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this was something i posted in the "looking back" section but now realize will be part of an offseason-long discussion anyways so we might as well start the thread now. my overall point is, given the failure of NE coordinators and the success of NE without them, how do we know for sure that quinn is the guy? there are parts of the post that are context-based for that thread and but it is in that context that i think i stumbled on some interesting points. Quote:
is DA better than quinn? dunno. i have an opinion and i also have an opinion on who's ceiling is higher but that's something we just need to wait and see, if we even have an opportunity to find out within our same system and same players. that said, what i do know is one player has a significantly higher mountain to climb just to be accepted, yet ironically, he provided more of what we've been looking for, for years.
what i will also say is this: in recent history, i haven't seen a single 1st round-projected qb be questioned before or right after him being drafted. i've never saw the scouts/media/nfl staff say anything of question on leinart, young, cutler, rodgers, even alex smith. think about these points:
-before we picked quinn, there were scouts saying quinn wasn't even a first day pick. yes they were in the minority and many of us would argue that's because they're just hating and trying to bring attention to themselves, but then again, WE picked him. after we picked quinn, we hear that the dolphins staff and others (i think the lions) said they had quinn grouped with trent edwards and other qbs instead of with russell in the 1st round. when have we heard another team say that about leinart or cutler or smith?
-we can say charlie weiss develops qbs by saying "look at what he did with tom brady" but what has he done with notre dame? you can say they lack the ability but did he develop the next qb?
-now look at matt cassell. he developed quite a bit without weiss. in fact, he MIRRORS tom brady's first season. is that a coincidence that cassell developed without weiss or should we be saying "maybe we should take new england's qb coach instead of our william and mary wannabe qb coach"?
with all these factors to consider, suddenly quinn becomes more and more of a question mark. in all honesty, and i know everyone here would hate to read this, quinn has the set up to be a huge bust. da, though, can make the big play, he'll throw a couple picks but with a good defense, like in pittsburgh's case, it's irrelevant. da, bailing the defense out all of the 2007 season, won 10 games without a defense and because he and the playcalling lost the cinci game, he is hated here more than any other brown in recent history? hell, favre threw for 22 tds and 22 ints and the jets were still 9-7 at the end of the season, and at one point was 8-3 beating the titans easily.
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RAC didn't draft BQ. As a matter of fact, he was quite relunctant to give up on the "DA experiment" even after it was quite evident that DA wasn't the answer.
Phil drafted Quinn. Phil was from the Rats not the Pats. Nobody "knows". But he had one healthy start with three days to prepare and we put up 30 points.
So if he isn't the "answer"? Under the circumstances, he's far closer to the answer than anything else here. And I'd be willing to BET whoever comes in here will see it the same way.
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i think you're missing my point. i'm not connecting the quinn pick to rac. what i'm connecting is everyone arguing that 1) quinn will succeed because he was in a pro-style offense under weiss 2) weiss can develop qbs because, look at tom brady but now, weiss hasn't developed another qb and with the blooming of cassel, Quote:
How about this stat line for the man who played 15 and three-quarters NFL games after not starting a game since high school: 11-5 record, .634 completion rate, 3,693 yards passing, 21 touchdowns, 11 interceptions, 89.4 rating.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/peter_king/12/29/Week17/5.html
do we really credit tom brady's success on weiss? additionally, we know weiss wanted to get his good friend to draft quinn at no 3 because he can then sell that he, weiss, took a qb he didn't even pick and made him into a top 5 nfl prospect, making recruitment for any player on offense exponentially easier.
and one healthy start with 30 points? i already replied to this in another thread:
1) broncos
2) they prepared for DA, so they allowed all the underneath
3) quinn is perfectly fine doing the dink and dunk (his first preseason game against the lions, everyone flipped because he did so well, even though he didn't connect a pass longer than 5 yards)
3) it was the broncos defense.
4) monday night is the only time when braylon edwards catches passes. look it up. only 100 yard games on monday night games.
like i said, quinn is set up to be a huge bust. further, i would completely disagree that DA is not the answer. i don't understand how so many fans, who want quinn to succeed, only remember the failures of DA and not any of the good/improvements but i don't want to work that hard to make everyone "remember" again.
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Quote:
only remember the failures of DA and not any of the good/improvements
Having a crappier second half of the season than the first is NOT improving. Just FYI.
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yea, that's it. because, with quinn in at 50% completion, there isn't the possibility that the whole offense was in disarray. now with the gm and coach gone too, it's not possible that DA improved even though the numbers look worse 
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With a broken finger.
You have no relivant point here.
Poor accuracy and decision making. Just watch, DA is done.
Last edited by PitDAWG; 12/29/08 04:36 PM.
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Don't throw BQ in my face, dong. I have never said he is our answer. I'm just telling you that playing worse as the season wears on is not improving (no matter WHO your QB is). Quote:
now with the gm and coach gone too, it's not possible that DA improved even though the numbers look worse
What the hell? 
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a broken finger that quinn said had no impact until after his last game.
my point is quinn COULD be vastly overrated given the points that i made, which are all valid points. i see no proof or even opinion on how i could be wrong. we also saw poor decision-making by quinn in the first 3 games that were not finger-related.
Last edited by dong; 12/29/08 04:46 PM.
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ok DawgMichelle , i was just pointing out that neither qb completed over 50% of their passes and quinn should've given all the glowing reviews on this board. Quote:
What the hell?
i was pointing out that, in addition to the disarray to the offense on a whole, now that the gm and hc was fired, it's clear that no one was going to succeed. DA's numbers were worse than 07 no doubt, but his skill set improved.
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a broken finger that quinn said had no impact until after his last game.
So he's not a whiner. Thank God fot that. Cause it seems we have enough of them around here.
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Keep reaching Dong, these threads and posts of your's are getting pretty telling and you are grasping at straws. We all know what you want to happen, and it doesn't look good for you. DA looked very bad for the last part of last season and the first part of this season, pretty much giving him a solid year of crapiness to assess him by. Quinn had three starts and played half that time with a broken finger. We have virtually nothing on him to make any kind of assessment. He gets his turn now, DA has had his and failed. If Quinn isn't the answer then we are back to square one. Let's all just hope he is.
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Quote:
Quote:
a broken finger that quinn said had no impact until after his last game.
So he's not a whiner. Thank God fot that. Cause it seems we have enough of them around here.
look i don't wnat to make this a joke of a thread so let's just talk football. but you're right, good thing the one person who has the most to whine about, doesn't and never throws a teammate under the bus since he's the captain.
i edited my other reply before seeing you replied so here's the other part:
my point is quinn COULD be vastly overrated given the points that i made, which are all valid points. i see no proof or even opinion on how i could be wrong. we also saw poor decision-making by quinn in the first 3 games that were not finger-related.
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Take a look at what he did before his broken finger. I doubt you'll want to look at it realisticly and you obviously won't like what you find. this whole thing is silly. I'm done here with this totaly contrived non issue.
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Quote:
this whole thing is silly. I'm done here with this totaly contrived non issue.
Really......RESIGN COUCH 
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well let me start by saying that i think DA could be a much better qb than quinn. that's my opinion and i, as well as my fiance can attest, can definitely be wrong. that said, i don't think i am.
as far as my posts being "telling," the only thing "telling" is how i feel about most browns fan in that we finally have a qb who could improve and build on his skill set yet all we do is pick at his every minuscule mistake because another qb is waiting in the wings.
you're right that we don't have much to evaluate quinn but with this season, it's not much to evaluate DA either. if DA throws somewhere where no brown is, how do we argue if it's DA's fault or the receivers? we can't. i hope quinn is the answer too but i'd like to see DA succeed, which i don't think is wrong. further, i just can't shake the feeling that quinn is going to be average at best.
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Give it up dong...its ok to admit your wrong about DA...you don't have to throw Quinn under the bus. Derek Anderson will NEVER be anything in this league except a physically gifted player that is medocire at best. But, by all means, keep being wowed at his size and arm strength, because there is NOTHING ELSE TO DEREK. He has yet to slow down the game, he hasnt improved his short throws, he still makes [bad] decisions. DA goes as far as the people around can carry him.... We havent seen near enough of Quinn....he was pretty good this year considering it was his first bit of action. I'm not worried about him, whoever comes in here will see that Quinn is the better bet to be the QB of this team. IF they don't then we're screwed anyway because that will mean we have incompitent people in here. No football person is going to go with DA after he's shown over and over hes nothing, when you have a potential packed young QB on the roster. Give it up. 
Last edited by Referee6; 12/30/08 01:40 PM.
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i never admit anythign about DA nor did i throw quinn under the bus. if anything, i strengthened my affirmation that i think DA will be the better qb. watch, we'll either pay DA's $5 million or have him restructure and we'll see the qb batter play out.
why is it that i can post legit points and no one wants to discuss them at all and instead this thread becomes a joke. here's my point:
do we know that quinn is the qb we think he is when
1) weiss hasn't developed another qb
2) weiss' ulterior motives for quinn to succeed
3) cassel developed from near-cut to tom brady #2, without starting a game since high school
3b) we don't know if weiss deserves the credit for tom brady's performance
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Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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the guy has started 3 games.
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I'm going to "LOL" @ this inept organization (including the fans) in about 3 years when disgruntled fans finally boo the golden boy off CBS after another losing season and being mired in year 3 of yet ANOTHER rebuild. Meanwhile DA will have been to another pro-bowl and possibly (depending on where he ends up) a playoff appearance or two.
You guys are laughable.
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I think . . . Quinn is more of a WCO type QB and Derek is more of a Martz type QB.
It's all going to be a matter of what type of team the next staff wants.
All the above examining you have done is nice but it's several months old, not to mention a bit out of whack
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that's true. the new angle was the development of cassel, which i felt showed that weis may not have been as instrumental in that as we once thought.
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Good points, PitD. wanted to add a few musings as well. I think Dorsey is deadwood and worth little to us. Just not NFL makeup IMO. If BQ is the answer, and who knows? Then I say we sign a decent vet to help bring him along. We would have had more use for that than the Dorsey tutoring plan. And given the radically awful Chud playcalling or RAC or whoever messed it up, what kind of QB do we need to win in our division? We get Stallworth and can't dress him, guarantee huge $$$, then when we can use him, especially with BE's breakdowns and drops, we throw short to folks. Point is, we draft for one thing, and our system coords for whatever reason failed consistently to field their strengths. DA is trade bait perhaps, but we loved it when he challenged em deep. A few picks, that quit, and he was not developed or coached out of probs or whatever you wish to call it. Get real receivers and a vertical game plan. The short side throwing sucked bunches of times, and we never made it work, and we never prepped any differently.
As an afterthought, I charted yesterday. I was able to predict about 40 % of the plays, which side, or what was coming. Think we need to cut deep and decide what we need, what we have that works, and what we can be. Obviously that remained beyond RAC's reach. I think he is a fine man, but great players make great coaches; great coaches make great players, and maybe players hurt a fine reputation with this squad.
We need to upgrade some position folks and demand what they are about. Less explanation, more hard work, and demand results. Change starts now, for better or worse.
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Quote:
my point is quinn COULD be vastly overrated given the points that i made, which are all valid points. i see no proof or even opinion on how i could be wrong.
Your points largely rely on the fact that Weiss hasn't developed another great QB at ND and that Cassel is pretty good in NE... neither of which prove much of anything... The Steelers are just as good without Cowher, so maybe it wasn't Cowher.. who would want him? I watched Quinn in college as a lot of people did and he had quite a bit of success with much less talent than a lot of other QBs had... I base my opinion on watching him play, not on the extraneous factors that you keep bringing up.
Quote:
we also saw poor decision-making by quinn in the first 3 games that were not finger-related.
DA got 3 starts his first year here and the staff was so impressed they went back to Charlie Frye and DA couldn't beat him out in a competition the following year... 3 games (on a team which is coming apart at the seams any way) means little.
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Just my opinion, Dong, but we have an interesting point to pester here. So bear with me for my take. I think DA is a decent player, well above average physical skills, and that AS IS, will never be more than an adequate backup QB in the NFL. Part of his success was the long ball when he was unknown. He had success because CHud stretched the field, BE decided to play ball and not drop everything he juggled, and Chud went after people more. Then DA fell off, and he looked lousy in the ProBowl we mention in his favor. He didn't match, measure up, or resemble the others there, his peers. Set the bar as you like, but his results when needed were not there, and that was multiple times last season. If you notice, once the teams got about 6 weeks of film to grind, his performance stalled.
Now I said AS IS, because he has awful habits. Some have an off day, but DA when he is bad troughs much worse than most IMO. His locking on, shallow drop, dodge em ability, camps with the ball, etc. could be helped. If he did shotgun more; if he was rolling pocket calls, if they stop trying to make the touch and lateral/short game work, and if he improved these things, eliminated some weaknesses as if he was developing and changing, I think he has real upside. But Chud or someone called a different game that cheated him and amplified his weakness, and it is a shame, because a lot of this season was lousy O decisions. Either CHud can't or refused to adjust and change. I believe RAC or somebody with little sense of NFL offense called em. And they did nothing to help a struggling O, generated about as little as they could, and I hated watching it. DA may improve. BQ had fire and deserves a chance with a legitimate OC who calls to his and the team's strength. I go with BQ, cause I think he has been thrown under a political bus with RAC and Savage. No excuses! Produce TDs. Focus on it like a laser. And put the sideline mismanagement behind us.
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Yo, Dong. Weiss isn't playing. No points for anything you do no matter how ab fab. This crystal ball stuff is a stretch. DA is not good enuff as is IMO. BQ may not be either, but he has not had but what 3 starts. Saw enough the DA meltdown. Vitamin Pine is a real motivator. 
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Quote:
retarted
Try "retarded". Otherwise one would be recreating pastries. 
Decision making is not Derek's biggest weakness. I would think that we now have enough film of DA for the next coach to conclude that Brady is the starter.
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I understand what you are saying.
I am not down on Quinn by any means, but I do have some reservations.
First...Brady was passed over by several teams, so at least in those teams eyes, there was something that made some of the other players better.
Second...I think Phil was a pretty good talent guy, but QB might not have been his strong suit even though he played the position.
Let's put it this way...if Sam Bradford or Matt Stafford is on the board when we pick, people shouldn't be totally shocked if we elected to select them in round 1.
If Pioli is the guy, I suspect it will all depend on where he had BQ rated a few years ago.
Was he like Savage who liked what he saw, or was he like some of the others who saw Quinn as a lower round talent?? I think TSN had Quinn rated as a 3rd round talent.
I agree that was probably low, but that is showing you the wide fluctuation in how the kid was rated by various scouts.
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I think that the next head coach will have to decide whether or not the supporting cast had an impact regarding the play of Quinn and/or Anderson ..... if so, then to what degree ...... and given that, which guy fits their particular system better.
It's much like every other spot on the team. The only difference is that i can now see both Quinn and Anderson here for another year ... no matter which way the decision goes.
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I pretty much agree YTown.
I would love to see both with the team. With a new HC, GM and cap issues etc., etc., I don't have a clue what to expect.
DA can move an offense and with that can play a key role in bringing us back from behind as well as building a lead. Film does show this. Film also shows us that he can have problems with executing what appear to be some elementary things.
The book is out on Brady, but I do believe that he gets the nod by default. Jmho.
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"my overall point is, given the failure of NE coordinators and the success of NE without them, how do we know for sure that quinn is the guy?"
Sorry, Me thinks you don't have an overall point except that you're just a DA guy pulling straws... 
Its just like me saying...giving the failures of the same people that draft DA and now Haubaugh came in and got Flacco maybe it wasn't their system just they didn't know how to pick QBs...ergo DA is from that tree Silly huh? Well now you know how I felt reading your Point.
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flacco is an interesting point, eo. see, flacco was pretty much a nobody, right? no real pedigree, transferred to a lower division so he can see playing time yet was drafted and playing very well at this time. how is flacco doing so well? wasn't he pretty much just an arm? is it because he has a similar cool like DA? or is it because he has such strong support from the team overall? a top defense, good running, and great playcalling by cam cameron, aka "big" chud? finally, would DA do as well as flacco if they simply switched places? if you say yes, which i do, then maybe it's not all DA?
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Dong, it's not "all" DA, that's been pretty obivous. However, DA hasn't at this point improved his areas of weaknesses whereas Flacco did during the season.
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fair enough. i've been meaning to ask you if it was felt by the staff that DA did not improve at all. from what i've seen, through the season, he had improved in his touch passes (lewis showed that he wasn't the best back to throw to anyways, like against pittsburgh this week) as well as his decision making. it wasn't a remarkable improvement but the improvement and ability was there. i also think it's hard to judge any qb this season, including quinn, on this season given all the chaos on offense.
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Those that I talk to liked DA alot and saw alot of potential. However, they were frustrated by his lack of improvement. I can't say for sure what the entire staff those because those I talk to aren't just part of the coaching staff. I can tell you the general consensus was that DA teased you with his talent, but wasn't improving some pretty basic things. It's like the old saying about another player I can't recall off the top of my head. You'll fall in love with him and he'll break your heart.
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Quote:
Phil drafted Quinn. Phil was from the Rats not the Pats. Nobody "knows". But he had one healthy start with three days to prepare and we put up 30 points.
Lets not forget that it was against at that time the leagues worst defense. The following week (injured or not) after a team got film on him, Quinn was shut down.
I'm not saying that Quinn's game is limited. We will truly see what he has next year. At least we'll still have both him and DA for good depth.
No, the new coach and GM will not ship DA out because of his contract. Quinn and DA will both compete and start for the starting job next preseason I'm sure under the new staff.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692 |
Quote:
Quote:
only remember the failures of DA and not any of the good/improvements
Having a crappier second half of the season than the first is NOT improving. Just FYI.
Untrue statement. Last I remember DA's play was on the rise when he got yanked. Many on here argued that it wasn't a good time to pull him.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044
Dawg Talker
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OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044 |
that sounds fair, thanks. i'm wondering if that player is lee suggs? i know he broke my heart a couple times. i just hope that we manage DA's $5 million bonus in a way that doesn't many everyone go  and just let them battle it out. if we can bring a true qb development person in, i'd hope for the best.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692 |
I would like to see both DA and Quinn improve in the off season and this preseason be a spectacular shootout between those two. I don't think DA handles the pressure of Quinn well though. I think Quinn handle's the pressure of competition pretty well. That's easier when you have the people of Ohio behind you. Now as a person, I hope he handles the limelight well and stories of arrogance that I've heard on here be untrue.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,389
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,389 |
Quote:
Dong, it's not "all" DA, that's been pretty obivous. However, DA hasn't at this point improved his areas of weaknesses whereas Flacco did during the season.
But who's fault is it that there was no improvement? His or a certain QB coach that I have complained about since the day we hired him?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum new england (weiss, cassell, etc)
and if it says anything about
quinn
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