DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Closing Club Gitmo

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Same question to you mac. When did you serve, and what unit? Which war were you in? How much combat did you see?

Specifics please. I've seen you pull this too often, always questioning others about military service. So tell us, what combat zone were you in?

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Are U talking about combat zones other than the one that resides in between his ears ....

Diam...I will go slow for you...

first...In response to your claim...Quote:...Its a good thing these folks either have no clue what actually happens in the field or turn there heads and just ignore it .. cause that stuff is like a day at the beach compared to what happens in the filed ....

and if this dude was going to take part in 9/11 .. they treated him way to good IMO ... that wasn't even torture .... I'm with U .. lets see if he can fly ... *L* ..

bleeding heart liberals .. U gotta love um ..
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DIAM...I POSTED THE FOLLOWING...Diam...trouble reading?...that wasn't even torture?

Let's see...do I believe Diam the great?...or the GOP appointed Judge Crawford?


"We tortured Qahtani," Judge Crawford said in her first interview since her appointment by Defence Secretary Robert Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case (for prosecution)."

Judge Crawford, a lifelong Republican, said: "I sympathise with the intelligence gatherers in those days after 9/11, not knowing what was coming next and trying to gain information to keep us safe. But there still has to be a line that we should not cross. And unfortunately what this has done, I think, has tainted everything."

She said someone should acknowledge that mistakes were made and take responsibility.


"I think someone should acknowledge that mistakes were made … and take responsibility for it," she said.

"We learn as children that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission," Judge Crawford said. "I think the buck stops in the Oval Office."
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DIAM...The opinion above is not mine...its the professional opinion of Judge Crawford. I referenced the article where the Bush appointed judge Crawford claimed that detainees were tortured and as a result, many cases have been put in jeopardy...that's the short summation.

The point I'm trying to make is, IT DOES NOT MATTER what you or I or anyone else thinks about whether these detainees were tortured or not. What does matter when it comes to prosecuting these detainees is the "LAW".

I referenced the Judges opinion...VS...Diam's opinion

Diam, as I said, forgive me for siding with Judge Crawford and her interpretation of torture...VS...your take.

My entire point was to show you (and others), your personal opinions don't mean squat...VS... THE LAW AND THE REALITY OF THIS CASE.

I hope this cleared the issue up for you...mac

Below is the rest of what I wrote concerning that post.

Diam...hopefully you can now understand that the problem here is not the bleeding heart liberals, but those who made the mistakes in the way they obtained information from the detainees.

As (GOP) Judge Crawford said, "I think the buck stops in the Oval Office."

Diam, forgive me for siding with Bush's Judge Crawford on this one... ...mac

Rules in war sound nice......but really man, there are no rules in war.

We will get these guys in to a military tribunal where the rules change.

Every time I start to feel sorry or soft toward these people I imagine my sister, daughter or wife being this gal



Then I am cleansed and don't care about them so much.

Guess I missed it in all the blue print - cyan I believe.

Where did you serve again? Which war?

I distinctly remembering you telling me, years ago, that since I hadn't served my opinion was null and void. So, where did you serve again? Which war were you being shot at in?

Or does it only matter if you have a family member involved? Or, does other peoples opinions matter regardless? Can you clarify for us mac?

Hate to make this about service, but it seems to me you started down that road.

Oh, by the way, you never answered the question I asked: would you prefer to have your head cut off, or just be tortured with water boarding and having to stand nake in front of a lady?

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diam writes...like I said .. folks like U and Mac and Pit enjoy the freedom this country gives U but have no clue what it takes to maintain it ...

maybe just maybe if u were ever in the military .. U would have some semblance of a clue about whats going on .. but i doubt it ..

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Diam...now I will respond to this...

You have no friggin clue what sacrifices our family has made for the country we love, do you?

Dad lied about his age during WWII and was just 16 when he joined the Navy. He was blown off the front gun of a landing craft when their boat got hung up on a sand bar of some island in the South Pacific. He spent a year recovering from his injuries and was never able to return to duty.

I joined the USAF in 72 and served until 76. The Vietnam war was winding down and I never left the states. I did have many friends who were in Nam and they told me of instances where VC did fly out of a blackhawk after refusing to answer some questions...the landing spot was never found.

My son has spent 17 years in the Navy as a Corpsman and recently, two tours in Iraq. His first tour in Iraq, he volunteered for medivac duty, flying over 100 missions during the battle of Falluja, risking his life to save the lives of his fellow soldiers.

Diam...you want to claim our family does not know what sacrifice for our country is all about? I don't have a clue? Maybe if I served my country I might understand?

The point you miss about my comments was, not once did I give "my" personal opinion about torture.

I did say I agreed with the Judge Crawford that these Gitmo cases have been tainted by the way the Bush administration handled them. Judge Crawford said "I think the buck stops at the Oval office", and I agreed with her.

Next time you want to challenge someone patriotism, you better have your own ducks in a row...mac

Why do I get the feeling you are ignoring my questions?

Let's see: your dad served in combat. Give him my thanks.

Your son has served in combat. Give him my thanks.

You were in the Air Force for 4 years. Thank you.

You were never shot at. You never served during a time of war. Yet you have some clue that the rest of us don't?

Little hint here mac: many of us, many of us, have relatives that served during war time, myself included. Was I in the Air Force during a time of peace? No, I was not. Do I have relatives that served during a time of war, facing bullets coming at them? Yup. So, it appears your "know it all" stance on war isn't applicable to only you. Funny how that works, isn't it?

You denounce others opinions. Yet when the pudding turns green, your experience is no more than the people you attempt to belittle.

Ironic.

Thank your son for me ... and may god bless him ...

Thanks to your Pa ... may god bless him also ...

and thanks to U for for service ...

I won't discuss mine because to me IT DOES NOT MATTER ... its IRRELIVENT ...

I knew the first time I posted that u would not get it .. i knew it ... and as usual u do not have the slightest clue or comprehension as to what i mean ... i'm used to it from U from the footbal side .. same mac .. different subject ...

I won't waste any more time on U here after this ... and i will say it one more time .. not quite sure why as U just don't get it ..

I do not care what she ruled ... not in the slightest .. its war .. there are no rules in war ... if u think she ruled correctly (and not by the law mac .. i get by the law she did what she had to .. i'm not dense like some ... ) in that its the right thing to do ... then u do not get it ... I could care less if u spent 30 years and were a 19 star general with 7 purple hearts ... u would not get it ...

I applaud your buds in Nam .. and I bet after they threw the 1st VC out the helo the next one sang like a canary .. if not after they tossed him #3 prolly started singing before #2 hit the ground ... problem is we can;t do stuff like that now a days .. if we did and anyone found out about it .. they'd be court martialed and sentanced to death or spend the rest of their lives in Levenworth ... and for what?? TRYING TO GAIN INFO TO SAVE AMERICAN LIVES ... theres where U and the rest of the bleeding heart liberals come in .. PC is something that I am proud as hell to say I am not ... it has HELPED RUIN THIS COUNTRY .... of that there is no doubt in my mind ....

U support this decision .. well psshaw on U as far as I'm concerned ... u do not get it ..

see Peen's pic above ... thats all I need ... after that they have no rights and NO EVIDENCE COULD BE TARNISHED IN MY VIEW .. NONE ... if i ever thought we "CROSSED SOME LINE" as judge judy says .. I'd just take a look at Peen's pic and the line would be gone .. and I do not care what judge Judy or the law says ...

Thanks again to U and your family Mac .. and i mean that .... have a good one ... i'm done with U here .... not worth my time ..

j/c

I will never get how someone could ever think that because we defend ourselves we provoke more people to attack. Its stupid. Its a dumb claim. You are blaming the police for the creation of criminals. Sounds quite typical of the current crowd. I honestly dont give a rats hang what war someone died in when defending this country. The point is they died keeping this country in existance and they are now dishonored by "bleading hearts" that are willing to give a benefit of a doubt to people captured trying to kill Americans.

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I do not care what she ruled ... not in the slightest .. its war .. there are no rules in war ... if u think she ruled correctly (and not by the law mac .. i get by the law she did what she had to .. i'm not dense like some ... ) in that its the right thing to do ... then u do not get it ... I could care less if u spent 30 years and were a 19 star general with 7 purple hearts ... u would not get it ...

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Diam...here you go again, assuming and not taking the time to read and comprehend what I
wrote.

The judge was commenting on the rule of law and not giving personal opinion. The only part of the article I posted were Judge Crawford may have gave her personal opinion was were she said this...

"I think someone should acknowledge that mistakes were made … and take responsibility for it," she said.

"We learn as children that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission," Judge Crawford said. "I think the buck stops in the Oval Office."

My comment "was" about the (LAW) decision the judge made "based on the rule of law". I also commented about her claim about the orders coming down from the Oval Office. She was attempting to get someone in the Bush administration to stand up and take responsibility for the mess they created at Gitmo by torturing the detainees. I was commenting about the fact that all these cases at Gitmo may never be able to be prosecuted because of the way they were handled.

As I said I have not given my personal opinion on the subject.

Just to interject ..... and I must mention that I didn't read the entire thread to make sure this didn;t already appear .....


I did find it curious that California, Kansas, Colorado and South Carolina could have some ...... interesting ....... new neighbors.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28800516/

Ex-Gitmo detainee reportedly gets al-Qaida role
Key Dem says Obama needs to be ‘careful’; critics warns about Gitmo order

CAIRO, Egypt - A released Guantanamo Bay terror detainee has re-emerged as an al-Qaida commander in Yemen, highlighting the dilemma facing President Barack Obama in shaping plans to close the detention facility and decide the fates of U.S. captives.

A U.S. counterterror official confirmed Friday that Said Ali al-Shihri, who was jailed in Guantanamo for six years after his capture in Pakistan, has resurfaced as a leader of a Yemeni branch of al-Qaida.

"By Allah, imprisonment only increased our persistence in our principles for which we went out, did jihad for, and were imprisoned for," al-Shihri said in a video posted on a militant-leaning Web site Friday. It was the second time this week a reference to al-Shihri has shown up on the Web site. He was mentioned in an online magazine on Jan. 19 with a reference to his prisoner number at Guantanamo, 372.

Al-Shihri was released by the U.S. in 2007 to the Saudi government for rehabilitation. But this week a publication posted on a militant-leaning Web site said he is now the top deputy in "al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula," a Yemeni offshoot of the terror group headed by Osama bin Laden. The group has been implicated in several attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Yemen's capital Sana.

The announcement from the militant site came the same day that Obama signed an executive order directing the closure of the jail at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, within a year.

A key question facing Obama's new administration is what to do with the 245 prisoners still confined at Guantanamo. That means finding new detention facilities for hard-core prisoners while trying to determine which detainees are harmless enough to release.

'Returned to the fight'
According to the Pentagon at least 18 former Guantanamo detainees have "returned to the fight" and another 43 are suspected of resuming terrorist activities. Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell declined to provide the identity of the former detainees or what their terrorist activities were.

It is unclear whether al-Shihri's name would be a new addition to that list of 61.

Al-Shihri is one of a small number of deputies in the Yemeni group, the U.S. counterterror official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss sensitive intelligence.

The militant Web site referred to al-Shihri under his terror nom de guerre, "Abu Sayyaf al-Shihri." The video refers to him as "Abu Sufyan al-Azdi al-Shahri."

An online magazine posted to the Internet site said al-Shihri is the group's second-in-command in Yemen. "He managed to leave the land of the two shrines (Saudi Arabia) and join his brothers in al-Qaida," the statement said.

Included in the site's material was a message to Yemen's populace from al-Qaida figure Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden's top deputy. SITE Intel Group, which monitors extremist Web sites, provided a partial translation of the magazine article and the video.

According to Pentagon documents, al-Shihri was stopped at a Pakistani border crossing in December 2001 with injuries from an airstrike and recuperated at a hospital in Quetta for a month and a half. Within days of leaving the hospital, he became one of the first detainees sent to Guantanamo.

Al-Shihri allegedly traveled to Afghanistan two weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, provided money to other fighters and trained in urban warfare at a camp north of Kabul, according to a summary of the evidence against him from U.S. military review panels at Guantanamo Bay.

An alleged travel coordinator for al-Qaida, he was also accused of meeting extremists in Mashad, Iran, and briefing them on how to enter Afghanistan, according to the Defense Department documents.

Terrorist battleground
Al-Shihri, however, said he traveled to Iran to buy carpets for his store in Riyadh. He said he felt bin Laden had no business representing Islam, denied any links to terrorism, and expressed interest in rejoining his family in Saudi Arabia.

Yemen is rapidly re-emerging as a terrorist battleground and potential base of operations for al-Qaida and is a main concern for U.S. counterterrorism officials. Al-Qaida in Yemen conducted an "unprecedented number of attacks" in 2008 and is likely to be a launching pad for attacks against Saudi Arabia, outgoing CIA Director Michael Hayden said in November.

The most recent attack, in September, killed 16 people. It followed a March mortar attack, and two attacks against Yemen's presidential compound in late April.

The impoverished country on the southern tip of the Arabian peninsula has a weak central government and a powerful tribal system. That leaves large lawless areas open for terrorist training and operations.

Yemen was also the site of the 2000 USS Cole bombing that killed 17 American sailors. Seventeen suspects in the attack were arrested; ten of them escaped Yemen's jails in 2003. One of the primary suspects in the attack, Jamal al-Badawi, escaped jail in 2004. He was taken back into custody last fall under pressure from the U.S. government.

Key Dem urges caution
Rep. Jane Harman, D-California, who heads the House Homeland Security subcommittee on intelligence, said the reports about al-Shihri should not slow the Obama administration's determination to quickly close the prison.

"What it tells me is that President Obama has to proceed extremely carefully. But there is really no justification and there was no justification for disappearing people in a place that was located offshore of America so it was outside the reach of U.S. law," she told CBS's "The Early Show."

But Rep. Pete Hoekstra, of Michigan, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, criticized the executive order Obama signed Thursday to close the facility as "very short on specifics."

Interviewed on the same program, he said there are indications that as many as 10 percent of the men released from Guantanamo are "back on the battlefield. They are attacking American troops."

Terrorist in the neighborhood

Obama’s three executive orders, coming on Day Two of his presidency, sought to show that the United States does not torture and abides by domestic and international laws governing the treatment of detainees.

The Obama administration is looking at three military prisons — in Kansas, California and South Carolina — along with the civilian Supermax prison in Colorado as potential sites for the Guantanamo detainees.

“I don’t know of any city that would be thrilled to have Khalid Sheik Mohammed or Abu Zubaydah living down the street,” Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., said of two high-level al-Qaida operatives who are being held at Guantanamo.

In a related development, a federal judge decided to give the Obama administration time to weigh in on some of the legal cases brought by U.S.-held terror detainees.

U.S. District Judge John Bates gave the new president and his Justice Department until February to tell him whether they want to change the government's position on the definition of "enemy combatant." Prisoners from U.S. detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan are challenging their detention as so-called enemy combatants in federal court.

"The new presidential administration may wish to review the government's current position regarding the appropriate definition of 'enemy combatant' to be used in these and other habeas cases," Bates said Thursday.

I have changed my mind. Someone mentioned last night that if they sent these guys to US prisions they would be surely killed. Best result possible.

I never intended to imply I lost a kid over there...I was merely pointing out that if you had, you might think twice about the whole 'life is unfair' bravado.

Every knee-jerk 'once they did this to us the gloves came off' post you have could easily be used as a flimsy excuse to explain away the horrendous murders these people have committed against us.

If you want to stack up terrorist atrocities, what we've done over there makes 9/11 look like a firecracker. Until we stop it, they're going to keep coming. They've been fighting like bloodthirsty animals over there for centuries, and never took the fight to us until we stuck our nose in their business. Unless you believe that they just hate our freedom.

If you a damn clue ADR, you would know that it doesnt matter if "we stop over there". These people are not like our western peoples, they don't think like us, you cannot be diplomatic with them.

They are taught from birth to kill us not because of "freedom" they believe we are all against their religious beliefs.and that God wants them too.

But relaizing facts might mean removing the straw from the TV set to your head.

It's obvious Obama feels as you do, that if we them alone, they will do the same. If we leave the middle east alone, Americans will die. It that simple. From reading your posts you obviously have not a clue of how the world works outside of info your recive from national news stations.

Again, you not a clue why the Arabs hate us, and the simple fact that the only way to deal with them is war. Their goal is to kill every american, we either are going to kill them or kill us.

An this statement makes me so sick, and upset it's best that I don't think about so im not banned for saying what I really feel. But I will say, that it is people like you that are the reason that this country is failing.

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If you want to stack up terrorist atrocities, what we've done over there makes 9/11 look like a firecracker.

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That is one of the most disgusting and totally ignorant statements I can remember. Those statements is why I should stay in football related topics or risk getting upset enough that im banned for things I'll say.

First, it wasn't aimed at civilians, and that is important to remember....

And to be honest, I don't care about them.

If I had my way, we would end this now. Just get in one big ass fight and see who's standing at the end of the brawl....that is where it is headed anyway.

If we are going to put people to work, we might as well order up 10,000 bombers, 500 subs, and 500,000 cruise missiles. We are going to need them.

Yes, all major religions are variations of the same fable or parable. The story of Christ existed in many religions, long, long before Christianity.

Every story has already been told...they just come in different variations.

I won't debate the point.

My opinion is set...300,000 cruise missiles would head that way.....200,000 for those that object.

I start looking at my people jumping out of 100 story buildings in a this or that situation, I am going to have some ass.

But that is just me.....I know some don't agree.

I am well aware of the sig....that doesn't mean you go point, counterpoint infinitatem.

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I have changed my mind. Someone mentioned last night that if they sent these guys to US prisions they would be surely killed. Best result possible.

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really .... what was that Americans˜name .. John what ... the one that turned Al queda ... knew about 9/11 a couple months before ... fought with Al queda and was captured during one of the fights in Afgahanastan .....

he came home and was sent to prison .. did he get killed in prison .. I do not remember that if it happend .. and hes worse than them IMO ... so if hes not been killed why would they be again??? ....

I don't remember what happened to the guy. I also have no changed my mind. Just threw that out there for the commie pinkos (Amnesty International) out there to get upset about.

John Walker Lindh... still alive...

Hes in prison bro .... will be out when hes 37 ... AMAZING ... absolutely amazing ... crack dealers get longer sentances than this dude got ... and he KILLED AMERICANS and knew about 9/11 months in advance ...

and dude was never tortured ... the jerk offs from Newsweek or CNN found him amongst the prisoners and promised him if he talked they would "protect" him from our SF's and that he would get home safely ...

he admitted he knew about 9/11 in June or so ..

OH and ... an american CIA or FBI agent was tortured in front of him as he translated for the AQ .... hows that .. he watched an american and translated for the AQ while the American was tortured ... and now the guys in one of our prisons and going to be out of prison when hes 37 ( I think he got 15 years ... can't remember) ..

and No hes not dead .. hes more than likely in isolation ... the POS ... when he gets out of prison and someone kills the POS they should be given a medal or sumptin .. but my guess is if it happens .. they get a harshed punishment than this SOB got for watching torture and killing americans ...

ONLY IN AMERICA ...

U happen to know how much time he got DC?? .

and did U see that theres like 20 MUSLIM KIDS THAT ARE AMERICAN missing that attended a mosque in Minni .. and they trace the last 3 to Somalia ... a known AQ haven ... wonder what these guys will end up doing ..

KINDA SCARY ... guess we inflicted on ourselves though ..

Pit, as for those kids missing from the mosque in Minnesota - it has happened many times that muslim kids from the u.s. end up overseas to fight. Some of them apparently go willingly, some have apparently been kidnapped and taken overseas, and yes, most of the time it's Somalia they go to or are sent to. Not all the time, though.

Just an FYI

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I have no proof why they went there at all. And from what I've read, neither does anyone else. Just speculation and conjecture.

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*LOL* .. your bueatiful man .... really bueatiful .... let me get this straight ... and this just pertains to the last group of 3 ....

you've got 16 - 19 year old MUSLIM HS KIDS ...

they all go to the same mosque .... (all 21 of them) ...

they all go on trips that cost 2,000 just for the tix .... they don't have jobs or a pot to pee in ...

none of them tell there parents there taking this trip ....

all of them get passports and make travel arrangements so it was obviously pre-planned ...

they all take seperate routes to Somalia ... a fine destination for ..... for .. for ... hmmmmm .... still trying to fill in that blank with anyting other than AQ related ...

with all that .. u have the nerve to say were jumping the gun by being scared ... *LOL* .. you are truely bueatiful man ... when u were a kid ... U weren't real good at the connect the dot game were U ....

next U gonna try and convince me that OJ wasn't guilty cause by your standards there isn't enough proof ... then after that U can convince me that Lee Harvey was the lone gunman cause by your standards theres no proof there either ... its all specualtion and conjecture ...

Thanks for the *L* bro .. have I told U that your bueatiful ....

Here are a few of the "innocents" released from gitmo:

web page

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They will get their day in court, which is one of the principles this country was founded on...the rule of law...not law by vigilantly groups or vigilantly justice.

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Yep, I'd like to be there when the prosecuting attorney knocks on the curtain of a mud hut in the mountains of Pakistan and serves a subpoena on somebody to testify in this case... See, the "rule of law" isn't just about the day in court... it's about the ability to discover necessary information, hold witnesses accountable through the punishment of perjury, etc... a whole bunch of stuff that the prosecuting attorney CAN NOT DO because of the nature of what these people may have done and how they may have done it. That is why enemy combatants are treated differently than normal criminals...

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There seems to be a lot of "fear" coming from the right wing concerning closing Gitmo and putting these "detainees" through our federal justice system. To me, that is un-American...us being afraid of suspected terrorists who will be behind bars, here in the USA.

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Do you know what the percentage of Muslims in prison is? It's pretty darn high... So I have an idea, let's take a group of people, many of whom are Muslims, all of whom have a criminal past, many of whom feel our country has wronged them by putting them in prison in the first place..... now let's put some hard core Muslim terrorists in with them... Great freakin' idea mac.... I swear, more liberals hit their head on the trees while looking for the forest than any group of people in the history of the world.

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Is that what some Americans have been reduced to?...fearing the unknown

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It's not the unknown, it's the OBVIOUS that scares those who are smart enough to see it.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled hand holding and the second verse of Kumbaya...

No clue why Bush let them go ... thats one hell of a good question ...

my guess would be political pressure from MenZas like mac that aren't intelligent enough to know the difference between being afraid and being smart .... I really have no clue ..

I mean look at mac ... he wants to respond and dispute the #'s that have left and gone back to being terrorists and KILL AMERICANS ... I wonder what the "acceptable %" is for bleeding hearts like him ... for me its 0% ... if even one out of 1000 went back to KILL AMERICANS ... that would be WAY TO MANY AND A BAD MOVE ... but thats just me ...

now if I were mac right now I would say that he values some terrorists rights more than he does American Lives .. but i won't sink the the levels he will cause that would be wrong and I know it ... just like he knows that most folks on my side of the fence are INTELLIGENT enough to understand the difference between being AFRAID and being SMART .... but that don't stop him ...

at the end of the day ... I could dowhat Mac does and go find some articles to back up my stance and answer the question of why Bush did it .. but those arguments make no sense to me ... as I donot agree with BUSH and what he says .....

I will say this .. Bush wanted to close Gitmo 3 or 4 years ago due to political pressure .. he looked into it and decided that he'd eat the NEGATIVE PUBLICITY and get politically ruined (not that he cared cause he was done anyhow) ... because he was going to PROTECT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE over that ...

U see .. at the end of the day ... heres just one of the purposes Gitmo served .. it is a place to keep these people DETAINED for as long as we could when we didn't have enough to convict them or keep them under wraps any other way .... to me .. THATS A GREAT PLACE TO HAVE THEM instead of out plotting to and helping to kill americans ...

but thats just me ... appearantly theres an "acceptable %" that can be released to go lill us before it becomes a problem .. or actually the bigger problem .. some are more worried about upholding the RIGHTS and CONSTITION than they are about KEEPING AMERICANS ALIVE ...

I am pretty sure our forefathers are flipping over in there graves non stop over what we've let this country become ..