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Dawg Talker
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Where did he get the gun . Was it a legal weapon ? Thats why we need tougher gun restrictions because guns kill people . ( Hey, I figured if we started down the excuses road why not trot out all of the supposed reasons why we should not hold this animal accountable .)
I read somewhere that it was his own gun that his parents bought for him. He also won a shooting contest weeks earlier.
He hid the gun under a blanket to conceal it then shot the mother.
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On another note, I'm surprised they haven't yet charged him with a double murder.
Actually they have. it's not in that particular article, but it has been in articles since then. I only posted the first article on this story because it gave the broadest description of the case.
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Quote:
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Where did he get the gun . Was it a legal weapon ? Thats why we need tougher gun restrictions because guns kill people . ( Hey, I figured if we started down the excuses road why not trot out all of the supposed reasons why we should not hold this animal accountable .)
I read somewhere that it was his own gun that his parents bought for him. He also won a shooting contest weeks earlier.
He hid the gun under a blanket to conceal it then shot the mother.
Yep, they said he got the rifle for Christmas. Apparently it's a type of rifle made for kids or something like that. I don't know anything about guns, so I have no idea what kind that would be.
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He also won a shooting contest weeks earlier.
So then he did practice gun control.
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Legend
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DA: Boy who shot father's pregnant girlfriend was jealous By Jill King Greenwood TRIBUNE-REVIEW Monday, February 23, 2009 An 11-year-old boy accused of fatally shooting his father's pregnant girlfriend was having trouble adjusting to his new family, Lawrence County District Attorney John Bongivengo said this morning. Jordan Anthony Brown was "the center of attention in his father's life" until recently, when Kenzie Marie Houk, 26, moved into the Brown family farmhouse in Wampum with her daughters, ages 7 and 4. Houk was due to give birth to a baby boy the first week of March, Bongivengo said. "This child was the center of everything for a very long time, and suddenly there's a girlfriend and other children in the house and another son on the way," Bongivengo said. "So he was no longer the center of things. We're looking into reports that he might have made threats to the girlfriend before and was very jealous of her." Bongivengo described the slaying as "callous, cold and calculating." The victim's 7-year-old daughter is the "main witness" in the case, Bongivengo said. The girl told authorities that Brown came downstairs early Friday morning holding two guns. She asked him what he was doing and he ran back upstairs, Bongivengo said. Brown then came back downstairs holding a shotgun covered with a blanket. The boy walked into a room where Houk was lying down, put a 20-gauge shotgun to the back of her head and fired one time, Bongivengo said. He then ran back upstairs, put away the gun — a Christmas present from his father — and walked outside to catch the school bus, the prosecutor said. While walking down the long driveway to the bus, the girl saw him casually toss something from his pocket to the ground, Bongivengo said. "It was a spent 20-gauge shotgun shell," Bongivengo said. "The boy then got onto the bus and went to school like nothing ever happened." The victim's younger daughter found her mother's body. When Brown was questioned by police, he at first said he saw a black truck parked near the family's garage behind the house when he was leaving for school. His description of the truck changed several times and the boy told police he thought the vehicle belonged to a man who comes to feed the cows housed on the property. But police talked to the man who owns the home — Brown's father rents the house — who said the man who feeds the livestock drives a white truck and comes in the afternoon. Defense lawyer Dennis Elisco said the boy has not confessed to the shooting, and he doesn't believe the physical evidence will support the police contention that the boy killed Houk execution-style, with one shot to the back of her head. Bongivengo said the child knew how to load and handle a shotgun and recently won a turkey shooting contest in Lawrence County. "This child was comfortable with guns, and he knew what he was doing with them," Bongivengo said. "In this area, in Lawrence County, it's not unusual for a boy that age to have a gun and know how to shoot it. This is a hunting and fishing community." Bongivengo said he plans to move forward with plans to try the child as an adult and the judge assigned to his case will make the final decision on whether the boy is instead charged in juvenile court. Bongivengo said Brown is being housed in the Lawrence County Jail but the district attorney's office is looking into possibly moving the boy to another county jail in the state which "might have more experience than we do in dealing with juveniles who are charged as adults." Pennsylvania law allows prosecutors to charge children as young as 10 with criminal homicide. Elisco planned to file motions today asking a judge to move the case to juvenile court and let the boy's father post bail. "I don't think anybody wants him there," Elisco said, referring to the county jail. Until a judge hears his motions, Elisco hopes to get the fifth-grader's school to send him assignments in jail. "I want him to be occupied and busy and back, essentially, in school," Elisco said. "I wouldn't say he's in good spirits. He's confused. He looks and acts like a typical 11-year-old." http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_613048.html
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Dawg Talker
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What he did was horrible
On one hand he should be tried as an adult because he killed a pregnant woman with no remorse in cold blood but on the other hand he is a child… honestly did he know the consequences of his actions? I don’t think he did. When he gets older he will know what he did was wrong but I bet he probably doesn’t understand how severe the actions are.
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Yep, they said he got the rifle for Christmas. Apparently it's a type of rifle made for kids or something like that. I don't know anything about guns, so I have no idea what kind that would be.
It wasnt a rifle, it was a 20 gauge shotgun. That is a fairly small gauge but still plenty of power to kill. A kids rifle is usually going to be a .22 rifle. They make a cricket version for kids that is pretty small. The big difference is a .20 Gauge shotgun shoots a shell while a .22 rifle fires a fairly small bullet.
KING
KING
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Like I said, I know nothing about guns. 
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Where did he get the gun
It was a present, but you knew that.
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. Was it a legal weapon ?
Yes. But you knew that.Quote:
Thats why we need tougher gun restrictions because guns kill people .
Yup. And a 20 guage is one of the few guns they don't want to outlaw. Of course, if this kid is the animal many of you have described him as, he would've been successful using a knife (from the kitchen table actually), or a baseball bat. Or a hammer. I suppose you are in favor of having tighter restrictions on them as well, right?
Oh, the gun did not kill. It was a tool to do the killing, just as a knife, bat, hammer, or even a plastic bag or a cord, rope, wire, scissors, antifreeze, drano, broken glass, knitting needle, brick, etc etc etc.......should all those have more restrictions on them?Quote:
( Hey, I figured if we started down the excuses road why not trot out all of the supposed reasons why we should not hold this animal accountable .)
My friend, no one, not one person has said to not hold this kid accountable for his alleged crime. Not one person. If he's guilty, the kid will serve time. The question is: should an 11 yr. old receive an adult sentence, and if so, why do we even have juvenile laws?
If guilty, he will be sentenced. You want to see an 11 yr. old sent to prison for life. I don't, if he can be rehabbed. Will we ever know for sure that he is rehabbed? Nope. Just as we don't know with every person that gets out on parole....the only guarntees in life are taxes and death.
I'm all for giving the kid a shot at rehab. He's 11. It seems to me that you would be all for a life sentence, no, a death sentence to be carried out immediately if he's found guilty, which you have already found him.
What if he was 9? Or 6? I'm sure you'd want him killed as well, right? Damn the laws, just kill them. 
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Like I said, I know nothing about guns.
I know that is why I was explaining it to ya 
KING
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I was hunting at age 9 and by age 11 I had taken quite a few animals so I knew what the end result of shooting a living creature was and I'd bet this kid knew that also. Nothing so far changes my opinion that the kid should be allowed to continue to draw breath ( if proven guilty) .
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Legend
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This isn't an excuse for the lengths and evilness to which this kid stooped, but why do people who do enough damage to a young kid when they get divorced, think it's then a great idea to knock up some other woman (or is it even his...doesn't really matter) and load up her whole family to move in on their home and their child.
Kids get treated like crap by stupid selfish adults.
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Legend
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This is tragic... My heart goes out to everybody involved.. including the 11 year old boy who allegedly did this. Somewhere along the line this boy got completely detached from reality.. and that's sad.
Yes, he should pay and pay dearly but quite honestly, it's a bit appalling to see those who want to shoot him in the head and call him an animal or lock him up with grown men 3 times his size so they can have their way with him..... Assuming he doesn't have some severe underlying biological mental issues, at 11, he is what his family and his environment made him, nothing more and nothing less.
yebat' Putin
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So then you would have zero problems with this kid getting out of whatever reab center/ prison they send him to and dating your daughter ? After all he will have paid his debt to society . Quote:
It seems to me that you would be all for a life sentence, no, a death sentence to be carried out immediately if he's found guilty, which you have already found him.
Pay attention ! I clearly stated ...if he is found guilty. btw IF he is found guilty you are correct in assuming that would be my stance.
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Somewhere along the line this boy got completely detached from reality..
You assume that and thats fine but it would be just as easy to assume that the kid was selfish and knew that by blowing the victims brains out that he would be rid of his competion . Some people are just born to be no damed good.
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Some people are just born to be no damed good.
Not a believer in free will are you.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Legend
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So then you would have zero problems with this kid getting out of whatever reab center/ prison they send him to and dating your daughter ? After all he will have paid his debt to society .
This is a fairly stupid litmus test.... There are tens of thousands of guys out there who have never been in prison a day or committed a serious crime that I don't want to date my daughter for a wide variety of reasons.....
yebat' Putin
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I was hunting at age 9 and by age 11 I had taken quite a few animals so I knew what the end result of shooting a living creature was and I'd bet this kid knew that also. Nothing so far changes my opinion that the kid should be allowed to continue to draw breath ( if proven guilty) .
I agree and so was I, my only question is an 11 year old able to make a rational decision based on the consequences that will come of his actions.
I was in a situation very similar to his with the single father and the stepmother and I was also rooted from my life and moved to a strange city(Cleveland) from a small town where I had grown up(Kent). I had the stepbrothers and sisters and faced all the issues that this kid faced. I was also pretty close to the same age,but was a bit older(12). I cant lie, I hated my stepmother with a passion and there were times I wished she would die. I dont know that I ever had thoughts of killing her but I know I did things out of jealousy and anger like beating the hell out of my stepbrother. As a 12 year old did I have the ability to rationalize that I shoudnt beat my stepbrothers behind? Did I have the ability to comprehend that I was committing a crime? A crime that if I was a grown up I would have went to jail for.
I know killing the step mom is a higher level of extreme but I am just trying to understand the thoughts going through a 11 year old kids mind.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Some people are just born to be no damed good.
People can be born with mental deficiencies that, coupled with a poor enviornment, can lead to certain things...
...but I find it hard to believe that anyone is born a racist, or a thief, a murderer, etc.
Are you telling me that if you took the kid out of the hospital the day he was born, and put him in an entirely different enviornment, he'd end up a murderer?
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So then you would have zero problems with this kid getting out of whatever reab center/ prison they send him to and dating your daughter ? After all he will have paid his debt to society .
Exactly. Now, if you had bothered to read what I wrote, I said "if he has been rehabbed". And, I also noted several times that we can never be sure ANYONE is rehabbed.
Would I want him to date my daughter? That's a dumb as hell question, but I'll answer it: no, I would not want that. Duh.
I also don't want my daughter to date anyone else that might do that kind of thing. Does that make sense? I wouldn't want my daughter to date a guy that got drunk, had an accident, and killed someone, even if he had served his time. IF, IF he was still a drunk.
However, this is not about my daughter, or your daughter. This is about putting an 11 yr. old kid in jail for the rest of his life. You seem to be okay with that, if he's found guilty. I'm okay with him serving time until he's rehabbed. (again with the disclaimer that no one would know for sure IF he was rehabbed, but we more than likely would know if he wasn't)
He's 11, and yes, that is a sticking point for me personally.
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So then you would have zero problems with this kid getting out of whatever reab center/ prison they send him to and dating your daughter ? After all he will have paid his debt to society .
This is a fairly stupid litmus test.... There are tens of thousands of guys out there who have never been in prison a day or committed a serious crime that I don't want to date my daughter for a wide variety of reasons.....
Yeah, most of us want our daughters to date nothing less than Prince William, but that's a whole different issue unto itself that we can save for another thread. 
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I was hunting at age 9 and by age 11 I had taken quite a few animals so I knew what the end result of shooting a living creature was and I'd bet this kid knew that also. Nothing so far changes my opinion that the kid should be allowed to continue to draw breath ( if proven guilty) .
I agree and so was I, my only question is an 11 year old able to make a rational decision based on the consequences that will come of his actions.
I was in a situation very similar to his with the single father and the stepmother and I was also rooted from my life and moved to a strange city(Cleveland) from a small town where I had grown up(Kent). I had the stepbrothers and sisters and faced all the issues that this kid faced. I was also pretty close to the same age,but was a bit older(12). I cant lie, I hated my stepmother with a passion and there were times I wished she would die. I dont know that I ever had thoughts of killing her but I know I did things out of jealousy and anger like beating the hell out of my stepbrother. As a 12 year old did I have the ability to rationalize that I shoudnt beat my stepbrothers behind? Did I have the ability to comprehend that I was committing a crime? A crime that if I was a grown up I would have went to jail for.
I know killing the step mom is a higher level of extreme but I am just trying to understand the thoughts going through a 11 year old kids mind.
KING
See......that's what I think of as being very selfish and cruel to a child. No offense to your dad, but that's the way I see it.
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Somewhere along the line this boy got completely detached from reality.. and that's sad.
Remenber what I said about T.V. and video games like GTA? I think kids that dont have the proper parental guidance get detached from reality by these types of media. Hey its no big deal to put a gun to someones head and pull the trigger because video games and T.V. glorify it and amek it seem like a normal part of life.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I don't believe in the correlation between video games and kids going off the deep end. There has to be a lot more in play than that.
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Are you telling me that if you took the kid out of the hospital the day he was born, and put him in an entirely different enviornment, he'd end up a murderer?
Nope but the flip side of that coin is neither can you . Nature vs nuture is an age old argument and not one that we would be able to solve or even agree on for the most part. I've seen examples that could be used as evidence for both sides of the argument . I am not juding what kind of kid he is , what his environment was like , if he is likely or not to repeat the crime at some future date . IMO there are some things you just do not get a second chance at and although it is evident that not many share that view it is what it is.
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See......that's what I think of as being very selfish and cruel to a child. No offense to your dad, but that's the way I see it.
Oh you wont see me defending him. He was also an abusive alcoholic, which made it worse to my jealousy. All my life he had treated me like crap and was abusive and neglectful,then all of a sudden he meets this woman and wants to be a loving,caring family man.
Not saying what this kid did was right, but I do understand what was going through his mind a little.
KING
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Are you telling me that if you took the kid out of the hospital the day he was born, and put him in an entirely different enviornment, he'd end up a murderer?
Nope but the flip side of that coin is neither can you . Nature vs nuture is an age old argument and not one that we would be able to solve or even agree on for the most part. I've seen examples that could be used as evidence for both sides of the argument . I am not juding what kind of kid he is , what his environment was like , if he is likely or not to repeat the crime at some future date . IMO there are some things you just do not get a second chance at and although it is evident that not many share that view it is what it is.
So like I asked you before, if the kid was 9, or 6, you'd still feel that, if proven guilty, he needs a bullet in his head? Or he needed to spend the rest of his life in prison?
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I don't believe in the correlation between video games and kids going off the deep end. There has to be a lot more in play than that.
Yes there is a lot more in play than the video games and T.V. violence, I just think when a kid does go off the deep end they know a hell of a lot more things to do than the things we would have known when we were kids .
Kind of like Shotty asked,where would a 11 year old kid even thought to do something like this? I would say kids are exposed to a lot more through TV and video games then we ever were as children.
KING
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If you don't mind me asking, why did he have custody of you?
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I usually stop short of blaming "cultural" things like video games, music, movies, etc... because typically those things are just a small part of something like this and usually accompany other serious issues... They are just a convenient scapegoat.
It appears to me that you have a boy at a very crucial developmental stage in his life who was uprooted and moved... (it doesn't say what happened to his real mom or his dads first marriage if there was one) my guess, and I will repeat my GUESS, is that the father figured he was fine with it and was dealing with things ok and that his other outbursts were just normal childhood overreaction..... So the father is going along reinventing his own life with this new woman and her kids in their new house, having a new baby on the way so the boy wasn't getting an ounce of attention and he snapped.... He made this woman (and her unborn baby) the focal point of his anger, blamed her for this massive disruption in his life....
No, stuff like this doesn't happen very often, thank God.... but to say we shouldn't CARE why he did it or try to learn from it or go back and figure out what signs he was sending that his dad wasn't getting is wrong... We need to care, if we care we will understand, if we understand we will learn and if we learn we will grow and get better.. and that's what we're supposed to be doing.. though sometimes I don't wonder if we aren't really just going backwards. Some of us have kids from divorce or troubled homes, most of us know kids from divorce or troubled homes... wouldn't we all prefer to save a kid and a family from this fate and get them help if we only knew what subtle signs to look for and how and when to take them seriously?
yebat' Putin
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You already know the answer to that . I don't remember being 6 or my perception but I do remember 9 and I knew that dead was dead with no restarts, do overs or anything of the sort .
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If you don't mind me asking, why did he have custody of you?
Well for periods of time he didnt, but my mother passed away when I was very little.
KING
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You already know the answer to that . I don't remember being 6 or my perception but I do remember 9 and I knew that dead was dead with no restarts, do overs or anything of the sort .
Good for you. However, you are assuming this kid knew, at age 11, because you knew at age 9. Shouldn't do that, and besides, it doesn't matter in my opinion. The kid is 11. If he has nothing to look forward to but life in prison, how do you suppose he'll take to rehab?
If he does have something to look forward to, suppose that might make a difference in his ability to change?
Throwing an 11 yr. old in prison for life is just something I'm not comfortable with. Apparently the state of PA feels the same way, as they felt the need to charge an 11 yr. old with an adult charge.
My son, at age 11, probably wasn't clear on what death really was. This kid (the one we're discussing).....how do we know he was? He got his gun for Christmas. That doesn't mean he was out hunting and killing.
I know many people that have guns for target shooting or skeet shooting, or just plain old tossing clays in the air and shooting.
As I have said many times in this thread, I am against locking him up forever. He's 11.
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Oh I see. Sorry to hear that. I only ask because sometimes (hopefully) in situations like these, the kid will have the option to live with the other parent if they don't like their living arrangements. These things never turn out like the Brady Bunch, do they?
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D C, you old bleeding heart liberal you!!  KING
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These things never turn out like the Brady Bunch, do they?
No, too bad though. I would have loved to have Marsha Brady as my step sister. 
KING
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From what I understand, everyone had her. 
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
Quote:
Remenber what I said about T.V. and video games like GTA? I think kids that dont have the proper parental guidance get detached from reality by these types of media. Hey its no big deal to put a gun to someones head and pull the trigger because video games and T.V. glorify it and amek it seem like a normal part of life.
I would totally agree with you but people have been getting shot, stabbed, raped, beaten and lynched long before the existence of TV, movies and video games. I would argue that violent crime has dropped considerable in the last thousand years. Maybe I can't prove that with facts but I've read enough about US history or even world history to know I'm safer today then I would be 25-250-2,500 years ago. Sorry, I don't buy blaming the media for a murder.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431 |
Justice is blind so they say so in theory one victims death is no less worthy of justice because the perp is younger than normal . Jeesh ! You'd think that this poor pregnant woman doesn't matter now that we have this moral conundrum at hand . Lost in this argument is the fact that this kid calmly got his shotgun, loaded it , placed the barrel against the back of her sleeping head , pulled the trigger , ejected the shell casing, pocketed it , put the gun away , went to school and along the way discarded the spent casing . Then proceeded to spin a yarn that would lay blame on someone else . Sounds like a sociopath to me but then I am going by the facts as they are in the article .
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum 11 year old commits murder - try
him as an adult?
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