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I agree. I don't think that Palmer was given a fair shake. 2 lousy years with an expansion team and shown the door  Butch, I didn't like. Was glad to see him go...but he said one thing that made sence - "Until we fix the OL, nothing will change". I firmly believe that our total offensive ineptness is in direct relation to the poor quality of the OL...and we've lost players and coaches because of it.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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LOL......that is your interpretation, but mine is quite different.
What I was implying is that firing coaches is not cure. I would have preferred the Browns actually stick w/a scheme and their coaches and upgrade the talent.
I knew that. That is why I added the right or wrong comment to keep Savage in the sights....letting it be know he isn't off the hook.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
I agree.
I don't think that Palmer was given a fair shake. 2 lousy years with an expansion team and shown the door
Butch, I didn't like. Was glad to see him go...but he said one thing that made sence - "Until we fix the OL, nothing will change". I firmly believe that our total offensive ineptness is in direct relation to the poor quality of the OL...and we've lost players and coaches because of it.
I don't know that it was the previous coaches as much as it was the Braintrust back then... BLOWING Damned near EVERY DP in 1999 is just SICKENING.. Nothing to cultivate for a new franchise and of course the responsible party left before things came to a head... Really is SICKENING how set back this team is...
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What name did I call you? You need to unbunch your shorts man,,,,
Your a bit to tense,,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And the funniest part of it all, I was replying to Peen and singled no one out by name except by referring to them as a dolt... Guess Demonshot felt that shoe was the perfect fit LMFAO!!
Ahh, I think you need to go check your facts,,, I was replying to you and your comment about Dolts,,,,, If your gonna say something like that, be correct,,, or don't say it
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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What name did I call you? You need to unbunch your shorts man,,,,
You are the one who freaked out earlier in the thread on 44.
44 responded to that and said you had sensitivity issues. You repsonded by saying I wasn't right from childhood on and then said he was calling you names. Calling someone sensitive is worse than saying someone hasn't been right since childhood? Okie dokie.
I will tell you this..........Before you and a few others abandoned the official board, there was no fighting on this board. People discussed football. This BS did not exist.
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Your a bit to tense,,,,
You work w/the wealthy, huh? Hope you don't have to communicate w/the written word.
It would be........You're . A contraction for You are. And it should be too, not to.  
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Okay, now I'm starting to miss the other board.... well, not really. But in all of this bickering back and forth, we're missing one frightening fact: Something really strange is going on within this organization and those in the know are jumping ship! Why? And what effect will this have on our beloved team?
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Usually the problem lies in the common denominator. 
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I'm not to good at guzintas (math)
What's the common denominator?
Romeo or Mr. Lerner?
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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And grammar smack is extremely weak. Daman's right, your shorts are in a bunch. What's the matter? All the women leave that island you're on?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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But in all of this bickering back and forth, we're missing one frightening fact: Something really strange is going on within this organization and those in the know are jumping ship! Why?
It's because of this that I've almost already given up hope for next year.
We are so dysfunctional, it's not even funny.
We need a good draft, a good FA period, and some real breakthroughs on the coaching staff next year to even be competitive.
I'm already starting to worry about guys like Winslow and Wimbley getting out of town as soon as they are able to.
If I was player who played for an organization as dysfunctional as ours, I'd want to leave.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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You are not alone bro... not in the least bit...
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i'm gonna throw an idea out here....
all this talk about coaches leaving and being canned...i think many are reading too much into it...
this team sucked last year....mostly on offense
now many have said that rac should have been canned....i disagree to the extent that i don't want to be like cinci (coaching carosel)...i want the talent here and i think that solves the problem....
i'm thinking that rac made one mistake.....i think he put too much time into the defense....now i know he's the head coach, and he's responsible for the whole deal....
but what if he went to his offensive coaches....and said hey...i'm installing a new d and i'm gonna have to put alot of time into getting it established....i could easily see him telling mo to get in done on o....do what you have to....
now we've heard of the power struggle between mo/davison...and we saw all the issues with k2 and edwards...
its entirely possible that that entire facet of the org. just failed to get on the same page and work together...in other words they let rac down....
hence the house cleaning....
there is no doubt in my mind rac didn't get all of his first choices as coaches....tons of guys weren't available when he got here....he stuck with these guys for 2 years....some say he sold them down the river....when it could just as easily be construed as giving them a fair shot...(and i know it wasen't totally fair) but something had to give...especially if better coaches become available...
and the stupid thing in all this is we don't need a new system....we need players to execute...if the oc can pick from 100 plays he knows his team can run then it makes it hard to guess....
as it stands with us our oc's were constantly trying to mask a ton of weaknesses, and that lessens our options, and we become predicable....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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j/c, I posted this in another thread in response to vers and the topic of rotating coaches. Not to beat a dead horse but since we are on this topic again I felt it was necessary.
I dont like the reloading of coaches as much as you but again you still didnt say who you would have wanted to keep. You cant say that Chris Palmer was a good coach since hes been floating around as a coordinator and an assistant since. Davis had his chance, he got us to the playoffs with his guys and then gave us two losing seasons and hasnt been heard from since. So then that brings us to RAC. Savage thought so little of the talent on this team that he gutted it. So which of the two previous coaches would you have liked to keep?
Lets look at the first two rounds since 99
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1 Couch (out of football)
2 Kevin Johnson (out of football)
00
1Courtney Brown (constantly injured hasnt finished a full season since his rookie season, didnt play a game in 06)
2 Dennis Northcutt (is being let go in FA, was decent for us over the years but has gone down hill the past two years and become nothing more than a punt returner)
01
1Gerrard Warren ( Phil got rid of him because of ego issues and never panned out ot what we invisioned had 30 tackles and 2.5 sacks this season)
2Quincy Morgan (is now on his 4th team, was picked up by the broncos. Had 0 receiving stats and is merely a kick returner)
02
1William Green (out of football)
2Andre Davis ( had 2 receptions in 16 games and 6 Kick returns)
03
1Jeff Faine (We all know about this one)
2Chaun Thompson (backup MLB)
While teams are drafting future stars we draft kick returners and guys who dont make in the NFL for more than 5 years. Policy was drafting for the first 2 years and Butch for the next 4. So again I ask who do we keep? The past two regimes were able to bring in their guys and their guys we so bad that most of them are nothings for other teams. Im not saying that I like all this change, I would love nothing more then to see this team succeed but if somethings not working its not working. Consistant coaches isnt whats holding this team back, its lack of talent from poor drafting with guys that arent good coaches.
![[Linked Image from img507.imageshack.us]](http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/171/sigyg0.png)
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The one thing I have to say is that now that Phil knows what he's working with, it seems like he's drafting pretty well.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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When you are 26th and 31st in offense for the past two years, changes in coaching will happen.
When you are 26th and 31st in offense, for the past two years, changes in players will happen.
All the hype about Winslow and Edwards making a difference fizzled like a warm soda on a hot day.
Lerner also has a responsibility to the fans. Status Quo is probably not an option.
Defensively, where the Browns have played reasonably well, few changes have occured.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Just clickin'
Here's a thought I have and I wonder what anyone else thinks:
Do these coaching changes reflect a confidence in RAC? By this I mean, what if Romeo fails to get the job done this year, will he get another year with his new OC? If he's dumped and we go after another HC, can Chud take that position? Would he even be offered the job? If you hire someone from outside the organization, wouldn't the new HC want to change things on his staff?
I understand that these questions may seem odd or off, but we didn't hire an OC that it would seem to have a resume` that would suggest he's a year or two away from being a HC.
It looks to me that the organization is sold on RAC for a longer term than just "another year" Good or bad right or wrong I am not sure. Perhaps all the news reports that I heard\read about the organization lighting a fire under RAC was about forcing a better coaching staff and accountability and not "changing the guard"
Lastly, all this coaching carousel will not mean anything without acquiring talent for them to work with.
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I think the expectations are clear.
win more games.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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But in all of this bickering back and forth
Alot of the bickering involves one poster in particular. Hence the common denominator.
Without calling them out by name it seems that they are consistantly negative about the whole organization and force their negativity on the other posters on the board.
It seems to often rub people the wrong way.
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More WINS! Please!
But, i think the coaching turnover is not a bad thing. It happens, if you dont get things done, you dont stay. All the guys we have are NFL players, Obviously our FO felt they werent getting the job done. Im fine there.
About Rosburg leaving? Oh well. He was good yes, but, if he doesnt want to be here. Then let him go. We've gone nowhere and we've squandered good ST play for years, why wouldnt he want out?
If Davidson or Scherer leave, fine. Im not sold on either of them. Our QB and OL play have been less than stellar anyway. I'd be willing to give Scherer a stay of execution, but I wouldve rather had someone instead of him in the first place, because we need someone whos played QB before.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
Quote:
But in all of this bickering back and forth
Alot of the bickering involves one poster in particular. Hence the common denominator.
Without calling them out by name it seems that they are consistantly negative about the whole organization and force their negativity on the other posters on the board.
It seems to often rub people the wrong way.
Actually, that's not the problem.
It's ok to be negative and express your opinion that way. This is a message board with lots of people with differing personalities and opinions. It's also ok to try to convince people you are right to be negative.
The problem is the tone that a few of the posters like to take with others when they disagree with what someone has to say. There is a lack of respect here by some, not most. Instead of just saying 'I disagree', the words and tone being used provoke a confrontation.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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If I was player who played for an organization as dysfunctional as ours, I'd want to leave.
Well, now you've done it. Unfortunately, since it hasn't been printed in a major media publication, I cannot back it up officially but I have heard very concerning things about what is being said by some of the players behind closed doors. And you just nailed it. Although, I think Winslow will be happy to have Chud here and maybe that's part of the reason Phil brought him in. But truth or not, I think there is reason to have a genuine concern regarding the overall morale in this organization and it goes all the way up through the highest ranks of the FO. I don't know if this will get deleted or not for lack of proof but I don't think that the coaches leaving has anything to do with our on-field peformance. I think it goes way deeper than that. I hope I'm wrong.
Follow me on Twitter <a href="link" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/CoachA12</a>
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I don't know if this will get deleted or not for lack of proof but I don't think that the coaches leaving has anything to do with our on-field peformance. I think it goes way deeper than that. I hope I'm wrong.
Your post shouldn't get deleted. You are posting an opinion like the rest of us. If you said, "I heard Daven Holly tell Ralph Brown's cousin that he hopes he gets released so he can sign with a 'good team'."... that would get deleted.
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Well, it's an opinion based on hearsay to be quite honest. But I think it's a valid one nonetheless.
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UMMPH..Only thing it sounds like to me is like putting 5 little kids in one room with one yo-yo and a toy car..they all start fighting about who's toy it is..
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What are you referring to AttackDawg? If it's all the bickering, then yes, it does remind me of childish behavior which the new board over at the official site is chock full of. Hence my return.
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DUH..I'm talking about the internal mess of the Browns.. But now that U mentioned the official sites new message board, thats about as logical as the Cavs board..NOT! Sure U won't miss it? 
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/24/07 04:43 PM.
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j/c, I posted this in another thread in response to vers and the topic of rotating coaches. Not to beat a dead horse but since we are on this topic again I felt it was necessary.
I dont like the reloading of coaches as much as you but again you still didnt say who you would have wanted to keep.
I am saying that changing coaches almost every year is a mistake. And I'm not just talking about head coaches.
How many coaches have we lost this year?
Didn't all the positive posters tell us that we would become stable under Junior's latest regime? Where is the stability?
I contend that the coaches didn't receive a fair shake. I am NOT saying they are great coaches. Truth is, for the most part, I don't know what kind of coaches they are. I do know that the offense had many problems and that firing coaches won't fix them.
---The OL lacks talent. They lack continuity. It's hard to do anything on offense if your OL is weak. Ours was weak and will probably be weak again next year.
---The QB is inexperienced. Many think he sucks. I wanna give him more time, but I am in the minority. I do recognize he has problems. Accuracy, decision making, and lack of experience are among them. Does that lend itself to having a powerful offense?
---Our RB position is very weak. We don't have a feature back and the depth is extremely suspect. How can they help an inexperienced QB? Can we hang our hat on the running game?
---K2 and Leon have been known to run incorrect routes. Leon is a cancer in the locker room and K2 isn't well liked. Leon doesnt' even know where to line up sometimes. He doesn't fight for inside position or the ball. He rounds his routes off. And these guys are the best we got. I will concede that their lack of experience is a factor in this......but, with that said........how could we rely on them this year?
My point is that it is unfair to lay the blame at the feet of the coaching staff. I don't care who was here............we could have had all HOF coaches and the offense still would have struggled.
So......how does firing or losing coaches help? Will the problems be magically cured? Or, did it buy the powers that be more time? Will they buy even more time when they fire RAC next year?
Savage chose to build the team from the outside-in. His choice. No one else is to blame. Where are the young offensive and defensive linemen to build around? Where did we rank at running the ball, protecting the passer, and defending the run this year? How will that improve by firing and losing coaches?
I say......it won't improve. It won't improve until we build the team in a logical manner. Build the trenches.......the wins will come. Firing coaches is window dressing and the problems w/the foundation will remain. I will give Savage credit for drafting two front seven players in the first two rds. this past season. He also brought in a young Pro Bowl o-lineman. It's not his fault the guy got hurt. But, he has taken too many wide receivers and secondary guys early in the draft. We are feeling the effects of that now. And the blame goes to the coaches. That's crap! I honestly feel that we will continue to struggle until we fortify both lines.
Some get upset because I rub them wrong way w/my negativity. I feel like I'm being real. Time has proven that I am correct. Get upset w/me if you will, but saying the Browns are on the right track won't make it so. Improving the foundation of the team and improving team chemistry is the answer. As of today..........we may have a new coaching staff, but the problems remain the same!
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I sure dont miss it. The place got pitiful
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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jc Thought this was interesting, thought he wanted to stay in Ohio. Dolphins | Robiskie named wide receivers coach Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:14:49 -0800 MiamiDolphins.com reports the Miami Dolphins have named Terry Robiskie their wide receivers coach. www.kffl.comI wonder why he didnt get hired by the Bengals?
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I thought the Bengals already hired him.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Vers Im going to ask this because I believe its the case and from what Ive read from you Im not sure you do.
Let just for the moment assume that Mo was a problem and needed to be let go. I know you may not agree and Im not going to hold you to any of that part at all so you dont have to disagree with me on this point.
Now Mo is gone. I feel those that were also let go (excluding the S&C coach) were all MO supporters. I also believe that perhaps Robo was a big Mo supporter and that some of those that were let go may have also been Robo supporters. In this case they become a bigger cancer then BE was.
I believe that is why they were released. It wasnt as much of a well we fired some guys the fans and media got the blood they wanted but was actually to stablise the team going forward.
Davidson is gone as well so now we have all of the former parts to the conflict gone and the new coaches have only one mission to have success. I understand you dont feel the old coaches were given a fair shot but I think it was more of a melt down among all of them and the firings was actaully the only way forward for the team instead of seeing it as step back.
Do you really think they just let those other guys go to let them go or could it be something between what Ive stated here and what your saying?
And remember its the negitive line that keeps things grounded.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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I wonder why he didnt get hired by the Bengals? Doesn't have any current arrest charges.. maybe?
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He showed up sober for the interview, and was doomed from the start
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I got your PM. Saying I'm bitching and moaning isn't exactly a way to get me to reply to you, but I will anyway. Quote:
now many have said that rac should have been canned....i disagree to the extent that i don't want to be like cinci (coaching carosel)...i want the talent here and i think that solves the problem....
The Bengals have a lot more stability on their coaching staff than the Browns. I don't get the comparison.
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i'm thinking that rac made one mistake.....i think he put too much time into the defense....now i know he's the head coach, and he's responsible for the whole deal....
but what if he went to his offensive coaches....and said hey...i'm installing a new d and i'm gonna have to put alot of time into getting it established....i could easily see him telling mo to get in done on o....do what you have to....
I've never seen one word of that reported anywhere. Where are you coming up w/this? Is it simply because he was a DC before coming here, or did I miss something?
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now we've heard of the power struggle between mo/davison...and we saw all the issues with k2 and edwards...
its entirely possible that that entire facet of the org. just failed to get on the same page and work together...in other words they let rac down....
hence the house cleaning....
I don't feel it was a coaching problem. I feel it was a talent problem. I already have explained that. You know.........a reply to one poster can cover points to multiple posters.
I'm still waiting for someone to address where I was wrong in my assessment of the problems on offense.
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there is no doubt in my mind rac didn't get all of his first choices as coaches....tons of guys weren't available when he got here....he stuck with these guys for 2 years....some say he sold them down the river....when it could just as easily be construed as giving them a fair shot...(and i know it wasen't totally fair) but something had to give...especially if better coaches become available...
Who would be at fault here? And do you really think RAC picked the coaching staff all by his lonesome? Man, we view what's happening in much different terms. I think Savage has called--and will call--almost all the shots. I think he gets feedback from everyone, but in the end.......it's his decision. I see that a lot of people are putting all the hires on RAC. I don't buy that.
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and the stupid thing in all this is we don't need a new system....we need players to execute...if the oc can pick from 100 plays he knows his team can run then it makes it hard to guess....
We agree on this one.
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as it stands with us our oc's were constantly trying to mask a ton of weaknesses, and that lessens our options, and we become predicable....
Again, we agree.
We do disagree on who is calling the shots and the validity of the moves that are being made. No big deal. At this point in time, it's just opinion.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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No, I don't believe it is going down in the same manner as you do. That's not a problem for me. I have some insight to back up my opinion, but every time I post some inside information, people call me on it. If you all don't want to hear things ahead of time, that's fine w/me. I'll keep what I hear to myself except for sharing some things w/a few posters I trust.
With that said..........we have different opinions as to why the moves were made. We both had the opportunity to state our points, which is a good thing. And now...........we can agree to disagree.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
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Saying I'm bitching and moaning isn't exactly a way to get me to reply to you, but I will anyway.
yeah but it worked 
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The Bengals have a lot more stability on their coaching staff than the Browns. I don't get the comparison.
i'm talking pre dungy....seems like they changed coaches every few years...the same stupid thing we're doing with the same sucky results....
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I've never seen one word of that reported anywhere. Where are you coming up w/this? Is it simply because he was a DC before coming here, or did I miss something?
its purely my opinion....much like yours...but it is partally made from either a presser, or article when either savage, or rac said they would participate more in offensive meetings....
i'm just looking at it from a different angle...both sides of the ball were severely hampered by injuries, so both sides could have been given a pass of sorts, but i think there were just too many problems on o, and i honestly feel that rac could have easily given more authority to his o coachs as that is not a strength of his...
when they screwed it up, then changes were made...the fans and the media are fickle....they want something to change...they want to win....you can't just pick an entire new team cause of the cap, so you are left with the one with the one thing you can change.....coaches...
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I don't feel it was a coaching problem. I feel it was a talent problem. I already have explained that. You know.........a reply to one poster can cover points to multiple posters.
you don't have to tell me that....when more talent comes the media will be telling us how we finally have some good coaches..
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I'm still waiting for someone to address where I was wrong in my assessment of the problems on offense.
we'll if your talking about the line...then your right on....how to fix it is another story.....but hey the draft is coming...heres hoping we are in position to get some good linemen....
then eventually we are gonna actually let these guys learn the scheme....
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Who would be at fault here? And do you really think RAC picked the coaching staff all by his lonesome? Man, we view what's happening in much different terms. I think Savage has called--and will call--almost all the shots. I think he gets feedback from everyone, but in the end.......it's his decision. I see that a lot of people are putting all the hires on RAC. I don't buy that.
does it really matter who picked them? right or wrong they took the fall...maybe some deserved it and some didn't but it doesn't matter...rac, savage...don't matter...they did however have a very limited group to choose from so late in the year, and now they have a larger...
personally i think all this coaching crap is over-rated when it comes to position coaches...how much technique do these guys have to learn? hold on to the ball....block...catch the ball...its all crap they should have learned long ago...
i think its more the players buying the system...and winning sure makes that easier...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
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personally i think all this coaching crap is over-rated when it comes to position coaches...how much technique do these guys have to learn? hold on to the ball....block...catch the ball...its all crap they should have learned long ago...
Wow.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
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No, I don't believe it is going down in the same manner as you do. That's not a problem for me. I have some insight to back up my opinion....
With that said..........we have different opinions as to why the moves were made. We both had the opportunity to state our points, which is a good thing. And now...........we can agree to disagree.
Thanks, The first part is why I asked. Mine was more a combination of speculation from bits and peices of what I heard. I wanted to compare that to what you know. Its not so much a matter of disagreeing I was just trying to compare what you know (from the inside) and what is out there that Ive heard along with how it all seemed to be playing out. That leaves me with nothing but an opinion which is worth as much as a Mike Junkin rookie card at any given time. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
hehe...i take it you think that was a moronic statment...and maybe it was cause i didn't elaborate
what i'm getting at is there is only so many things to teach...
as far as techniques go i'm sure there are plenty of players that need coaching in that respect....but if you have 2 coaches that teach the same thing...say blocking...they both are gonna teach the same skills....proper stance, chop your feet, drive thru the defender...the only thing different imo is personalites, and there ability to get thru to a player...
man blocking is man blocking....zone blocking is zone blocking..i doubt that one coach has a secret technique that no others have....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns continue coaching shuffle
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