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Or at least some shiny pebbles? Any of the new pickups worth a darn?
Rubin seemed to do well as a backup NT, he got a lot of time there and did not suck. Any opinions on Leonard?
How about Steptoe as a #3? Someone suggested his blocking was bad, also he dropped a couple. Potential, or waste of time?
We at least found out Hadnot is not workable as Tucker's replacement.
Of course the position we most needed to evaluate did not get done, but I'm looking for some good news, somewhere.
I'm hoping for something to think about thru the offseason other than "Fear us, we have Pontbriand". That one still cheers me up, a little.
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Rubin seemed to do well as a backup NT, he got a lot of time there and did not suck. Any opinions on Leonard?
Rubin did fine as a rookie pushed into play due to injuries, Leonard played pretty well also, but anytime you have to rely on guys who normally fill in 4-5 plays a game for starters or rotation your gonna get hurt. Back-ups who shouldnt have seen the field, no gems here.
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How about Steptoe as a #3?
No as a # 3, Soild back-up for kick returns, special teams & fill in for # 3, but if we have him as a starter at # 3 wr than were not a very good team.
O_Line we had better draft a guard / center in the top three rounds, Me perferabley grab one in the 2nd round.
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What about Hall, Rucker and Bell.
I thought from what we saw of Hall he has potential.
He is still very raw, but showed some pass rush skills.
He needs to put on about 20-25 lbs of muscle, get stronger against the run.
Cover skills were better than I thought they might be, but at least I think he has potential.
Bell looked slow, maybe because of the knee injury.
Hopefully he will be ready to play this year and make an impact at least on a rotation basis.
Rucker, he was hurt most of the year. He has potential I think, but who knows for sure.
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
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What about Hall, Rucker and Bell.
Hall for sure.. Rucker probably,, Bell, I have no idea.. didn't see enough of him..
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Thers a possibility Alex hall could be a gem. Interested to see how he fares next year after all of the off-season weight training and such.
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Thers a possibility Alex hall could be a gem. Interested to see how he fares next year after all of the off-season weight training and such.
Sorry... But he won't get a shot to start here in Cleveland.. Not after this years draft.
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With our injury history? It's likely and probable.  He shouldn't be starting anywhere in this league right now...he's far too raw. But I do entertain notions of him progressing as the defense does. It's not about personnel so much as it is having a defensive scheme in place and plugging in the holes. RAC's scheme did nothing to get the most out of guys and evenrything to do with toning it doubt because his talent was weak.
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I hope that remains true.
But in any case if he weren't I would still like to see if he steps up his game next year. Would like to be confident in the fact that if we do bring someone in that if they were to go down we would have a reliable backup.
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Thers a possibility Alex hall could be a gem. Interested to see how he fares next year after all of the off-season weight training and such.
Sorry... But he won't get a shot to start here in Cleveland.. Not after this years draft.
I think he makes the team, maybe not as a starter, but possibly as a situational pass rusher.
I think he could be a special team demon if put in that situation.
You need fast linebackers in the 3-4 and that is something that I think we have lacked.
Hope springs eternal in the heart of a true Browns fan. GO BROWNS!!!!!
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Getting out a big, broad brush. I saw so many things that were fundamentally awful that didn't improve, didn't get coached up or coached out that it is hard to say. I was especially shocked to learn about such an incredible number of coaches that let it get worse instead of better. Injuries and yourh are tough to work around, but not a lot of growth. Steptoe is not yet a starter, and the defensive secondary was too atrociously bad too often for me to crow about. I say it remains to be seen, but not gems of quality IMO though I am eager to be wrong. Really tired of project people who may develop. Even the Stallworth oughtta be types have worn me out. I just want to play smarter, harder, and more intensely. A hard polishing might bring out some good. Hope for the best; got to see more of some people. Jury's out. Hard to offer a positive opine with this season. But it is behind us. Hope Mangini sets the bar much higher. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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You need fast linebackers in the 3-4 and that is something that I think we have lacked.
That is very true......as soon as you take care of McGinest and Davis....and possibly Wimbley.....you loose the slow ones. Now, even knowing that all of our other LB's......Hall, Bell, Orr, Williams are young and raw, you have speed.....and we haven't even went to the draft........they need a good coach....which we have in Ryan as long as Mangini backs off and lets him coach.....and I'm sure he will bring a good scheme......I can't wait to see what they can do.......more and more of the mock drafts I see are switching their "opinions" to us getting Malcom Jenkins.......I hope they are wrong.....
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Roscoe5319/Marty2.jpg) "Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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That is very true......as soon as you take care of McGinest and Davis....and possibly Wimbley.....you loose the slow ones.
Wimbley may not be what we thought he was going to be, but he's NOT slow.
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Sorry... But he won't get a shot to start here in Cleveland.. Not after this years draft.
Hopefully you correct, but It dosent matter if he starts and lets hope he dosent, but over the course as you well know Back-up are needed for spot starts and for special teams, along with diffrent games defensive aligments,
If were gonna compete with the Pittsburgh's & Ravens of the world we also need to up grade our back-ups, a good coach knows how to pick & chose what he needs & wants in back-ups as they change from year to year, knowing what is leaving and whats out thier is a gift our team hasnt had yet.
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I guess it depends on who you compare him to.....he is just big and awkward......and he isn't as fast as the other guys we have, I'll say that......I truley think that if you send him to the weight room and have him put on a few extra punds, we have something in Wimbley at DE......
"Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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i have been wondering how he would do at DE myself....it wouldnt hurt to take a look and see if he could still play DE...him rodgers and williams sound good on paper....but i would really have to be sold on the OLB we bring in to take his spot before i would try it...
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I guess it depends on who you compare him to.....he is just big and awkward......and he isn't as fast as the other guys we have, I'll say that......I truley think that if you send him to the weight room and have him put on a few extra pounds, we have something in Wimbley at DE......
Many moan about his not being able to play the run...Then u wanna get him up to what...275ish???...And put him at END in a 3-4???...Not gonna happen...And thankfully so...
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Defensive linemen in this system tend to be stouter, as they need to be able to hold their place without being overwhelmed in order to allow the linebackers behind them to make plays.[19]
This is the reason that defensive linemen such as Richard Seymour and Vince Wilfork do not always rack up gaudy sack and tackle statistics despite their critical importance to the team.[20]
I'm more curious to see if we move toward the 295 range in Ends versus the 320+ we have now...Williams is the one we need to watch...He may very well be gone if Mangini and Ryan believe in that 295 range thang...
There's ALOT to be said about this...Looking at Pitt/Balt/NE/SD...All Ends are in that 295 range...
Then comes the LB's...Look at them also...Jackson's LIGHT for the Inside...Hall's LIGHT for the Outside...Wimbley's PERFECT...And so is Bart Scott and Aaron Curry for the Inside...
Tyson Jackson...LSU...2nd round... 
Go Browns!!!
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just seems like the people we have in here woul dbe better suited for a 4-3 instead of a 3-4...i know mangini said we was sticking with the 3-4 but it seems like we need so many different peices for our 3-4 to work
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Totally forgot about Alex Hall. For a 7th rounder who at least shows promise as a back-up, that's a shiny pebble.
Did we see enough of Bell or Rucker to know anything? I figure McGinnest and Davis are toast, Bell's importance goes up a bit. If he could be even a minimal upgrade over one of those two, which shouldn't be hard, that's one less spot to fill.
Rucker is in a similar position, Winslow's health, contract, attitude and possible trade status makes him possibly more important.
With Joe J not a sure thing, and other major WR problems, I was hoping for Steptoe to show some more progress. IMO we very badly need a dependable third-down guy, a posession receiver. Dave Logan type. How is his route-running? If we arre running a short-passing O next year, we need somebody good in the #3 slot.
Then there's Sowells, who apparently wasn't good enough to replace Hadnot. I have read he was backing up LT, is it possible he WAS better than Hadnot but wasn't used as he was the only Tackle back-up? Or is he just not any good?
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i have been wondering how he would do at DE myself....it wouldnt hurt to take a look and see if he could still play DE...him rodgers and williams sound good on paper....but i would really have to be sold on the OLB we bring in to take his spot before i would try it...
How he would do? Terrible. His biggest strength is turning the edge, and he's been less than stellar with his bull rush and his run support. So now if he actually lined up against a Guard and a Tackle, he would get destroyed.
Roscoe - Wimbley is VERY fast. Speed itself has never been an issue with Wimbley. He constantly chases plays down and, if you remember in 2006, he actually had a one on one with Michael Vick where he didn't let him get around him. His biggest issues have been his lack of more than one move, his run support, and - to his credit - the predictability that he's the rusher every time.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Wimbley's biggest problem,over the latter part of the season,was a lack of desire.
There seemed to be a disconnect between he and the coaches.
I liked the way Haluchuck coached,EO doesnot.Using Wimbley as a gauge,it would appear EO is correct in his assessment.
Someone needs to put the drive back into this kid,he's an outstanding athlete,it's just not showing on Sundays.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I agree with you on Jackson. I think he'd be a stud in a 3-4, but I really hope we keep Williams. Despite not playing great this year, I am optimistic that he will be very good.
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I completely disagree. Wimbley's struggles have more to do with what's going on in his head than anything else. He has the physical tools and the desire for the job, but it looks to me like he's still thinking too much out there. He has always been an "effort" guy and I didn't see any drop off whatsoever this season. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that he "lacked desire" in any aspect of his play.
Having said that, I'm not sure he'll ever make it as a 3-4 OLB. The problem with tweener DEs coming out of college is that you don't really know if/when the light will come on for them. Picking out the physical attributes for the position is actually the easy part. Until they get into the playbook and begin to apply what they learn on the field, however, you just don't know if a tweener DE will be able to grasp the concepts and make them second nature.
I wonder about the relative success rates of taking college DEs and making them 3-4 OLBs vs. just getting good LB's and teaching them how to rush the passer. Seems to me your chances of success would be increased if you DIDN'T have to teach a player how to be a LB and you could focus on pass-rushing skills. I don't know. Maybe it is coincidence, but both Harrison and Woodley (Steelers) were LBs in college. If you look at how guys like Wimbley and Gholston have struggled (so far - I haven't given up on them yet) to pick things up, I just wonder if it really makes sense to try to make DEs into OLBs in a 3-4. Seems a lot more risky to me that way. If nothing else, I would think the learning curve has to be a lot steeper than teaching someone who already knows how to be a LB to rush the passer.
It will be interesting to see how we approach the draft if/when the time comes to consider a LB/tweener DE-prospect.
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I completely disagree. Wimbley's struggles have more to do with what's going on in his head than anything else. He has the physical tools and the desire for the job, but it looks to me like he's still thinking too much out there. He has always been an "effort" guy and I didn't see any drop off whatsoever this season. I have no idea where you're getting the idea that he "lacked desire" in any aspect of his play.
Having said that, I'm not sure he'll ever make it as a 3-4 OLB. The problem with tweener DEs coming out of college is that you don't really know if/when the light will come on for them. Picking out the physical attributes for the position is actually the easy part. Until they get into the playbook and begin to apply what they learn on the field, however, you just don't know if a tweener DE will be able to grasp the concepts and make them second nature.
I wonder about the relative success rates of taking college DEs and making them 3-4 OLBs vs. just getting good LB's and teaching them how to rush the passer. Seems to me your chances of success would be increased if you DIDN'T have to teach a player how to be a LB and you could focus on pass-rushing skills. I don't know. Maybe it is coincidence, but both Harrison and Woodley (Steelers) were LBs in college. If you look at how guys like Wimbley and Gholston have struggled (so far - I haven't given up on them yet) to pick things up, I just wonder if it really makes sense to try to make DEs into OLBs in a 3-4. Seems a lot more risky to me that way. If nothing else, I would think the learning curve has to be a lot steeper than teaching someone who already knows how to be a LB to rush the passer.
It will be interesting to see how we approach the draft if/when the time comes to consider a LB/tweener DE-prospect.
I think you nailed a lot of it on the head. I found myself wondering all season if I were coach would I look to add 15 or 20lbs to Wimbley and move him back to DE. By all accounts I've heard/read he's a really smart kid, he's physically very strong, he always gives 100% and the coaches love the guy but he just isn't turning the corner at OLB and you have to wonder if we're just trying to force a square peg in a round hole. His speed is quite dangerous as a down lineman, you need fewer in-space moves which is where he really kinda stinks. I think it's definitely worth the experiment.
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You need fast linebackers in the 3-4 and that is something that I think we have lacked.
That is very true......as soon as you take care of McGinest and Davis.........Hall, Bell, Orr, Williams are young and raw, you have speed.....
Man I wish the Browns could have re-signed Chaun Thompson as a backup and specail teams player. Especailly every time I see the names of those backups. Outside of Hall, there was no contribution last year from any of those other names. Everyone wants to get rid of Davis, (I want to sign him as a cheap backup because he is better then Orr and Williams), but not only do the Browns need to upgrade Davis, they need to upgrade his backups as well. Moving Davis to backup at the right price would upgrade that. (Like the Steelers upgrading Farrier, then bringing him back as a backup that can step in after any play) I feel the team has too many things to worry about then finding a new starting ILB and backup ILB that would be new to the team. Everyone gets excited about the starting 22 players, but consistant playoff teams fill out a whole 53 man roster with veteran backups, not potential..
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I got that from watching him closely,on every play from the 11th game on.
When a LB doesnot move forward to take on a blocker,when a LB turns his shoulders to the sideline,that's either real bad technique,or a lack of desire.
Not having seen those things on such a consistant basis in his past play,it leads me to believe it's more a lack of desire moreso than bad technique.
Maybe there was an injury that we weren't made aware,maybe something else was going on,whatever,the fact remains he played horribly.
Right now,he's a 3rd down rush specialist,who can't get to the QB.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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How he would do? Terrible. His biggest strength is turning the edge, and he's been less than stellar with his bull rush and his run support. So now if he actually lined up against a Guard and a Tackle, he would get destroyed.
Roscoe - Wimbley is VERY fast. Speed itself has never been an issue with Wimbley. He constantly chases plays down and, if you remember in 2006, he actually had a one on one with Michael Vick where he didn't let him get around him. His biggest issues have been his lack of more than one move, his run support, and - to his credit - the predictability that he's the rusher every time.
The pure fact that you pull one play from 2006 should be reason enough to prove that Wimbley just really isn't a good LB.....or DE for that matter...Anyone can look fast if they take the right angle.....I was just talking about adding speed to the LB crew......and making a point that removing him would make the LB crew faster.......while Wimbley is fast for a DE, he is average at best for a LB.....I just want to see some of the younger guys we have......I know what WImbley can or can't do.....but Bell is someone that had high expectations that we never got to see really....
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I'd say Rogers was a new pick up and worth a darn 
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I'd say Rogers was a new pick up and worth a darn
Yeah, that was a great pick-up....probably the best player on the team right now......
"Winning is not a some time thing, it's an all the time thing" ....-Lombardi-
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How he would do? Terrible. His biggest strength is turning the edge, and he's been less than stellar with his bull rush and his run support. So now if he actually lined up against a Guard and a Tackle, he would get destroyed.
Roscoe - Wimbley is VERY fast. Speed itself has never been an issue with Wimbley. He constantly chases plays down and, if you remember in 2006, he actually had a one on one with Michael Vick where he didn't let him get around him. His biggest issues have been his lack of more than one move, his run support, and - to his credit - the predictability that he's the rusher every time.
The pure fact that you pull one play from 2006 should be reason enough to prove that Wimbley just really isn't a good LB.....or DE for that matter...Anyone can look fast if they take the right angle.....I was just talking about adding speed to the LB crew......and making a point that removing him would make the LB crew faster.......while Wimbley is fast for a DE, he is average at best for a LB.....I just want to see some of the younger guys we have......I know what WImbley can or can't do.....but Bell is someone that had high expectations that we never got to see really....
LOL... that was just one play off of my head talking about his speed. AND, I never made an allegation that he was a good LB. I just think it's ridiculous to even THINK about making him a DE in this defense, and/or to think that Wimbley is slow.
By the way, on your speed argument.
Merriman ran the 40 in 4.65
Wimbley ran it in 4.61
Ware ran it in 4.56
D'Qwell ran it in 4.73
So please tell me how removing Wimbley would make our LB's faster.
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I'd say Rogers was a new pick up and worth a darn
Yeah, that was a great pick-up....probably the best player on the team right now......
I'll actually agree with you there and say that he IS the best player on the team right now.
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I just think it's ridiculous to even THINK about making him a DE in this defense, and/or to think that Wimbley is slow.
By the way, on your speed argument.
Merriman ran the 40 in 4.65
Wimbley ran it in 4.61
Ware ran it in 4.56
D'Qwell ran it in 4.73
So please tell me how removing Wimbley would make our LB's faster.
Oh, I agree with you that Wimbley isn't a DE........I just figured that since he can't play LB for crap that it was worth a shot to try him out there.....
Speed just isn't in the 40 time.......you have to shed blockers, protect your gaps..take the right angle of pursuit...etc...I'm not sure exactley where you got those times, but it's REAL funny to me that Ware is the only player "faster" as you say than Wimbley......even the "slower" guys still put up better numbers than him consistently every year........so that just goes to show you....... 
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"Speed just isn't in the 40 time.......you have to shed blockers, protect your gaps..take the right angle of pursuit"
Just n FYI for your argument here...regarding LBs speed is actually determined better via their FIRST STEP...in that I agree Wimbley has been hesitant in his first step. DQ who has a much slower 40 time has shown more football speed cause of his first step speed. Read n React.
JMHO
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I hear you that his numbers haven't been good, but I don't think he's slow. I just think he's soft.
Tab - I also agree that he is hesitant in his first step, but if I remember, his cone drills were pretty good at the combine as well IIRC. I wonder if he thinks too much.
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Defensive players with speed are great.....if they can use it to get to the ball. If they can't get to the ball, who gives a crap how fast they are??
If they have physical and mental deficiencies as does Wimbly, speed doesn't mean much.
Ask Chumpson.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,522
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,522 |
I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you. But of course you lawyer types always have to be heard.  
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
Thers a possibility Alex hall could be a gem. Interested to see how he fares next year after all of the off-season weight training and such.
Good point. I hadn't really thought about him adding muscle to his frame.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Also, I guess you can say we found a gem in Jerome Harrison. I mean, we found out that he can actually play. Instead of just wondering if he is good or not.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,850 |
Quote:
Also, I guess you can say we found a gem in Jerome Harrison. I mean, we found out that he can actually play. Instead of just wondering if he is good or not.
yea.. thank goodness he scored that last TD of the season... 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Yeah, now we just gotta work on his durability issues.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 602
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 602 |
I don't get the hype on J. Harrison ???? Yea, he showed some good flashes, real good. But how in the world do we know if he can carry the load. My memory is not the best, but didn't he get hurt in the one game he seemed to be getting a decent amount of carries? He can't block, He doesn't seem big enough to get the inside yards, and I don't know if I have seen him break a tackle yet either. Now granted, he hasn't had to break many because it does seem real hard to get your hands on him  . TO be honest he strikes me as another Darren Sproles. Yea, he can spell your #1 RB for a couple of series. He could be a GREAT 3rd down back. He may even be able to handle a whole gameplan. But IMHO, like Sproles, when a Defense knows that he will be your feature back........they can gameplan to shut him down......and succeed. Don't get me wrong, I think he was WAYYY under-utilized this yr. as we hardly EVER saw him, even on 3rd downs, and I do like him better then Wright, although I beleive Wright is a more complete RB. I guess I just don't get the "diamond in the rough" feeling it seems alot of you have. 3rd down back....yes.....big-play ability in the role......yes.......everydown RB in the league........NO.
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Did we find any gems this year?
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