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Oh, no problem. Message boards are very hard to get your "exact" message across. Unless you write five page posts!  I just feel our team is in such disaray that I prefer getting a HC with some experience and known for his dicipline as the right path to follow considering our options.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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No, you try again until you get it right. Just because the system failed 3 times don't mean the system is wrong. Maybe the right people are not in the right positions to make the system work. It is not so white and black as "we did this 3 times to no avail".
This is truth. 
The way its structured now, EM and Kok are joined at the hip, handcuffed etc. If one fails, we loose both guys. And brining Pioli aboard wasn't what was being reported...an auotmatic hiring of Kirk or Spags.
OF course Pioli doesn't have exprience, but Browns fans, neither did Dimitroff.  How is Atlanta looking?
I applaud Randy for the passion towards winning, its obvious the guy is trying his best here. But the reasoning is whacked, it would be like."well we ran the ball twice, we only got 1 yard, lets never run the ball again".
You can't structure your team like NE, who has an amazing football czar, and expect the same results.
There is a reason most teams go the VP/GM/HC way...and win super bowls with it! Why?
Its never as easy as just "hiring an expreinced HC" like so many are beleiving. It's not that easy in the NFL. You can't just bring in a HC, who you think will magically fix all the problems, and give him a puppet GM who does as he says. That is unless you've have a serious stud coach.
If it works, Randy is a hero and looks like a genius of course.
That is yet to be determined, EM has proven very little. If EM is not just good, but great, we are totally screwed again, since now all are eggs is in his basket, not a GM's like Pioli, who could mantain the teams steps foward and get another HC.
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You mean the hiring in Atlanta that Accorsie advised on....the same as he has been advising Lerner about? Pioli wanted full control. Lerner, on the advice of Accorsi, refused and went another direction. I'm still looking for anything other than your inference (gee, that's surprising) that Coke, or any other GM would be a "puppet". In fact, all I've seen reported and heard was that Lerner wants a GM and HC that will work well together. Where did you hear this about a "puppet"?
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Where did you hear this about a "puppet"?
Good question as all I have read says that Lerner wants the HC and GM to basically be on equal footing with neither answering to the other but working together as closely as possible.
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Yeah the two will run it "together" so niether guy is techinicaly in charge. Right, that will be like "50/50 marriage", one is always the boss. Now lets look at what Randys said as to clue us in on which guy that might be.
He's said a strong HC is more important, he hired EM before Kok, and finally let Pioli, his previous #1 guy walk because of EM.
EM is the man now, there is no such thing as a 50/50 deal, "two can't walk together unless one is the leader". Does EM have full control? Nope just like most GM's dont have full control. I realize that nobody will hear anything until they sober up from the koolaid. This can work, if Mangini lives up to the Shannan's and Holmgrens, and Bellichicks of the NFL world.
It wasn't the system, it was the people, scores of super bow championship teams have proven it, as have the last 3 super bowl winners.
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How is Atlanta looking?
Like they are sitting at home watching the rest of the playoffs, just like the Browns
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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All we did is swap the power control, now the HC is above the GM, other than that...its the same power thats be given out.
And the guys are friends....which is a good thing.
I know, if this doesnt work, lets have the OC, DC, HC, GM, Scouts, Assiantant HC all equally run the team and they can all report to Randy. But whatever you do Randy, don't hire a strong personnel person/vice president.
One guy can't have too much control, LOL, even thats what's going on in NE, the franchise Randy is trying to duplicate.
In the end, Randy is still peeing into the wind on this one, pray he hit a tree this time.
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Yeah the two will run it "together" so niether guy is techinicaly in charge. Right, that will be like "50/50 marriage", one is always the boss.
I asked my wife, and she said that's not true. 
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EM is the man now, there is no such thing as a 50/50 deal, "two can't walk together unless one is the leader". Does EM have full control?
Ultimately, where it matters to me, is who has final say in draft picks, free agency signings and trades... They can walk hand in hand, sing Kumbaya, and eat Jello pudding together all day for all I care, but in the end, one of them has to have the responsibility of pulling the trigger.. and I believe that is going to be Mangini..
yebat' Putin
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Again, where have you heard that EM has final say in anything? Lerner has NEVER stated that. All he hast stated is that the GM and the HC wil report directly to him. The rest is invention and supposition on your part. Did you really want Pioli that bad that you have to invent a situation that you have no idea about?
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Again, where have you heard that EM has final say in anything? Lerner has NEVER stated that. All he hast stated is that the GM and the HC wil report directly to him. The rest is invention and supposition on your part. Did you really want Pioli that bad that you have to invent a situation that you have no idea about?
I agree Coach. And if they want to "speculate". Here's another and I believe MORE logical theory..............
Each man is accountable for "his set of responsabilities".
Both men report to Lerner and in turn, each man is held accountable for "their decisions at their respective positions".
Which is the OPPOSITE of what we had before! However it will be structured ( which NOBODY here knows ), they each will have duties. And as such, must answer to the man who signs the checks for "their job performance".
Which IMO, would mean each man will be judged seperately based on their performance. Which would be the OPPOSITE of "being joined at the hip".
That's just as good of a "theory" as any. Which is ALL these posts are.................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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As much as every thinks we really are gonna do something so different, we really didn't. We still dont have an exec in the FO, we once again went after a NE tree HC, and a Ravens personnel person.
This time the HC is the man rather than the GM, and the hope is that they can wrok well together, TOGETHER.....
They are joined at the hip just like RAC/Phil, if one fails, both will go, and we start over.
Which is why this team has sucked since 99, no top end leadership to continually build the team, even as HC's come and go. Had we got a FO, a real FO, if EM doesnt work out or Kok doesnt work, we have people in place to keep the franchise going.
For the upteenth time, it was not how we did it in 2004, it was who.
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Didn't really read much of the posts...once you miss and they get this numerous its tough to read them all.
But I saw the interview and I was not impressed at all by Pioli. Either he's far from the Genius all are labeling him... or he needs some public speaking classes. First impression...was not too impressive. We'll see what he can build without Belicheck.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Still waiting on where you got this information. You repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. Where did you see or hear that Gini is going to be in charge?
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I agree Coach. Speculative ramblings do not in any way present facts. Just more theories....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Still waiting on where you got this information. You repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. Where did you see or hear that Gini is going to be in charge?
Not for nothing and this certainly isn't an official word, but Willie McG eluded to that in his interview yesterday on the NFL network.. He DID NOT come right out and say it, but he did elude to it.
As far as any written confirmation on what's what, the only thing I've heard on the subject is that both Mangini and the New GM will both report to Lerner..
Beyond that, it's all speculation and opinion.... nothing more
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Why all the brilliant MEDIA have deemed it so  NFL Network has used the term "Czar" on several occasions. Cause after all they were all brilliant over there and wanted us to put together "THEIR" dream team (from all their fantasy league experience) of Pioli and Shanahan. Why we were dunces for taking the HC first. Of course I haven't heard a word of that with Denver hiring their coach first.
Czar??? or just in charge with the football end. As in picking his own staff. Writing the shopping list and shopping? There is no doubt he will be doing that with the input of his asst. coaches as well as our new GM (Kokinis to be ) as they make up the list, shop and decide who to bring to the Cashier - Keenan.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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You mean the hiring in Atlanta that Accorsie advised on....the same as he has been advising Lerner about? Pioli wanted full control. Lerner, on the advice of Accorsi, refused and went another direction. I'm still looking for anything other than your inference (gee, that's surprising) that Coke, or any other GM would be a "puppet". In fact, all I've seen reported and heard was that Lerner wants a GM and HC that will work well together. Where did you hear this about a "puppet"?
Pioli was reported to want full control, but he doesn't have that in KC so it is likely that those reports were false. Pioli has to answer to Clark Hunt. Pioli has to work with Denny Thum who is currently the interm pres of player personnel. And Pioli has made it clear through his presser that the HC is the leader, and will be "the guy in the spot light". Those reports were wrong.
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Or it's likely Pioli adjusted his requests..thats entirely possible..and what you haven't considered is that he more than likely wasn't going to hire Mangini..or want to work with him.
And EM is the coach that Lerner wanted.
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He may have very well reconsidered his demands, but I find it unlikely at this point. I was just pointing out that as much as coach is getting on the one guy for speculating, he is speculating himself. I do agree that the big hang up between Pioli and Lerner does come down to Mangini.
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"Pioli has to work with Denny Thum who is currently the interm pres of player personnel. And Pioli has made it clear through his presser that the HC is the leader, and will be "the guy in the spot light". Those reports were wrong."
Or he learned from our interview that it just wasn't going to happen. Possibly our interview was his wake up call. That if he wanted all that...he has to get out of the thumb of Belicheck and prove himself in more capacities then were made available to him in NE. For him to become a Parcell type Czar...he's going to have to bulk up his resume.
JMHO - we don't really know what went on.
Did Pioli take the attitude that he had the job already and didn't have to convince Randy?
Did Randy have his mind pretty much Set on Mangini and Kokinis after the Mangini interview? Making the Pioli interview rather awkward?
We Don't know.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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My point is simple..and I think it's very valid..I don't know the interview between RL and SP..but once Mangini's name was brought in..it put a damper on the stuff..now the other thing is that Lerner didn't want to give anyone full power..he wanted total communication between GM and coach..with coach having more impact than Rac had..
I won't speculate what went through SP's mind..but I can almost say for certain he wanted no part of working with EM.
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There is a difference between speculating and drawing conclusions that no one has reported and basing your opinion on what has been reported.
I believe it wasn't so much Mangini as it was that Pioli, by al reports even now, is looking at first time HCs. Lerner wanted an experiencd HC because he had just had a bad situation where too many involved were first timeers (GM, HC, OC, DC). I think that is what was the sticking point, not necessarily that Mangini was the definate choice at the time he talked to Pioli.....top choice yes, only choice, no.
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I meant to tell you CF,,, good luck with Pioli,,, Hope it turns your franchise around for ya.....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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There is a difference between speculating and drawing conclusions that no one has reported and basing your opinion on what has been reported.
So whats been reported on Pioli had been wrong every single time. First it was outrageous finacial expectations, then it was because he really didnt want to leave NE, then it was full control that he didn't in KC.
He didnt take the job because he didnt want to work under or with EM, pretty simple, and Randy was gonna get EM one way or the other.
Every step of the way, the media has been wrong on Pioli.
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I do agree that the big hang up between Pioli and Lerner does come down to Mangini.
If the above statement is true, it shows that Pioli's focus was on his agenda and not on doing what was best for the Cleveland Browns, therefore it was best that Pioli move on.
The Browns fans don't give a damn about a GM grudge against headcoaching candidates. The focus in Cleveland is finding people who can lead this franchise to the playoffs and a shot at a Super Bowl.
I wish Pioli and the Chiefs the best...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Which is why this team has sucked since 99, no top end leadership to continually build the team
We sucked since 99 Z because we have not had enough talent on the field.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Which is why this team has sucked since 99, no top end leadership to continually build the team
We sucked since 99 Z because we have not had enough talent on the field.
You don't think those go hand-in-hand?
We're... we're good?
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You don't think those go hand-in-hand?
No,,, All the best leadership in the world isn't going to take a pigs ear and turn it into a silk purse.....
But,, less that great coaching can look brilliant if the talent is there....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You don't think those go hand-in-hand?
No,,, All the best leadership in the world isn't going to take a pigs ear and turn it into a silk purse.....
But,, less that great coaching can look brilliant if the talent is there....
The way he said it made me think he was talking about leadership from the front office which has a direct impact on the talent level. I know talent level itself is most important but the front office is what's responsible for putting it there... unless I'm completely misreading what he said.
We're... we're good?
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Add to that, Da man, that we could have incredibly talented players here, but that their talent is suited for the schemes and philosophy that was in place. That makes a huge difference, as well.
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To put it simply..it's not leadership in the FO that accounts for the lack of talent..it's brains..
We've had cocky people in place and they were horrible in knowing how to evaluate talent..that has nothing to do with leadership.
The other things are communication and a willingness to work with others..that includes leadership...
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You're taking leadership to mean the skill itself and I'm taking leadership to mean the actual people in the front office. Either way, I think we agree on the basic premise, we're just saying the same thing different ways.
We're... we're good?
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We sucked since 99 Z because we have not had enough talent on the field.
Genius, and why is that? 
Get top end NFL exec, like Pioli, who could be with your team for 15 years, that kinda stuff doesnt happen. He gets the HC, if that guy doesnt work out, you get another one and keep going somewhat foward.
Or you can clean house everytime the HC doesnt work and suck for a decade and change.
Another point, I sure hope this works out with Magini, because based of what logic ive read.
1. A college coach won't work, tried that once, failed.
2. A DC or OC thats a rook HC won't work, tried that, didnt work.
3. Hiring a GM/Pres won't work, again it failed, so it has to be the system.
Hope to God Mangini works out , or you scratch of "exprienced HC" from the list too, looks like we will be looking at former Areana HC's that have some tie to NE.
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Which is why this team has sucked since 99, no top end leadership to continually build the team
We sucked since 99 Z because we have not had enough talent on the field.
And we have not had enough talent on the field due to poor leadership decisions, constantly changing coaches and schemes, no plan to build a solid team, etc... the two are definitely related..
yebat' Putin
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No I'm not...the point was that we have lacked talent since 99..well who's supplied the sucky brand of players?
Clark
Botch
Opie
All three have had ample opportunity to take advantage of the position they were in as GM..and they didn't because each thought too highly of what he thought he was able to do..and none were totally ready to handle the task.
Each in some way thought they were being leaders but they weren't , nor should they have been..
In the last instance Opie became leader when he assumed more responsibility for himself and didn't allow Rac to make decisions he should have..
Sitting in on meetings trying to dictate who plays should never ever have happened..not drafting players for Rac's scheme should never ever have happened..but it showed what he thought of the man who actually wanted to work with him and had his back ..
Leadership means you are able to articulat visions, embody values and create environments for the things that can be accomplished. The ability to affect human behavior so as to accomplish a mission. Influencing a group of people to move towards its goal setting or goal achievement.
None of that has happened..but that is not why we haven't aquired a lot of talent..its the geniuses we've had that didn't have a clue how to evaluate talent.
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How do you know that Pioli will be able to do the job that he's never done before? There is no guarantee that Pioli can do it, he's a rookie no matter how much he did with N.E. He never had the final decision on things and now he will. That's not to say he won't do the job, but to proclaim the he will be great is no guarantee.....just as there's no guarantee that we are doomed to failure and that Coke, or whoever else is named GM, will be terrible.
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The way he said it made me think he was talking about leadership from the front office which has a direct impact on the talent level. I know talent level itself is most important but the front office is what's responsible for putting it there... unless I'm completely misreading what he said.
I'm not sure if you are or not to be honest...
But this is what I know. Look at the most successful teams just this year. What's the common thread that runs through all of them?
They are, from the top of the organization to the bottom, all focused on one thing.. Winning. They are all operating without personal agendas, without the personal arogant attitude.
They all get there and pull in the same direction all day long.
For better or worse, Right or wrong.. I think that Randy Lerner has finally figured out that without that compatibility, without that commitment from the top down, there is no chance to be a winner.
I guess he probably already knew that, he's not a dumb guy, but I think that knowing it and working towards it are two different things.
For the first time, he actually seems to have personally taken the bull by the horns and making things happen.
Four years ago, he relied on everyone.. he got a ton of advice and made decisions not based on his own thinking, but on that advice (JMO,, remember it's JMO)
He's still listening to advisors I hope, but I think the difference this time is that he has a mind set of his own and he knows what he wants. He's merely taking advice on those people that may fit that mind set.
After 4 years of watching, learning and seeing first hand what doesn't work, it appears that he has a picture of the organization in his minds eye. And he seems pointed in that direction.
Again, I don't know if in the end it will prove worthy... but at least he seems committed to it.
He's apparently decided that he needed an experienced coach. Obviously, he wanted someone on the younger side. He must have wanted someone from a winning program and one that ran a winning program. (mangini, 2 out of 3 seasons winning probably qualified to lerner, as it should)
It appears he valued that ON FIELD, GAME DAY leadership over the guy that sits in the office. And I can accept that.
So, here we are, Randy has decided that he's got his coach and now he's trying to find the other piece of the puzzle. Someone that, despite the title GM, is really a Personnel guy... someone that sits down with the coach, asks him what he wants and then goes out and finds it via the many methods available to him.
To me, that's as good a method as any other. And let me add, any system will work, as long as you have the right people running it and they are running in the same direction.
That is what I think Randy Lerner is attempting to do... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think you hit it pretty well. I also think that it isn't as much as Gini will say "I want Joe Smith" as it is he will tell the GM what type of player he wants and the GM will find the type of player based on the scouting reports. Gee, using the system like it should be used. What a concept.
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Genius, and why is that?
*looking around the room* no Genius in here, just me, your typical dumb old redneck. But if I can figure it out then anybody with a pulse and brain waves can figure it out.
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Get top end NFL exec, like Pioli,
Now this dumb old redneck has another question to ask you. Where is the proof that Pioli will be a top NFL GM? Where is the PROOF that he will be better than whoever we hire as GM? I can save you the trouble of answering and tell you there is NO proof. The plain and simple answer is that none of us (especially those of us who do not work in a NFL front office) will know the answer till years down the road.
I se a ton of people on this board praising, or bashing us for our moves, while the plain old simple truth is that not a single one of us knows just how this whole thing is going to work out. Only time will tell.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pioli to join Chiefs
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