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FA's go where the money and opportunity exist.
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Well, at least we didn't over pay for him. He's nothing special, but he's a decent player.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Yawn, why spend any money period on a backup TE when you have Ruck and Heiden?
We go out and get a 2nd string TE? We need 3 linebackers, a center, a free safety, a running back, and depth at corner!
We could have EASILY signed Matt Birk for fair money, maybe $3mil per year, which is nothing. That would have actually been an upgrade, something that Kok and Mangini have yet to do, improve ONE POSITION ON THIS TEAM.
I totally agree with not spending huge bucks on older players or over paying for people. But not signing Derrick Ward and Matt Birk, stupid, plain and simply stupid.
We have filled ZERO holes so far this offseason. I was hoping for players like Birk, Ward, Mike Peterson, Bobby Engram. Not high dollar guys, not core guys, but upgrades for a few years.
I'm pretty puzzled right now at the lack roster overturn, surely Kok and EM arent happy with our roster.
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Legend
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Do you even know IF Heiden is going to be 100 percent recovered by August?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Got it ! .. Don't necessarily agree , but ok ...
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Does it really matter? It's not like Royal is going to make much of an offensive impact. The point is we have bigger issues, and there are options out there to help.
Where is the priority? It seems that unless a FA will come at bottom dollar, we aren't interested. Is Bobby Engram an upgrade at WR? Is he going to demand a huge deal? What about Mike Peterson? Why would we not go after Matt Birk?
Derrick Ward get's 4yrs/$17 mil, and thats too much?
We coulda signed Goodman, Greer, or Carr, which all woulda gave us some much needed depth at CB. If we are more concerned with our backup TE position than LB, C, FS, and RB...we already lost the war.
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Quote:
We could have EASILY signed Matt Birk for fair money, maybe $3mil per year, which is nothing. That would have actually been an upgrade, something that Kok and Mangini have yet to do, improve ONE POSITION ON THIS TEAM.
I totally agree with not spending huge bucks on older players or over paying for people. But not signing Derrick Ward and Matt Birk, stupid, plain and simply stupid.
Like someone said above, we don't know if Kok was talking to their agents. And even if we offered a contract of similar value, there's no guarantee anyone would have wanted to come here. Again, we don't know who the Browns have or haven't been talking to OR any contracts they have or haven't offered. It's all speculation at this point.
From what I've heard of Kok, I don't believe he's sitting in his office saying, "We have holes at linebacker, center, free safety, running back and we need depth at corner Eric.......but instead of doing something about it, let's focus on a backup TE only." Look, he's a smart guy that comes 'highly' recomended. Trust me, he's working on our problems. It's not as easy to just sign a guy you think would be a perfect fit. I was screaming at the top of my lungs last year to get Michael Turner and forget Lewis......here's the deal, Turner wanted to go to Atlanta, he probably wouldn't have even thought about Cleveland or anyone else had they called his agent. And Lewis was old and nobody else wanted him. So we were stuck. I can't go on complaining about how we should have signed him because we may have had a 0% chance at it....even if we offered more money.
I'm sure our FO is VERY aware of the depth chart issues, even moreso that you and I. I have a feeling they're trying to building through trades and the draft (mostly because FA’s want to go where the situation looks promising – and Cleveland looks like cesspool right now). I expect their next move is another trade for picks (DA and maybe BE). Plus, we still have a shot at Jones, Adams and JJ.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Poser
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It's called building a franchise. Maybe you've heard of it. You do so in the draft. The FO DID address holes by getting rid of K2 and getting a draft choice. They will use that draft choice to fill the holes you want to waste money on with FAs. You build a franchise through the draft and then supplement that core talent with FAs. Heiden isn't guaranteed to be ready for camp or the season. Rucker is a receiving TE more than a blocking TE. The FO filled a need by making the moves they did. They upgraded the overall position of TE and added a draft choice to fill another hole.
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Quote:
From what I've heard of Kok, I don't believe he's sitting in his office saying, "We have holes at linebacker, center, free safety, running back and we need depth at corner Eric.......but instead of doing something about it, let's focus on a backup TE only."
Of course they're not. I'm sure they realize those guys are good fits, or they better. But it seems, as I said above, they feel that they can't pay anything for anybody.
If we offer a similar contract to a player, or slightly more, you would think they would sign. So why not go after Matt Birk for instance? Unless word is out that EM is an a-hole, and thats why no vets are willing to sign.
I don't know why, but there are no excuses for not signing players who make sense and upgrade our roster at a fair price.
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Legend
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I don't know why, but there are no excuses for not signing players who make sense and upgrade our roster at a fair price.
I can think of a few excuses:
1) Maybe the guy doesn't want to come here. It has something to do with the coach. Or it has nothing to do with the coach. We don't know.
2) Just like there's no proof that we did go after a guy like Birk, there's no proof that we didn't.
3) Birk didn't sign with 31 other teams, either. Maybe he just felt his best fit was with Baltimore. Just because he may have helped us doesn't mean he's going to sign with us. Just like it'd be great if someone traded us their 1st round picks for all eternity for Edwards or DA doesn't mean there's something wrong with us if that doesn't happen. Free agents don't sign here all the time, just like free agents don't sign other places.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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j/c...
Free agency is for suckers. Just ask Pittsburgh, New England, Philly, Indy, etc...
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Quote:
I don't know why, but there are no excuses for not signing players who make sense and upgrade our roster at a fair price.
Valid excuses:
1. We don't want him
2. He doesn't want us
3. We have plans in the draft
New regimes tend to have trouble getting vets to sign, especially if said franchise has been bad recently. And it doesn't help that we have to play Baltimore and Pittsburgh four times this coming year.
I know, you think we have the money in the cap and we have a need on the depth chart...so call up his agent and get him signed. If it were only that easy dude.
I'm not blind supporter of this new FO team, yet. I liked Phil but never got behind rac. I think we have to give this new team time before we start slamming them for not doing their jobs. I like how we don't know what's going on in Berea. I like not knowing their "plan"...maybe because they have a good one and don't want to share it with the world. Maybe they think we're going to stink this coming year....and they're planning to hit this draft and next years draft hard so we can come out swinging in 2010. Who knows right now?
All I know, this team should be playing harder. We left a lot of wins on the field last year because people quit. I don't expect a winning season this year (doesn't mean I'll be happy about it though). Mangini and Kok will find the players that want to stay and those who want to go.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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j/c...
Free agency is for suckers. Just ask Pittsburgh, New England, Philly, Indy, etc...
Well New England has picked up FAs in the past, as well as Pittsburgh and Philly. I agree with your premise however. If we aren't going to resign our FAs then we need to replace some of them. Royal was a need since it appears we don't want Dinkins back.
I am concerned about the lack of interest we have shown so far. Until our strategy becomes more apparent to me I will remain a little concerned.
#gmstrong
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So why not go after Matt Birk for instance? Unless word is out that EM is an a-hole, and thats why no vets are willing to sign.
Well, for one thing, Baltimore just lost their starting Center ..... so they had a huge gaping hole in the middle of their line, and probably told Birk he could have the job.
Why didn't the Ravens rsign their own guy Jason Brown ..... unless , of course, he felt that Harbaugh is an a-hole, and that's why he wasn't wiling to sign back with Baltimore.
There could be any number of reasons why a player picks one team over another. It could be the perception of the opportunity available ..... it could be money .... it could be location ..... it could be family ..... who the hell knows?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Does it really matter? It's not like Royal is going to make much of an offensive impact.
Do you even have a clue how much a good blocking TE means to not only your running game but also to your pass protection?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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GM, Did you REALLY just ask HIM that question...with a straight face?  Of course he doesn't.
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Well I was laughing when I typed it 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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just clicking.... seems like a very solid - albeit a most non-sensational, non-headline grabbing - signing.
At the very bottom end, this guy sounds like he will be a significant upgrade over the one-dimensional Dinkins.
At the upper end, he is solid insurance in case Heiden doesn't recover fully from the ACL.
Additionally, Heiden is getting toward the end of his career (already has 10 years in). If he manages to come back in good shape for '09, there nothing to say that he'll be back for '10.... and we just wrapped this guy up for 4 years.
We stabilized a weak point in the roster. Nothing spectacular, nothing flashy... just a football player.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think that this could be a sign of us transforming into more of a power running team.
Subtract Winslow, and add Royals ....... I can see some 2 TE formations, with 2 guys who can catch the ball, but who are also each excellent blockers. Rucker could fill that "3rd down TE" type role as a guy with the speed to split seam, but who might develop into just enough of a blocker that he might stay in as well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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a power running team??? .. then we'd be getting rid of Stieny (who i love .. but he will never be on a power running line) ... hank and Shaff ... NONE OF THEM will ever be a part of a power running game .. especially not when they make up 2/3rds of the interior ...  ..
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Quote:
Well, for one thing, Baltimore just lost their starting Center ..... so they had a huge gaping hole in the middle of their line, and probably told Birk he could have the job.
Why didn't the Ravens rsign their own guy Jason Brown ..... unless , of course, he felt that Harbaugh is an a-hole, and that's why he wasn't wiling to sign back with Baltimore.
The Ravens didn't resign Browns because he wanted money that he wasn't worth, a smart move. Thankfully the Browns didn't go sign a bunch of guys not worth the money.
The Ravens have a real NFL front office, one that saw they needed an upgrade at center, so they found a guy at a reasonable price and filled the need.
The Browns have just a big of a hole at center, Fraley is awful. One of three things happened.
1. The Browns didnt contact Birk
2. They did contact him, but felt he wanted to much money
3. They offered him the same money, but he didnt want to come here
Unfortunately, none of those three options are good, if we felt he wanted too much money, than Kok is nuts. And if he just didnt want to play here, then we have real issues.
Birk made sense, bigtime, why we didn't upbid Bal, a division rival to get him, does not make sense. Unless of course he plainly didnt want to come here, which again is seriously bad news.
I know, everyone on here is saying the same garbage they did when Butch came on, when RAC came on. They LOVE every move. And then shower the board with all the same boring, beaten sayings "It's a process", "it takes time", "its year one of a sixteen year plan".
We need better players to be a better team. I don't want to build through FA, but supplement with it. We need some viable vets on this team, not willie's or ted washington's. Guys that can still play, like Engram, Birk, Peterson.
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You spew the same garbage like you have a clue, no matter who is in charge. You narrow what could have happened to your limited thinking and then claim those are the only options. While it's quite humorous to watch you pretend you have a clue, someone on the board that is new and not used to your crap may think you actually know what you're talking about when the opposite is true. Here's one simple little option on what could have happened off the top of my head that is more likely than any of the crap you've spewed thus far. Birk isn't exactly young and it's possible Coke offered close to the same money, but Birk decided to go with the team that was in the championship game with the thought that the Ravens are close to the Super Bowl now. So, he decided to go where he has a better chance in the immediate future of getting a ring. Now, I know that option doesn't fit in your agenda of slamming anyone that is employed by the Browns, so you either ignored it or are even more clueless than I think and that option never even dawned on you. I swear, you are so laughable. The Browns could go 16-0, have 12 shut outs, win the Super Bowl by 42 points and you would be on here whining there were too many unpopped kernels in your popcorn you bought at the stadium.  Bottom line is you have no idea what happened. You just limit what could have happened to a very small scale out of ignorance, the desier to whine at every turn, or both.
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Actually, I think it's more a sign that we aren't going to have one dimensional players in key roles rather than a move to a power running game. There were many times that K2 was in the game and we couldn't move the ball because of his inability to block.
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Dam Coach , you be in a bad mood today !
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Legend
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“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Different FO, same clueless crap from Mensa. It gets old. I at least smiled at you when I replied LOL
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Sure hope this means we will run outside, the Forgotten Lands, this season. If he can seal, try a sweep or two. I am sick to retching of our total nothing sideways passing game. And the reverses are much too predictable. Hope this guy is a star blocker! 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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j/c Welcome to the Browns Robert Royal.  Nothing flashy, just a solid depth player who will see a good chunk of playing time. Should help the running game.
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All Pro
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Thank God you and GM have a clue....i can save myself some time and sanity. If i hadnt of got down the thread where you and GM added some real football knowledge....i think i would have throwed up my hands and found me another team since our FO and coaching staff are clueless and most of the posters on here have it all figured out!  You guys think the organization should hire some of our puter literate couch coaches and give this team a lift? Now i dont think nor do i believe one has to be inline with all our Fo and staff does....i have lots of issues at times but to flame the FO and coaching staff at this point is indeed clueless!!!!! This thread is a joke!!!!!
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Quote:
How much of you being upset about lack of interest in players is a result of Fewer media leeks, and not the front office ignoring the players you wanted?
The site is acting up so I'm going to be extremely brief.
The answer to your question is: Zero, zilch, nada, zip.
I'm pro-Mangini, and fully on board with how they are shutting out the media. I have been since the day this pathetic bunch of rag-tag wannabie's cried about how they are being treated, then attempted to say they are doing it for us fans. I gather information and base conclusions on what I read from the national media outlets, not this bunch of amateurs in Cleveland.
I base my conclusions on the FACT that in the past, when we wanted players, the national media reported we were going after them, and quite often signed them. This year? Nothing. Just a few sniffs around fringe players and/or backups. That isn't conjecture. That's a logical conclusion based on historical facts compared to current information.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It stinks of rebuilding when we don't have to rebuild.
It does remind me of Savage/Rac's first year. No real FA signings.
It makes me think they really don't have a solid enough grasp of the existing roster yet and will possibly use this year as an evaluation (throwaway  ) season.
I can see you being miffed if it's indeed a rebuilding that is happening. I don't feel that's necessary either. But unlike Savage, these guys haven't tossed away all our big money players. So I assume they don't see this roster as a total waste but see plenty of talent though they need more time to get the evaluations right.
Hey, I have an idea, maybe with so much to do in so little time and having no experience with this roster or with all the new assistant coaches they're behind a bit in all this. Nah.
#gmstrong
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They are behind..but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know certain areas where the Browns have failed for 9 years..no real defense...no hammer MLB..No impact SS...
No pass rush..
Get those areas fixed and you just advanced the defense..
Seriously... it isn't hard to figure that out.it's how you go about fixing it.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 03/06/09 09:22 AM.
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1st String
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Quote:
The answer to your question is: Zero, zilch, nada, zip.
Thanks for the response, and I respect your opinions, as you always come across as well thought out.
That being said, I don't know that I agree completely with you in this case. We put different amount of stock in the ability of the National or Local media, and their ability to pick up on the news about what the browns are doing. What you call history, I call preliminary data.
I personally think that with the new front office, it is going to be a whole new ballgame in terms of the scraps of news that are available to the media and this board.
Honestly, I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree.
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Quote:
Here's one simple little option on what could have happened off the top of my head that is more likely than any of the crap you've spewed thus far.
Birk isn't exactly young and it's possible Coke offered close to the same money, but Birk decided to go with the team that was in the championship game with the thought that the Ravens are close to the Super Bowl now. So, he decided to go where he has a better chance in the immediate future of getting a ring.
Now, I know that option doesn't fit in your agenda of slamming anyone that is employed by the Browns, so you either ignored it or are even more clueless than I think and that option never even dawned on you.
I like watching a good fight as much as anyone but I have to ask, why is this scenario different than option 3 that BFZ has listed above? That is, the Browns made him a decent offer but he didn't want to come here. 
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Quote:
It stinks of rebuilding when we don't have to rebuild.
Well, that depends on how you view this.
While I don't think this is a full blown rebuild since the roster is still mostly intact, we did need to rebuild, hell BUILD the defense. Right now, they are trying to add depth to the defense and it appears they will draft a few defensive starters.
What these new regime is doing is they are not using the past failed ways of building a team through free agency. This is a complete opposite of what Phil Savage was, get the high priced FA and try to build that way. Like it or not, Phil's drafts, other than 2007 where he was dead on point, have been pretty awful. Only starters I can think of are Edwards, Pool, Wimbley, Thomas and Quinn, assuming that Quinn is the starter.
What this regime is doing, apparently, is it will add depth first and draft starters to the defense while trying to create a ball control offense. I don't have any problems with that at all, seeing as how that is the same formula the Steelers and Pats use. Now can this regime find the talent to do that? Different argument all together and right now, no one could judge them because they haven't had their chance yet.
you had a good run Hank.
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Read the entire post he wrote and remember his history. He is inferring that the FO is inept (saying that the Ravens had a "REAL" FO and implying we don't). He is implying that Birk didn't want ot come here because of the FO. He said it was a "bad thing" if Birk didn't want to come here. Mensa constantly puts up fallacies like this and narrows the situation to slant the discussion....and ALWAYS is shown to be wrong when reports hit the media. Birk not signing is not a bad thing. As I said, he is older and wanting a chance for a ring. Baltimore was the best option for him to go deep in the playoffs considering where they finished last year. The Browns aren't there yet. It's also not a bad thing because the only way Birk would have come here is for us ot overpay. The FO didn't do that. It shows they understand long term.ramifications of overpaying for older vets. Another scenario left out by the doom and gloomers is maybe..just maybe....the FO has a C targeted in the draft. Hmmmmm, like they might actually have a plan. Who would believe it from such morons? 
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Can't defend all of Phil's picks/drafts; however you forgot Brandon McDonald, Eric Wright, D'Qwell Jackson, Lawrence Vickers, and the signing of udfa Josh Cribbs.
To say his drafts were "awful" is too harsh, imo. His drafts were all actually pretty decent, his mgmt style was awful, but talent evaluation was his strength (maybe only one he had, but it was/is good).
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
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So why not go after Matt Birk for instance?
This is just one possible thought process.. while I agree that for now, Birk is probably better than Fraley, Birk is 32, Fraley is 31.. Fraley is signed for $1.6 M this year I believe, Birk just got $4 M per year.... so while Birk is better, is he that much better? If we would have had this opportunity a few years ago, it's a no brainer... but now? I'm not so sure...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
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It makes me think they really don't have a solid enough grasp of the existing roster yet and will possibly use this year as an evaluation (throwaway ) season.
Your memory, as well as your sense of humor, endures 
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I can see you being miffed if it's indeed a rebuilding that is happening. I don't feel that's necessary either. But unlike Savage, these guys haven't tossed away all our big money players. So I assume they don't see this roster as a total waste but see plenty of talent though they need more time to get the evaluations right.
Unlike that roster, there are actually some big-money players here who can........you know.......play. Still, they can evaluate this roster until blue cows glide past the Sea of Dreams but that won't produce enough good players to compete. The draft will help, but IMHO we needed an infusion of talent via free agency, and there was, beyond any refutable arguement, viable and affordable talent to be had. National media reports didn't report that we had serious interest, and the actions of the team proved it.
Undoubtedly, the next arguement would say that there's no proof we didn't try to go after these guys. So I'll save those perticular posters the effort by saying for all of Savage's faults, when we wanted a player, we signed the player. Why? Because no matter what goes on in the world, money talks.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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