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You already know the answer to that . I don't remember being 6 or my perception but I do remember 9 and I knew that dead was dead with no restarts, do overs or anything of the sort .
So you're saying that from 9 on you weighed the cause and effect of all of your actions and always made the most rational choice?
I'm sure he knew what dead was.... but my guess (again GUESS) is that in his mind, ending her life would solve all of his problems and he didn't consider what new problems would be created for himself and everybody else... it seems to me that it's very much like the mentality of somebody who commits suicide, he viewed this one drastic action as the only answer....
yebat' Putin
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[quoteI would totally agree with you but people have been getting shot, stabbed, raped, beaten and lynched long before the existence of TV, movies and video games.
By little kids??
I am not in any way blaming the media for this murder, as I have said several times I am just saying kids now are lot more knowledgeable in ways to kill people due to media that exposes them to this type of things.
Not sure how old you are but when you were a kid would you have even thought of putting a gun to someones head and pulling a trigger. I know I sure as hell wouldnt have known to do something like that.
KING
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So you're saying that from 9 on you weighed the cause and effect of all of your actions and always made the most rational choice?
All of my actions ? No . Murder ? Are you serious ? For a smart guy that was a stupid question.
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D C, you old bleeding heart liberal you!! 
KING
Yea, that's me... 
I just have a soft spot the size of Texas for kids... even the ones who do bad things. I see the arguments from the people who want to blame every single thing on parents, environment, video games etc... and I see the ones who demand 100% personal accountability even from from minors.. I happen to believe the "answer" is somewhere in between... as we progress through childhood into young adulthood we become more and more accountable for our own actions but we can never really get away from the way we were raised and the influences in our life....
yebat' Putin
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I think you might be surprised at the number of juveniles who committed murders through history. This isn't new. News didn't travel well back in the day.
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From what I understand, everyone had her. 
I didn't  
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Lost in this argument is the fact that this kid calmly got his shotgun, loaded it , placed the barrel against the back of her sleeping head , pulled the trigger , ejected the shell casing, pocketed it , put the gun away , went to school and along the way discarded the spent casing . Then proceeded to spin a yarn that would lay blame on someone else . Sounds like a sociopath to me but then I am going by the facts as they are in the article .
See, now when you put it like that, I DO tend to believe that he should be tried as an adult. That is why I originally stated that I am conflicted on this issue.
Just the fact that he walked away from the murder scene like he had done nothing wrong is chilling to say the least. If a child just got done shooting someone in the head, supposedly not knowing the consequences, wouldn't the normal reaction be fear? But he (supposedly) didn't panic. He just headed off to school.
CAN a child like that be rehabilitated? That's something that only a psychiatrist can decide.
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Lets also not forget that back in the day youngsters families and communities were tighter. And kids often had responsibilities at a younger age. Often they had to help in the daily operations of the household---now that is rarely the case---and industrial society is to blame.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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From what I understand, everyone had her.
I didn't
That's because you didn't have any cocaine.
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In Ire's defense, I have seen some demon spawn in my time. Some people just seemed to be wired for crazy. And I've seen people who were practically driven to crazy by their parents. I'd say most people do fall in between but, there are those who do not.
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I did 30 years ago
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I'm sure he knew what dead was.... but my guess (again GUESS) is that in his mind, ending her life would solve all of his problems and he didn't consider what new problems would be created for himself and everybody else... it seems to me that it's very much like the mentality of somebody who commits suicide, he viewed this one drastic action as the only answer....
And how exactly is this different from any person who commits murder...Most murders are crimes of passion...the truly scary ones are those that are not...
The one point I want to bring up here is IF things happened as were stated...and this boy did take this shot gun to the back of her head and pulled the trigger....Then I believe with every bit of my being that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing.
This kid had been winning turkey shooting contests. He knows that when you pull the trigger that whatever is in front of it has a good chance of dieing.
He had been hunting and fishing from a young age as many in that are had been. He grew up on a farm(cows, etc from one of the articles) and you learn at an early age about life and death when you grow up on a farm...believe you me.
He waited till she was asleep because that was his best chance to do it...
Now the argument can be made that he may not have had full understanding of future ramifications...but as I stated...how many do...especially in crimes of passion.....
Make no mistake...this kid knew what he was doing...it was his full intention to kill this woman with the full understanding that her life would be over and there would be no restarts. He even felt like he could get away with it in the manner he acted after the shooting.....Now just because he was not very good at hiding what happened doesn't mean that the intent to do so was any less.
What do you do with this kid....
rehab??? ok suppose he is rehabbed...and he is out among us....Everyone already stated they didn't want him dating their daughter......Well guess what...he is going to be dating someone's daughter....Do you have full faith in our legal system to rehab this child....because some persons child will be with him...and Yes he may become a FATHER to more children....That is a bit heavy for my conscience to handle for my faith in rehabilitation.
I just don't know personally....I lean towards tryng as an adult....but you cannot sentance him as one. He has to be sentanced differently. You can't sentance him as a juvenile...he will be free at age 21 and that just won't do...the crime is so high there are no gurantees of rehabilitation and little chance he will be remorseful(above I am in jail and not the real reason to be remorseful)...That is why I say try him as an adult but take special considerations in his sentancing....if he is convicted, of course.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Just the fact that he walked away from the murder scene like he had done nothing wrong is chilling to say the least. If a child just got done shooting someone in the head, supposedly not knowing the consequences, wouldn't the normal reaction be fear? But he (supposedly) didn't panic.
Well this is the big conundrum for me because as I see it, that proves one of two things..
Either he is totally clueless and so detached that he has no idea what he did and the ramifications of it...
or
He is a cold blooded psychopath who fully understands what he did and has absolutely no remorse over it...
Scary thought...
yebat' Putin
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Do you know what a turkey shoot is?
Ever hear of a family renting a farmhouse, but not doing anything but renting it?
He had been hunting and fishing from a young age? All we know for sure is the sheriff says people in that area hunt and fish. We honestly don't know if the kid ever shot a living thing in his life.
One more time, it does sound and appear as if the kid is guilty of the alledged crime. The real question is, does the kid deserve life in prison for it?
Ever been to a turkey shoot?
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Yes as well as skeet shooting, pigeon shooting, target shooting.....
and if they were really going to give the kid a beginner's shotgun they would have given him a .410 The .20 guage is just a small click from the .12 guage which is what is most prevalent in professional shooters and hunters...The kick on the 20 is far worse than on the .410 and just a little less than the 12. Which is why you give the beginner the .410 to let them get used to it and let them work their way up...So that also tells me the kid has been shooting more than once or twice in his lifetime...
Last edited by PETE314; 02/24/09 07:01 PM.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Oh...and you don't have to be a farmer to learn those lessons of the farm....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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hes an 11 year old kid.he will probly spend his next 7 years in some kind of state run facility.they will let him go when he turns 18.its a terrible thing ,but we dont know all the facts.
it seems every few years we have an incident like this.since the beginning of time.its very sad.
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Since you have been to a turkey shoot, can you tell me exactly what goes on?
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No. I am against the subjective application of the law as to deciding when a person is deemed to be adult even if current law is conflicting.
In one instance you are adult at 18 and allowed to vote and legally make your own decisions. In others you aren't adult enough to be able to drink until 21.
That withstanding, no reasonable person can confuse a 11 year old with having a adult, mature, rational thinking mind. It isn't about right and wrong. A five year old knows killing people isn't right. Should we hold them to adult standards?
IMO unless a person is of legal age, which is generally considered 18 years of age despite the anomaly of drinking age, no crime committed by a person under the age of 18 should be held to adult standards. I don't care if it is 17 years, 363 days.
What needs to be addressed is the prison system tiers. Then you wouldn't have to worry about this step in the process. You have juvenile detention and adult detention. There needs to be a middle tier so you can deal with cases like this.
That isn't to say this kid or others shouldn't pay, and should be let go at 21, but somewhere along the way I can't help but feel we can't just throw 11 year olds to the curb.
18-19 year olds for that matter.
There needs to be a tier for the puberty teens up to about 25 years of age.
I don't care what anybody says, you don't really reach adult thinking until you are in your 30's. The difference between a 21 year old and a 31 year old is as great as between a 11 year old and a 21 year old.
Once you get 30 something, the thinking doesn't change a whole lot in people....just the expectations.
We can address the problem, or we can shrug it off and let people go or throw others under the bus.
I think we can do better than that.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I agree with Ballpeen.
Also I would want a psychiatric evaluation of this child to determine if he has any kind of mental illness. And then an evaluation of the living situation dynamics. Need to understand what broke in this kid's head to fix it, or figure out if even if it's fixable.
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Update:
Suspect In Pregnant Woman's Death Now In Juvenile Lockup
Jordan Brown Accused Of Killing Lawrence County Woman
POSTED: 8:23 am EST February 25, 2009
UPDATED: 12:23 pm EST February 25, 2009
WAMPUM, Pa. -- An 11-year-old boy accused of fatally shooting his father's pregnant girlfriend in their Lawrence County home has been moved from an adult lockup to a juvenile facility.
Dressed in a white prison uniform and wearing handcuffs, Jordan Brown was taken to the Allencrest Juvenile Detention Center in Beaver County around 8 a.m. on Wednesday.
The boy has been in jail since Saturday morning, when state police filed an adult charge of homicide in connection with the death of 26-year-old Kenzie Houk in Wampum.
Police said Brown put a gun to Houk's head while she was lying down and pulled the trigger, killing her and her unborn baby.
Houk was found dead by her youngest daughter on Friday morning. Police said a youth shotgun found in Brown's bedroom was used to kill her.
Houk and her child, Christopher, were laid to rest on Tuesday evening in New Castle.
Brown had been under 24-hour guard at the Lawrence County Jail and was kept separate from the other inmates.
"He's simply kept segregated from everyone. He has no TV, no books to read. He's all alone because there are all adults there," defense attorney Dennis Elisco said.
As a possible motive for the killing, the district attorney said that Brown may have been jealous that he had to share his father's affection with Houk and her two young daughters, ages 8 and 4, not to mention a baby on the way.
Grieving family members said Houk, who was eight months pregnant with a son by Brown's father, treated the suspect like her own child, and they want the boy to face trial as an adult.
Brown will be held at Allencrest while awaits a bond hearing next Monday. Brown's lawyer will ask for the boy to be released, but the prosecutor wants the boy to stay in custody.
A Look Inside Allencrest
Built in the 1950s, Allencrest can hold 18 residents. Brown is currently one of twelve juveniles being held in the facility.
Like the other nine boys and three girls, Brown will have his own room. He will wake up at 7:30 a.m. and will start his day with exercise.
Afterward, Brown will wash up, have breakfast and then go to classes inside the facility.
Brown will be allowed to interact with the other young residents during the day but at night he will return to his room.
Channel 4 Action News' Amber Nicotra reported Brown will have some access to television and books and with good behavior he can earn special privileges like staying up beyond the usual bedtime of 9 p.m.
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"He's simply kept segregated from everyone. He has no TV, no books to read. He's all alone because there are all adults there," defense attorney Dennis Elisco said.
As a possible motive for the killing, the district attorney said that Brown may have been jealous that he had to share his father's affection with Houk and her two young daughters, ages 8 and 4, not to mention a baby on the way.
Grieving family members said Houk, who was eight months pregnant with a son by Brown's father, treated the suspect like her own child, and they want the boy to face trial as an adult.
Brown will be held at Allencrest while awaits a bond hearing next Monday. Brown's lawyer will ask for the boy to be released, but the prosecutor wants the boy to stay in custody.
A Look Inside Allencrest
Built in the 1950s, Allencrest can hold 18 residents. Brown is currently one of twelve juveniles being held in the facility.
Like the other nine boys and three girls, Brown will have his own room. He will wake up at 7:30 a.m. and will start his day with exercise.
Afterward, Brown will wash up, have breakfast and then go to classes inside the facility.
Brown will be allowed to interact with the other young residents during the day but at night he will return to his room.
Channel 4 Action News' Amber Nicotra reported Brown will have some access to television and books and with good behavior he can earn special privileges like staying up beyond the usual bedtime of 9 p.m.
Oh, poor baby. no television or books. 
He may not need to be with the adult prisoners but, he sure as hell doesn't need to be hanging out with the other juvies either. This is stupid and rather infuriating. 
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As a possible motive for the killing, the district attorney said that Brown may have been jealous that he had to share his father's affection with Houk and her two young daughters, ages 8 and 4, not to mention a baby on the way.
Im sorry! but that has nothing to do with this child's state of mind!...has to be more to it. We are not reading all the fact's, this child is disterbured, and they need to find out why! jmo.
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and he gets to sleep in every day till 7:30 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I agree Shotty, if it was jealousy then why didn't he shoot the girls too. Also what person in their right mind would shoot someone not hide the evidence and go out about their business like nothing happened? He had to know he would be caught.
#gmstrong
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He had to know he would be caught
I don't know about that....I think at that age, a kid is naive enough to think he can get away with it.
And as far as the jealousy thing goes, he did tell someone that he wanted to shoot her 2 daughters too. Luckily, for whatever reason, he didn't.
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The kids weren't his father's so he probably realized they'd be out of his life also.
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I wonder, did this couple get engaged before or after she became pregnant? and did the guy want the kid?
#gmstrong
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I think we are all missing the big question, What happened bfore they got together. And how was the boy treated after?, or in the other household?
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I have no idea. Another thing I would like to know is where is his mother? It hasn't been mentioned once if she's even still around or deceased. 
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I'm just speculating, but what if the father secretly didn't want the baby and the boy knew that and with his jealousy of the woman and her kids and his affection for his father decided to "fix" the problem.
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I think somebody else posted in this thread about a theory they had that the father may have told the boy to do it. I don't know...there are a lot of unanswered questions in this case.
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Police said Brown put a gun to Houk's head while she was lying down and pulled the trigger, killing her and her unborn baby.
Two concurrent life sentence for that.
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Houk was found dead by her youngest daughter on Friday morning.
A third concurrent life sentence for that.
For those who support rehabilitation. Perhaps he can stay with you when he gets out. Just until he gets back on his feet. Sleep well.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Also what person in their right mind would shoot someone not hide the evidence and go out about their business like nothing happened? He had to know he would be caught.
Any person in their right mind doesn't shoot a sleeping person in the back of the head... everything you said after that is irrelevant.
As I've stated before, this kid is either the most ruthless, evil, demon 11-year-old I've ever heard about...
or...
He is just totally mentally detached from reality....
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Also what person in their right mind would shoot someone not hide the evidence and go out about their business like nothing happened? He had to know he would be caught.
Any person in their right mind doesn't shoot a sleeping person in the back of the head... everything you said after that is irrelevant.
As I've stated before, this kid is either the most ruthless, evil, demon 11-year-old I've ever heard about...
or...
He is just totally mentally detached from reality....
or he's a spoiled self-centered brat that is used to getting everything his way, and suddenly he didn't.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I don't know about that....I think at that age, a kid is naive enough to think he can get away with it.
And as far as the jealousy thing goes, he did tell someone that he wanted to shoot her 2 daughters too. Luckily, for whatever reason, he didn't.
I agree.
Children that age confuse reality and fantasy all the time. I don't doubt at all he thought he could go on as normal and never get caught. If you can think putting the bed covers up over your head is somehow going to protect you from the big, lurking menace in the closet, he could have easily thought this.
The reason he probably didn't kill the others is reality took hold. Blowing someones brains out would have to be a sobering moment...snapped him out of the fantasy into the reality of the moment.
Sad situation.
I agree with some in that it was probably a fear of losing his status with his father to a new woman and new children.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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There needs to be a tier for the puberty teens up to about 25 years of age.
What then do you do with the young man a day shy of his 25th birthday who hates his father's new girlfriend and decides to put a shotgun to the back of her head while she's sleeping and pull the trigger?
I'm fairly certain that I, at just over a month shy of 28 years old, am fully aware of the consequences of putting a gun to the back of another person's head and shooting. I'm also fairly certain that I was aware of those consequences 5, 10, 15 years ago.
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If you truly want to see this child rehabilitated, then he wouldn't be incarcerated at all. He would be integrated back into society, with careful monitoring, daily therapy and counseling sessions, and other measures taken to assure that he fully realizes the gravity of what he did. The point of rehabilitation is, after all, to get the person back to where they were prior to their crime and ensure that the undesired behavior doesn't reoccur.
Prisons aren't there to rehabilitate. Prisons are for deterrence. Don't want to spend months or years locked up in jail or prison? Don't commit the crime. But prison isn't supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be easy. I'm not suggesting that inmates be treated inhumanely while locked up, but I balk at the idea that a person who isn't being entertained by books or music or television while in prison is suffering some sort of injustice.
Assuming that this child did indeed do what he is accused of doing, then I don't doubt that he was at least aware of the physical results of firing a loaded gun point-blank into the back of someone's head. He might not have understood the potential legal ramifications of his actions in their entirety, but if you make that the basis of culpability then I'd venture to guess that you'd have to free a good number of convicted criminals.
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum 11 year old commits murder - try
him as an adult?
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