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Agree; that's a good call. Unfortunately it comes with punishment that doesn't feel "just" enough for the circumstances. Or am I seeing it wrong--the 10 years is a minimum sentence ??
Don't think so. The way I read it 10 years is the max. But, that's just the way I read it.
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Maybe I've missed it, but has the Father shown any remorse? I think 10 years is plenty for this crime...imagine what he must be going through if he gives a flip about the kids.
From the article ... "Aragon, who is jailed on $500,000 bond, cried during a Dec. 29 initial court appearance where a judge told him he faced up to life in prison. Two days later, deputies escorted him to a funeral home to mourn his daughter."
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If that's the law, then it's good enough for me,...I stand down.
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If it's measured in MILES, it's too damn far to make a kid walk ALONE in sub-freezing temperatures with high snow drifts.
Not trying to defend this guy in any way but something I read when this story first came out that is not mentioned in this article is that the kids mom was meeting them half way. The spot the guy got stuck was a short distance from where the mom as supposed to meet them. The kids were only supposed to be walking to that spot,they did and and when they got there the mom was not, so they kept going.
Still a stupid thing to do, but that kind of changes things a bit.
KING
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Still a stupid thing to do, but that kind of changes things a bit.
Not really. In the end, he still left them out in subzero weather, high drifts and blowing snow and ice uncertain of whether they had a ride or a place to go or what... it's still an incredibly stupid and negligent thing to do.
yebat' Putin
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it's still an incredibly stupid and negligent thing to do.
Isnt that what I said?? Ok, maybe not with as much description as you but I did say it was stupid to do. The real story though is different than the rhetoric the news article used. The guy did not leave his kids out there to hike 10 miles.
It was stupid and negligent,no doubt. I bet in his mind at the time though the guy was thinking it was the best thing to do. Rather than have the kds sit there, buried in snow, have them walk the couple hundred yards up the road to where the mom was sitting waiting for them with a warm car. Obviously it was a stupid mistake,poor decision, but hind sight is always 20/20.
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ok king, then I'm going to ask you some questions.. I'm just not in a very forgiving mood at the moment and don't feel like cutting this guy an ounce of slack... Quote:
The guy did not leave his kids out there to hike 10 miles.
He left them out there with uncertainty of what was going to happen.. 10 miles, 2 miles, a couple hundred yards and hopes of a waiting mom.. it's still uncertain. If you had a kid that couldn't swim but you were pretty sure they could stand up in the pool would you send them out swimming alone?
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I bet in his mind at the time though the guy was thinking it was the best thing to do. Rather than have the kds sit there, buried in snow, have them walk the couple hundred yards up the road to where the mom was sitting waiting for them with a warm car.
If it was so dangerous at his car buried in snow, why didn't he go with them?
If he thought it was only a couple hundred yards, why didn't he instruct the kids, "Go up around the corner, if you're mom isn't there, COME RIGHT BACK."?
In fact, if he only thought it was a couple hundred yards, that makes it doubly stupid that he didn't escort them up there.. or send the uncle what's his name with them...
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but hind sight is always 20/20.
It's not hindsight in this case king.. it's forethought. As with many things in life, you take a potential action and you look at the possible outcomes, the good things that can come from it and the bad things.. (it is supposed to be this kind of logical thinking that separates adults from children)... then you assess whether the potential reward is worth the potential risk... The reward was that they get to their mom a little quicker, the risk was that they die.... seems pretty easy to me. And you mention her warm waiting car.. his car was still running, it was just stuck, it was warm.. and based on the fact that he got it out a few minutes later, I seriously doubt that it was "buried in snow" as you put it.
Sorry king, I usually try to look for the extenuating circumstances that make these decision appear not to be so stupid.. but in this case, I see a whole series of possible actions and outcomes and not once, do I see where this guy did anything right to deserve any attempt at an excuse.
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do I see where this guy did anything right to deserve any attempt at an excuse.
I am not real sure why you are trying to convince me how stupid what he did was, I agree that it was a incredibly stupid mistake on his part. I am just trying to understand why he did what he did though. Not making any excuses for the guy, he effed up, he didnt think about something before hand and when he did think about it he made the wrong choice. Unfortunately it cost this girl her life, and it will cost him a good chunk of his.
I am just saying though, you have never though about something, and made a decision on it that turned out to be the wrong decision? Especially when it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. You have never did something that turned out bad, and then thought to yourself later " what the hell was I thinking? I sure as hell have. Maybe not on this large of a scale,but we have all done it.
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I am just saying though, you have never though about something, and made a decision on it that turned out to be the wrong decision? Especially when it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. You have never did something that turned out bad, and then thought to yourself later " what the hell was I thinking? I sure as hell have. Maybe not on this large of a scale,but we have all done it.
Of course.. but not when it came to putting somebody elses life (especially my kids lives) at risk... Personally, it's a wonder I'm still here some of the dumb stuff I've done to myself.. but that's my point, I grew up and learned to make better decisions.
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This goes well beyond a mistake or poor judgement. Given the situation, this was a callous disregard for the children's safety. A mistake is when you add up the wrong column of numbers at work. A bad decision is when you let your kids play video games too much. This is criminal neglect.
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I grew up and learned to make better decisions.
I agree, as you grow up you make better decisions, but no one is bullet proof from making a wrong choice.You can(or someone else can) always look back after wards and say "that was a dumb thing to do". That is what I meant by hindsight is 20/20. Like you said DC, some of the things you did when you were younger could have killed you, or maybe they could have killed someone else. Fortunately they didnt and you learned from those mistakes. I think people always take the high road when it comes to someone else messing up, but people should realize how easy it could be for something tragic to happen to them based on their deisions.
KING
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This goes well beyond a mistake or poor judgement.
No it doesn't. It was a mistake and poor judgment. Adding in the fact that the girl died does make it criminal negligence, but that criminal negligence is based on his mistake and poor judgment. If it went beyond that then it would be murder,not involuntary manslaughter. For it to be anything past that this guy would have had to have the intent to kill or harm these kids.
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I completely disagree. You don't have to intend to harm someone to be neglectful, and neglect goes far beyond a mistake or bad choice. "Oops, silly me, I made a mistake and let the kids freeze to death." Please. 
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Do you think he was willing to walk the 10 miles in those conditions? I'm sure he was smart enough to know there was no way he would make it in that weather.
There is no "mistake" when you send a kid out in the snow and weather to walk 10 freakin miles. He can claim ignorance or whatever, but he knew damn well what could happen to those kids. He just didn't care.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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I
"Oops, silly me, I made a mistake and let the kids freeze to death." Please.
Did I or anyone else say that? No, I am pretty sure I didn't. The guy screwed up, big time.Tragically it cost this girl her life. He will go to jail for it, and he deserves to. The fact is it still was a mistake and poor judgement. That mistake and poor judgment led to neglect. Criminal neglect at that.
KING
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There is no "mistake" when you send a kid out in the snow and weather to walk 10 freakin miles. He can claim ignorance or whatever, but he knew damn well what could happen to those kids. He just didn't care.
Well intent is a major part of criminal charges. If the prosecution can prove what you are saying, that he knew what would happen to those kids, then he is guilty of murder. Otherwise he is guilty of criminal neglect, which leads to involuntary manslaughter since someone died due to his neglect.
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Too me it is common sense, so it should not be that hard to prove. Obviously the prosecution feels differently, so they are charging him with manslaughter which is a total joke IMO.
They mention in the article that the kids "lived a rough life" and "are in a better place now" was there abuse? Because if there was then motive and intent come into play.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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Too me it is common sense,
What is common sense to you or me and how things can be prosecuted are two different things. I just dont think they guy drove the kids out there,dropped them off, and said,I hope they die. His actions led to their deaths, but he did not commit murder.
KING
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Not trying to defend this guy in any way but something I read when this story first came out that is not mentioned in this article is that the kids mom was meeting them half way.
Where did you hear this? I haven't seen that anywhere.
Here is an older story but with a little more detail about the "mistake".
Girl dies on cold walk and father is charged with murder
The father of an 11-year-old girl who died of hypothermia after trying to walk 10 miles in the snow on Christmas Day to see her mother has been charged with second-degree murder.
Last Updated: 11:51PM GMT 30 Dec 2008
Robert Aragon, 55, of Jerome, Idaho, is also accused of felony injury to a child.
Sage Aragon and her 12-year-old brother, Bear, were with their father on Thursday when his truck got stuck in a snow drift on a highway north of Shoshone in southern Idaho, according to the Lincoln County sheriff's office.
Mr Aragon was driving the children, who lived with their father, to visit their mother, JoLeta Jenks, in West Magic.
After the truck got caught in the snow, authorities allege that Mr Aragon allowed the children out to walk to their mother's house while he and another adult stayed behind to free the vehicle.
Miss Jenks said she called Mr Aragon because she was concerned after the family failed to arrive at her home on Thursday. Mr Aragon had driven back to Jerome after letting his children out to walk to her house, Miss Jenks said.
"They didn't even call me, telling me they were walking," she told the Times-News.
Miss Jenks called the police and a Blaine County search and rescue team found the boy at a rest area near the highway shortly before 10 pm on Thursday night.
Adults in the search effort described the snow as knee-deep for them.
The boy was found wearing only long underwear, Blaine County Sheriff Walt Femling said in a news release. Apparently delusional from hypothermia, the child had discarded his jacket, trousers and shoes, the sheriff's office said. He was treated and released at a nearby hospital.
The rest area was about 4.5 miles from where the children had started walking.
At some point the children separated and their mother said her son told her they disagreed about whether to keep going or turn back.
"(Bear) kept on telling her: 'Let's go, Sage, let's go, Sage,"' Miss Jenks said, recalling what her son told her. "She said, 'No, I'm going back."'
The little girl was found about 2.7 miles from where the two set out, barely visible under windblown, drifting snow, when search dogs located her along a local road about 2 am on Friday. She was wearing a brown down coat, black shirt, pink pyjama bottoms and tan snowboots, the sheriff's office statement said.
The girl was pronounced dead at a Ketchum, Idaho hospital. Preliminary autopsy results indicate she died of hypothermia.
Officials say temperatures in the area at the time the girl was missing ranged from minus 20 to minus 3 degrees Celsius.
Mr Aragon made an emotional appearance in court on Monday. He banged his head on the defendant's table as Judge Mark Ingram read the charges against him. After the judge noted that second-degree murder carries a maximum penalty of life in prison, Mr Aragon said "Oh my God" as he banged his head on the table one final time. The judge denied his request to lower his $500,000 bond.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ith-murder.html
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Where did you hear this? I haven't seen that anywhere.
When it first happened it was on the TV news. Maybe that report on the TV news was incorrect since the updated print is not saying anything about that.
I know me using the word "mistake" makes it seem as if I am downplaying what happened. That is not my intent at all but putting the emotion aside what the guy did was a incredibly stupid mistake that was incredibly negligent. If it was intentional then that is a whole different thing, and to me it would mean this guy should fry.
I am just trying to point out to people that if things had taken a different turn for mistakes we have made, we could have things happen like this to us too. Not specifically having a kid die, but in general. If the guy had done this and things had worked out the way I am sure he thought in his mind they would, would this be a story?
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but no one is bullet proof from making a wrong choice.
You are correct, but some choices are just painfully obvious, this is one of them.
Just like, based on a childs maturity there is an age where they can be allowed to stay home alone for a few hours.. is that age 12 or 13 or 14? I don't know.. but I know it's not 4.
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I think people always take the high road when it comes to someone else messing up,
I honestly don't. As I said previously I tend to look at these things from that persons point of view at the time to see what they were thinking.. sometimes I can see where people made somewhat rational decisions and things just went wrong.. this is not one of those cases, there is nothing rational in what he did.. not one single thing.
I'll give you an example. We were having drinks after work late last summer in Wilmington NC, when the car in front of the little place we were in started smoking badly. It was a minivan and the door opened and 3 kids climbed out as the car filled with smoke. I went out to see what was going on, there wasn't an adult in site and the oldest kid was about 13 and the youngest about 5.. within minutes the car was ablaze and we took the kids inside with us and called the fire department. The car was a melted wreck, the windows blew out, the tires exploded and melted, it melted the parking meter beside it.. for anybody who has never seen a car fire, it went from a little smoke to a small inferno in a matter of 5 minutes. A couple minutes later the mother came back screaming and crying.. because when she rounded the corner, she saw the car engulfed in flames, all the doors closed and her kids nowhere to be seen... I'm sure her first thought was that her kids were still in that car. It was a hot day, she had to run around the corner to the ATM so she left the car running so they would have AC.. that's how it all started... in thinking about it, I could have done what she did.. 13 isn't a baby, they are old enough to sit in a car by themselves for a few minutes and watch their younger siblings, this trip just took longer because she hit the afterwork line at the ATM... So I don't judge her for being a moron who deserves to go to jail for endangerment.. maybe leaving them alone isn't THE smartest thing to do, but in my mind, the odds of that car catching on fire or something bad happening are pretty small... she was just unlucky, it was a mistake....
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I agree, it want a big deal to leave a 13 year old in the car to run to the ATM, it was a just a freak accident. BUT if those kids had not gotten out of the car and those kids had been hurt,or god forbid killed. People would be all over her proclaiming what a bad person/mom she is. I think sometimes there is a very fine line between what happens and what could have happened.
KING
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I agree, it want a big deal to leave a 13 year old in the car to run to the ATM, it was a just a freak accident. BUT if those kids had not gotten out of the car and those kids had been hurt,or god forbid killed. People would be all over her proclaiming what a bad person/mom she is. I think sometimes there is a very fine line between what happens and what could have happened.
That's actually a valid point to a degree. (the degree meaning there was a 13 yr. old in the car). But like you said, had the kids not gotten out, I'm sure that lady would've been charged with something.
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I agree completely.... I can only speak for myself and the reason I bring up that example is because there was a very small chance something could go wrong with what that woman did.. with what the dude in Idaho did, the odds of something going wrong are overwhelming...
yebat' Putin
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I agree, it want a big deal to leave a 13 year old in the car to run to the ATM, it was a just a freak accident. BUT if those kids had not gotten out of the car and those kids had been hurt,or god forbid killed. People would be all over her proclaiming what a bad person/mom she is. I think sometimes there is a very fine line between what happens and what could have happened.
KING
Yep, I agree. I'm my mind, this guy just did an incredibly stupid and neglectful thing ... but he also did not intend the results, so I'm a little hesitant to just throw the switch on him for being stupid. A 5 to 10 year prison sentence seems about right, considering this guy probably wants to throw himself on the electric chair anyway.
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I agree completely.... I can only speak for myself and the reason I bring up that example is because there was a very small chance something could go wrong with what that woman did.. with what the dude in Idaho did, the odds of something going wrong are overwhelming...
And I agree too ... which is why I bring up the whole intelligence thing. He basically shovelled poo for a few bucks an hour for a living. He likely didn't have anything more than a basic high school education. So while it's easy for us to say, "We'll that's just obvious" ... it might NOT of been for this guy. I knew a farmer once (who happened to be from rural Idaho *whistle*) ... he would refuse to wear seat belts cause he thought they would cause all kinds of internal organ damage.
Plus it said he was 55 or something ... that's almost around the "I walked to school 10 miles, uphill, both ways in 5 feets of snow" generation. I just get the feeling that the guy didn't get how dangerous it was.
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I can sleep at night thinking the system works if he gets 5-10 years... he didn't intend for it to happen and he certainly won't do it again.. and those are the 2 big things my non-legal mind considers...
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I have no problem with what he's being charged with and the sentence. I just can't stomach someone, for lack of a better word, "excusing" this guy in any way. Animals know better than to treat their young like this.
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I can sleep at night thinking the system works if he gets 5-10 years... he didn't intend for it to happen and he certainly won't do it again.. and those are the 2 big things my non-legal mind considers...
What exactly do you believe he thought was going to happen? Like I stated before, do you think he would have made that trek himself? I'm going to say no since he did not even consider going with them even though there was another adult in the car.
We are not talking about 10 blocks here we are talking about 10 FREAKIN MILES IN BELOW FREEZING TEMPS!! Nobody in the world is stupid enough to think that is ok.
I cannot believe some of you are giving this moron a pass. This guy knew what the consequences could be, he was 55 years old!! I mean come on people.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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I cannot believe some of you are giving this moron a pass.
Come on man, nobody, NOBODY is giving this guy a pass. There is not one person here that has said he should just be free.
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I I just can't stomach someone, for lack of a better word, "excusing" this guy in any way. Animals know better than to treat their young like this.
Really? Who "excused" him? Nobody that I have seen in this thread.
KING
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I cannot believe some of you are giving this moron a pass.
Come on man, nobody, NOBODY is giving this guy a pass. There is not one person here that has said he should just be free.
Ok, maybe not a pass, but saying things like "he didn't intend for it to happen?"
I would love to know what they think he intended to happen? He sure as hell wasn't going to walk it himself, but it is ok for his children to do it? And then to top it all off, once he got his car freed he just turned around and drove home? After driving the 150 miles to get there he couldn't drive 10 more to see if they got there safely?
Yea, he didn't "intend" for anything to happen. Right.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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This is one of the reasons I love this board.. I have been harder on this guy than most throughout the whole thread, refusing to accept any excuses, then I state one time that I don't think he MEANT for the kids to die and all of the sudden I'm the softie.... I love it.
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j/c Kash
I noticed the boys name is "Bear". I wonder if these people are Native American. Not that it really matters, but I would wonder about a different culture having a different though porcess than us. I am not saying that is the case but just throwing something else out there.
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After driving the 150 miles to get there he couldn't drive 10 more to see if they got there safely?
Yahoo Maps lists Jerome Idaho as being just over 30 miles from West Magic Idaho. Not that it matters how far it is, the last 10 is/was the key. I'd post the map, but I don't know how to delete all my addresses out of it.
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all of the sudden I'm the softie
Popping a little blue pill will take care of that. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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This is one of the reasons I love this board.. I have been harder on this guy than most throughout the whole thread, refusing to accept any excuses, then I state one time that I don't think he MEANT for the kids to die and all of the sudden I'm the softie.... I love it.
Thats OK my posts were deciphered that I was "excusing" the guy for what he did. Different minds look at things in a different ways.....an trust me,my mind is very "DIFFERENT" 
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,437
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,437 |
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After driving the 150 miles to get there he couldn't drive 10 more to see if they got there safely?
Yahoo Maps lists Jerome Idaho as being just over 30 miles from West Magic Idaho. Not that it matters how far it is, the last 10 is/was the key. I'd post the map, but I don't know how to delete all my addresses out of it.
You're right, my bad. I was referring to the part of the article where it stated Boise was 100 miles East or something like that. I read it as the guy had driven 100 miles to get there.
That makes it even worse. He was that close and couldn't even check on them?
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
After driving the 150 miles to get there he couldn't drive 10 more to see if they got there safely?
Yahoo Maps lists Jerome Idaho as being just over 30 miles from West Magic Idaho. Not that it matters how far it is, the last 10 is/was the key. I'd post the map, but I don't know how to delete all my addresses out of it.
I read that too, it says they were over 100 miles south of Boise in the article.. not that the trip is over 100 miles from one town to the other...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,437
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,437 |
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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