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To me, that's as good a method as any other. And let me add, any system will work, as long as you have the right people running it and they are running in the same direction.
That is what I think Randy Lerner is attempting to do... 
I think you're pretty much spot on with most of what you said. I think Randy is attempting to get people to work on the same page, but he also seems hesitant to try anything similar to what failed before, which is why he insisted on building around an experienced NFL coach.
To that, I say exactly what you said above... any system will work so long as you get the right people for it. To me, it's not so much trying the next thing to see if that works (not college HC, rookie HC), it's about getting the right people in place, regardless of where they came from. I just hope that Mangini and Kokinis are the "right people" and not just the best people that fit into the mold of the next best thing we haven't tried yet.
We're... we're good?
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I think thats about the best post you ever made..someone told you to say that 
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I also think that it isn't as much as Gini will say "I want Joe Smith" as it is he will tell the GM what type of player he wants and the GM will find the type of player based on the scouting reports.
Exactly,, if the personnel guy is smart and on the same page, he'll get the request for a particular type of player and then go out and find them for the coach to review... Then they'll pick one and move to the next position.
Sounds like a plan to me.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think thats about the best post you ever made..someone told you to say that
Shh,., don't tell anyone.. I like being known as a dummy... that way I can sneak up on people 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I se a ton of people on this board praising, or bashing us for our moves, while the plain old simple truth is that not a single one of us knows just how this whole thing is going to work out. Only time will tell.
I am praising a new direction. From recent history, I am praising this as the most logical approach to acieve success. Other than that, there are no gaurantees.
But first time NFL HC's and SB's have came VERY rarely here lately. So I like the formula.
Mangini is a dicipline guy. We need that. So there are no gaurantees. But I certainly see valid reasons for optimism.
And I would NOT have felt that way had we hired another rookie HC. So I'm more on the offensive against unreasonable criticism. Moreso than feel anything is gaurunteed.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I'm just sitting back with both ears and eyes wide open soaking in as much info, from as many sources as I can.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Well, just remember that I'm just an old redneck too.  So if anything I post you consider a "source of information". You sure use the word "source" quite loosly. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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No way do I want Joe Smith...  
yebat' Putin
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OK, then I have the LB we need....but we have to wait at least 2 years for him to declare for the draft. 6'6" 247, runs the 40 in 4.6. Of course, it's a package deal that his LB coach in college gets a coaching job, too. 
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Of course, it's a package deal that his LB coach in college gets a coaching job, too.
That could be the deal breaker!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Coach, I wasnt trying to say that Pioli wil be better or worse than Kok, neither are proven. The piont I was trying to make was how the orgainization needs to be built.
IMO...Whether its Pioli or Kok, whoever the Randy and those advising him think is best suited for the position, hire him. Let him get the HC, but also give him control over the HC, let him call shots.
I realize that fans are gunshy about giving someone control, but someone in the organization has to be in charge, and someone always will be.
Let the GM/Pres hire his HC, if the GM has power to hire his guy, then chances are they will work together well. Phil was not given that choice, he was forced to work with RAC and gang, not that Phil wasnt at fault too, he was.
My reasoning behind wanting a strong FO is again, long term sucess and that word that gets thrown around all the time: Continuity!
If you hire a VP/GM, and his first HC choice doesnt work, he can hire another guy, but keep the team going foward. And again, he can get another guy that he can work with. If you hire a qaulity guy, your chances are good that will build a organization that can withstand coaching changes.
The way we currently structured, the HC is tied to the GM, if one fails, then our entire organization is stripped from head to toe.
If we had real leadership from a football person in the FO, who can get the right people around him, and hire his HC, it wil translate in to winning. As Daman said, look at the winning teams in the NFL right now? How are they structured? You look at Baltimore and Pittsburg, both lost their HC's and never missed a beat, their leadership found guys who fit well, and that the FO could work with well.
This isn't about Mangini either, he may well be a great HC, hes done well with choosing his DC. But what if he doesnt? Then we are back to nothing, because Kok will follow him out the door.
But had we done what the Hunts did, bring in a VP/GM, whether that be Kok, Pioli..etc. That, IMO, is how this team is really gonna turn around for good and be consistent and have real continutity.
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IMO...Whether its Pioli or Kok, whoever the Randy and those advising him think is best suited for the position, hire him. Let him get the HC, but also give him control over the HC, let him call shots.
We just tried that Z,,, and it sucked... time for something a little different and Randy seems to have found his path...
I have NO IDEA if it will work, but at least he's not standing still....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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IMO...Whether its Pioli or Kok, whoever the Randy and those advising him think is best suited for the position, hire him. Let him get the HC, but also give him control over the HC, let him call shots.
Why? It was pretty well known that Mangini and Coke wanted to work together. So isn't it really simply a case of semantics as to which one was hired first?
And if Mangini gave him multiple names that he wished to work with that are qualified, again, isn't your point more about semantics than anything else?
Secondly, look where Coke is right now? We can't hire Coke until he's "out of the playoffs". Which could "possibly" mean early February. If Lerner has plans to hire the tandum, would Mangini still have been on the market for almost a MONTH AFTER Lerner signed Mangini?
You see, to "wait on Coke's hire" before signing Mangini, would have meant leaving Mangini on the open market for quite a while. Risky business IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Yet there are other teams that are successful doing it the other way. The latest and greatest dynasty, NE, did it the opposite way. The Cowboys, during their run, did it the other way. Pittsburgh did it that way when Cowher was there (GM didn't have final say).
Denver just did the same thing. There were other teams interested in Gini....we know that now. The research, and advice from Accorsi, stated that the HC was key (along with working collectively with the GM). So that's why it was handled that way. With the situation as it was, we need the HC in place to start scouting the type of players needed. This allows the scouting dept to start doing so. The timing was much more vital doing it this way.
Also, IMO, Lerner's way ties the GM and HC together, but in a positive way. Each is accountable for their actions so they will work together. Having both report to him keeps another Savage situation from happening and does not stop either from being held accountable for their actions/inactions. I find it a good thing that neither reports to the other. God forbig another Savage situation happens. This way, both are on the same page and working for the same thing and share the responsibility, credit, blame.
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NO WE DIDN'T!
When was Phil aloud to get his HC?????
Phil was forced to take the job with RAC or stay in Bmore. If it wasnt for a few stupid comments and ego stroking behavior, Phil prolly is getting his guy in here now. I'm not defending Phil whatsoever, but we havent tried that.
Based on your reasoning, if EM doesn't, never hire another HC with exprience, and never let him have any say.
It wasn't the system it was the PEOPLE, if you don't beleive me, look at Pitt and Bmore, how the heck are they built?
Your right Randy is trying really hard.....that may or may not be relevant if he doesnt know what he is doing.
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Of course, it's a package deal that his LB coach in college gets a coaching job, too.
That could be the deal breaker!
Deal breaker? Do you know how many times that coach has had to hang up on Randy because he is vetting so much?
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NO WE DIDN'T!
When was Phil aloud to get his HC?????
Phil was forced to take the job with RAC or stay in Bmore
Oh for goodness sakes,, do we have to go over this AGAIN... Gees... YOU ARE NOT CORRECT!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/k
Seems that Pioli has changed a lot in the short period of time between interviewing for the Browns job and today.
Word is, Pioli might be looking to keep Herm Edwards as his HC in KC... web page
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I didn't see that coming....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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speculation is that herm edwards' contract ends in 2010, when cowher would consider coming back to coaching and cowher has a history with KC as a coordinator. edwards could be a lame duck coach for a year. anyways, didn't see this posted but gives insight as to why pioli isn't our gm. Quote:
Why did Scott Pioli wind up the general manager of the Kansas City Chiefs instead of the Browns?
It's not because of outrageous financial demands. Browns owner Randy Lerner called those reports false, and they were. Pioli never got to the point of making demands.
But Pioli was pointed with Lerner about what he thought needed to be done with the Browns.
Not much has leaked about Pioli's discussions with Lerner, mainly because Pioli is strongly private and ''underground,'' especially as it relates to the media. But enough has gotten out to paint a picture of what happened.
Pioli told Lerner that there was not a lot of talent on the Browns, that very few of the defensive players could have started with the New England Patriots and that a massive amount of work needed to be done to rebuild not just the team but also the way the team was constructed.
From scouting to the draft to almost every department in the building, Pioli wanted to rebuild the culture of the Browns, a culture that has been affected by the losing.
That would have required a commitment from Lerner to Pioli of many years.
Lerner believes that the team is closer to the one that sent six players to the Pro Bowl in 2007 than the one that fell off in 2008. He believes that there is talent, and that the system in place to acquire the talent is sound.
Which means he likes former GM Phil Savage's system; he just didn't appreciate Savage's approach in some ways.
So Lerner was not ready to junk everything.
His vision is that the team is close to being good, and adjusting the people making the decisions would bring the talent to the fore.
Clearly, that did not match Pioli's vision.
The GM search continues, with George Kokinis of the Baltimore Ravens the favorite.
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/37772974.html
dunno who to agree with yet. what i would point to though, is that lerner wants a new england team so badly yet when their top FO person comes to town and tells him what he doesn't want to hear, he's willing to ignore it for some coach who tells him what he wants to hear. not to say pioli is a more important hire than mangini but you'd think pioli knows what he's talking about and you'd think lerner at least acknowledges that too.
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All Pro
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Quote:
Pioli told Lerner that there was not a lot of talent on the Browns, that very few of the defensive players could have started with the New England Patriots and that a massive amount of work needed to be done to rebuild not just the team but also the way the team was constructed.
From scouting to the draft to almost every department in the building, Pioli wanted to rebuild the culture of the Browns, a culture that has been affected by the losing.
Wow, if that is really how it went down then no wonder he isn't the GM. I know we were bad but geesh.
Can't say I blame Randy if this is true.
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speculation is that herm edwards' contract ends in 2010, when cowher would consider coming back to coaching and cowher has a history with KC as a coordinator. edwards could be a lame duck coach for a year.
anyways, didn't see this posted but gives insight as to why pioli isn't our gm.
Quote:
Why did Scott Pioli wind up the general manager of the Kansas City Chiefs instead of the Browns?
It's not because of outrageous financial demands. Browns owner Randy Lerner called those reports false, and they were. Pioli never got to the point of making demands.
But Pioli was pointed with Lerner about what he thought needed to be done with the Browns.
Not much has leaked about Pioli's discussions with Lerner, mainly because Pioli is strongly private and ''underground,'' especially as it relates to the media. But enough has gotten out to paint a picture of what happened.
Pioli told Lerner that there was not a lot of talent on the Browns, that very few of the defensive players could have started with the New England Patriots and that a massive amount of work needed to be done to rebuild not just the team but also the way the team was constructed.
From scouting to the draft to almost every department in the building, Pioli wanted to rebuild the culture of the Browns, a culture that has been affected by the losing.
That would have required a commitment from Lerner to Pioli of many years.
Lerner believes that the team is closer to the one that sent six players to the Pro Bowl in 2007 than the one that fell off in 2008. He believes that there is talent, and that the system in place to acquire the talent is sound.
Which means he likes former GM Phil Savage's system; he just didn't appreciate Savage's approach in some ways.
So Lerner was not ready to junk everything.
His vision is that the team is close to being good, and adjusting the people making the decisions would bring the talent to the fore.
Clearly, that did not match Pioli's vision.
The GM search continues, with George Kokinis of the Baltimore Ravens the favorite.
http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/37772974.html
dunno who to agree with yet. what i would point to though, is that lerner wants a new england team so badly yet when their top FO person comes to town and tells him what he doesn't want to hear, he's willing to ignore it for some coach who tells him what he wants to hear. not to say pioli is a more important hire than mangini but you'd think pioli knows what he's talking about and you'd think lerner at least acknowledges that too.
If the article is correct, then I would side with Lerner; no way am I going to buy in to a total overhaul of the roster. There is no way RL could sell that to the fan-base. We are going to take 2-3 years to overhaul everything, so please be patient. After the 2-3 yr. period, we should BEGIN to be competitive???
And as with ALL of the options, what if if doesn't pan out? Pioli fires the coach because it was clearly his fault for not coaching the players properly and then what? He gets his "pass" and hires another coach. What if that coach doesn't work out? How many years into the overhaul are we then?
I'd rather go the Mangini route. Try to win now, with a decent percentage of the inherited roster and a draft and smart-FA period. Then build on top of that and get better. If it doesn't work out, there will be no mulligan for a GM to pull.
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I was never big on Pioli, but he might be right. We don't know how this will shake out 2-3 years from now and we might be starting over then. Not saying I agree with Pioli, but this could be Lerners biggest problem finding a GM. He wants a yes man, not someone with a vision. Mangini told him he could win with this roster and a few upgrades and attitude adjustments and that is what Randy wanted to hear.
If you look at our Defense, there is one guy that would start for most NFL teams and that is Rodgers. Everyone else is just average, some make plays but few playmakers. On offense we have a one dimensional TE who we have to supplement with an extra TE. Jamal is slow, The right side of our line is a joke, we have a #1 receiver who can't be counted on to catch the ball.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I don't know if the following is true or accurate but if it is, I have little doubt why Randy turned away from Pioli Quote:
Pioli told Lerner that there was not a lot of talent on the Browns, that very few of the defensive players could have started with the New England Patriots and that a massive amount of work needed to be done to rebuild not just the team but also the way the team was constructed.
From scouting to the draft to almost every department in the building, Pioli wanted to rebuild the culture of the Browns, a culture that has been affected by the losing.
There are holes in the D.. there are holes in the O.. But they are HOLES.... Holes can be filled and the right coach can make the rest of the team responsible and accountable.
Sounds to me as if Pioli wanted years and years to turn things around and randy was't buying it.
In the, Pioli may have proven to be right,,,, time will tell, but frankly, I don't think he was.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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"I was never big on Pioli, but he might be right."
Or he just might not be the genius the sports media has bestowed upon him for the success in NE that was under the guidance of another.
If I am Randy (and I know I'm not) I would expect a very bright GM to be able to give a plan revolving around the talent we currently possess along with the long term plan as natural cycles of NFL rosters occur to build under the vision of a better way.
I'm sure we could have relied on Pioli getting a Brady in the 6th round so that he could eventually trade a good QB like BQ for 2 first round picks.
I'm sure we could have relied on Pioli getting a HC as intelligent as Belicheck to put the entire process on the field. Stripping the cupboard bare and loading up on draft picks. So that we could be in purgatory for not 2-3 seasons but we would be back in another 5 YEAR PLAN. If this is true and then comes the fact that we don't know because both RANDY and PIOLI are not big in the face of media people to have let something slip out. Its all a guessing game there is no Picture to paint cause there aren't really any facts out there.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Eo,, maybe it's just me, but it's almost like he told lerner this in order to make paint the picture that it's going to take years thus guaranteeing him plenty of time to flounder before he hits the combination of talent and coaching to make the team respectable.
Almost as if he was laying out a built in excuse....
I'm not sure if I"m right about that.. but man it sure seems like it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The reality is..KC is the safer place for Pioli than Cleveland..the expectations to become a instant contender are not the same..wonder if that had a factor in it..
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Quote:
Pioli told Lerner that there was not a lot of talent on the Browns, that very few of the defensive players could have started with the New England Patriots and that a massive amount of work needed to be done to rebuild not just the team but also the way the team was constructed.
I guess my question/comment to him would have been: well, this ain't the New England Patriots. How would you plan on building the Cleveland Browns?
I will say that work needs to be done on the whole "culture of losing" thing (just look at so many of our fans and their doomsday attitudes). But, to suggest that the entire team and organization is as far away from winning as Pioli seems to suggest? That just doesn't sit right with me.
Yeah, maybe I'm biased, but I have to think that we do have some quality players on both sides of the ball. You can't tell me that there wouldn't be SOME way to utilize a guy like Wimbley in a better way than he's been used these past few years. You can't say that, with an addition at LB and maybe someone on the DL, we can't immediately see improvement. Add in a better scheme (not saying to trash the 3-4 but instead to see it run more aggressively, IMO), and we can see immediate improvement as well.
On offense, we have a lot of weapons. Do we need some upgrades? Yes. But are we truly THAT far away that we need to rebuild? Say what you will about Savage, but he did bring in SOME talent.
IMO, Pioli has a mindset of what an organization should be and how a team should be built (essentially, identical to the Pats). It seems he'd be a better fit somewhere like KC where they have a similar mindset. Here, we have the mindset that we have a number of pieces to be competitive. Fill in the other key pieces (which aren't as numerous as KC's) and we can be right back in the thick of things.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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J/C
Let me see if I've got this straight,some of the replies here have me confused.
The owner,who just fired the guys he hired after giving both a huge raise,says we are talented enough to win.
A well respected FO-type,having been on 3,4 Super Bowl winning teams,says we don't.
Track record alone,and cute little PJ's aside,I gotta go with the FO-type on this one.
Lack of talent has been a prevailing theme since the return,and it hasn't improved that much in 3 years.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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So you're saying we don't have talent on this team?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Pioli told Lerner that there was not a lot of talent on the Browns, that very few of the defensive players could have started with the New England Patriots and that a massive amount of work needed to be done to rebuild not just the team but also the way the team was constructed.
It sounds like Pioli wanted to rebuild..tear things down and build up..now I could care less about NE..BUT in a sense this team is not loaded with talent where it is needed the most..on defense.
I DO NOT feel the team needs a teardown..you can take each off year and get a influx of talent to target the biggest weaknesses if its done right..
From scouting to the draft to almost every department in the building, Pioli wanted to rebuild the culture of the Browns, a culture that has been affected by the losing.
I agree somewhat with the scouting unless there was a divide between the scouts/GM and HC which we know there was....the part that gets me is the GM not drafting specifically for the 34 ..that sets you back bigtime.so now you get a GM and scouts who look for specifc players for the 34 and you go get the best ones..
Lerner believes that the team is closer to the one that sent six players to the Pro Bowl in 2007 than the one that fell off in 2008. He believes that there is talent, and that the system in place to acquire the talent is sound.
Which means he likes former GM Phil Savage's system; he just didn't appreciate Savage's approach in some ways.
Technically the same thing is still going to be done if they're smart enough to do it right..this year if they get the biggest areas fixed...OLB/ILB with a mix of the draft and FA..the D will become instantly better.
Then you move on to other areas of need..RB/CB/WR/OC/OG ..fix those areas and this team gets a huge boost...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
Not to get too off track, but since you're a DB kind of guy, I wanted to see what you thought of Malcolm Jenkins (since so many feel he'll be our 1st rounder).
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
I would have no problem taking Jenkins, provided we get a ILB in FA...and a pass rusher.. Now saying that..and I'll get into more when the draft forum is put up, if the new GM is unable to get a ILB (which I would consider it a failure) then we have to manuver ourselves in the draft to get the best one(s)that fits our scheme.. Also if he does not bring in a taller FA CB...then we should draft one ..Jenkins isn't the only big corner in the draft. In thinking it through, the area of even bigger concern to me is we don't have a pass rusher..  Once I get a solid read of where players are ranked and what we do in FA, it'll become clearer..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/19/09 12:07 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
"Let me see if I've got this straight,some of the replies here have me confused. The owner,who just fired the guys he hired after giving both a huge raise,says we are talented enough to win. A well respected FO-type,having been on 3,4 Super Bowl winning teams,says we don't."
Well you being confused is not that surprising.... 
J/k...lol 
seriously your misconception of what I'm at least trying to convey might be due to communication on my part (or lack of).
What I'm trying to say is finally this team has a foundation of talent. For the first time since 99. Stripping 05 clean with a new regime was recognized as something was needed cause we were void of that talent.
This team has a BE, Pool, Wimbley, DQ, JoeT, EW, BQ, McD, Harrison, Cribbs, DA, KW2, Corey Williams, Rogers, ESteinbach, Shaffer. All here long term (well BE is in his last year). But a young foundation...sure some can be moved around but at value not 4-6th round picks.
From what I read if it is true its not a matter of valuing Pioli's opinion that we are nothing but Garbage and must start new. Which to me, If I'm Randy I'm thinking. that means a firesale of most of the talent and starting back like before without a foundation. Which every regime started before. What I see is the prospect of a Mangini...coming in and bringing at least Continuity with the Defense and providing a staff all on the same page and with experience regarding the 3-4.
What I see is the building of an offensive philosophy of which we had a void here but not a void in talent. Wasn't the negative calling card of the media on our offense is WHO WERE WE? Running team, Passing Team we never established an offensive character to rally around. Well for not CONTINUING with that I say YAY!!!! But I see Mangini bringing Randy a plan to get success with the Foundation we have here...sure making some changes but not WHOLESALE! And build that foundation...not stripping it and start with the Building of the FOUNDATION...AGAIN!!!
If that was what Pioli was selling...sorry wrong place at the wrong time. Thats what we needed in 05...not 09.
JMHO Pioli ain't no god yet. Get back to me after he makes the Chiefs into a Dynasty then I'll consider it. Of course we'll be beating them in the AFC Championship game so it won't hurt too much
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pioli to join Chiefs
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