?
A few years back, I had a 1995 Pontiac Grand Prix.. I was rear ended (no wise cracks GM LOL ) The parts that the insurance company wanted the body shop to use were made NOT by GM, but by a supplier of cheaper parts. I didn't think it was a big deal until I saw how they fit onto the car.. it wasn't the same..
I screamed and yelled and the insurance company relented and got me genune GM Parts.. That fit like a glove.
Not saying that all parts are bad, but my experience says you can't count on them being good either.
And besides, if they don't have to compete with Geniune parts anymore, what do you think will happen to both quality and price..
No,, it's not a good answer to that either.
Last edited by Damanshot; 12/08/08 01:50 PM.
#GMSTRONG
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BrownieElf.... Yes, both pension and 401k. I misinterpreted your point about the EPA. I had thought you were talking about vehicle emissions. My bad. I agree with your point and it was the very reason that Bush was not in favor of ratifying the Kyoto Protocal. I also agree that there are still protectionist measures in other industrialized nations that unfairly increase the expense of a product from an American owned company, but as YTown has pointed out our commitment to open markets has enabled opportunities that would not exist if we turn our backs on the global economy. As your video illustrated and as others have mentioned there is a huge disparity in compensation between upper management and the production worker with the Detroit Three and other American companies. What is the justification for this? There are obvious examples of compensation not tied to performance and even if it is are the decisions made by upper management that valuable? When you tie in the drive to maximize shareholders profit there aren't many beans left in the pot. Those two elements have bothered me for some time as I tend to see it as greed rather than justifiable reward. The American middle class is the backbone of not only our economy, but globally. I do believe that this needs to be more appropriately recognized and respected, but I have to admit that I am torn on this subject. I believe in open and free markets with limited regulation and I'm hesitant to endorse the legislating of some type of share the wealth. Other than legislation how do we promote business models whose goals include compensation tied to contribution and, perhaps just as or even more importantly, long term profitability?
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Don't get me wrong, any company that looses that much business suddenly would be severely hurting. And I would hope they keep their billing and collections current enough not to be left holding a huge backlog of unpaid invoices, again, bad business model.
As far as inferior parts, that is very true, but there are plenty of aftermarket quality parts too. You don't think all those Nascar and dragster cars are using all Automotive Manufacture genuine parts do you. Being a car guy as I get from some of your posts on the subject of cars, you know there are plenty of quality aftermarket manufacturers out there. And your scenario you presented is a matter of the insurance company and body shop trying to minimize cost versus provide quality services at a competitive cost.
As I said before, I'm not against helping the big-3. I just find some of the reasons people are pointing out, and many are making out to be a major issue should big-3 go out of business are not as critical as some would be lead to believe.
The bigger problem is really the plants and the dealerships themselves. Should they all be closed down within a years time, would raise unemployment to obscene levels. Which then trickles down to other services. Such as those parts manufacturers who then would be doing less business and be forced to lay off workers.
What I would like to see happen in this package, is for costs to be brought under control, and for some of the raw materials to start being manufactured here in the states. I don't see how it can happen, because it just costs so much to manufacturer things in the US, do to regulations, unions, taxes, etc. Probably the best way to encourage US production of raw materials, is to increase the cost of imported goods, something that should have been done years ago.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I also agree that there are still protectionist measures in other industrialized nations that unfairly increase the expense of a product from an American owned company, but as YTown has pointed out our commitment to open markets has enabled opportunities that would not exist if we turn our backs on the global economy.
i'm all for fair trade....i just don't see it right now....i mean here we are (or were) the superpower better than anyone else...we could out fight, out manufacture, out smart...any other country....everyone wanted to come here for a better life....it was the place to be...and actually it still is, for as screwed up as things have become....
but here we were with all that power, and when it comes to trade, and looking out for ourselves we gave it away....nafta, wto, the old vat tax....illegal immigration....we've signed on, or turned our head at things that have seriously hurt our country....
its one thing to trade with the world....but how do you do it when the world can't afford our goods? cause thats the boat i think we were in....wages were, and still are, a major difference between nations....japan's and European wages might be ok....but the rest of the worlds are far behind....same with our wage laws...even forget unions....places like china can do whatever they want....a dollar an hour is what they get....don't like it...there are a billion more looking for work....
now how do you take something like that and make it even for US goods? you can't...even in china, they might have sold a million cars...but they have a billion people...so thats 1% of the population that can afford a US car....i'm sure its alittle higher because other cars were sold, but thats not a big winner imo....
then you have the mentality....they save...they are not materialistic like us....they live in small homes..functional im sure...but not made for filling up with junk....Americans have become a marketing dream....keep up with the joneses....your stuff equals status....everyone needs a cell phone....its sad really...
most people don't have the cash for this stuff...but the banks will help you out if you wanna be a slave....cause thats what we are....when you are in debt, you have less options....can't lose that job....
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As your video illustrated and as others have mentioned there is a huge disparity in compensation between upper management and the production worker with the Detroit Three and other American companies. What is the justification for this? There are obvious examples of compensation not tied to performance and even if it is are the decisions made by upper management that valuable? When you tie in the drive to maximize shareholders profit there aren't many beans left in the pot. Those two elements have bothered me for some time as I tend to see it as greed rather than justifiable reward. The American middle class is the backbone of not only our economy, but globally. I do believe that this needs to be more appropriately recognized and respected, but I have to admit that I am torn on this subject. I believe in open and free markets with limited regulation and I'm hesitant to endorse the legislating of some type of share the wealth. Other than legislation how do we promote business models whose goals include compensation tied to contribution and, perhaps just as or even more importantly, long term profitability?
as far as the management thing goes....i think the biggest thing is that companies were dumb enough to pay it....why don't they just insource a bunch of japanese ceo's? they are all happy to work for less, and they do it to all the middle class workers....lol
i certainly don't like the way they get paid now...it should be based on long term profitablity....its always about growth, and short term profits....
companies seem to quick to layoff workers, and downsize, the old "more with less" theory....that should be a last resort imo....
imo they should get no stock options...if they run the company into the ground, they should get fired....no bonus...just see ya....maybe give them the same as they give all the workers that just lost there jobs....
i don't think the answer is legislation either....a free market is just that...free.....free from legislation, regulation, gov't control....
in a free market, all the banks that screwed up would have went under....as would gm, ford, aig...housing speculators...ect...
the banks would learn....don't do risky stuff....same with ceo's and workers....work together...don't get to greedy...swallow your pride...
we don't have that because we don't have a true free market....its rigged..why? because the rich wanna stay that way....
now i'm gonna have to go rent 'trading places' just to see raldolph and mortimer duke lose it all 
thats a great role model....had it all rich....now they are poor...sometimes i think that reminder is lost on the rich...but the middle class and poor are well aware....
who knows....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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And I would hope they keep their billing and collections current enough not to be left holding a huge backlog of unpaid invoices, again, bad business model.
You clearly have never done business with any of the Big Three,, I have and they dictate the payment terms and believe me, they squeeze vendors for every dollar and every extra day to pay.. but, if you wanna do business with them, then that's the deal.., Take it or leave it.. I left it years ago because I wasn't about to have a customer dictate to me what was best for my business..
But then, I'm in a business that translates well across all industries. It's a little different for a company whose product line is primarly used in the Auto Industry.. Windshield glass comes to mind as an example.
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You don't think all those Nascar and dragster cars are using all Automotive Manufacture genuine parts do you.
Don't confuse performance parts with parts for the family truckster.. Way different. Way Way different world.., Comparing apples and grapefruit.
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The bigger problem is really the plants and the dealerships themselves. Should they all be closed down within a years time, would raise unemployment to obscene levels. Which then trickles down to other services. Such as those parts manufacturers who then would be doing less business and be forced to lay off workers.
All part of the reason we can't allow the Domestic Auto Industry to fail.
I don't have all the details yet, but Pelosi and Frank just came on TV an hour ago annoucing that they were close to a deal for 15 BILLION dollars worth of LOANS to the auto industry. Something about a March 31st 2009 Deadline and that they could add more to it later if needed.
That's all I got,, no details on it yet. but I'm sure they are out there somewhere.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Watching the ongoing bailout wranglers and had to post. I find this talk about CEOs and others forced out, losing job, bonus, career, etc. the height of hypocrisy as Washington politicos, known for the success at regulating industry and finance (cable, utilities, phone, coal, mining, and it doth go on). We are in the worst place in about two centuries. The BAD hasn't landed yet for all the debt rung up and piled on. And yet, if we hold our political leaders' feet to the fire with exactly the same type of gusto as we have seen in automaker talks, it seems unbearably hypocritical. The outspoken "threatening" Repubs who want to delay and block, are not Big 3 states; but many have foreign soil production roots. Point is, I am paying too much for these jerks, if we grade them on achievemnt and decisions and what results they produced. If car grunts need to take paycuts, politicians do too. They are part of the root of this problem and to blame IMO, though we seem to be willing to ignore them. How about a freeze or a rollback on benefits, salary, retirement. Few if any need it. I would like to see a freeze on their salaries until DJIA tops 12 again, or whatever. Let them eat leftovers, grow gardens, etc. REAL CHANGE, and I voted for Obama and against Bush, would make their benefits and salaries in Washington more scaled back. We do not get what they are paid for. Lower our Governance Bill for 2008. A nice 10% rollback and freeze for balance of your term sends a "We are TRULY" sharing your pain" message (note! not just feeling it). So let us see if Pelosi & the gang have enough hair to practice what they preach. I feel it is an idea whose time is over due and needs payment during this presidency    
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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What's better about all of this Bard is that Congressmen and Senators are acting as if they know what the public wants in the way of cars..
Even worse, NOBODY is talking about the entire industry being down and that it's just not a Domestic issue...
They are merely touching on the real culprit,,, Financiing.... People want cars,, They want to buy,, they are getting turned down. ( I refer you to a post by GMdawg who is a finance manager for a dealer)
They aren't talking about the QUALITY of the vehicles that the Domestic automakers make..
All they talk about is,, CEO's making too much money and Union Labor making too much money... While both are true, neither is the only cause for the demise of the Domestic makers.. In fact, I dare say that Executive compensation is really low on the reasons for the industry downturn...
Cost of Union Labor, the workrules, the benefits etc... that's part of the reason that the domestic makers can't ride this storm out like Nissan, Honda or Toyota can.
Just look at the difference in the hourly cost to make a domestic car versus a Honda for instance... big H U G E difference.
IF:
Our governent would find a way to put the money in the hands of the people instead of the banks, we would have people buying cars again...
IF:
GM, Ford and Chrysler and the union work out an arrangment whereby the hourly costs more closely aligns itself with those of Honda etc, then there is a very good chance the Domestic auto industry can survive and even prosper.
IF:
GM, Ford and Chrysler quit the scam of this whole "initial quality" crap and start building cars that someone can say,, gee, I have 80k miles on my Chevy and it's still terrific... NOW you are talking and Now you have a viable Domestic auto industry.
IF:
GM, Ford and Chrysler get the message that Americans still want the big Shiny cars, and start making them more GREEN...., THEN we will have a Viable Domestic Auto Industry..
This crap of cutting lines of cars or cutting CEO pay,, it's smoke and mirrors... Unless they make the necessary changes like the few I've outlined above,, they will fail.
It's pretty simple to me...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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You left out GM being dumb enough to think about cutting Pontiac, but keeping GMC 
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 Cut a line with popular cars (Grand Am, Grand Prix and Solstice etc.) but keep a line with trucks and SUV's when people are trying to go green and get better mileage? Craziness.
![[Linked Image from i75.photobucket.com]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i302/lrhinkle/d5eaf0b9-e429-4211-b53f-b843bfcf6aa9_zps2ac17420.jpg) #gmstrong
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Not to mention, Chevy Trucks....GMC... are pretty much Twins
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#gmstrong
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You left out GM being dumb enough to think about cutting Pontiac, but keeping GMC
No kidding,, GMC,, clone of Chevy,.. why do they need two of the same thing?
If you gotta cut something, wouldn't it be smarter to cut redundency instead of Innovation.
It's like,, Pontiac has the Solstice and Saturn has the Sky,,, why?
Pontiac had the Firebird, Chevy had the Camaro? Why?
I understand the need to hit different price points, but those two examples were pretty close price wise right?
The price point thing makes sense when you are talking the difference between crossover vehicles I think..
Caddy has a high end Crossover, Buick has one that's slightly lower and Chevy makes one lower yet... Price wise I mean... Don't know if quality is any better on the Caddy than it is on the Chevy... but features are different.
But then I heard that Saturn is going bye bye also... so who knows..
Right now, we have a lot of people chasing thier tails around the room and until they sit down and address the real cause instead of the symptom, they are all doomed to fail. Eventually.
And this is a guy that wants the Big Three to survive.... And thinks they need to survive for the betterment of the country overall.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I have to disagree with you on quality. I have owned nothing but Domestic cars, while my wife has had only foreign makes for some time. Neither have had issues, and I had a supercharged v6 Thunderbird, that I ran to 125k before I traded it in, and it ran just fine, and I drove that car hard. Only major repair I ever did to that was a water pump. The quality is there, but the image of quality is not, as is shown by your own opinion. The 'I only buy American' group is shrinking as we become more global. Heck, there some young kids I've talked to that thought Nissan was American. Younger people are more about style and price versus loyalty. I doubt many of them even consider quality since most will only keep the car 3-4 years anyway, under which it will probably by under warranty the whole time. (And we won't get into your warranty issues here ) When it comes to features and price, foreign makes slaughter the domestics.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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FF, it's easy to find examples of cars going hundreds of thousands of miles and still running fine..
I have a 1998 Blazer with 167k miles on it.. Only major things were:
Air Conditioning (twice)
Heater (twice)
HVAC Control center (a $400 item I might add)
Lower engine oil leak
Radiator leak
Water Pump
Fuel Pump
Cat converter
Power steering pump
Tranfer case leak
In total, I probably have spent about half as much keeping it on the road as I did buying the darn thing.. I don't call that high quality.
And I regularly service my cars and I don't beat them up at all.
My guess is that for every person that has had a good experience, there is at least one that hasn't.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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My guess is that's the same for foreign cars. My wife had a Toyota Tercel when we first met. Purchased brand new, and it was in the shop constantly. Doesn't mean all Toyotas have quality issues.
I know a lot of people with domestic vehicles that never have issues with them, and I know people that do. Just the same as I know people with issues and without with foreign cars.
The reliability between domestic and foreign is much smaller than most people like to believe. Especially since most of the foreign makes are assembled by American workers. We have a different work ethic than the Japanese do, hence why the introduction of foreign cars seemed to be built so much better.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I understand the need to hit different price points, but those two examples were pretty close price wise right?
Yes they are
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Right now, we have a lot of people chasing thier tails around the room and until they sit down and address the real cause instead of the symptom, they are all doomed to fail. Eventually.
Right now  They have been chasing it for YEARS 
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I have to disagree with you on quality.
As do I The owner of our dealership also owns a Honda Dealership. Guess what.... there service department is just as busy as ours.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I have to disagree with you on quality.
As do I The owner of our dealership also owns a Honda Dealership. Guess what.... there service department is just as busy as ours.
Ah, but don't tell too many people, cause they'll call you a liar.
I have a 94 Bonneville, 150,000 miles. Aside from tires, brakes, and exhaust, which are wear and tear items for ALL cars, I've replaced the water pump. And that 3800 engine? I'd put it up against ANY engine in ANY car. Snappy, yet good mileage, longevity? Can't be beat.
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I guess my biggest problem with the whole thing is that they were so hard on the automakers, but they passed the banking industry bailout so fast it would make your head spin. Yeah, it failed the first time, but at what point did they hold hearings and grill the guys under fire? I don't remember seeing that.
Are the Big 3 having problems? Certainly. But I think it's funny that the guy from Alabama, where Toyota and Honda have a big presence, is the one pushing so hard against this.
And, you have to remember that a big part of the Big 3's costs are retiree health plans that have been in effect for a looooong time. Right or wrong, they're there. It's my understanding that the average wages of CURRENT workers are actually pretty close between the domestic and foreign car companies.
And, we all whine about how much these workers are paid, but I don't remember the last time there was such a huge outcry when a college president received a huge raise, or when people railed against the NFL for paying people so much.
*Edit* Oh yeah, and so people know, the $70/hour work thing that has been advocated in the press has been pretty much debunked. Ask any line worker, and I have a feeling they're getting paid a lot less than $70/hour. In fact, the average wage is $28/hour.
So, let's say that the employees work 40 hour weeks and never take a vacation. That's an annual salary of, hold your hats for this HUGE number, $58,240. That's before taxes.
The big cost comes from, as I said before, retiree benefits (surprisingly, the older people go the doctor more) and other health benefits. So, should we advocate cutting their health insurance?
I really see the outcry against the Big 3 as an outcry against the labor unions. Me, I'm a union supporter. But don't get me wrong, I certainly know there are problems with unions. But don't tell me that's the only problem.
Last edited by brownsfansince79; 12/11/08 12:08 AM.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I hear this morning on MSNBC that Ford is not taking any of the loans yet, and are saying they are OK for now.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I hear this morning on MSNBC that Ford is not taking any of the loans yet, and are saying they are OK for now.
That's been Fords position all along. They didn't want the loan.. they wanted a line of credit if things got worse due to a failure of GM and Chrysler.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,085 |
I agree Dshot! It all scares me. They are now marketing magnates who know the pulse of the purchasing public (if so in touch, why the endless parade of polls?) Then they are all financiers, able to pile on debts. They are apparently pure and blameless as far as failures to regulate the industry. Apparently no need for conditions for Wall Street, but we gotta pound the blue collar folks. No problem until $$$$$ line up for Ohio & company. These guys had lousy judgment; if we save them, the government and union get joint say on B of D's. My point was, the politicians who suck on the public wallet represent equally horrible returns on "investments"if we look at taxes that way and as such should get to go to the woodshed every bit as much as these CEO types. Bad judgment? Check. Irresponsible financially? Check! Out of step with public/market/constituents/customers? Check. Cost overruns lack of accountability? Check! How about bonuses and compensation well out of line with horrible performance and only marginal achievement? Yep. I will quit now and go take the blood pressure meds.  
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,085
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,085 |
I personally admire Ford & so I drive them. Gonna be a shame to go back to Nissan if I must . . . . 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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