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1st String
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Browns hire new tight ends coach January 23, 2007 CLEVELAND (AP) -- Alfredo Roberts has been hired as Cleveland's new tight ends coach, replacing Ben Coates who was not retained by coach Romeo Crennel following the Browns' 4-12 season. Roberts spent the past four seasons as Jacksonville's tight ends coach. With the Browns, he'll work with Kellen Winslow, who tied the Browns' single-season receptions record (89) this season. ADVERTISEMENT Like Winslow, Roberts played at the University of Miami. He was drafted in 1988 by Kansas City. He played three seasons for the Chiefs before joining Dallas in 1991 and played on Super Bowl title teams with the Cowboys. On Tuesday, the Browns also lost assistant head coach Jeff Davidson, who was named Carolina's new offensive coordinator. Davidson was Cleveland's offensive line coach before taking over coordinator duties following Maurice Carthon's resignation in October. Crennel, who hired former San Diego tight ends coach Rob Chudzinski as his new offensive coordinator last week, is looking for a special teams coach following the departure of Jerry Rosburg to Atlanta.
**Insert clever signature here attributed to some historical figure that sounds interesting but has been taken completely out of context.
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Legend
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All these coaching changes seem so meaningless.
One guy gets fired by Team 'X' and then hired by Team 'Y'.
So he can't get the job done at one place but teams can't wait to hire them?
And then you get the typical company lines about how great they are.
What a bizarre business.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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It's usually becase the current head coach doesn't agree with that particular postion coach..or don't fit in the grand scheme of things....only some truly suck...others r jus fired as scape goats and or cuz the coach wants to go a diff route...
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Chud hired his buddy. all there was to it.
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does it really matter who the te coach is?
oioioioi
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it does...if he doesn't teach k2 blockin or at least makes him believe it's very very important we r screwed...
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Legend
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JC
Now that it had taken all of a week for Davidson to land a OC job at Carolina after being told he wasn't good enough to do it here, who is our O-line coach??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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Peen, don't know where it's at on here, but there was an article that said the Browns were talking to a guy named Palcic for either the TE Coach or Oline coaching jobs,,, with the TE Coach having been hired, maybe he's the guy they have in mind for the Oline?
Otherwise,your guess is as good as any
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well, I did play o-line in 9th grade and I coach backs and receivers at a local high school. Maybe I should dust off my resume! 
Follow me on Twitter <a href="link" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/CoachA12</a>
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All Pro
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So he can't get the job done at one place but teams can't wait to hire them?
Carolina is a GOOD team who under-achieved in 2006. It would not surprise me to see the Panthers return to form and win 10 or 11 games next season.
Then, assuming the Browns win... 7 games...
Fans will scream, "How did we let Davidson get away? Look what he is doing in Carolina."
I have no doubt these coaches are talented. But, NFL success requires the right coaches, right scheme, right players.
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But, NFL success requires the right coaches, right scheme, right players.
Right players is the key.
Even the best coach will not be succesful without the right players.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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Practice Squad
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I actually think its a good hire. He's helped coach Kyle Brady, as well as develop George Wrightster and Marcedes Lewis. While he was in the league he was considered one of the better blocking TEs in the league. Plus the guy was a player, won two national championships and two superbowls.
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I actually feel that no Coach is meaningless, all of them have to be on the same page and do their jobs properly. So the team can reach it's maximum potential.
However, all of these Coaches also need talented players to Coach. We have some talented players but we need so much more work with the Lines, CB, RB, and QB.
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I've always viewed some of these position coaches as interchangable. Many of them can't get the job done because of the players, not their coaching knowledge or style.
Hudson Hauk (sp) of the Dolphins is one of the really good O-line coaches in the league, but couldn't do squat with losers like LJ Shelton in Miami. Rosburg had a great special teams unit this year, but in the past when he didn't have good players, the unit was terrible. We often can't determine just how good or bad a coach like this is until after they are gone. It's easier to judge a coach when he's calling the plays or finding his way to the HC job on an interim basis.
This is no big deal one way or another.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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RAC is doing the hiring and firing? LOL..........okay. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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We're both very familiar with the kind of spin they have to put on these kinds of things.
RAC is a bad start away from spending the rest of the year at home. His input into the coaches is not what it was, nor should it be.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If I had to judge by first name alone..............I don't know if I like this hire. WTF!!! ALFREDO!!!
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Legend
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We're both very familiar with the kind of spin they have to put on these kinds of things.
RAC is a bad start away from spending the rest of the year at home. His input into the coaches is not what it was, nor should it be.
Toad, I want to examine this for just a second.
You obviously feel like some others here that RAC is not hiring and firing his own coaches.
But you also appear to believe this is justified.
If this is the case, it's almost akin to a punishment.
I've never heard of such a situation like this before. Do you know of another organization where you also believe this happened?
I'm not saying you're right or wrong. It's just that I've now heard you allude to this several times. You seem to be saying, RAC deserves not to choose his own coaches.
To me, if the FO has really gotten to this point, they should just fire him.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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you may be right on that point and Im sure there are more than a few here that would say you are. I see it in a little bigger of a picture, the FO knows that the media is on their case and they in turn are linked to the coach in a sense. Knowing that RAC had a habit of perhaps paying back some old favors (no proof just IMHO) and also knowing that RAC is a defensive guy perhaps they feel it is best to step in and make some suggestions as to who our next coaches are on offense. Im sure RAC still has imput because lets face it if he hates the guy it wont work but in the end they are bringing in guys to interview and RAC perhaps signs off on them instead of him bringing them in and the FO signing off on them.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Legend
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Quote:
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But, NFL success requires the right coaches, right scheme, right players.
Right players is the key.
Even the best coach will not be succesful without the right players.
I can think of 2 coaches of the top of my head that didn't turn over a ton of players when they took over as a coach. Both teams were considered less then average in talent and abilities yet somehow... they produced winners.
John Madden...
Vince Lomabardi...
as far as I remember Lombardi didn't cut any of the players... he just beat the basics into them and I'm pretty sure so did Madden
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Like everything in the world, it's never black and white, cut and dry. The answers are always in the grey area's.
For the sake of appearances, an organization can NEVER, and I mean NEVER give the appearance that they've taken all power away from a fragile coaching situation and expect it to work.
In our case, we'll use MO as an example of what's coming off here. Mo was RAC's guy. The organization felt that Mo had to go. RAC disagreed. The organization came in and fired Mo despite the loyalty that RAC was showing. However, the story that comes out is that RAC let Mo go.
Something wasn't right. So what was the truth? The organization didn't want to publicly hammer RAC, so that's how they handled it.
Fast forward to now. RAC's coaches are all gone, but he got to stay. However, his choice in coaches left way too much to be desired, so now the organization is making many of the choices for him.
Punishment? Hardly. In fact, RAC has received a stay of execution: He got to keep his job. The tradeoff is that he loses some of his ability to pick and choose who he wants for his staff, primarily because the Mo situation was allowed to go WAY too long.
Does this happen to other organizations? All the time. In Seattle, Mike Holmgren, who's by all accounts a really good NFL coach, was stripped of his GM duties and relegated to head coach, because the organization didn't think he could handle it.
That's just one example. It does happen all the time. The problem with proving it by pointing to a........*ahem*..........black and white example is that they don't let these things get out in public because of the chaos it causes.
This little bit of role-playing is meant to be over-the-top in order to make the point:
Savage at a Presser: "Ladies and gentlemen, we find the 2006 season and it's results to be far less than satisfactory. Our head coach allowed the Mo Carthon situation to go entirely too long. We were forced to strip him of his decision making powers when we decided to fire Carthon because he didn't know when to pull the plug. Other hand-picked coaches such as Ben Coates who were loyal to Carthon were also fired because of their affiliations. We no longer believe that RAC has the ability to pick and choose a successful coaching staff, so we're going to do it for him. However, we're willing to give RAC one last chance here to remain as the head coach. We'll see how well he does for the first few games and take it from there. If we're doing well, he can keep his job. If we're not, he can't. We're taking this thing one day at a time, and will continue to play it by ear until the entire situation stablizes itself."
Now, what do you think such a speech would do to the players? How about the fanbase?
Again, that's an over-exagheration (not that I can even spell the freakin' word without a spellckeck *L*), but it makes the point.
Does RAC have some say in the process right now? Most likely, but not nearly what he had when this thing started. He lost that ability when he let the Carthon thing get so far out of hand.
So, your interpretation of what I said........I'll try and clear it up for ya man.
I feel that RAC has mishandled his responsibilities as the HC, either through lack of gameday coaching or how he's handled things with his coaches and players. My reference to the kind of spin they have to put on things revolves around keeping everyone's confidence up and making a good show of it. They can't possibilly hang their coach out to dry, so they'll continue to make things look as though RAC is in complete control of the situation, even though he doesn't have the same pull he had in 2005.
When I say he's a bad start away from going home, I mean that as a coach on the hot seat, he's a bad start from being fired. There was no emphatic "RAC IS OUR COACH FOR NOW AND FOR THE FUTURE!" after the season was over. The response was "we'll all get together in a meeting and see where things go." Since they let him stay, they've essentially said that the ground rules have been laid, they are all on the same page of understanding, but that RAC isn't going to be getting an extension, hehe. Since he's clearly on the hot seat, if this team doesn't get off to a good start, the entire city from the owner down to the begger wearing a Browns jersey from 1991 is going to be freakin' out, much the way Butch went down in flames back in 2004.
My final part to the statement said "His input into the coaches is not what it was, nor should it be" means that, IMHO, he failed as an evaluator when hiring and taking care of how Mo conducted his business, therefore he shouldn't be allowed another crack to pick his staff. If he's a dead-man walking here, then putting in his own guys creates a situation akin to Mo's. Mo was fired, his people that were loyal rocked the boat, so they were fired as well. If RAC were allowed to surround himself with his own people, and if he had a bad start and were let go, it'd be chaos with waring factions. That can't be allowed to happen. So we strip him of some of, if not all, his powers to keep a bad situation from getting worse.
Because of all that, I felt that RAC should have been fired, and that an entirely new staff should have been put in place. Keeping RAC didn't keep all the coaches in place, and firing him wouldn't have meant an entire new set of coaches either. All we've done by giving him one more chance to turn this around is to risk bringing in a new HC who may want to blow up the new staff, thus creating a situation where we've got some coaches coming and going every freakin' year.
I applaud the organization for keeping RAC based on the desire for continuity. However, a new coach, if one is brought in, will want his own kinds of players here, which would have resulted in nothing but a delay in selecting the players for the next 3-year direction.
I know much of this is my opinion, but I like to ride the odds. To me, the odds of RAC doing enough to keep his job are not good. Most probably would agree. I orriginally wanted him to get his three years, but after what I saw during his first two, I don't think he deserves the third. I felt the same way about Couch, pretty much feel the same way about Frye (though he should get at least part of the season behind a good line to prove or disprove my belief), and felt that Butch should have been canned before that last part of a season. I see the same problems if we get off to a bad start, which is that some interim coach takes over in mid-season and the year is lost.
I'm digressing......badly, *L* That's where I'm coming from here. RAC chose poorly in many instances these past two seasons, and I don't think he can be trusted with the keys to the car. I think for the sake of appearances he's being handled the right way in public, but behind closed doors he's been told that if he wants to remain as the HC, he had to give up some of his power as the coach. He agreed. Who else would have him as the HC? Unless he wanted to lose a fat salary and go back to being an assistant, he had no choice.
So here we are..........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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reading this it made me think alittle more on some of Savages comments regarding how he had to look in the mirror before passing blame etc.
I felt personally that eluded that to meaning the players that are here and he had to remove in the process of rebuilding the team, but perhaps it also was in part due to him not wanting to step in and tell RAC what to do instead leaving the problems to continue to build up until finally Mo had to go.
We dont know what went on behind closed doors but down at the stadium I was told that Savage was gone after the game was over but the media leaked the word and learner was really pissed off because of the fan backlash that ensued. The rest as they say is history. It also is said that RAC made a stand in Savages defense in that little stuggle.
So as I said Im starting to wonder if perhaps in hindsight Savage is thinking he perhaps gave RAC to much rope to hang himself with instead of being the bad guy so to speak and swinging the axe himself when it should have been done.
I personally believe that RAC can have success here if given the correct pool of talent and part of that pool must include coaches that are both on the same page as the head coach and hungry to aquire the same position on another team.
Will the current corp of coaches save RAC's neck remains to be seen but this is a new core group of coaches that are hungry and willing to work here and that for the short term bodes well for Cleveland.
I still however dont see how anyone can look at next years schedule and expect any more then 6 wins. Thats my target and I wouldnt be suprised if its theirs as well. If he goes 2-4 across the first 6 games I dont expect any changes.
Not what anyone wants to hear but its the truth in this division and this team.
FA/Draft could prove to increase our totals but Im not holding my breath until year 3 is complete.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Legend
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My response won't be as long winded as yours.  I see how you've drawn your conclusions and where you are coming from. You paint a very plausible picture of what is actually occurring behind the scenes. I need to digest it for a while before whether I can say I disagree or agree. No matter what, it's all speculation - although logical conclusions can be drawn. You've connected the dots in a logical fashion. What I don't understand - if this is true - is how this could be the better of the two alternatives and how the FO could have felt that it was. I can only imagine the resentment RAC feels if this is indeed going on. It's got to be pretty hard to do your job under those conditions. Not to mention the pride factor. How is this creating a good working environment for anyone? If this is the case, RAC should have just been fired. I see no way this has a happy ending. None. Continuity for continuity's sake is foolish I think. What a mess. What a [censored] mess. I'm sick to my stomach.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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What I don't understand - if this is true - is how this could be the better of the two alternatives and how the FO could have felt that it was. I can only imagine the resentment RAC feels if this is indeed going on. It's got to be pretty hard to do your job under those conditions. Not to mention the pride factor.
How is this creating a good working environment for anyone?
If this is the case, RAC should have just been fired. I see no way this has a happy ending. None. Continuity for continuity's sake is foolish I think.
What a mess. What a [censored] mess. I'm sick to my stomach.
Here i although not a real part of your coverstion will say that I dont see it as such. First off RAC knows that the media was and is in a feeding frenzy.
Rac knows that he made some mistakes and almost lost his job because of it. In this case there are no 2nd chances for him this is it. Do or die.
The FO has said they want this to work for him, the team, the fans, they want it to work. In order for it to work this must happen.
It was said he was a players coach when he was hired. Perhaps he was a coaches coach as well, not knowing when to cut the ties. Mo was a friend of his and now he doesnt have the problem of being loyal to friends. The coaches now were hired by the FO and answer directly to him. You mess up your gone, no feelings to hurt, no bridges to burn.
Should be interesting to see how he coaches now without that albatros around his neck.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Legend
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Here i although not a real part of your coverstion will say that I dont see it as such.
Absolutely feel free to join in.
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Rac knows that he made some mistakes...
Does he? I'm not sure about that. I just don't get that feeling.
If he did have this mindset, then yes, that might change things a bit. But I just find it hard to believe that he does. I don't think he liked parting ways with any of 'his' coaches.
It takes a special person with a very reflective mindset to have someone tell them 'you're doing a bad job' and then have them have them say to themselves, 'they're right...I am doing a bad job...I readily accept the FO now making my decisions because I am not capable of doing it myself...and the only way to show them they're wrong is to do a better job of coaching...'.
I just don't see it that way. Very few people possess that ability to evaluate themselves honestly and set a path to do better.
I think RAC is a lame duck. I see another wasted season next year.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Absolutely feel free to join in.
Thanks
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...I don't think he liked parting ways with any of 'his' coaches.
Im sure he didnt like it in fact Im of the mindset that is why he held on to Mo for so long. However I also agree with OT in the fact that those that have been shown the door so to speak also were Mo supporters. They would have been undermining RAC's athority as head coach. They had to be removed and I honestly believe that came from him as much as the FO.
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It takes a special person with a very reflective mindset to have someone tell them 'you're doing a bad job' and then have them have them say to themselves, 'they're right...I am doing a bad job...I readily accept the FO now making my decisions because I am not capable of doing it myself...and the only way to show them they're wrong is to do a better job of coaching...'.
I just don't see it that way. Very few people possess that ability to evaluate themselves honestly and set a path to do better.
I think RAC is a lame duck. I see another wasted season next year.
I can see your point on this but again I think it was more of a Ok we had a problem with your hires and you had a problem with letting them go. We are going to bring in some people and you will be there at the interview. When we find someone that we both like and both believe can work for our system to help create a better team that will be our hire.
Im sure RAC has some say in who was hired, just it wasnt his pick on who to bring in. As far as evaluations go your correct its very hard for a person to be told they are not doing a good job. In the NFL that goes on constantly and may just be the deciding factor on who actually makes it across the long run. RAC has been a coach for a very long time, although not as HC.
Look at MO. He worked for Parcells and was told yeah you are OC but Im calling the plays your not good enough. He was able to work under that system. In B-more the same is place. The HC said he is going to continue to call the plays to the new OC.
With RAC its only on the offensive that they are retooling and hopefully not having any actual IOU's to these guys it will allow him to coach instead of mediate. We all wish that had not been the case but whats done is done.
Will RAC do well or flop under this type of limited control remains to be seen but I dont think its anything he hasnt already seen in the past and also think he can have success under such a system.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Let the off season coaches shuffle begin or is it a game of musical coaches
Groza76
Go Browns, WIN or lose, forever!
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My response won't be as long winded as yours.
Pray it never is, otherwise, seek help.
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What I don't understand - if this is true - is how this could be the better of the two alternatives and how the FO could have felt that it was.
They still believe in Crennel. They've taken the continuity mantra to heart, and honestly believe that he can get it done. They don't want to blow the thing all the way up, otherwise they would have.
From there, you can REALLY go down speculation trail and see all kinds of possibilities. Some may include Savage and Co. not seeing coaches they like that would have been available to wanting coaches who currently aren't. I'm not suggesting that's the case, but stranger things have happened.
I do applaud them for sticking with RAC despite the things that have happened. I also won't say that it's all RAC's fault. SOMEONE had to sign off on Mo as the OC. As has become a favorite saying of mine, Savage has his own cross to bare. Notice that I'm not judging these people based on wins and losses, but rather on the moves themselves.
Here's a question that I'd leave you with regarding this mess and the picture I painted. We know that RAC brought in Mo as his OC. We know that Mo was a problem. We know that most feel as though RAC stuck with him far too long, and that such a move was a clear mistake. Furthermore, that some of the coaches were loyal to MO and caused a fuss.
With all that in mind, would you trust RAC to pick out his own coaches yet again?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Not to start a coaching debate, but... Sometimes I think we place WAY to much importance on this coaching thing. I cussed every Sunday, threw things at the TV and really scared my dog on more than one stupid call by MO. Yet, he didn't drop the balls, fumble, throw interceptions or fail to wrap up the next runner speeding towards the end zone. I look around the league and see some pretty established coaches and systems on the losing end of the record. You really think the Patriot or Colts players would be 4 and 12 next year if we brought them all here in free agency ? Lets get some more players with heart and desire, players that really want to play, players that get P.O'd when they lose. We have about 5 of those guys now. No amount of coaching will fix this...
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normally i would agree with you. However in this case if you have coaches fighting it has to have a trickle down effect. The players are not dumb and can see this going on too. Some keep quite others rebel. Players much like us probably like to see a big happy family coaches included. When that starts to break down much like a family the whole team follows until finally you end up with a disfunctional family. The fix is to replace the parts you can before becoming totally inept as far as a team is concerned, ie coaches fighting.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Keeping RAC didn't keep all the coaches in place, and firing him wouldn't have meant an entire new set of coaches either.
Yes it woulda meant that..because of the internal mess that was going on , those coaches WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN RETAINED by Opie..especially when he was having issues with one in particular..
U know that..as well as I do..
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Coaches can only do so much. One can't make a souffle out of dog [censored], and coaches can't make track stars out of Sumo wrestlers. Hudson Houck can't make LJ Shelton an NFL-quality left tackle, and our coaches can't make iffy players great.
But to quote myself again, I'm not judging coaches on wins and losses, but rather on the things we CAN judge them on. Mo's gameday playcalling was highly questionable (*laughter supression ON*) and Crennel's handling of that situation was poorly executed. I can't blame Bozo for Edwards' drops, but I can judge him based on how he butchered his tenure as interim coach.
Coaches can only do so much, but it's fair to judge them on what we can see outside the realm of winning and losing.
Attack, they blew up Butch but retained Bozo. It's easily within the realm of possibility that Opie would have kept a coach or two if they'd have fired RAC.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Robo was not liked by Phil as well as the TE coach..remember when I pasted that stuff that broke about the loyalties to Mo and Robo being out for Robo...and the other stuff going on, the way Phil had a difference with the strength coach..him being unprofessional on the sidelines during games ...on and on.. I find it hard to believe Phil would have retained any of the guys that were let go..remember..Rac let em go but WHO inititated THAT to him? 
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Let's say he fired RAC, but wanted to retain Sherer. Would Opie fire Rip?
I don't see a situation where if RAC is fired that every single coach has to be let go as well.
The entire point is that firing RAC or keeping him doesn't effect continuity in the way some might believe.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
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No because Sherer wasn't involved with the mess going on and wasn't fired anyway..he was allowed to interview for OC...
Nor was the ST coach involved in anything as far as we know..
I meant all those AC's that were being disruptive or had their own agendas..notice NONE of the defensive coaches were mentioned?
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I think we're somewhat talking about two different things. I know what you're saying, but when it comes to Savage making the decision to fire the head coach, I don't see anything that says it would have cost us all of our staff.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Only way it costs us the entire staff is if they hired a new HC and he insists on bringing in his own guys.
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j/c
I didn't think this warranted a new thread and I didn't see it anywhere else...
kffl
Browns | Lynn expected to interview for running backs coach
Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:35:40 -0800
Nick Eatman, of DallasCowboys.com, reports Anthony Lynn is expected to interview with the Cleveland Browns for their running backs coach position. Lynn served as the Dallas Cowboys' running backs coach in 2006.
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j/c: I think too many are assuming that RAC picked his coaching staff and Savage had no say. I can see why some want us to believe that, because it shifts all the blame away from Savage and Damien [who was still involved w/the team at the time of the hirings] and directly onto RAC's lap. It fits in w/the RAC must be fired theme. Let me just say that I don't think it's accurate, although accuracy has never been a real big concern around here.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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For what it's worth, I do admire your use of sarcasm 
I wonder how many actually blame just RAC without pointing to the cross on Opie's back........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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