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I thought of this right away when we found out that Savage had been fired. Did we, as fans, take the correct side when we came to Phil Savage's aid when John Collins tried to force him out? Maybe Collins had Savage figured out and let Lerner know he should go. Lerner was ready to make the move when we the fans found out and responded overwhelmingly in favor of keeping Savage and getting rid of Collins.
So, again, the question is, did we back the wrong horse in that race?
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Go Irish!
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I remember getting a phone call that night informing me of the "issues" in Cleveland and I was livid that Savage was on his way out. Looks like that may have been for the best. Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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I know hindsight is 20/20 - but the answer is truly more difficult than this. Who would we have replaced him with at the time? Would Romeo have had more flexibility to hire and fire his staff as he pleased? Would that have made a difference for him and us? Would the new GM have given Romeo players he wanted and would have fit his schemes?
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Whats this "WE" that you speak of?
If Randy is making decisions based on what the fans think... "we" are in deep horse pucky.
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no, the issues at the time revolved around collins thinking savage was scouting too much and a power struggle. just because there are new issues that we did not know about does not mean that we made the wrong choice. savage was doing his job and collins did not approve.
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Quote:
no, the issues at the time revolved around collins thinking savage was scouting too much and a power struggle. just because there are new issues that we did not know about does not mean that we made the wrong choice. savage was doing his job and collins did not approve.
Being out scouting all the time was one of the reasons that Kosar gave Triv today for a shortcoming of Savage's. He was away from the office too much and didn't allow enough time to perform the other tasks of a GM well.
Oh - and Saint - I agree with you in regards to the 'we' statements, but it did seem like 'we' had something to do with Lerner siding with Savage. Considering Collins was moved to another of Savage's businesses, if I remember correctly.
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I believe you do remember correctly.. Collins current postion escapes my aging feeble memory at the moment.
SaintDawg™
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So, again, the question is, did we back the wrong horse in that race?
Not based on the info we had at the time. If you recall, we had absolutely no quality personnel to put on the field. So- we hire a GM to do that very thing. Now, we were being asked to swallow the idea that a "football guy" was being ousted in favor of a marketing exec after only one year? Given all the info we were privvy to, the reaction was correct and predictable.
Since Collins wasn't qualified to draft players, and Savage turned out later to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, it's apparent to me that both guys were, as you put it, "the wrong horse."
The only good I can see from any of this is that Randy has an opportunity to learn from the mistakes made in the Phil/RAC scenario, and make better choices this time.
I still don't miss John Collins at all... for any reason. That's not malice- it's just apathy.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Well...in the decision there...looks it.
However, John Collins had some radical ideas that idk if i was on board with. He was responsible for a number of logos and those hideous orange jerseys.
While we may have made a bad choice...i dont think john collins belonged here. He wanted too much change...in logos and colors and such.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I was a big Savage booster; really glad he prevailed over Collins way back when. But he threw me off by simply mishandling the position. His drafts baffled me. Why didn't he tender DA instead of locking him in for three years? An extension for RAC after only one good season? Tossing the Winslow staph situation off on Romeo, the e-mail debacle, and on and on. Oh, well, he's history now.
We have no idea if Collins would have done the Browns any good. But I'm glad Phil is gone and look forward to the team's future.
[color:"red"]"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
---Leonardo daVinci
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Whats this "WE" that you speak of?
If Randy is making decisions based on what the fans think... "we" are in deep horse pucky.
Exactly, Our fans comments dont mean didly on matter such as this, We may think they do in our own little Browns world on this web-site, but dont for a minute think in real life they do. We get to whine, grip, critisize & complane, but we dont write the checks so we dont get a say.Randy did what randy thought best at that point, regardless of what we on dawgtalk.net thought.
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I think that looking back, you could say maybe Randy made the wrong move, but the fans (that would be us) thought it was the right move at the time.
But I don't think it was a mistake. Not really.
We were a team in need of direction on the FOOTBALL side of things. Collins may have been a good adminstrator, but he wasn't a football side of the business guy.
At that moment in time, there really wasn't much of a choice for Randy. The team looked improved over what was there after Davis. We improved our record over the year before.. RAC seemed in control and he backed Savage.
Jim Brown and Bernie Kosar supposedly backed Savage.
There was also, under Collins, an apparent disconnect with the fans as well.
Then there was Braylongate. Savage and McCracken have Edwards all set to sign the deal... Edwards comes to town, thinking the deal is just a signature away from being done and suddenly, it's reported that Collins put a clause in the deal that the Browns would control BE's Ad rights..
No No, there was plenty of reasons to dump Collins without even thinking about Savage. So NO,, it wasn't really a mistake. It was what was needed at that moment.
JMO however.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I was about to commend you and say for once you got it all right ..until you said..
Jim Brown and Bernie Kosar supposedly backed Savage.
Mr.Opinion DIDN'T LIKE Opie..he wanted him out..he said he was too egotisical and he wasn't the right person in place..
I do believe Kosar liked Phil at the time but yesterday he blasted him in a calm manner..
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Quote:
I thought of this right away when we found out that Savage had been fired. Did we, as fans, take the correct side when we came to Phil Savage's aid when John Collins tried to force him out? Maybe Collins had Savage figured out and let Lerner know he should go. Lerner was ready to make the move when we the fans found out and responded overwhelmingly in favor of keeping Savage and getting rid of Collins.
So, again, the question is, did we back the wrong horse in that race?
To me it was never a case of backing Collins...it was just the way the whole thing went down that threw up the red flags on Savage for me.
Savage wasn't running the team as a GM should and Phil was a guy who wanted the center of attention...and I said so 3-4 years ago when all of that was happening.
I also made a comment that it looked to me as if Savage was building the team for the next coach...he was building a team the way he envisioned it...not what was going to work best for the current staff.
I was laughed at...
Oh well
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think keeping Savage helped us considerably. It was a peeing contest, and Savage did a better job as far as what people and the scout organization needed. Maybe not the best drafts and acquisitions for fan satisfaction, but Christ Himself might walk across Lake Erie to Berea training camp, and some fans would question sincerity, others critique Him, second guess His being there or His judgment, etc. I really think in the power struggle, Collins only hook was ties to Lerner and some very "unfootballish" or not NFL type decisions were mase by a non-Browns kinda suit. Savage was the better of two evils at that junction. Much of the problem stuff started after his promotion, and he really handled misduties. Think Lerner made the right, hard choice at that point. After that, maybe the promotion was a mistake, and Savage throwing weight around too much. But given the sideline incompetence, everybody was anxious to stop defending losing football decisions that were apparently written in Rock. Just saying.  
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Peen...so your saying you had Savage pegged before he served his first year as GM of the Browns?
Sorry Peen, I don't believe your that good.
Also, if Crennel felt Savage was undercutting his ability get the players Crennel wanted, why did RAC go to Lerner and stand up for Savage?
It's so easy to look back and claim I felt this way about so and so...but the fact is, after the 10-6 record just one short year ago, I didn't hear one Browns fan calling for Savages skin.
Peen, were you happy a year ago with Savage and Crennel?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Peen...so your saying you had Savage pegged before he served his first year as GM of the Browns?
All I am saying is I was on the Collins side of that debate for the reasons listed...and those reason 3-4 years ago are now the reason the guy was dumped.
You figure it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Here is a little some I found from 2 years ago MAC...to the day Quote:
Re: When Romeo gets the boot...what kind of coach? [Re: SaintDawg]
#74806 - 12/29/06 06:19 AM
Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote Quick Reply Quick Reply
The problem is GM means he is THE manager....and managers have to be invloved in the details.
Sorry....if he is a scout, call him chief of scouting. If he is GM, then he is GM. He can't be any more involved in the player aspect than anything else....even we know they all are.
The point is he can't just ignore the other stuff. I think that was the problem Collins had.....and he should have.
I think Shep is correct....right now, I don't think we have a set 'set-up". It is evolving.
But at some point, I think Lerner is going to have a problem having to pay people more money because they are having to take on more responsibility because the guy he has as GM is really only functioning as super scout while making GM pay.
Sooner or later this will come to a head.
I can find more...that was just the first thing I found since you seem to have a failing memory and don't believe what I am saying.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Quote:
I thought of this right away when we found out that Savage had been fired. Did we, as fans, take the correct side when we came to Phil Savage's aid when John Collins tried to force him out? Maybe Collins had Savage figured out and let Lerner know he should go. Lerner was ready to make the move when we the fans found out and responded overwhelmingly in favor of keeping Savage and getting rid of Collins.
So, again, the question is, did we back the wrong horse in that race?
To me it was never a case of backing Collins...it was just the way the whole thing went down that threw up the red flags on Savage for me.
Savage wasn't running the team as a GM should and Phil was a guy who wanted the center of attention...and I said so 3-4 years ago when all of that was happening.
I also made a comment that it looked to me as if Savage was building the team for the next coach...he was building a team the way he envisioned it...not what was going to work best for the current staff.
I was laughed at...
Oh well
Peen...the way I take your above comment is you want us to believe you had Savage figured out before he finished his first year as the Browns GM?...Is that what your claiming?
I notice you did not answer any of my questions, including the one above or this question...
.... if Crennel felt Savage was undercutting his ability get the players Crennel wanted, why did RAC go to Lerner and stand up for Savage?
Peen, were you happy with Crennel and Savage after our 10-6 season just one year ago?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Quote:
Here is a little some I found from 2 years ago MAC...to the day
Quote:
Re: When Romeo gets the boot...what kind of coach? [Re: SaintDawg]
#74806 - 12/29/06 06:19 AM
Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote Quick Reply Quick Reply
The problem is GM means he is THE manager....and managers have to be invloved in the details.
Sorry....if he is a scout, call him chief of scouting. If he is GM, then he is GM. He can't be any more involved in the player aspect than anything else....even we know they all are.
The point is he can't just ignore the other stuff. I think that was the problem Collins had.....and he should have.
I think Shep is correct....right now, I don't think we have a set 'set-up". It is evolving.
But at some point, I think Lerner is going to have a problem having to pay people more money because they are having to take on more responsibility because the guy he has as GM is really only functioning as super scout while making GM pay.
Sooner or later this will come to a head.
I can find more...that was just the first thing I found since you seem to have a failing memory and don't believe what I am saying.
Peen, your not claiming you had it all figured out when Savage was nearly fired due meddling by John Collins?
What you just posted above, the evidence, was nearly a year after the Collins/Savage incident where Savage was almost fired...correct?
Your trying to claim you formed your opinion of Savage a year after the incident occurred.
The posts you are using are your comments and others comments after the disappointing 4-12, 2006 season ended, not after the Collins/Savage incident.
Everyone was bummed after the 4-12 season but then the team went 10-6 the very next year. What were saying about Savage after the 2007 season?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Go away Mac...the archives only go back 3 years...there are people on here that have recall...I can't help it if you don't.
Have a great New Year.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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He was who you thought he was.
I remember. And if nobody else remembers or is willing to give you credit for it, I will.
And I was on the other side of the fence. I got it wrong.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I'll give you some props..but it also blows up your Rac/Phil are tied together like twins..
I still felt it was the right thing to do to keep Savage..I think he started to turn after that and after Rac messed with Carthon.
Now take the pat and don't try to prove they're tied together because they weren't.
Phil handicapped Rac ..but even Rac had his own bullet to bite..he never worked against Phil..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/30/08 12:19 PM.
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The Browns did the right thing by keeping Savage. I just think the whole Collins mess got to his head and he thought he was untouchable. Maybe it was Savages fault that he said "Either he goes or I go" What is Collins doing now to help an NFL team win? Besides, isnt he in marketing? One of the problems was that Edwards signed a contract that everyone else didnt have to in regards to Edwards having his own edorsements and not the Browns endorsements. Collins thought the contract was too big for a WR, but its not like you can pay the 3rd pick less then what last years 3rd pick made. "We" didnt make any decision At least I didnt.
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Man, I've never seen anyone more interested in telling the world he was right about something  But I'm a big enough person to admit it,, you had some of this pegged down to the inch... very good job. There is a thread on here about how RAC is willing to stay on if the new coach wants him to. In that interview, RAC says that he would only consider staying if the new HC wanted him to stay (i'm paraphrasing here). He goes on to say that the HC MUST pick the coaches to ensure they are on the same page (again, paraphrasing). I kinda took that as a bit of a slam of Savage forcing Chud and some of the other guys down RACs throat... So, if I"m taking that correctly, I think that RAC and Savage were NOT as tied at the hip as you may have thought. Another thing,, look at how Lerner treated both guys on thier way out the door.. Savage got the boot over the phone.... RAC got the sit down and was told he'd be welcomed back if things were right. I'd say that Lerner is laying the majority of the problem at Savages feet.. JMO however. But Kudos to you on the other stuff..... wow,, that's one helluva prediction you made. 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Man, I've never seen anyone more interested in telling the world he was right about something Maybe because he's wrong about so many things 
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Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile...  nordawg
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
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LOL You and Nor are so mean.... Down boys
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
Go away Mac...the archives only go back 3 years...there are people on here that have recall...I can't help it if you don't.
Have a great New Year.
Peen...nope, you know I'm not going away... 
Peen, I questioned how you could have Savage pegged to the extent you say you were on Collins side of the great Savage/Collins fiasco that occurred at the end of Dec 2005, just one year after Savage was hired.
Peen, then you provided evidence to back your claim (Re: When Romeo gets the boot...what kind of coach? [Re: SaintDawg] #74806 - 12/29/06 06:19 AM)...
...and I pointed out that your evidence was not after the Collins/Savage situation but a year later, just after the team ended their 4-12, 2006 season.
Peen, what ever you want to claim...
...BUT, anyone that says they sided with Collins instead of Savage, after Savage had only been with the Browns for one year, I question your judgement. I guess you were disappointed when Romeo went to bat for Savage and Lerner fired Collins...right?
Peen...and one last thing...what did you have to say about Savage and Crennel after the team went 10-6 in 2007?
Were you calling for Lerner to fire Savage and bring Collins back just a year ago?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I hope the fans don't have influence in FO decisions. Please god no.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Was Lerner really going to fire Savage? Or, was Collins going to fire Savage? I thought it was Collins doing the firing.
We were given the option of Collins or Savage. That's a false choice. Now, we understand that the choice was between Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. It would have been nice if Savage developed the full set of skills he needed to be a good GM. Instead, he focused only on scouting.
Looking back at that time I would still take Savage and his scouting ability over Collins and his marketing ability. (Heck, Collins isn't even in football right now). On top of that, I don't know if we would have been able to hire any qualified GM candidate if Collins fired Savage after less than a year. The organization would have looked like dysfunctional fools. (We look like dysfunctional fools now, but for a couple years, we seemed to be heading in the right direction with Savage).
So in the end, we took the lesser of two evils, Savage's faults aside... Peen, you were right on that point, but do you discount the fact that the ugly nature of firing Savage would have set the team even further back? As the saying goes, "one in the hand is worth two in the bush;" we knew that Savage had the skill to identify talent and find football pieces. We also knew he was limited in some management skills. But, we were betting on the ability of Savage to develop the full set of GM skills (or find a suitable partner to handle it) over the ability of Collins to find a new GM.
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..BUT, anyone that says they sided with Collins instead of Savage, after Savage had only been with the Browns for one year, I question your judgement. I guess you were disappointed when Romeo went to bat for Savage and Lerner fired Collins...right?
Mac....it is all rehash...It was never about keeping Collins....it was the manner in which Phil played his cards in that situation.
And no....I don't complain when things go well even if I don't like the way someone operates.
If you think back, I never had much to say about Couch when he had one of his good games..even said he played a good game.
Anyway....have a good New Year.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I thought this was an interested thought and an interesting debate to bring back up in light of what's happened. My feelings are pretty well represented here. I wanted to keep Savage. I didn't like all the changes Collin's was responsible for, including changing Dawg Talk (if I remember correctly - he was the guy who made that decision). I did have reservations when it came to Savage's intense focus on scouting, while laxing in other areas needing performed by a good GM. I was willing to overlook that. I also agree that 'we' the fans should not be involved in any decision making by ownership. I will say that I believe 'we' played a huge role in affecting the outcome of this situation. The way the fans reacted definitely swayed Lerner in this decision. I also didn't know this was going to turn, in part, to a "she said, she said thang" (Mac & Peen) I crack me up. Anyway - good call back then Peen.
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Quote:
I didn't like all the changes Collin's was responsible for, including changing Dawg Talk (if I remember correctly - he was the guy who made that decision).
I thought that had something to do with the internet blowup of the reaction to the site hacker that said the Browns were getting some WR freeagent. I forget which WR that was. I think he was from Tennesse. Either way, the player was very upset over that ordeal. Even on the Browns main site, it said they were getting the guy the day free agency started.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Looking Back - Savage vs. John
Collins - Did we make a mistake?
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