DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Will Have Many Questions on Both Sides (article)

Sunday, January 25, 2009 1:19 AM EST

By JEFF SCHUDEL
jschudel@MorningJournal.com

FOUR weeks ago today the Browns played their final game of 2008 and, no surprise, the final game of the Phil Savage-Romeo Crennel era.

Enough time has elapsed to take a step back and do an objective analysis of the team Eric Mangini is inheriting, but rather than grade each player, this analysis will rank the various positions on the team from strongest to weakest with a review of 2008 and a look ahead to next season.


1.Tight end — Mangini wants to stockpile draft picks, a method that worked very well for his mentor, Bill Belichick. The Browns have a first, second, fourth and sixth round pick in April. They traded their third, fifth and seventh pick.

Tight end is the strongest position on the team because of Kellen Winslow Jr. He missed six games in 2008 and caught only 43 passes after totaling 171 in 2006 and '07. He butted heads with Savage and will be a challenge for Mangini. But it would be a mistake to trade Winslow unless the Browns can get a first-round pick for him, and that isn't going to happen. His right knee could go at any time, he wants a new contract and the one he is working on expires after 2010.

No team is going to give the Browns compensation that would equate to 80 catches. That makes Winslow more valuable than the pick they would acquire. The knee injury suffered by Steve Heiden Dec. 15 makes Winslow even less expendable. Heiden vows to be back for the opener in September, but there are no guarantees. Martin Rucker showed promise, but he needs another training camp.


2. Running back - Deciding whether Jamal Lewis should be his feature back in 2009 has to be a priority for Mangini. Lewis clearly didn't play as well as he did in 2007 when he rushed for 1,304 yards, the most by a Browns runner since 1965, but a lot went into Lewis' problems. The pass offense was a shell of what it was in 2007, so defenses could put eight men in the box. The offensive line didn't play well, so the holes were not big enough.

Sources say Lewis played hurt most of the year. Lewis emphasized "There is a difference between being hurt and being injured," but said he felt fine right through to the end.

Jerome Harrison proved a capable second back. He rushed for 245 yards on 34 carries and caught 12 passes after totaling 11 his first two seasons.

The Browns are deep at fullback with Lawrence Vickers and Charles Ali. Both can block. It will be interesting to see whether new offensive coordinator Brian Daboll uses Vickers as a receiver as much as Rob Chudzinski did. Let's hope not.


3. Defensive backs — There will be some argument here, but the Browns gave up 10 fewer passing touchdowns than they did in 2007 - 29 in 2007 and 19 in 2008 - and they swiped 23 passes. Eighteen of the interceptions were by defensive backs, led by Brandon McDonald with five.

McDonald and Eric Wright were second-year cornerbacks thrown into the fire. Wright started 13 games in 2007. He did not play well in December, and he knows it. He needs better coaching, or maybe it is more accurate to say he has to pay attention to his coaches. Evidence of that, McDonald went through a bad stretch but improved after employing the techniques Crennel taught him.

Strong safety Sean Jones is a free agent. He says he wants to stay with the Browns, but he'll go where the money is. He finished third on the Browns in tackles (82) despite missing four games recovering from knee surgery. The Browns will have to spend a high draft pick on a safety if they to do not re-sign him, so they might as well spend the money on Jones.

Free safety Brodney Poole is not an impact player, though he might be more of one if the Browns had a pass rush.

Depth is a major problem. Daven Holly missed all of 2008 recovering from knee surgery. His return would help, but he also is a free agent.


4. Quarterback — Crennel declared Brady Quinn the starting quarterback for 2009, but of course he no longer has a vote. Mangini was asked about Quinn and would not commit to the 2007 first-round draft pick from Notre Dame.

Quinn played in only three games before going on injured reserve with a fractured finger. Through no fault of his own, Quinn did not have enough time to prove himself. He was 1-2 as a starter and would have been 0-3 had Rian Lindell not missed a 47-yard field goal in Buffalo. Left unanswered were questions about his ability to throw downfield.

Derek Anderson's knee, injured Nov. 30 in the Indianapolis game, will heal before his confidence does. He threw 29 touchdown passes in 2007, but even then was convinced the fans preferred Quinn. He threw nine touchdown passes and eight interceptions in 2008. He was victimized by Braylon Edwards dropping passes and having no other competent receivers.

Ken Dorsey is a nice guy. He'd probably make a great neighbor and a good coach. But as a quarterback he is better off with a clipboard than a football in his hand.


5. Offensive line — We'll see how history plays out, but before the 2007 draft, Savage asked about 10 reporters individually who each would take with the Browns' first pick, the third overall. I piped up with Adrian Peterson, the running back taken seventh by the Vikings. About four or five others agreed. Some picked Brady Quinn and only one mentioned left tackle Joe Thomas.

Thomas is headed to his second Pro Bowl in two years, but he did not play as well in 2008 as he did his rookie year, and that started a chain reaction. Thomas and left guard Eric Steinbach are safe, but center Hank Fraley, right guard Rex Hadnot and right tackle Kevin Shaffer are not. It is difficult to replace three starters on the offensive line in one year, however.

Offensive line coach Steve Marshall said Ryan Tucker is the Browns best offensive lineman when healthy. Tucker, though, played in only one game - the 35-14 victory over the Giants. He missed the rest with injuries. Deciding whether he can count on Tucker for 2009 is another issue for Mangini to ponder.

6. Wide receivers — Collectively, this was this unit was the most disappointing of all in 2008 because it had so much potential. Joe Jurevicius being forced to miss the off season program because of a staph infection was a portent of things to come. He had seven operations in all on his right knee and had to miss the season while on the Physically Unable to Perform list. Jurevicius wants to play with the Browns in 2009; Mangini will be making a mistake if he decides to move on without Jurevicius. The Browns need his leadership in the locker room, and they could have used his 29 catches (50 overall) on third down in 2007.

I have been hard on Edwards. Running without shoes as he did in training camp was stupid. He didn't deserve to be spiked, but he caused his own problems and caused Anderson to be benched. But we all know Edwards is better than the player who caught 55 passes in 2008. He dropped 16 and still finished with 877 yards. He is entering his contract year. He put pressure on himself in 2008. With money on the line he'll be under even more pressure in 2009. He needs a chill pill instead of that energy supplement he endorses.

As for Donte Stallworth, he too has to write off 2008 as unlucky. He missed five games with a quadriceps injury and caught 17 passes.

The Browns don't have to blow up their receiving corps. If Jurevicius comes back and Edwards and Stallworth play like they're capable the sick offense can get better in a hurry.


7. Defensive line — Crennel and defensive line coach Randy Melvin deserve credit for getting nose tackle Shaun Rogers to produce consistently. New defensive line coach Bryan Cox is more of an in-your-face coach. Time will tell whether Rogers responds.

Left end Corey Williams battled shoulder problems all year. He had a half sack after seven sacks in 2006 and seven more in 2007 in Green Bay. He is more a 4-3 end than a 3-4 end, but Mangini will use the 3-4, so Williams will be in the same position in 2009.

The well is dry after that. Right end Robaire Smith is coming off a ruptured Achilles tendon. His replacement, Shaun Smith, has a big mouth, but like most trash-talking mediocre players he doesn't back up what he says with his play.

This area needs a serious upgrade. Savage had four years to improve the defensive line, and all he has to show for it is Rogers. Had he drafted Haloti Ngata in 2006 he would not have had to acquire Rogers.

8. Linebackers — The strength of a 3-4 defense is supposed to be the linebackers. The Super Bowl bound Steelers are Exhibit A. The linebackers are the weak link on the Browns and a major reason they were 4-12.

Not doing enough to improve linebacker was Savage's biggest failure as a general manager. The Browns have the fifth pick in the draft. Getting a starting linebacker with the pick is a must.

Willie McGinest and Andra Davis are free agents and in all likelihood will not be re-signed. Maybe the new coaching staff will kick Kamerion Wimbley's butt; the former regime kept saying how well he was playing, even when it was obvious he wasn't. The coddling did not work. Inside linebacker D'Qwell Jackson is better suited to be a middle linebacker in a 4-3 defense, but he is clearly the Browns best linebacker - 191 tackles in 2008.

Depth is a problem here, too. Leon Williams couldn't push out Davis. Rookie Beau Bell couldn't even get on the field with this sorry bunch. Rookie Alex Hall, an early flash, was invisible the last 11 games.


WE DIDN'T FORGET — Special teams: Special teams was really the best unit on the Browns, by far, but the unit has to be separated from the others because of the individual skills required by kicker Phil Dawson, punter Dave Zastudil and long snapper Ryan Pontbriand.

No player in the NFL is more exciting to watch than Josh Cribbs, whether he is he returning a kick, returning a punt or crashing into a returner from the opposing team.

If everybody on the roster played as hard as Cribbs did every game, the Browns would have been in the playoffs and Crennel would still be coaching. Unfortunately for the Browns, there is only one Josh Cribbs.

I just really wanna see if Mangini tries to "stockpile" draft picks this year... I'm sure he wants more picks, since it is his first year here, he will want to get the guys he wants on his team.

It will be more than interesting who plays on the Browns team in 2009.....

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But it would be a mistake to trade Winslow unless the Browns can get a first-round pick for him, and that isn't going to happen. His right knee could go at any time, he wants a new contract

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What's your take on that Shep???

Loved Rucker at Missouri...Still think he can be a 60 catch Tight End here for Quinn...That damn knee in training camp killed his entire season...Winslow's a special talent no doubt...But at this stage of the game I'd SHOP em' for 2 reasons...

CONTRACT & KNEES...We very well could snag a 2nd rounder for him...I TAKE IT and move on...

And what about Edwards???...This is the approach that I would take...SOON...I would start throwing numbers around with his Agent...And gauge the INTEREST shown in staying in Cleveland...If I get wind he's NOT INTERESTED...I start shoppin' him too...I don't want Brey gone because even tho he drops passes...He's still one of the BEST WR's in this league...He'd be a HUGE LOSS...And leave an even bigger hole...

Having said that...I take NO LESS than a First Rounder for Brey...NO LESS...He's a bonafide #1 Franchise Receiver...One of those hard spots to fill...

And this brings me to why I think we're not that far off...Defensive Line and Linebacker's...

The difference between Winning & Losing is very much set at the feet of Stopping the Run and Rushing the Passer...And this D can't do either...WHY?????...Not necessarily SCHEME...But more geared toward the failure of the DL and LB's...And u can directly blame it on FOUR specific individuals...

Robaire Smith's Season Ending Injury
Corey Williams new to scheme and all year injuries (Shoulder)
Willie MGinest's AGE
Andra Davis's inabilities

Looking at that right there I see a FIX for it...

Williams will be HEALTHY...
MGinest WILL BE REPLACED
Davis WILL BE REPLACED
Smith is a ? coming off that injury...

The best thing to do with R Smith is make him that 4th guy in the rotation...And if Tyson Jackson from LSU is available at 36 u snag him and insert him into this rotation immediately...

This happens to be a GREAT year to be addressing the OLB and ILB holes we have...There are fixes available in FA and at the 5 pick...We need to get a LB in FA...Whether it be a Dansby or Scott or Crowder at ILB...Or a Suggs at OLB...The Rat-Turds cannot sign all 3 FA LB's...One will be available...

And at 5 in the draft u have Curry at ILB and Brown at OLB...I want NO PART OF ANY CORNERBACK at 5...Yes Jenkins...That means YOU...The perimeter is NOT the problem with this defense...

ONE DE and getting Smith into the 4 spot...ONE OLB and ONE ILB will significantly change the outlook of this defense...And will significantly change the outcome of games...This is a GREAT year to do it with what's available in TALENT...

You can shop Winslow all ya want but who will take him with the contract demands, injury issues, and the uncertainty over the CBA? There is NO WAY we get good return value for him at this point....IMHO. We drive on with him in our plans, and the same with Bray.....hoping the regime change will reinforce the desire within these guys to excel to their true potential. If on April 25th someone wants to deal for Winslow and is willing to give a Day1 pick then hell yeah ya pull the trigger......the draft is heavy in 3-4 capable 'Backers.....the trade off is worth it in regard to Winslow.

As far as dealing/negotiating with Bray....I tell him "You're signed through 2009, you wanna show us you can still play ball??" I think he can.....

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Or a Suggs at OLB...The Rat-Turds cannot sign all 3 FA LB's...One will be available...

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Everyone keeps saying 3......they don't care if they keep 3, they wanna keep 2.....Ray Ray is near the end and they will let him dip his toes into the FA water and he will see that he won't command the high end of career contract money and will re-sign with them to attempt to return to the dance one more time with Baltimore before he retires.

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The perimeter is NOT the problem with this defense...

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Nope.......bolstering and returning guys to the front7 is key.......

EDIT- ORIGINALLY HAD BRAY SIGNED THRU 2010 BUT WAS THINKING UNCAPPED YEAR POTENTIAL NOT HIS CONTRACT

I will add this here

http://wp2.medina-gazette.com/2009/01/22/sports/mangini-has-an-edge/#comments


Mangini has an edge
January 22nd, 2009 ·

By SCOTT PETRAK

Staff Writer

The overzealous New York media crowned him Mangenius nearly immediately. Two years later, he was Man Without a Job.

Eric Mangini reached the postseason in his first year with the Jets, but a 4-12 record in 2007 and a 1-4 collapse to end this season without a playoff bid completed his downfall.

The Jets’ decision to fire him was welcomed by Browns owner Randy Lerner, who interviewed him the next day, committed to him soon after and hired him Jan. 8.

“I couldn’t be happier,” Jets tackle Damien Woody told ESPN.com. “Eric’s a great guy, an excellent young coach. He’s always on top of the details, from the smallest things to the big picture.

“I think it’s a great fit for Cleveland. Eric’s the type of coach to get them back on track.”

Change a coming

Mangini’s ultimate effectiveness won’t be determined for at least a couple of years, but what’s already known is that the personality of the job has undergone a significant shift in the last three weeks.

Mangini and former Browns coach Romeo Crennel were defensive assistants under Bill Parcells with the Jets. Mangini followed Crennel as Patriots defensive coordinator under Bill Belichick. They both believe strongly in the effectiveness and flexibility of the 3-4 defensive scheme.

The similarities end there.

Crennel is 61 years old, spent 24 years as an assistant before getting a head coaching job and won over his players with a friendly and honest approach. He was respected, but not feared, throughout the locker room and was loved by just about everyone in team headquarters.

He went 24-40 in four years in charge.

Mangini was 23-26 with the Jets, including 0-1 in the playoffs, after getting the job when he was 35. He made few friends.

Mangini cultivated an environment that kept everyone in the organization “on eggshells,” a former Jet who asked not to be identified told The Chronicle.

“If he walks past you in the hallway, he won’t acknowledge you,” the former player said. “He knows he could kick your (butt) out the door the next minute. It’s business.”

Browns linebacker D’Qwell Jackson was excited by the Mangini hiring, but wondered if he’d be approachable.

“That’s my only concern,” Jackson said by phone from Miami. “You could talk to Romeo and it didn’t have to be about football.

“If Mangini’s not like that, he’s not like that.”

He’s not like that.

One tough customer

After replacing Herm Edwards with the Jets, Mangini opened his first training camp practice with a live tackling drill where players, star receivers included, lined up 20 yards from each other in a restricted area.

“There were ridiculous collisions,” the former Jet said.

In four years, Crennel never ran this drill. He trusted his players to be in shape, to know their assignments and to behave themselves off the field. When they failed to comply, he was slow to pull the trigger on a punishment.

That approach may work with veterans but it can fail a young team, especially one that has immature stars with overinflated egos.

Mangini might be the perfect replacement. He held long, hard, detail-oriented practices and was a strict disciplinarian.

“Even though we were winning, it was dreadful at times,” Jet tight end Chris Baker told the New York Times, regarding three-hour training camp practices in 2006. “That first year he was here took some years off your life.”

Baker said he noticed a change in Mangini this season, as practices were shortened and he loosened up a bit. That doesn’t mean he’ll go soft on the Browns.

In addition to the physical element — the tackling drill was repeated throughout camp — Mangini demands mental toughness. He cranks the music during practice to create a distraction and covers every imaginable situation that could occur on gameday.

“Practices are even more intense than games,” the former Jet said. “He’ll have you prepared.

“If you’re used to pillow fights in training camp, that’s not going to happen. He’s going to find out what kind of players he has. And if he doesn’t like you, he’ll get rid of you.”

Mangini has a rigid set of rules off the field, as well, levying fines for a number of offenses.

“If the rules are broken, there’s consequences and those are strictly enforced,” Mangini said.

Jackson welcomes the change.

“With our young nucleus, it’s great to bring in a guy like that,” he said. “Not only does he have a winning attitude, he’ll be on our (butt).

“It’s going to be tough for all of us at first.”

Mr. personality

At his introductory news conference, Mangini was smart, focused and funny — even though he tried to escape without taking questions. He seemed likable with a genuine desire to coach the Browns.

Who knows if we’ll see that side of him again?

Mangini showed little emotion, and less of his personality, in his time in New York. Some players wondered if he was trying too hard to be like Belichick, the mentor he “betrayed” when he took the Jets job.

Mangini turned 38 on Monday; Belichick was 38 when he began coaching the Browns in 1991.

“Mangini rarely revealed his personality in public, leaving instead an image of a robotic, emotionless, analytical football coach,” the New York Times wrote. “On the sideline, he stood with his arms crossed, his eyes narrowed, his cheeks ballooned from ever-present wads of gum.”

Mangini’s stoic demeanor irritated Jets fans, much the same way Crennel’s expressionless stare on the sideline drove Browns fans mad. Mangini may have been evolving in his final days in New York, as he became agitated following one loss and showed some humor with the media.

“The most important thing to do is to be yourself and that’s who I felt I always was,” Mangini said of the Belichick comparisons. “I worked under Bill for a long time, worked under Bill Parcells for a long time and they were my football parents and I know with my kids sometimes I say things that my dad said.

“But the important thing is to be the best coach you can be, the best father you can be, and learn from all of those experiences and grow and move forward.”

Lerner was impressed in the interview and believes Mangini is his own man.

“He has been around successful teams,” Lerner told the Plain Dealer. “But he is not a mimic of someone else … he has been taking the bits and pieces of what he has learned and putting them together into his own system.”

Second chance

Lerner is counting on Mangini having learned from his time in New York.

After one good and one bad year, the Jets spent $140 million in the offseason and traded for quarterback Brett Favre to make a push for the playoffs in 2008.

The moves appeared to be paying off when the Jets started 8-3 and led the AFC East, but Favre faltered and the Jets crumbled. However, Mangini left those in New York impressed with his preparation and attention to detail.

“He’s done some amazing things,” Jets owner Woody Johnson said. “Nobody’s worked harder. He knows his X’s and his O’s. He’s a good teacher, but Mike (Tannenbaum, GM) and I felt it was time to make a change.”

Crennel credited Mangini with the idea to try receiver Troy Brown at cornerback when the Patriots secondary was decimated by injuries. The move played a significant role in the 2004 Super Bowl run, as Brown had three interceptions and 17 tackles.

If Mangini’s intelligence can’t be questioned, his game management can. He was criticized for decisions he made in the Jets’ season-ending collapse, which featured losses to lowly Seattle and San Francisco.

Mangini was fired with one year left on his four-year, $7 million deal, and Lerner hurried to give Mangini a four-year contract expected to be worth about $20.

“He shouldn’t have gotten fired,” Woody said. “As players, we let him down.”

Lerner wanted a coach with experience who was still in his prime. Mangini fits the bill and could follow the path of Belichick, Marv Levy, Mike Shanahan, Tony Dungy and Tom Coughlin – all of whom had much greater success in their second NFL stops.

In fact, nine of the last 11 Super Bowls have been won by coaches in their second jobs. Belichick has three of the titles.

There are also coaches who fail again when given a second shot, including Dick Jauron, Norv Turner, Wade Phillips, Dave Wannstedt and Herman Edwards.

Welcome back

Mangini got his start with the Browns as a 23-year-old ball boy who got promoted to public-relations intern, then low-level coaching assistant who specialized in gofer duties. He feels he’s completed the journey by returning.

“It is really special to be back here,” he said.

The Browns and Mangini could be writing a great story, one which Belichick was unable to finish in Cleveland.

“He’s a proven head coach,” Jackson said. “We have no more excuses.”

The former Jet doesn’t think Mangini will need any.

“I can’t believe he won’t succeed,” he said. “His focus is just on winning. Everything else doesn’t matter.”

Petrak may be reached at spetrak@chroniclet.com or 440-329-7136.

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Left end Corey Williams battled shoulder problems all year. He had a half sack after seven sacks in 2006 and seven more in 2007 in Green Bay. He is more a 4-3 end than a 3-4 end, but Mangini will use the 3-4, so Williams will be in the same position in 2009.

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My curiosity got goin' after reading that...

I was always concerned or confused about our Ends in this 3-4 D...They appeared TOO BIG to me based on other 3-4 D's...So I took a look at the Jets since Mangini's from there...Guys that HE brought in to NY...Or at least KEPT there...

290-300 is pretty consistent for an End in almost all the 3-4 D's...

Coleman---295
Ellis---285
Devito---298
Mosley---305

Then US...

Williams---320
R Smith---310
Leonard---325
S Smith---325

I'm curious to see if these guys are either REQUIRED to get down to 300 or if we clean house up front minus Rogers...

The Jets gave up 95 Yards Rushing a game...I take that 8 days a week...We've got our Jenkins in Rogers at the Nose...And the Jets have a bunch of AVG LB's...This bears watching...NONE of our Ends are secure right now...

DiD, you also have to wonder how accurate those weights are. Ive heard Rogers weight wasnt accurate many times.

"You can shop Winslow all ya want but who will take him with the contract demands, injury issues"

I've said it before and I'll say it again. KW2 straight up for Boldin. The latest I heard is that Zona will be shopping Boldin around after the season.

I know its a long shot from happening. But I can see all being a win, win on that one.

This again would free us for PLAN B to take effect. With Boldin in (and hopefully signed with a new contract long term) now we can shop BE around. Without Boldin we can't think of shopping our biggest playmaker...with him we can. This is without a doubt our last season with BE - I don't want to lose him without compensation. We could get a late first rounder for him.

JMHO

With respect to all the football guru's on the board , this ain't Rocket science You want to win in the AFC North / you want to make the playoffs / look no further than Pit & Bal.......Real darn simple yes ??? If any coach , including Mangini can't see that , then there in the wrong Biz...

... Unfortunately for us we have been ( since 99 ) stuck with a Bind Squirrel Ownership and even worse FO that trickled down to the Coaching ..

... We have to get the talent first ... I love Mr. Rogers in the middle ( one of Savages good moves ) .. Have no Idea what Williams can bring ( injury's and scheme last season ) Not thrilled with either Smith and no real depth .
... We don't have a Reed or Troy ( in the middle ) at Safety .. Our LBing Corp is pathetic and I think the jury is still out on our young Corners ???
... Intrigued by the Ryan hire ..

Mangini was not my guy , but I will ride on the wagon and keep my fingers crossed .. I would talk trade ( draft picks ) with just about any team for just about all but a handful of Brown Players .. EM. needs picks more than anything ..

Bill B's biggest claim to fame was/is to get relatively unknowns to become very solid NFL starters and help NE to Superbowl wins. (I remember him drafting Logan Mankins and Mel Kuiper saying,"What are they doing"?!)

If Mangini picked up anything from him I'm hoping this is one of his assets coming here and he can aquire picks and hit on few hidden gems.

Although, Pioli may have played a big part in it..who knows.

I guess my statements might fit in better in the Pluto thread (Pluto not liking the tight lips way things are being ran) than questions on both sides of the ball. But in response to this article-

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Mangini cultivated an environment that kept everyone in the organization “on eggshells,” a former Jet who asked not to be identified told The Chronicle.

“If he walks past you in the hallway, he won’t acknowledge you,” the former player said. “He knows he could kick your (butt) out the door the next minute. It’s business.”

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This is the one thing I dont like about Mangini. I worked for people who couldnt look you in the eye when you walked past and for people that felt they needed their employees to be walking on eggshells. It did nothing but bring the moral down, alot of backstabbing (people digging info from you, only to go taddle tell from a regular conversation), and ALOT OF BICKERING. It might work in the NFL, but in other workplaces it brings instability and alot of unproffesionalism.

But if he wins football games thats all that matters. I dont need to like him as a person.

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Lerner wanted a coach with experience who was still in his prime. Mangini fits the bill and could follow the path of Belichick, Marv Levy, Mike Shanahan, Tony Dungy and Tom Coughlin – all of whom had much greater success in their second NFL stops.

In fact, nine of the last 11 Super Bowls have been won by coaches in their second jobs. Belichick has three of the titles.

There are also coaches who fail again when given a second shot, including Dick Jauron, Norv Turner, Wade Phillips, Dave Wannstedt and Herman Edwards.

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This answers a question for me ,,,, i've heard that Randy wanted a coach with experience cause of his research and they faired much better ... at first cause it was also what I thought I agreed .. then I talked to a friend of mine and we got in a debate over it .. and he changed my mind ....

let me state that I am glad Jeannie has previous experience .. thats about the only positive that I can hang my hat on about this hire .. and I have no probs with the hire ... none what so ever ...

one of the things me and my bud couldn't agree on was the criteria for success ... and this answered that question for me ... it must have been SB wins .. witch is kind of short sighted ... but at least its a tangible criteria ..

Like this guys says ... there are just as many (actually more) failures as there are success in there second stints ... and there are plenty of first time guys that are plenty succesful ....

look at this years playoffs for example ...

SB ........Pitt/Zona ... 1st time guys ...

Conference Championship game losers ..... Iggles/Rats .... 1st time guys ...

2nd week losers .... .../Panthers ... 1st time guys ...
Bolts/Gnats .... 2nd chance guys ....

1st week losers ... Colts .. 2nd time guy ...
Fish/Minni/Falcons ..... 1st time guys ...

so its 9 teams coached by guys in there first HC jobs and 3 teams coached by teams in there 2nd jobs ...

Now on the surface that looks alot more over whelming that it actually is ... we do not have near enough data on some of these guys to make the claim thay will be succesful ... heres a breakdown ...

Ried/Fox/Fisher .. definite success stories the first time through ... IMO Fisher is as good as any HC in the last 20 years not named Bill (that would be Walsh.Parcels and Billicheck for the history deficent dawgs reading this) ...

thats 3 unmitigated successes ..

of the other 6 ...

I think Childress STINKS .. hes HORRIBLE .. and he could get 8 tries and still STINK ..

Harbough/the dude from the Fish are very intriguing to me .. not ready to say how good I think they will be .. we'll find out over the next 3 or 4 years ... I do like the dude from the Fish's mentor and the guy that selected him ..

the dude from the Falcons I could not even venture a guess I at ...

I LOVE Wisenhunt .. I believe he will be a true success for alot of years ... and if he ends up failing in Zona it will be because of the ownership there IMO .. this guy is one hell of a HC ...

I think Tomlin will be deemd a success cause of the situation he is in .. now he may actually be a success ... but if ever anyone walked into a place to succeed that is it .. I think I like the guy though .. like his demeanor and his all business tude ..

any way ... I believe this 1st time vs 2nd time stuff is way over rated and a bunch of CRAP .. and I am not even sure how much stok Randy put into it .. cause if he truely had that high up the list of criteria .. he would not have taken the time to interview Spags or McDaniels ..

at least now the next time I talk with my bud i will have one more bullet if I decide to take that side just to break his chops ...

Diam, good post

One thing you didnt bring up, I dont know if it was brought up in your buddies discussion, is the first time HCs have assistants with experiance of also being a HC. I think that is also a successful part of the formula or criteria.

Tomlin has the best 3-4 DC EVER in Lebeau who also has HC experiance. Arians worked his way up with OC experiance.

Harbaugh has an OC with HC experiance, albeit one year in Miami.

Im not sure about everyone elses situation but Crennel had ALOT of inexperianced assistants. Some he wanted that didnt work, some that Savage brought in on his own that didnt work. Either way, all of them had no prior experiance and some have moved on to successful , but a sometimes step back, coaching gigs. Like Carthon going back to coach RBs. I dont think he had the personnel to run what he wanted but IMO his biggest downfall was that he had no clue on how to call the o-lines assignments. Things aint right if your o-line coach(Daniels) and QB(Dilfer) are arguing with the OC over o-line assignments.

Having the right HC is important. But IMO, you dont just need the right HC for the perfect criteria. Bill Cowher was known as a guy who couldnt win the big game. But the owners were smart enough to stick by him and not make a change just to make change. Would Cowher win the SB if he didnt bring back his most successful DC in Lebeau? Maybe. But maybe not. He did win alot more with Lebeau then without.

I think having the right assistants is almost as important, if not AS important, for that successful formula.

How about San Diego getting to have Ron Riveria as an LB coach!

I believe that having experience means that there will be a greater chance of success than not having it. I am ecstatic that we hired a guy that has been a head coach before and in a strange kind of way, I am glad the guy got fired. I think the ideal situation would have been to pick Mangini up a few years down the road after he had time to reflect on his first stint as coach but it just didn't turn out that way. Either way, we got a guy who can draw on past experiences to make decisions. I believe that is HUGE as long as he is willing to learn from his mistakes. And step 1 is believing that he made mistakes ... step 2 is correcting them. By all accounts, the guy is smart ... I'm hoping that includes some humility.

Add in an experienced DC, and I believe outside of Cowher or Schott, this has been the best direction for us.

Does it guarantee success? Nah. But I think we just upped the odds.

Wow,a multi-paragraph post and not one single Dolt anywhere.

I have been skeptical of this 2nd time around HC success rate since it was first brought up.
Mathematical formulas and marketing pie charts just can't be applied to human beings.Many 1st time HC's have had great success,many 2nd time coaches have had great success.
It all boils down to the people making the hire,and the people they hire.
At first I found it amazing you had a friend to argue with,but then I figured if you were buying the beer I'd sit and argue with you.

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Wow,a multi-paragraph post and not one single Dolt anywhere.

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Wow .. not sure what got into me ... will have to make sure that don't happen again ..

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At first I found it amazing you had a friend to argue with,but then I figured if you were buying the beer I'd sit and argue with you.

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*L* ..... I figured that would raise some eyebrows ..

Thats a great point about the coordinators ... that never even dawned on me being the DOLT that I am (that was for U Brownie .. now things are back to normal ... .. ) ..

I wonder how much of that went into Randy's research ....

I am glad he has experience as it can only help .. but no way is it this be all end all that played heavily into's Randies decision IMO ...

I am fine with the hire .. everyone out there not named Shannahan had MANY MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS ABOUT THEM .... and I wanted no part of the Rat with him wanting full control .. hes a GREAT COACH and a HORRIBLE ASS GROCERY SHOPPER ....

just wish I had more to hang my hat on than his experience .... and Clueless Homers that was not an invite to tell me what U all think his positives are ... I've read them all ...

"If the players behind Davis couldnt push him for playing time, why get rid of Davis but keep his backups?"

A couple of things...first off this. It could be that way - pick up AD for a season or two until something better can be gotten.

But I would ASSume again that is what Kokinis is very important on. What is AD worth compared with what is out there. If we pick somebody up...why not somebody BETTER. I expect somebody better in FA or a high pick in the draft (Curry).

"Mangini cultivated an environment that kept everyone in the organization “on eggshells,” a former Jet "

The operative word there is "FORMER" Jet. Keep in mind Mangini's lockeroom and rappoire with players was not that good overall until LAST SEASON...he learned from his mistakes and created a much different environment for the players. A FORMER PLAYER didn't have the luxery to experience the new and improved Mangini.

Diam...one thing, This SB and Playoff season was rather bizarre - I would have to say whatever happened this year would be the exception rather than the rule.

I cannot remember a worse OL getting into the SB...that's both teams.

Just a very weird playoff season if you ask me. 4 of your strongest teams were knocked off pretty early...Giants, Colts, Dallas...the 4th didn't even make the playoffs - PATS. Titans who were a top runner but obviously had some weaknesses but if there would be a team to take advantage of the funky turnout would be them...they got knocked off early too.

Just a lot of weird circumstances.

JMHO

I agree eo. Im all for replacing Davis as a starter but want to keep him as a BACKUP until something better comes along. Im thinking that if he wasnt brought back at the right price (backup pay) then not only do the Browns have to use picks or FA money on his replacement, but for the backups as well. I see alot of holes that need filled instead of bringing in 2 new ILBs.

Im just thinking that keeping him around as a backup would be better then his backups.

That was in regards to people who think that just because Davis needs upgraded, that he the Browns should just cut ties altogether. Kinda like Farrier last year. Woodley was taking over his spot, but he re-signed as a backup. I think the team will be deeper with Davis as a backup. I doubt it happens anyways. I think the new regime will just look to cut ties with old players that are FAs. Maybe besides Sean Jones. The Browns have never kept vets as backups. Rememeber when McKinnley nneded upgraded? Phil signed Robaire Smith, then didnt worry about McKinnley. He went out and signed Shaun Smith instead. If a starter needs upgraded, thats fine, get an upgrade. But if the price is right, why not bring him back as a backup. Because he is better then his own backups. Kinda like how New England has alot of vets, who use to start, as backups. But the Browns are stuck with mid to late round picks as backups who have no playing experiance when they are thrown into the fire.

I too would not mind resigning Davis. I actually really want us too. But I do have one concern... Will resigning Davis stunt Beau Bell's growth? Davis, if resigned, will get playing time, meaning Bell won't. Especially if we draft a MLB early.

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MLB Depth Chart:

1) D'Qwell Jackson
2) 2009 Draft Pick (Round 1/2) ie Clay Matthews
3) Beau Bell
4) Andra Davis
5) Leon Williams

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We don't need 5 MLB's, but I for one don't really care for Leon Williams. I think he's done progressing IMO.

Well, re-signing Davis would probabley mean that Williams or Bell dont have a job. Which I dont have a problem with if it means that the best players make the final cuts. I would like to see what Bell has to offer, because Williams didnt contribute much at all.

Id rather go into next season like this
ILB starters- Jackson, 1st or 2nd round draft pick
backups- Davis, Bell/Williams

Then like this
ILB starters-Jackson, 1st or 2nd round pick
backups- Williams, Bell

Even with a 1st round pick at ILB, he might not be ready until week 3 or later. Whose to say he signs on time (one thing Savage did well). But if Davis isnt re-signed and the rookie isnt ready by week one, is it worth Bell or Williams starting? Especially if Jackson gets hurt in preseason and the rookie aint ready. Then you have Williams and Bell starting. Thats a step back. Too many holes to fill to bring in 2 completely new ILBs.

Would they have the money to, fill other needs, bring in Crowder and draft a 1st rounder? I dont think so. Davis will be cheaper.

I don't know what anyone else thinks but felt we should have explored Williams as an OLB. Maybe he just couldn't pick up the assignments but I think physically he is well suited to be a 3-4 OLB.

I've always felt that way about Williams... Seems like he would be better as an OLB. But for whatever reason he was always running behind WR's and fast TE's....

NRTU

My thoughts always go along the lines of the talent. Take a look at successful coaches and to the last man they have talented players to work with.

We need to turn our focus in that direction IMHO. The coach is of great importance but talent trumps coaching IMO every single time. A bad coach can win with great players, but a great coach cannot win with subpar talent. Or should I say he can't win championships without good talent.

I place importance along the lines of competent coach good/great talent. But talent wins lack of talent loses. Even if most folks blame the coach I still think its the talent, reagardless if it's a 1st time coach or a 2nd, 3rd, 4th time coach. Don't get me wrong expereince always helps; talent helps more.

JMHO

BTTB

I was always concerned or confused about our Ends in this 3-4 D...They appeared TOO BIG to me based on other 3-4 D's...So I took a look at the Jets since Mangini's from there...Guys that HE brought in to NY...Or at least KEPT there...

I believe whrn Bmore was running their 34 their DE's were big..it depends on what you want to do..I would prefer the ends to be athletic and quick to get out on sideline plays..I would also think Williams is probably secure but will benefit fom being healthy and having another year in the 34 ..
Shuan if he sticks around in not a DE ..but a DT...so thats the better fit for him..Rac wanted his linmen to be play multiple positions..I don't know if EM wants that or not.

legalizewd : I agree eo. Im all for replacing Davis as a starter but want to keep him as a BACKUP until something better comes along. Im thinking that if he wasnt brought back at the right price (backup pay) then not only do the Browns have to use picks or FA money on his replacement, but for the backups as well.


The reality is if you want a backup we already have them..however we don't know what Bell has to off ,I doubt if he's cut..Davis can probably come back as a backup..but he has to be upgraded with another FA starter..we can't go into the draft needing to find a starter.

I thnk Bell is/can be a player. He needs a shot. Be interesting to see if Mangini does that, or simply discards him as "old regime."

1. Attack is right...we will get solutions to all positions done in FA not big time signings but to be able to go into the draft without "NEED" as the Number 1 variable.

2. If that means AD so be it. What I was getting at is that Kokinis is very good at one major thing. Who out there can work out BETTER than AD at the same cost. AD is a last resort solution. I think Kokinis will find us a low level maybe even backup to somebody who is a Pro-Bowler out there and couldn't crack the starting lineup??? Who will have a better upside and result. Not because Kokinis is now a BROWN...but because that is what he suppose to be the best around at...or ONE OF the best.

3. Leon...Inside, Outside - he just isn't good. The kid couldn't even start in College for crying out loud...lol Not exactly one of Savage's finer pickups.

4. Bell...we don't have a clue - obviously he has potential. How hard is he willing to work for hit??? We'll find out. If he works hard he should have a job here. If not this regime has no investment/commitment to him to be patient with him.

And first things first...he has to win a job on special teams. He was billed as a Sprecial Team STAR. I'll be happy with that first. If achieved then I think he earns more opportunity on Defense. Baby steps with him.

But we will get our starters filled before the draft. This much we learned from Savage and it seemed rational. So we got voids in ILB/OLB AD n McG...Safety Jones and I think thats it.

2nd tier? Big time Pro-Bowler? LBs...Suggs, Scott, Peppers for our OLB spot?
ILB - Lewis, Dansby,
What about Farrior and Hill (Seahawks)...also I would ASSume Mangini would want Eric Barton before AD.

Safety...I wouldn't be surprised to see Leonhard here.
Dawkins? Rodney Harrison? Mike Brown?

We will fill these through FAgency...Veterans, young guys who don't start, No names who do? Who I don't know...Will we - yes I think we will, possibly even the guy that is leaving???

JMHO

I've been thinking who they might target to replace AD..first thought is Crowder..Gini played against him twice a year..but wouldn't Gini go after Eric Barton who is a UFA and a Jet?

j/c...

About Mangini vs. other 2nd chance coaches.

One of the qualities that sticks out to me that has been emphasized is the attention to detail. Perhaps other failed 2nd time coaches have not had that attention to the smallest details.

One of Shanahan's qualities is the fact that he doesn't ignore any small detail. Mangini learned this quality from Belichick.

That 2006 Jets team had some horrible personnel. The closet was about as bare as our closet was in 2005. That carried over into 2007 with a tougher schedule and an injured Chad Pennington.

Here, Mangini inherits a roster that is somewhere between the 2007 and 2008 Jets squad...but can easily be fortified to exceed that 2008 Jets roster. Mainly, the back-end of the roster needs to be enhanced...it's the depth that wins football games in December. We can win games in September and October.

Maybe I'm being optimistic and blind here...but I think a focused training camp will have us playing more focused out of the gate. We're not where we want to be yet roster-wise...but it's not as bad as we think.

I hope.

j/c...

I really hate to start separating players by what "regime" they came in under.... I hate that that is done.