DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns stuck on same track with decision to train (article)

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Yes we all have white sticks of wood stuck up our ass

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LOL...........you're weird, in a cool sorta way.

I will relax when I'm dead. Plenty of time to lay around doing nothing but being eaten by worms then.

We ain't fixin' the OL this year, bro. Firing coaches is a move to save face for past sins.

I understand the frustration...but how many teams have never, ever, ever had a HC who has experience at the job?

I'd look at Mariucci as well...just to add another name. But Haslett is the guy I'm stuck on. Hard-nosed, disciplined, defensive-minded, energetic, former Squeeler so we can stick it back to 'em. What's not to like?

BTW, my rants on the experienced HC thing are not an indictment only against RAC...even though I think he is not HC material. I'll say this same thing again after he is fired next year.

PIT...

i usually respect your point of view, but you got off on the wrong foot here...

1. you asked for 2 OCs that were promoted from TEs...you got them, and then you said that's not enough...
2. you stated that 2/32 means it isn't typically a successul transition...i ask you how many TE coaches have TRIED AND FAILED at the OC level? not ever getting a chance is not the same as failing...

i believe there is something else that may play a role in what you're claiming...let's assume you're correct, and that TE coaches as a group aren't as equipped as QB coaches to become OCs...could that simply be b/c most QB coaches tend to be ex-QBs, and therefore represent a smarter population of football guys? i mean, generally the game requires that QBs be the smartest guy on the offense...so while you see the hiring trend as a positional thing, could it not be a higher intelligence thing?...if that were a possibility, then on an individual basis, the position doesn't really mean much as long as the guy has the mental capabilities to handle the coordinator job...

I'm looking at this purely from "the odds of success" and "skill set" for the job.

There are three "main things" that a TE needs to learn.

1. How to block.
2. How to catch.
3. Run crisp,accurate routes.

So to be a VERY capable TE coach,instilling these basic fundamentals equate to success. Sure,you have to know how to recognise blitzes and speed rushers,but not the entire D scheme of your oponent.

Let's look at some other offensive coaching positions.

QB coach;
He must teach the QB who to read the oposing D. Both blocking and secondary schemes. How to recognize differing blitz packages. Quick read and react skills and an overall recognition and understanding of every oposing oponents defense.

OL coach;
While the seconday schemes aren't as critical here,they still need to teach the OL to recognize blitz packages,blocking schemes and traps,rolls,etc...

My point being,it's not "impossible" for a TE coach to be a successfull OC. However,the skill set it takes to teach TE's to be successfull in and of itself,in no way equates to the skill set it takes to be an OC.

And there are other position coaches,who's skill set to be successfull,are FAR more in line to give them the edge to a path that may lead to being a successfull OC.

So my contention is that there are many position coaches with far btter skill sets to attain our OC job than a TE coach. But,like all Browns fans,I'm praying for the best. I just don't plan to get my hopes up considering the reality of the facts posted above.

JMHO

Pit - lol
The claim of TE coach not being a source of fundamental knowledge to continue on from there into an Offensive Coordinator just doesn't make any sense.

1. Its up to the individual really.
2. there are many examples of OCs having a background as a TE coach. From all the background checks I've been reading the last couple of weeks. TE, OL n QB coach seem to be the most common backgrounds for OCs and even so its probably a coincidence but TE coaches are right up there with the other 2.

Chud will be good if he's a good coach point blank. If he's ready and prepared for this job. Hope he is.

As I've stated,he has a chance of success as does any coach who is "prepared and able" to take that leap.

And I'm sure many OC's have a "background" in being a TE coach. But directly from TE coach to OC? I think you'll find that in most cases,there's a natural progression upward from TE coach. And it isn't "normaly" a direct to leap to OC from the TE coach position.

As I've stated,he has a chance to succeed. But I think the odds would be better,and a more natural progression,if a coach went from QB coach,or OL coach to OC.

JMHO

Pit...just thinkin here.

Granted he's JUST been a TE coach in the NFL. BUT, Chud HAS in fact been an OC before. He OC'd a Miami Hurricanes team that won a national title and nearly won a 2nd one, with Ken Dorsey as a QB yet no less.

The guy isnt as bad as you think. Its just that hes developed Pro Bowl TEs that he's only been a TE coach in the NFL. He's still young, but he's done amazing things with Tight Ends in the past, so thats where he got his start/chances.

He's been an OC and called the plays before, and is still young and up and coming. He's a bright football mind, and Let him give it a shot. The worst that happens is that we play like we did when Mo was there.

That's what I'm doing. Giving him a shot. And wishing him well at it.

But didn't Butch Davis coach that team too? Wasn't he considered an "up and comer"? How did he fair in the NFL?

I'm not saying he "won't" be successfull. I'm saying the odds of going from a TE coach to OC in the NFL and being very successfull at it aren't all that high.

Plus,look at our talent level. Our OL? Our RB? Our WR's often seem like they couldn't catch a cold. So IMO,not only is he strapped with a lack of OC experience at the NFL level,he has to get "the very most" out of our personnel that a coach can possibly get. He has to ajust the scheme to fit the talent for success.

And I've heard the "Peterson" talk. IF that's the route they take and don't address the OL on the first day,it will only go to show that NONE of them get it. If he thinks a RB will be the key to "implementing his system" with this OL? Nope,he don't get it. So let's just wait and see.

Just to restate something that has been hammered around...


Noone knows how ANY new employee in ANY job is going to do when they are hired. This includes ones with lots of experience. Sure, the experienced ones give you a clearer idea of what you can expect to see, but their past performance is by no means prophetic of future performance, there are too many variables for that to be the case. On the flip side you have the young ones that are just kickin ass with everything they are given and constantly proving they are ready for more on their plate.

The difference in the "real world" and the NFL is NFL employees don't have to sweat 90-day probation periods and they have contracts and it's a pretty darn safe assumption that once you are hired you are there for at least that current season. That makes the weight of each decision that much more important. The "real world" also doesn't have to deal with "fans" screaming for the heads of management personnel that they don't like for whatever real or imaginary reason they have stuck in their little noggin.

As for why some experienced folks don't get hired? It could be as simple as it is known that their personality or management style just won't fit in.... or the real opinions on their performance is below that of popular perception (e.g. a coach getting too much credit for teams/units that did well in the past artificially inflating his perceived value). Hell, there's probably inumerable reasons just as there are when trying to hire a new Department Head or whatever at your company. What you're looking for may change with the position, but in general the process and the reasoning behind making the selections is generally the same regardless of the title.

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Plus,look at our talent level. Our OL? Our RB? Our WR's often seem like they couldn't catch a cold. So IMO,not only is he strapped with a lack of OC experience at the NFL level,he has to get "the very most" out of our personnel that a coach can possibly get. He has to ajust the scheme to fit the talent for success.

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Wow, Sounds like a job that's impossible to accomplish to me...

So if he doesn't succeed,,,, Then what?

It's funny, but at first when I heard Chud was hired as OC, I wasn't really very happy with the choice...

Then I started looking around at others candidates that could or were availble. And outside of a few that were never going to come here like Cam Cameron, I didn't see much.

Then I listened to Chud in his introductory presser and realized, perhaps given all that is involved, he may just be the best choice for this particular job..

He's young, bright and has been successful at the college level with every job he's held and the same with the Pro Level.

So why was I unhappy I asked myself,,, I could no longer come up with good reason..

So, I'm settling in for the rest of the winter,,, I'll watch what takes place in FA and the Draft to fix the holes in the O.. and yes, I'll do alot of Hoping.. Cause in the end, as a fan, what else can I really do?

And Peen,I'm quite sure you remember how critical everyone was of Butch for "homerism". With his coaching staff,players drafted,etc....

People complained how they weren't experienced ad or capable of being here,were overvalued and how Butch used his "buddies" more than exploring experience around the NFL. Now,just three years removed,we're getting a return trip from one of these very same coaches everyone was criticising,and WAH LAH! He's going to be great and has the right pedigree?

How soon many forget huh?

again, people have given you success stories that you asked for...can you give failure stories?...

What?
There's TONS of failure stories from EVERY position coach that's been moved up in the ranks!

You really don't comprehend that without doing a Google search??????

well, then show me that TE-->OC is a higher failure rate than other steps up...it was YOUR claim...YOU back it up...

I'd get the hip waders out if I were you.... the answer is bound to be messy and have ya in it up over your knees.

"Now,just three years removed,we're getting a return trip from one of these very same coaches everyone was criticising"

Sorry Pit...you can possibly be the one with failing memory.

Actually I remember Chud coming here and he was embraced by all the media and knowledgeable fans as a great hire.

He wasn't here more than 6-8 months when the regime got blown up and went totally haywired...he wasn't remotely involved in the accusations and purge. Actually he was one of the few who had Teflon troughout the whole ordeal cause he just got here.

He was one of the few that were questioned by the media as we let go cause he seemed to be bright.

And so many embraced him here not as another MIAMI boy! But as a kid who watched the game outside through the glass doors to simulate being at the stadium!

Are you sure you're thinking of the same guy???

JMH?