DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kokinis says team in good shape entering Combine talent search

Which one? The one where we went 9-7 and squeeked into the playoffs or the year we went 10-6 and didn't?

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Kokinis also said the Browns have not ruled out any option regarding quarterbacks Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn,


Quarterback decisions on hold
Kokinis would not tip his hand on whether he would seek to trade a quarterback or bring them both back.

"They both have pretty good talent, I know that," he said. "I think [keeping both] is well within reasonable means. There isn't really anything to say that we can't or wouldn't. I think when you're at the quarterback position and you have two guys that can help win games, I think you have to take a good look at keeping them both."

On the other hand, Kokinis said of trading one, "To me, I don't think, coming into a new situation, that you rule anything out. We're trying to take a big picture approach. I don't think any option is ruled out."

Anderson is owed a $5 million roster bonus by the 15th day of the NFL calendar year, March 13.

"When you're looking at a decision on a player, you look at every facet of the player -- talent, money, structure," Kokinis said. "You can't look at anything in a vacuum. Yes, we're talking about Derek, specifically, but really you have to fit Derek within the whole structure of the whole football team."

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Interesting comments concerning Anderson and Quinn.

I get a feeling that Mangini and Kokinis are wrestling with our QB situation just as Savage and Crennel were last season.

Is Quinn ready to be a starter and lead this team? Honestly, no one has seen enough of Quinn to answer the question.

Would it be better to keep Anderson another year, just in case Quinn does not get the job done?

At the least, Anderson would be a better backup than most teams have. If his trade value is no better than a third rounder, it might be better to keep him as our backup rather than let him go cheap.

It does seem that the new management team is faced with the same questions that faced Savage and Crennel when it comes to Anderson and Quinn.

Kokinis also said the Browns have not ruled out any option. Does that mean Kokinis and Mangini would be willing to entertain offers for Quinn as well as Anderson?

Kokinis said the Browns have not ruled out "any option"..that sure sounds like a yes, they would listen to offers for either QB.

Kids today just can't add 1 + 1

Playoffs DC... lets face it. Isn't that what it's all about ? Any player,, coach,, staff,, management,, owner,, will say, if you don't make the playoffs,, it's a losing season..

I'm more of a skeptic.. I believe that he said exactly what you would expect him to say as long as both guys are on the roster... I have to believe in my heart of hearts that they are definitely leaning one way or the other and have a Plan A and a Plan B... with Plan A being a trade...

I think having 2 qbs on the roster that can win games is important, the problem is that until one of them establishes themselves as the long term answer, they will always be looking over their shoulder and the fans will be ansy at the first sign of struggling... so I don't think either one of them will really feel the freedom to go out and play the game in a relaxed fashion while the other is on the bench...

This isn't Joe Montana and Steve Young where the starter is a seasoned vet with multiple pro-bowls and super bowls and a firm hold on the job while the young guy waits his turn... this is two relatively unproven young guys (both with potential) but both susceptible to the nerves that can come along with facing potential boos every week for just one bad performance from a fan base with a hair trigger...

In short, I don't think either of these guys is going to begin to realize their potential until they can stop looking over their shoulder... IMHO.

I am not saying anything about your opinions on the hire and weather it was good or bad .. i am just stricly sayin gthat WE have NO IDEA if jeannie is ging to be a dictator or not .. and what has happend so far may be an indication he is or there may be OTHER REASONS FOR THEM ..

we do not know at this point .. i said your basing it off of how he was a dictator in NY (although that was not true in personal moves .. the new GM was a dictator his last year there .. ) ...

I will let my feelings known in depth on the hiring shortly .... U should all ready have a good idea ... but i will go in depth shortly ..

as for what happend in NY ... I have NO CLUE what happend there .. but I do know one thing ... HE DID CHANGE HOW HE HANDLED AND WHAT HE DID WITH THE PLAYERS ... every player who has talked has said that the differnce in how everything was run and how Jeannie treated them was night and day from years 1 and 2 to year 3 ...

does that mean he will change everything .. NOPE .. but it does prove that he is CAPABLE OF CHANGE ....

we'll see .... I said u have a chance to be right .. it may be him being a dictator ..

DC .... I come across sounding like were going to be way behind .. and running around like chickens with our heads cut off when it comes to FA and the draft ... well thats now what i mean ... when i first brought this up 4 weeks ago here is what i said .... ... IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD .. BUT WE WILL BE BEHIND 29 OR 30 OF THE OTHER TEAMS .... its just as easy a transition as some are/were making it out to be ... by the nature of the regime change WE WILL BE BEHIND ...

and I was then promptly BLASTED like i was some idiot with a dumb ass point ...

failure?? define failure how u mean it in this aspect ... cause if u do not give them a "pass" on this years draft and FA then your not being fair to them .. and I know there all NFL people .. but Coke is in a BRAND NEW POSITION workin dwith PEOPLE HE DOES NOT KNOW FROM ADAM ... its not as simple as they all ready know the players cause its all they do ...

well they do alot of this IN JAN AND FEB after there seasons are over ... they keep tabs on things during the year .. but they do the BULK OF SCOUTING FOR THERE SYSTEMS AND how they fit in jan and Feb ... well when EVERYONE ELSE was doing that ... we didn't have our guys EVEN HIRED YET ... couple that with the fact that they have to do all the follwoing things the others do not have to ...

1. assemble there staffs .. coaching and scouting ..
2. figure out what schemes they will run ...
3. EVALUATE IN DEPTH EVERY PLAYER OF THEIR ROSTER ..
4. get to know there newly assembled staffs ...

thats not as easy as U guys want to make it out to be ... and u said it youself .. NEXT YEAR THEY they will be more knowledgable and comfie with everyone and everything ...

and every regime change in the NFL has gone through the same EXACT THINGS ... its just the way it is ..

and U want a great example .. u said these guys are all in the league and have a good working knowledge of everyone on all the teams .. than why are they doing such and IN DEPTH ANALYSIS of the guys on our team??? ... cause believe me .. if were considering gys in FA or drafting them .. were going to want just as IN DEPTH ANALYSIS of them as we do our guys ....

so if these guys have suck a great working knowledge of everyone .. why is this taking so long and why is it so important ..

U guys can debate and argue until your blue in the face .. EVERY GM AND HC change puts EVERY TEAM THAT DOES THEM behind the 8 ball in year 1 .. its just a FACT OF REGIME CHANGES and the fact theres only 24 hours in a day and U just can't get done everything u need to ..

I actually don't think the comments are very interesting at all. To me it is a standard non-committal answer that you should expect from a GM/Coach on that topic at this stage of the offseason.

I think it is just him answering the question without saying anything at all.

U just summed it up for me ...

the question is are they or are they not prepared to do what needs done based on the time they've had to prepare... I would think that for the most part they should be as ready as can be expected.

and next year .. I EXPECT them to be much BETTER PREPARED because they will have MORE TIME and be MORE EDUCATED on who we have, what we need and the scouts will know more of what there suppose to be looking for ...

I do not believe were as far off in our views on this as our posts sound ..

I've yet to see a coach say that they had a "losing" season by not making the playoffs. Did New England have a losing season this year?

So, when the Browns went 8-8 and made the playoffs because the division sucked and then lost their first playoff game....that was a winning season?

Sorry, you are way off on that. The whole point isn't the playoffs, it's winning the Super Bowl. So, if we follow your logic, only one team a year has a winning season. You are defining a wining season by whether or not certainl goals were achieved. To have a winning season, you win more games than you lose.

So, you think that the Patiriots had a losing season?

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I do not believe were as far off in our views on this as our posts sound ..

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I don't believe we are either...

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and next year .. I EXPECT them to be much BETTER PREPARED because they will have MORE TIME and be MORE EDUCATED on who we have, what we need and the scouts will know more of what there suppose to be looking for ...

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I completely agree.... Just to clarify, I never said they know all about the Browns players.. I said they are familiar with the draft class and they are familiar with the FA market.. just as they would have been if they were still with their old teams.. what I said (or what I meant if I didn't say it) was the area where they need to cram and study hard is in the Browns needs and how the draft class and FA market can help...

And yes, by this time next year they will have gone through a full season with our roster and will have a much better understanding of each players strengths and weaknesses.... you can get a lot from film but not everything... and that difference is what they will learn in the upcoming year...

My point was that I don't expect any horrendous errors.. I don't expect them to draft Mike Junkin in the first round with Curry and Brown on the board and then blame it on the fact that they didn't have enough time to prepare.... I don't expect them to trade Shawn Rogers for Gerard Warren and blame it on the fact that they just didn't know... I expect them to make sound football moves that even most of us lay people can understand and if anything, I would expect them to be fairly conservative and not take any big risks, knowing what they don't know.

At this point I am absolutely clueless ( no smart ass comments ) .. Need to wait and see FA / Draft and at least a couple of preseason games ... ..

"cause its pretty logical that there at the same place in less than a month compared to teams that have had there structures"

Just a note or two.

1. Structure pretty much stayed the same...Kokinis stated this as a plus with the similarities of Savage and himself...the structure will not vary too much.

2. Most of the Staff/Scouts have remained...there was not this upheaval and big overhaul.

3. Catching up was more regarding their end of season evaluations of our team...that is where we fell behind other teams as after the season was done other teams would have made their grades and assesss the team as individuals.

We had to catch up there most of all.

I think when Kokinis states we have caught up it is in the sense that they have finished their team evaluations and have their FAgency/Pro evaluations pretty well organized and are now on track with where they should be for the draft coming into the Combine.

Or would that be too much common sense

Nope, not too much common sense and not all that far from what we were saying.. the area where other teams are ahead is that their team evaluations are based on watching the players all year and in practice and in knowing their personalities... our team evaluations are simply based on film study and maybe a quick interview... It's not that we are behind where we should be, we can be right where we need to be but it's not going to be as good as if this regime had watched them in person all year.

On Jim Rome is Burning Derrik Ward said that he thought there were a few teams out there that are in need of a running back and specifically mentioned Cleveland as a team that is in need of a running back and a place he would be interested in. Anyone thinks he knows something different and also I thought it was interesting to see our perception from outside of Cleveland.

Yeah, I saw that too. I would like to sign him, I think he'd be a good addition. He's 28, but only has about 350 career carries so his legs should be fresh. He has good size and good hands, and was productive with the Giants. Adding Derrick Ward, along with an upgrade to one or two positions on the o-line, would make me very happy.

Well we do have coaches that are hold overs that can provide valuable information. So it is not like they are starting form scratch with zero information on that front. Film and an interview here or there is not ALL we have...

Granted there is still a learning curve...but we have one guy that has been studying us from an outside prospective CLOSELY.... and we have coaches on the coaching staff that have the inside perspective...I really don't think we are as far behind as people imagine...And while Mangini and company are going over game tape....they are also going over practice tape...so its not like the only perspective outside of the games they will have is from the hold over coaches...

He's talking about football..

Not sure how to take your comment.....hmmmm


Really, we might be ahead...I am sure we have gone tooth and nail over things.....many teams might just give it a brush over because that are familiar.

Teams weren't spending 4-5-6 hours a day reviewing play for several weeks....they had seen it firsthand.

While we may not know about matters of the heart, on film, we could very well know as much about our team as others do about theirs.

Kokinis says the team is in good shape entering Combine talent search.

I have a point let me try to remember some recent past. Joe Andruzi, and Cozy Colman were going to solidify the offensive line, free agents this time of year, and not a whole lot of return on investment in my opinion.

LeCharles Bentley, sadly because of injury not alot of return, free agent, even back when it was Verba and Tucker, the return didn't provide an instant boost, maybe more of a long term growth before return on investment.
Not just the offensive line, ok, Garcia, and Dilfer, didn't put the Browns over the hump just solid play, Antonio Bryant, Dante Stalworth, Joe Jurevicious, even though sufficient, no instant jolts to team success, JJ may be debatable. Jamal Lewis, a couple of strong seasons, but for his career not his top two seasons. Sean Rogers, Corey Williams, Rogers makes the pro bowl, the one bright spot, Williams more of the same, solid, not bad.

The point is the free agents that might join may follow a tendency to not instantly propell the Browns to the top of the AFC North in 09. In fact I laugh at the statement. The "party line" each year is to get excited about these signings, as fans, but If I'm going to have hope for the future, it is going to need to come from the draft. I have no idea what the team is going to do, but I'm saying this before I know of any signings big name or small, so as a rule I have more hope in the draft than the free agents, exclusive to THIS YEAR and where the team is Now. I just look at the team and think some young faces with alot to prove, original Browns, could really catch fire and bring hope to the future. In 2000, 01 the situation was different, they needed veteran leadership in my opionion.
They didn't have any real chances for a whole draft last year, because after round 3 its not a sure thing you are getting folks who can make the team, Historically.
I'll come back to this . The point, is the pattern above.

I want to highlight some evolutions of the roster at runningback, for 07, 08, they pretty much have had Lewis, Wright, and Harrisson, Lewis a free agent former first rounder, Harrisson a 5th rounder, and Wright an un drafter free agent. 10-6 in 07, 4-12 in 08

in 2001 the last playoff appearance, The Browns had William Green, Jamel White, and maybe James Jackson, ( I may be wrong, memory). Green was 1st round Browns, JJ, was 3rd round Browns, and Jamel White, was later rounds at best. They made the playoffs had a lead on the Steelers by 17 points thanks to their recievers, couldn't run out the clock not a win.

In 1994 they had Leroy Hoard, a browns draft pick if memory serves me right, not 1st round, Tommy Vardell, 1st round pick Eric Metcalf, 1st round pick also of the Browns. They also had a stellar group of recievers, with Micheal Jackson, Andre Rison, Derrick Alexander, and Keenan McCardell coming off the bench. This is the Browns last playoff win, they beat the patriots, I think the game was in Cleveland.

This plus my above post is trying to make a point, that developing draft picks has worked in the past. I wonder if it is going to be possible for them to assemble a group comparable to the 94 team anytime in the future.

We have a new regime that agrees with you. They want to build through the draft...but they don't have many draft picks. I'm certain that they want to prove their worth so they are going to have to make some roster moves. FA and draft helped us to 10&6 (LT, LG especially)...plus the weaker schedule. We're playing a last place team's schedule this year. I'm betting the new regime wants to take advantage of this year's opportunity.

Until Savage came we had no Draft foundation what so ever.

We had the cap room (and Savage created more by ridding the contracts of CB and Warren) and a tremendous VOID of talent. It was not by Choice of policy on how to build a team that we had to go into the FA market for Impact players.

It was a matter of survival. Again thanks to Clark and Butch for setting this franchise back and almost going no where out of Expansion to a competitive team.

OL... 99-04 we took Faine 1st round...an undersize Center in an offense that was being built on a Power Base In Line Blocking Scheme.

We took Fowler 3rd round...a Center before Faine - actually Zierlien liked Fowler and Butch did not. So we didn't use him at all.

The rest were all 6th n 7th round picks. Shot in the darks.

That was it.

So we had a void that Savage had to rectify so that the Offense would have some chance to progress. So that a young QB would have some chance to develop. So that a RB could actually go over the 1,000 mark not a big deal but something we couldn't do 99-04.

Shaffer, Bentley (a real shame), ESteinbach (who we could have drafted instead of Faine), Fraley (out of desperation after Bentley's injury.)
We draft Sowells 4th round (close to the shot in the dark range) and finally we drafted Joe Thomas which was a big time move for the offense and finally made it a possibility to have a functional OL.

DL...In a 4-3 Defense the most important UNIT of the D...these are the Impact guys for a 4-3 D. One investment of note in the draft - CB...who after his fine rookie season spent season after season on the IR. Warren Butch's contribution. World of talent but a tremendous Under achiever.

So in the 99-04 with approximately 55 draft picks - We invested 4 picks into the LOS Foundation of the draft. And None of them took hold.

Just a tremendous VOID.

Because of the accelerating economics of the Cap (all teams got an extra 20 mil of cap room - which caused contracts to go up) we made what seemed to be high OL investments but now don't seem too bad.

Shaffer...Serviceable and now his contract isn't that bad.
ES big time investment but he's been on the cusp of Pro-Bowl status.
JoeT - finally an Overall #3 pick who has been worth every penny....and the guy we pick this year at #5 will cost around the same.

But we could not build just by the draft.

We have 8 legitimate NFL starters on our team from the 05-08 drafts.
We have a more solid OL from the FA investments made...not 2nd tier nobodies.

We have Corey Williams and Rogers to show for the draft of 08.

Both Young enough to be here as impact players for the duration of their long term contracts.

In 09 the fact is we only have 4 picks...but lets face it - impact is mostly gotten from the first two rounds. We will be losing what we could have gotten in the 3rd, 5th and 7th rounds.

But we have to utilize the FA Market with any upgrades that we can produce.

Also we have 3 starting Voids on the Defense - AD, McG and Jones possibly leaving due to FAgency.

We could fill them with In house - re-sign Adams for Safety? or more probable Leonhart a 2nd tier FA with ties to Kokinis...possibly both.

ILB - Bell? Who knows what he will be?
OLB - Hall? Still very Raw.

So we can expect some investments in FAgency before the draft.

Key will be what kind of trades we can pull of expecially DA.

Two others are remotely possible in KW2 and BE but highly Unlikely.

It would be nice to get another Top 60 pick and come away with 3 Impact rookies instead of the usual 2. The 3rd n 5th rounds we will miss that opportunity of a shot in the dark rookie. Once again hoping we could pull out a winner from the 10-15 8th round picks we will have

JMHO

To follow up on what you're saying, tab...

I'd like to know how much input Mangini had on the Jets' past three drafts. Afterall, Tannenbaum came from the business side, even though he does have the Parcells upbringing.

Looking back, they seem very solid. If ManKok are on the same page, we should be in good shape.

U guys just don't get it or won't admit it ... its not this minor thing that has set us slightly back and is no big deal .. its not the end of the world .. but u guys just want to seem to say its not really that big a deal ... and thats just not true .... every single time theres been mass changes like we had those org.s were behind the 8 ball and at a disadvantage compared to the teams that didn't ...

and that makes sense and is logical .. why U guys can't see it or admit that its not just this minor little thing is beyond me .. go ahead and keep kidding yourselves into thinking were on a level playing field and will not be at a dis advantage come FA and the draft ..

U talk about the structure staying the same tabber ... sure the structure has in that we prolly have just about the same flow chart ... but the PIECES in the flow chart have changed ...

to say the structures the same after CHOPPING OFF THE HEAD of the top of both sides of the flow chart is technically true ... the structure is the same .. we just have DIFFERENT HEADS at the top of the charts .. well actually we have NO HEADS right now .. my guess is Coke is heading the pro side ... and your guess is as good as mine whos running the draft side ..

THATS A MAJOR CHANGE ... also we fired 2 - 4 scouts or personal folks ... how big is this department ... what % of the department is ENTIRELY NEW or just SHORT?? ...

let me guess .. your going to say that letting Coke do it this year is simply STREAMLINING things ... *L* ..

were going to make do and do the best we can .. and thats going to have to be good enough as its all we can do .. BUT NEXT YEAR when we have ALL THE PIECES IN PLACE ... and our staff and GM KNOW OUR PERSONAL we will be LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF THIS YEAR ...

like I said its not the end of the world ... but its also not this minor little thing like a scratch on your arm that most of u are playing it off to be ...

I'm done here .. U guys can kid yoursleves and make yourselves feel as good as u like ... denial is a wonderful thing ..

I like that you think they're wrong given your track record this past year.

We might be at a disadvantage because we aren't good and need more players than we can get this year, but again, I disagree...

The fact Gini and Kok haven't been working together for a year doesn't precluse them being able to make good decisions.

Like I said earlier, they didn't just wake up to find there is a FA period and a annual college draft.

Sure...they may not have been up to speed on our roster, but it doesn't take months and months to grade tapes on players. They have already tossed out some deadwood.

I do agree....they won't have any idea about the intangibles, but there is no way around that....so if that is what you are harping about.....ok, I see your point....but don't view that as putting us far behind.

What exactly is it we will be behind on??

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I get a feeling that Mangini and Kokinis are wrestling with our QB situation just as Savage and Crennel were last season.

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I get the feeling they just don't want to tip their hands yet. I haven't been paying close attention to this point but I don't believe they have been very open about anything.

I agree....though I do think they wished they had a bit more tape on BQ to help make a better informed decision.

There is some chatter Tampa bay is interested and Detroit is interested.

Why would U keep him if it weren't for cap ramifications and human emotions ...

why would he help our team ... what does he bring to the table to help us ..

Peenie .. ... i said i was done .. but u asked a question .. so i will answer it ..

we will be behind in each of the following "categories" .. and in each category to varying degrees ... some minor amounts .. but others in decent amounts ..

1. Knowledge of our entire team .. and in every area ... skill set, intagibles, SMARTS, how they fit into our system ...

2. GM - HC relationship and every other RELATIONSHIP in the food chain .. Jeannie to his cordinators .. coordinators to the specific unit coaches .... coaches to scouts ..

we have NO WORKING KNOWLEDGE of each other in any of the areas that are IMPORTANT ....

3. DETAILED knowledge of the FA's and how they may fit into our chemes and what we will hope to do and how they will fit in with the EXISTING PLAYERS ...

4. detailed knowledge of 2nd day picks and UNDRAFTED FA'S ... see above for specifics ... I believe we'll be OK with the day 1 stuff ...

this is how ALL TRANSITIONS of this nature go .. its just how it works ... I'm not upset about it ... it is what it is .. I'm not just going to bury my head in the sand and act like its business as usual and were up to speed ..

we have no director of pro or college personal departments ... we are short 2 - 4 scouts ... we have a new GM .. and new HC .. an entirely new coaching staff (is there any leftovers??) ...

theres lots GOING ON ... and were SHORT STAFFED .. and those that we do have have never worked with there co-workers in these jobs .... new systems on O and D ... like i said .. theres lots going on ...

and peenie .. there not just watcihng 30 minutes of tape on each guy on our team ... there watching game tape, practice tape, TC tape ... tape from 07 for thise its available for ... I'd venture to guess (and its just a GUESS) ... that were watching at least 4 or 5 of tape on each guy ... and thats JUST ON OUR TEAM .. while at the same time doing the FA guys, ... doing the draft stuff ... while IMPLEMENTING SYSTEMS and getting to know each other .. and OH BY THE WAY ... is the entire coaching staff assembled yet?? ...

lots going on dude ...

but Ya ... its all good and were all caught up ...

Says towards the end of this article that Kokinis will be holding a news conference at the combine.