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Ying says: Quote:
But we are in a good state with our OL.
Yangs says: Not so fast my friend 
We're not in a bad state with line, but it needs a new center and a new guard. Absolutely Tucker is our starter, but he's old and completely unreliable at this point in his career.
2004: Started only 7 games
2005: Started all 16 games
2006: Started only 9 games
2007: Started only 8 games
2008: Missed entire season
One bout of mental illness, another bout of busted for steroids. He'll be 34 when the season starts.
Tucker is a fine guard when he plays, but he's at or near the end. Hadnot has proven to be part of the problem, not part of the answer. The solution is to bring in a starting caliber guard either through free agency or in the first couple rounds of the draft. If Tucker can beat that player out, great, but if he can't, we have a replacement ready.
You and I will disagree on Fraley, but it's better to be proactive and replace him now than go through another season of Hank being pushed around and watching his skills further diminish.
Now here's where I'd step in if I were the GM. I'd bench Fraley and try Hadnot at center to see if he's the answer there. People probably aren't aware that he was a center for the Dolphins. I'd made mention when we signed him that he could be the eventual replacement for Fraley. God knows McKinney isn't any worse than Hadnot at guard, and it may be worth trying McKinney at center, as he's played that position as well.
You're right, Fraley is no bum, but he's not part of the solution for this team. He's just a guy who's on the wrong side of his career, and being proactive is how good teams stay good. That's why the Eagles are a good team. He was a castoff who's done a great job for us, but there's a reason he was a castoff, and signed a very mediocre contract extension. It's time for him to go.
Shaffer is on the bubble. He isn't having a good 2nd half of the year. He was a success last year as a right tackle but he's not playing like that right now. Considering we can only replace so many guys, you'd think he has to remain the RT next year.
We're good with Stein and Thomas, but the other three positions are a question mark. Yes, Savage has proven he's interested in fixing the line. It's time for him to prove it again.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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 I wish you would actually read my posts...and not skim through and pick out sentences that you can YANG about.
We are in a good state with our OL...as in we have a solid foundation finally. And like any foundation you go and build on it.
Then you go and give some info as if to convince me that upgrading on the OL is necessary as if I didn't already state that.
But you are talking about OVERHAULING the OL...and I think thats
1. UNREALISTIC
2. NOT NECESSARY
3. Best done in the draft.
4. Best done over in the next couple of seasons as a process not an Overhaul.
And as stated - finally we have talent here that would make it difficult to say...OK we got you (FA pickup or drafted player) you got the position. I most definitely say UPGRADE where ever possible. Just in the reality it would not be that easy.
IN FA I've already gone on record. I would love Marvel Smith and put him at RT but not much else out there in FA.
Hadnot at Center??? Possibly, actually the guy I would love to give Center a try believe it or not would be Shaffer. But he would never do that, it was hard enough to get him to play RT without pouting.
But I can't imagine Hadnot being better than Fraley ergo my statement about upgrading yes, Easy? NO.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I read it quit thoroughly.  I just have a different perspective.
You named Tucker the starter. I felt it was necessary to shed light on his lack of reliability, therefore a case can be made to replace him.
We can replace Fraley easily. The name is Matt Birk. If he becomes too expensive, the next name is Brad Meester. He'll get overlooked because of the struggles of the Jags line. However, those struggles are at guard and tackle, not center when he's played.
Fraley is so cheap ($1.3 million salary for '09) that he can ride the bench as a valuable backup, which is probably where he's heading if he leaves Cleveland.
Quote:
But you are talking about OVERHAULING the OL...and I think thats
1. UNREALISTIC
2. NOT NECESSARY
3. Best done in the draft.
4. Best done over in the next couple of seasons as a process not an Overhaul.
Here's where we disagree.
#1: It's very realistic. As noted, replacing Fraley is simple. Finding someone to compete or replace Tucker is not difficult. Take your pick of right tackles or guards. Vernon Carey hasn't heard boo from the Dolphins about a new contract. He'd be an upgrade over Shaffer or a great guard. Stacy Andrews would be a great guard. There are others, but it'd bog the thread down even more than it allready is *L*
#2: "Not necessary" is your opinion, to which I disagree.
#3: "Best done in the draft." In an ideal world, sure, but we're not in an ideal situation. If we do it through the draft, we can't spend high picks on linebackers or a corner and have to go through free agency.
No matter how we choose to do it, we're going to have to spend money on free agents. And #4 is where I REALLY disagree:
"Best done over the next couple of seasons as a process not an overhaul"
Our window of opportunity is NOW. Rogers is the key to our defense being good, and he's about to be 30. That big body can't keep it up much longer. We both know we need two new linebackers, and they simply aren't out there in free agency. That means we'll have to draft high to get'em. Thomas, Stein, Jackson, Wright, Pool, Lewis, Edwards, Heiden, Winslow, Corey Williams, Shaun Smith, Robaire Smith, Jones, Jurevicius, Tucker, Fraley, Shaffer.............these are all veteran guys now. We can't afford to go through another season with the offensive line being in the shape it's currently in.
Listen, replacing two players is NOT an overhaul, and can be done through free agency while we simultaneously draft a player in the 2nd or 3rd round.
People thought it'd be impossible to upgrade our line quickly two years ago. Suddenly, Savage signed Shaffer, signed Stein, signed Bentley, traded for Fraley, signed McKinney.........the only one he drafted was Thomas. He did it easily. Signing a center or a guard would be easy, as there are quality players out there. It's not nearly as hard as you think.
I don't think Shaffer could play center, even if he was willing. I also don't think he'd be willing to try guard.
Would Hadnot be better than Fraley? Hard to say, but at this point, it's time for Fraley to hit the bench. He's allready walked into dangerous territory by standing up for Anderson, and being a Captain means jack-squat in this league.
I'm talking about replacing two guys in free agency while we replace two linebackers through the draft. That's EASILY done.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Toad: Are there any good linemen who might be there in the fourth? I'd prefer to go linebacker in the first two rounds of the draft. One inside, one outside, but I see O-Line as a priority as well.
A name to think about at Right Tackle is Jordon Gross, but he is bound to have a high price tag. I'd take Stacey Andrews or Vernon Carey in a hearbeat as well.
I think that we NEED either a good Right Tackle or a good Right Guard. Both would be great. I agree with you that Hadnot could be decent at center. He's awful at guard and needs to be replaced their though.
We have needs at O-Line, Linebacker, and Running Back. It would also be nice to get a DB and a D-Lineman or two. It's hard to fill all those positions with the amount of quality players that we need. This isn't going to be an easy job for Savage, or whoever is in charge when the time comes.
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If we had a draft thread(hint hint refs) those and many other questions could answered in length..centers are always availble from 2-5 rounds.
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It's really too early to tell which guys will be viable early on the 2nd day of the draft, but there are always players like that who are developmental types.
We stand a better shot at landing pass-rushing tweeners in that area than we are of landing a guard who can start pretty quickly.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Hard to say, but at this point, it's time for Fraley to hit the bench. He's allready walked into dangerous territory by standing up for Anderson, and being a Captain means jack-squat in this league.
Can someone please riddle me why Fraley standing up for DA puts him in "dangerous territory" and even warrants being mentioned as a reason for him to be benched??? If anything it made his status GO UP in my mind. He didn't care if it was the popular view point or not...he stood by his guns.
Give me a freaking break.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Legend
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and you can't name a single Browns player who has busted his butt and hustled more than Hank has since he has been here.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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"You named Tucker the starter. I felt it was necessary to shed light on his lack of reliability"
Thanks but the light has already been shed. I try not to be redundant and I made a lengthy post regarding the OL on the first page of this thread. If I post again I try not to repeat myself as hard as that task is.
Well here is what I said regarding us not being all firmly set with what we have so as not to look foward especially in getting new blood from the draft.
OT, OG or C...the best deal for us in the 2nd round hopefully. We have to bring new blood. ES has had his durability issues, Fraley will only be as good as those surrounding him, Tucker can't be depended on. Shaffer is OK at his best.
On the 2nd post I just stated that when all is said and done - Tucker will go into camp as the starting RG...not Hadnot so the upgrade will have to be on Tucker not Hadnot.
And I did give some solutions on that first post. Right now we have the foundation...mostly built through FA. Its not going to get much better and anything close to better will be Sooooo expensive.
Draft...Draft...Draft - that is what we have to do. Of course we have other positions with needs so we can only do so much in one draft. It will be a steady task and an On going process. I've always stated that a GM/HC should never be satisfied until they have possibly an Across the Board Pro-Bowl team...and only then could he/they breathe for a season or two without more investments.
Its very realistic...  Come on Toad - don't insult yourself.
Swapping another Over paid FA for another is self defeating. Vernon Carey???
Any upgrade on our existing OL would cost Dearly and the upgrade would be minimal.
You're most definitely being unrealistic....In years past we HAD NO OL AT ALL. Over Hauls were necessary. Now you are conducting a --- I'M BETTER THAN PHIL SAVAGE in a FA overhaul. But all you will do is get us the same OK product. If you think you are a better scout than Savage and there are Pro-Bowler types out there to be gotten. Our OL will cost us close to 30-40% of the cap.
We're past that stage and your solution is to go back to Stage ONE again... 
Why cause you are smarter than Phil...
We are ready for stage two...Maybe if there is an Opportunity of a Coup like Bentley 05 (before career ending injury) sure go for it.
But going back to a FA overhaul of Mediocre OLmen - Disagree??? You bet.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Quote:
Hard to say, but at this point, it's time for Fraley to hit the bench. He's allready walked into dangerous territory by standing up for Anderson, and being a Captain means jack-squat in this league.
Can someone please riddle me why Fraley standing up for DA puts him in "dangerous territory" and even warrants being mentioned as a reason for him to be benched??? If anything it made his status GO UP in my mind. He didn't care if it was the popular view point or not...he stood by his guns.
Give me a freaking break.
God invented the "period" for a reason, which is to break statements and thoughts.
Fraley should be benched based on his play alone.
Backing Anderson as he did goes against the coaches moves. Frankly, I'm glad he backed Anderson, because the move was wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that he sided against the coaches move, and organizations don't favor players that put other players above the team.
Fraley hustles blah blah blah Fraley stood by his guns blah blah blah Fraley's been a warrior blah blah blah.........none of that matters if the player simply isn't very good.
Team captain? Meaningless. Andra Davis is a team captain and about to be looking for work.
Eo, I'll get to you when I get back from work *L*
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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All Pro
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aimlessly looking around at draft sites i found this guy...  brandon carter, TT, G, Junior. 6' 7, 354. dunno if he is gonna declare or not. i concede that i don't know anything about him except he's huge, has a mohawk and face paint. maybe im grasping at straws, heh, but i always liked players with personality.
A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
John Barrymore
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Quote:
Swapping another Over paid FA for another is self defeating. Vernon Carey???
Any upgrade on our existing OL would cost Dearly and the upgrade would be minimal.
So paying a REAL offensive guard or a REAL center REAL money is going to net only minimal results over the likes of Fraley and Hadnot?
Okay.
Sure, we saw last year that paying Stein REAL money instead of average money for guys like Andruzzi also netted minimal results, just as paying a guy like Thomas REAL money instead of average money for guys like Shelton or Shaffer only netted "minimal" results.
Yeah, tell me another joke, Eo.
We're getting exactly what we're paying for in both Fraley and Hadnot. Sure, draft their replacements if we can find linebackers and a corner through free agency. Problem is, it's easier to find linemen than 3-4 'backers on the market. It's unfortunate you aren't seeing that.
Quote:
In years past we HAD NO OL AT ALL. Over Hauls were necessary. Now you are conducting a --- I'M BETTER THAN PHIL SAVAGE in a FA overhaul. But all you will do is get us the same OK product. If you think you are a better scout than Savage and there are Pro-Bowler types out there to be gotten. Our OL will cost us close to 30-40% of the cap.
Many can argue that we have NOTHING from Stein's right-hand on. We all saw just how badly Fraley and Hadnot played. If you think those guys are fine, you're delusional.
You've no idea how much our cap will be or how much our current guys cost us in relation to the cap, so to claim a "30% to 40% of the cap" statement in a negative connotation is such a blind reach that it's embarassing. I'm embarassed for you *L*
Here, let me help.
The cap increased about 6.5% from '07 to '08, up to a number of almost $117 million.
Going with a conservative increase of 5%, that'd give us about $123 million.
So, let's talk about the offensive line's numbers.
Shaffer will count about $4.8 million against the cap.
Thomas about $7 million.
Steinbach about $6 million.
Fraley about $2 million.
Tucker about $4 million.
Hadnot about $2.5 million.
Those numbers would represent 21% of our '09 cap. As it stands, with McKinney included, that's about 23% of our cap, which doesn't include other guys. So basically, we're not too far from 30% in '08. Doesn't sound so bad now, does it 
If we signed two more guys to contracts equal to Stein, we'd be pushing 31% of our '09 cap.
That's about 6% more than what we paid last year!!!
Don't try and scare people by talking about upwards of 40% of our cap 
If Hadnot is tried at center and he works, great, problem solved. But if he doesn't, he becomes a valuable backup.
Guys like Birk and Carey aren't likely to command the biggest contracts, but even if they did, we're talking about roughly a percentage equal to what we had against our cap this year.
Quote:
Why cause you are smarter than Phil...
You've gotten pretty good at calling the Kettle black there, Pot 
Quote:
We are ready for stage two...Maybe if there is an Opportunity of a Coup like Bentley 05 (before career ending injury) sure go for it.
So let me get this straight.............you accuse me of talking about acquring pro-bowl linemen......saying it's out of line with our cap........then you say it's ok if we get a pro-bowl lineman....... 
Ok everyone not named Eo, here's reality talking: We can replace Fraley and Hadnot or Tucker with good players without adversely affecting our '09 salary cap. Don't fall for Eo's bull about it being an "overhaul" when I'm talking about TWO players. 
We're two linebackers, two offensive linemen, and one receiver away from being a playoff-quality team. Getting to the QB will make our corners look much better, and getting to the QB can be solved by getting a couple of linebackers. HELLO!?!?! From there, we can have a GOOD offensive line, not just a mediocre one. Sticking with Fraley and a broken-down Tucker matched to a backup in Hadnot at guard is a recipe for no run blocking and iffy pass blocking.
You people can be the judge. We were a good team last year with a bad defense and a good offense. Acquiring two better offensive linemen won't put us in cap Hell And considering just how sorry we've been over the years on the O-line, I'd THINK the fans around here, including Savage, would know better.
I'm confident in saying this: Savage isn't going to be dumb enough to stand pat with Fraley, Tucker, and Hadnot. We've all seen enough of those three between Thomas and Shaffer. Don't be afraid to want two new linemen. It's not going to cost us hardly any more than what was projected for us this year.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
We're two linebackers, two offensive linemen, and one receiver away from being a playoff-quality team.
well, we still need a qb too 
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With a running game and the ability to stop the run, we can get by without a great QB. The Vikings are a good example of that.
Furthermore, look at the Packers. Great QB play (Rodgers 90+ rating) Great WR play (Jennings 1100 yards and Driver 700 yards) and talent on the O-line aren't getting them anywhere without a defense.
If you gave me the choice of fixing the defense, the offensive line, or the QB, I'd take them in that order.
We can win with DA's 75 passer rating or Quinn's inexperience, but we can't with this offensive line or this defense.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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oh i agree, just jokin around.
sadly, there are others who actually believe that.
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Fix the defense!!! Fix it now!!!
I think our front 3 is okay for now. Rogers is THE ANSWER!!! Williams and the SmithS are more than decent.
Our LB's are KILLING us. Davis.. GONE!! McGinnest/ Hall... NOT THE ANSWER!!! Wimbley is okay.
Corners are decent. They play hard. They can both blitz. They can both make plays, and have made plays.
Safeties are pretty good. Pool has definitely stepped it up. Jones hasn't done much this year, but that is only b/c of injury. Otherwise, he is our poor man's Ed Reed/ Troy Polamalu.
1) Draft a MLB and OLB in rounds 1 and 2, preferably in that order (Rey of USC, and Clint Sintim of Virginia).
2) Pick up a free agent corner. If we could get the guy from the Raiders, I think our corner situation would be just fine with : Wright, McDonald, Asoymuga (sp?), Holly, and/or Daniels/ Lawson.
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the reason I started this thread is b/c IMO the right side of the OL needs some upgrades ( I said overhaul).
When Tucker played the line was very good,but that also begs the question: How good is Hank if when Tucker is out the whole right side caves?
I would agree with the statement that we need:
2 OL
1 WR
2 LBs
DBs:
Holly will be back,but I would still want to replace Cousin. I don't think that should be too difficult. Maybe a better backup at strong safety?
DL:
maybe a better back-up or two if Rubin and Leonard don't develop?
LBs:
Chris Cooley said our LBs were big but slow. That sounds like Wimbley, Davis and McGinest.
OL;
Toad covered that,nuff said
WR:
Stallworth = #3
That's 5 starters and 3 backup players. Phil could easily accomplish that over the off season,and some of the current players on the roster ( Beau Bell for one) may even be the answer.
BTW, Davis can stay as a back-up
Last edited by Line Judge; 12/14/08 10:22 AM.
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"just as paying a guy like Thomas REAL money instead of average money for guys like Shelton"
How low will you go in a debate to make yourself - APPEAR correct.
Thomas is exactly the route I'm talking about us going out there and copying now that we have Efficient FAs in their positions.
You keep stating Hadnot as your calling card. He's a backup silly. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Any upgrade on RG has to be on Tucker not Hadnot. But then Hadnot makes you look Correct...man you stoop low.
And whats this HADNOT at center as our salvation...where do you get Hadnot as a better option at center??? I mean sure if he's a backup we'd like for him to be versatile.
CAP...yeah I'm really embarrassed.
The FA market has increased with each season. Shaffer a top contract just what 3 years ago now is a bargain. But you are talking about getting STUDS and guarantee portions of a new contract. You fail to show any other of the 47 remaining players escalating monetary - Fact is you are a fool to go back to FA and more than likely you are not talking about UPGRADING....just changing Flavors all in the name of TOAD is a better Scout than Savage...
Let me know when Gurode is available at Center then you are talking about upgrades.
Stop trying to utilize your debating Flim Flam tricks - here in lies the difference from you and me in this debate.
I state we have a viable working OL for the first time since 99. You state outside of Thomas they are all bums (even though you will deny that) but in your actions of "OVER HAUL" then they must be Bums.
I say they are a real unit that now has to be IMPROVED UPON.
You...state they are a mirage and need to be OVER HAULED.
One is a state of panic and you never will receive your monies worth from FA. Of course insert here your flim flam trick of telling me how better it is to pay Joe Thomas 7 mil than Shelton - You get your Thomas' from the draft
At best you will just enact no UPGRADE what so ever just put in a bunch of guys in that will need a season to get use to each other. AGAIN
The fact that you state Vernon Carey as a viable solution is proof in point. He will either get signed with his own team if it is true that he has great potential...or he will be let loose cause he ain't worth it. But for us he would be???
I say there is an order of things...its not all Madden where you make trades and build teams and keep the dynamics into it. An OL IS A UNIT!!!! not indivduals.
And for the first time we do have a UNIT...to deny this is step one that you don't have a clue.
Now you go into Phase 2...if a Gurode becomes available in FA or a Marvel Smith at going rates...ONE GUY maybe to make us better right away. Sure utilize FA.
But to Overahul and Upgrade in FA.. silly, silly, silly.
Oh btw smarty pants - in your brilliant display and knowledge regarding the cap you totally ignore what happens to - Fraley, Hadnot, Tucker and Shaffer and their Salaries if you go out and get Equal to or Better talent via FA??? You know things like Signing Bonuses that have to be eaten??? but forget about that lets stick to football.
Phase two...You have a unit - which you will have to deny their existence to make your thoughts fly. But never the less I know we got one.
Now UPGRADE and build through the draft. The URGENCY (Panic) is not necessary. But the investment is IMPERITIVE - The only thing you and I agree with is that Thomas is the ONLY viable long term solid we got on that OL and via what source did we get him at???? Excuse me??? What was that - through FA...nah, we both know long term you go through the draft!
Now we have the luxery of a unit so that a young talent can learn...possibly come in day one and provide impact. I see that only possibly if they are a stud at RG or Center...RG only if Tucker goes down again. Center if he can viably BEAT out Fraley's experience (hard to do) or Hadnot (who somehow to you is a force at Center...I could possibly be ignorant and simply not now that Hadnot is a Center playing OG??? please set me straight if that is the case???)
But now is the time to systematically acquire talent - high in the draft, preferably rounds one or two. This is where a nice trade for DA or KW2 could apply - having multiple picks in higher rounds. Get those talents into our system...it could take year 2 before they compete for a position.
But you sir are in Panic mode - and that is totally rediculous and don't come to me and call my opinion embarassing. 
I fart more OL than you will ever know...and thats the truth
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Hers's what I think......You and Toad both know a good deal about football. But with the size of your egos I doubt both of you could walk through a door at the same time. Sheesh.........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
I fart more OL than you will ever know...and thats the truth
That's actually pretty funny In terms of how the NFL works it's about as true as saying Dorsey can lead us to a win, but funny none the less. 
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Oh btw smarty pants - in your brilliant display and knowledge regarding the cap you totally ignore what happens to - Fraley, Hadnot, Tucker and Shaffer and their Salaries if you go out and get Equal to or Better talent via FA??? You know things like Signing Bonuses that have to be eaten??? but forget about that lets stick to football.
Since Fraley and Hadnot and Tucker would become backups or remain as starters and stay on the team, we don't have to eat any bonuses against the cap. But you can't read, so I have to 'splain it to you.
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And whats this HADNOT at center as our salvation...where do you get Hadnot as a better option at center???
There's a difference between trying him at center and saying he's our "salvation."
Stooping to the level of twisting words? 
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The only thing you and I agree with is that Thomas is the ONLY viable long term solid we got on that OL
No, we don't even agree on that, because I believe Steinbach is long-term solution. Yet you don't? 
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The fact that you state Vernon Carey as a viable solution is proof in point. He will either get signed with his own team if it is true that he has great potential...or he will be let loose cause he ain't worth it. But for us he would be???
Yup, you got me there.
Wait. We have Eric Steinbach
Wait. We had signed Bentley
Wait. We had signed Tucker
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Center if he can viably BEAT out Fraley's experience (hard to do)
Hey, Mike Baab is available. It'd be hard to beat out his experience as well.
Get the point? Most of us who've watched Fraley not be able to get any push get the point.
Experience isn't everything. Matt Birk has just as much experience as Fraley, and is better. It's not that hard to do.
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Hadnot (who somehow to you is a force at Center...I could possibly be ignorant and simply not now that Hadnot is a Center playing OG??? please set me straight if that is the case???)
Back to twisting words to make it appear I'm touting Hadnot as a "force at center." You're not very good at it. Keep practicing 
I allready explained that Hadnot had played center. He started at center his Senior year at Houston. He played both guard positions AND center for the Dolphins.
I don't know if he's better than Fraley at center or not, but he's under a Fraley-esque (read: cheap) contract, so trying him there can't hurt.
But I suppose we could stay with RAC's pathetic line of thinking, which is that it's better to try and stick with what he knows instead of doing what's best for the team by trying guys in different positions for the future.
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I say they are a real unit that now has to be IMPROVED UPON.
You...state they are a mirage and need to be OVER HAULED.
Back to this crap?
Two players. TWO PLAYERS. That's not an overhaul.
Tucker is old and broken down. Like Courtney Brown, he's good when he plays, but he doesn't play enough to be relied upon.
Hadnot is a borderline backup/starter, and isn't a long-term solution at the position.
Fraley gets no push in the run game, and is now on the wrong side of his career. He likely would have been a backup had we not traded for him. He gave us a good couple of years, but he's not the same guy he was, and didn't have a step to lose.
Getting two guys and relegating Fraley and Hadnot and their REASONABLE contracts to backup status isn't an OVERHAUL.
If Tucker somehow comes back and is ready to play, great, the RG problem is solved, but if he comes into camp and doesn't have anything left in the tank, then what? Hadnot again? 
Yeah, you want to draft a guy. Fine! Where are we gonna get our linebackers, a WR, and maybe a corner? Maybe you haven't looked at the free agent market, but there aren't any guys out there that are viable who aren't top-dollar guys.
SO, it's far smarter to draft a 'backer and a rusher early on in the draft, while signing at least one guard in free agency.
There's much more to the NFL than the O-line. Try eating something else so that you're farting more than just O-line.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That looks like the dude from "The Program"
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Personally before we go off blowing cash and draft picks on the strength of our team, the OL...first I'd like to see them blocking for a RB that isnt a senior citizen. Secondly, Id like to see this unit, as is, with Tuck in at RG...that in itself is a big upgrade. Another thing I wanna see is this line operating with a consistent offense, that isnt in third and long every series. Play calling is the big culprit to our third and longs, running Lewis twice for 3 yards behind Stein and Thomas...DOES NOT WORK CHUD. Another point I'd like to add...why is it that we are trying to have a power running game behind a finesse OL? Are our coaches that high, or are they just committed to having a power running game at any costs? Why are we trying to shove the square peg into the round hole? I'd bet my right arm that if we ran a zone blocking scheme with this OL and gave Harrison the ball more...we'd have a running attack, less third and longs...and suddenly a STUD OL. Some want ProBowl players across the board on the OL...which is crazy and not rational, it will never happen..especially when we have bums at WR, LB, DE, and S. OL is NOT a problem right now, certainly if the right situation comes along we could upgrade RG or C..but overhauling and whining about our OL? Come on! 
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I'd bet my right arm that if we ran a zone blocking scheme with this OL and gave Harrison the ball more...we'd have a running attack, less third and longs...and suddenly a STUD OL.
Anyone can answer this question:
Should I tell him?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Another game, and another night of watching Fraley, Hadnot, and Shaffer get pushed around.
I focused on Fraley tonight, and watched him just get manhandled. He's done. I don't care how cheap he is, he needs to be replaced by a real center.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think you're forgetting just how stellar Thomas played.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Personally before we go off blowing cash and draft picks on the strength of our team, the OL...first I'd like to see them blocking for a RB that isnt a senior citizen.
Dang you just don't get it..you blow money on FA linemen ..you build a line THROUGH the draft..I only need to say that one freaking time.
BTW , we do run a mix of zone blocking..the right side, as it is ,incapable of blocking ..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/16/08 11:24 AM.
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You have GOT to be kidding me.
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Thanks for your usual Football contribution.
What possibly do you even know about my ego...all you see is people who know more than you and you got to knock them cause you simply cannot debate in like fashion....with some football knowledge.
I didn't know this thread was about ego. Quit your Highbrowing holier than though crapola...actually read the threads. Obsorb some knowledge and form your own opinion. Yes, even you could actually someday contribute in a Football thread.
Toad...you replied to me like a beat rug. Glad to know I won that one
Oh btw - my only thing against putting my Apples in the long term basket with ES is the fact physically I don't think he can make it. He's tough and really plays hurt and tries not to miss any games. But he gets beat up from day one. There will not be a season maybe where he plays it without missing a game??? So in the scheme of things in building from the draft. If you got a kid that falls to you in the first two rounds thats a steal and could take his position over. Fine you get him...and let him learn. Somewhere along the line ES will get injured and have to miss a game or two...now we have somebody to fill in and hopefully someday will man the position better so that we could trade and upgrade on ES.
Long Term...sure if he's healthy but in his two season here he's been hurt and came to us with back problems that always seems to rear its ugly head. Sure he makes his starts remarkably but his play does diminish like most players when they are hurt.
So I do think eventually he too should get an upgrade in the draft.
RG, C, RT --- then a distant 4th don't forget about a Yute for ES.
Joe T - I can envision here for 10 seasons straight!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Thanks for proving my point.........If you and Toad (to a lesser extent) would stop insulting each other (and anyone else who mildly disagrees with you) perhaps your "takes" would be a bit more readable. Other than that thanks for the advice...........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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If you and Toad (to a lesser extent) would stop insulting each other (and anyone else who mildly disagrees with you) perhaps your "takes" would be a bit more readable.
Screw you, Otto.
My ego is every bit as big as Eo's, and I can be every bit as abrassive as him. Now give me the credit I'm due or take the comment back
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I know. I was trying to be kind........Won't happen again....... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Dang you just don't get it..you blow money on FA linemen ..you build a line THROUGH the draft..I only need to say that one freaking time.
Yes, as I said...cash and picks...you do have to pay people you draft. So are you saying the Browns should be throwing their early draft picks into the OL?
Because that is the only way it will be overhauled, is using first day picks on it and adding a decent FA.
Running a "mix" of zone blocking on one side of the OL...is not a zone blocking scheme. Most of our runs are not zone blocked, we want a hat on a hat and to use a FB to blow up a hole for Jamal.
Again...we are trying to use a finesse line as a power OL...we are mixing water and oil.
But then again...thats whats this coaching staff does best! I knew they werent all bad!
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Teams like the Bronco's have been running zone-blocking schemes for years, and they have had the smallest line in the league numerous times during those years.
The problems with our line don't involve the wrong linemen in the wrong scheme. They involve poor linemen, period. 
Fraley gets no push at all, and was let go by a WCO team. That's very telling. We got more out of him than most of us expected, but he's done as a starter. Hadnot is just a backup. Shaffer looks like a backup after playing well last year. Maybe it's time to shove him to guard.
Stein and Thomas aren't power-blockers. They are finesse blockers. They actually work better in zone-blocking schemes than anything else. The problem is that the interior of our line is playing like crap. After re-watching the last game again last night yet again, they didn't even look like they knew which target to hit on the 2nd level, but it didn't matter since they couldn't even GET to the 2nd level
Good linemen can play in any offense. We simply need a couple of new guys to put Fraley and Hadnot where they belong: On the bench.
It'd be nice if Tucker could come back, but to expect that of him is unrealistic. He could be a starter on opening day and play well, or he could be a stiff and be cut in camp. We can't have him as our only plan at RG.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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"Thanks for proving my point..."
Still yet - listen how bout this...go to Tailgate and start a thread about Egos
I'm talking OL and you are in this trip thing about condescending posts...ummm maybe we just don't respect your football...here we are talking about OL and you are still on this crapola....and the only point I proved is that I'm still waiting for a football post from you...odd cause last I looked this was the PURE FOOTBALL Forum.
enough already.
Toad: "Teams like the Bronco's have been running zone-blocking schemes for years, and they have had the smallest line in the league numerous times during those years."
they also play half their games a mile up and have built their past exploits on that fact and a great home field advantage. And they always had a small OL only until they got TD and was able to infuse the running game into that Zone blocking scheme did they gain the success that took them into the SB and finally WIN.
I know, I know they have to play half their games away...but look at their Away record compared with the home. A pretty big separation compared with other teams.
Also...can you remember any of their OLmen leaving and having a successful career anywhere else??? Without a doubt as everyone else went for the Big Fatties they were getting the Meanest, technically sound smaller OLmen around.
But Fraley is a Zone Blocking OLman...should we upgrade on him...Sure. And this seems to be the draft to do so...5 excellent Centers that are top 100 prospects and should go within the first 3 rounds.
Anyways the Bronco's OLmen were built more so for the 1 mile up atmosphere than for the zone blocking scheme. So whats their excuse now? Cause every OL does some form of zone blocking now so they don't have the Pick of the litter any more.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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On the subject of O-line......one of the scrubs O-line freaks couldn't wait to get out of town....Shaun O'Hara just made the Pro-Bowl.
It doesn't start with the O-line....it ends with the O-line....we have a 100 million dollar O-line, and we can't score points.
Guys like O'Hara....Roman Oben...Lomas Brown...they were good linemen..O-line is over rated around this place.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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On the subject of O-line......one of the scrubs O-line freaks couldn't wait to get out of town....Shaun O'Hara just made the Pro-Bowl.
I wondered when someone would mention this. Thanks.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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O'hara was shoved around here. He's developed over the last two years.
Faine was shoved around as well, and couldn't stay healthy.
Seeing them now doesn't disuade me from knowing Fraley is soft. At this point in his career, Fraley isn't going to get better.
Eo, if we could grab a starting center in the draft while simultaneously grabbing two linebackers, a WR, and a guard, I'd welcome it.
I still want to see how much money Birk is going to command........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't disagree about Fraley.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Sorry no - you've always underated OLmen...thinking you don't have to invest much into them to get them.
O'Hara - I always liked O'Hara as a possible Center but we only played him there 3 games and that was prior to him becoming a regular starter. Regular starter we started him at OG and out of position.
I'm glad for him but fail to see your point.
Oben? Sorry but he was not good here for the simple reason his Knee was shot. Only after successful MicroFracture surgery (when we let him go when he got the surgery) which was not a very successful operation at the time did he get a couple of good seasons in. So again you are saying words that are irrelevant to this team.
Lomas Brown...his career was over and he left here for one last hurrah on a team that had an OL so that he could be the Weak Link of the unit. He would have been good here if we had a UNIT to compliment him. Again irrelevant
"It doesn't start with the O-line....it ends with the O-line."
Oh geeesh you din't say that did you Peen? Lets see there probably isn't a REAL FOOTBALL person in the creation of the game who thinks that. They will all tell you - It starts with the OL...or LOS.
Over rated??? You just don't get it... 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I agree toad, great players (offensive lineman) can play in any scheme...but why not cater to your players strengths? The strength of this OL is their speed and quickness.
If we ran a zone blocking scheme with a cut and slash running back...that makes our OL better. Fact is we will always have some weakness, but rather than have unrealistic talent expectations...why not use a scheme that makes your players seem better than they are?
I realize Hank is not a stud..but you will always have somebody on the OL who isnt...always. And if the right C is available, I think whoever is in charge will look at him.
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