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and i could agree with that 100% ... only problem is then why did we cut Shaff .. cause he is 100% the exact same scenario Donte is ... Shaff and donte both cost us significantly more to cut than to keep .. they are both a bigger cap hit by cutting them .. they both play positions of need .. we have no true RT on the roster now other than Tucker and he can not be counted on ... and we have I believe now 4 WR's on the team total ... and Hubbard and Cribbs are a question mark and a not very good one (Cribbs being not very good .. hes shown nuttin thus far) .. so both positions are position were VERY VERY THIN at .. and one coule make the argument were much thinner at RT .. at least we have other WR's on the roster ... I do not have the answer I would like to believe what u guys discussed .. but cause of what happend to Shaff and the similitarities in situations it makes no sense to me ... tell your Dad that Diam does not have the answer and feels like a DOLT ..... and feels CLUELESS and BEFUDDLED over these moves .. not because he disagrees with them but because he can not figure them out .. I gaurantee U that will put a smile on his face and he will get a chuckle out of that one when u tell him ... 
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I am going to see him this afternoon and will tell him. I mentioned to someone in a message that I don't know which has him more frustrated, that he has had a setback or that he can't call his friends and find out the information we are all scracthing our head about. I can promise you that when I'm allowed to bring his laptop and cell phone to him, his first few calls will be to find out what he can. His next move will be to post it on the board, I'm sure.
Crazyotto, I don't know if they think it's a throw away season. It might be that with the easier schedule, they felt they could still compete while making these moves.....not necessarily compete for the Super Bowl, but not a "throw away" season. I'm purely speculating, as Dad hasn't been able to talk to anyone in a few days.
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No, it's not a "throw away" season (a term we coined during Savage's first year, and one that sends DDubia into fits  ), as we're not cutting all high priced players. However, there is a serious sense of rebuilding here.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I hate to disagree with such an accomplished debater as yourself,but,I 'm not seeing any rebuilding.I've seen a good bit of tearing down,but not any rebuilding.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I guess it depends on how you look at the term rebuilding. After all, the Steelers turned over 27 players (if I recall correctly) when Tomlin came on board. That's a significatn turnover in roster, yet I wouldn't say it is a "rebuild". Also, we have had on successful season in....well the last 7 years or so. So how much was "built" to be "rebuilt". I'm kinda playing on words, but I think the core is there and now we need a few starters and desperately need to build depth. What it seems like, and I don't mean to be disrespectful or insulting, is that some posts read like the poster is expecting starter quality players at every position and 4 deep. I may be misreading the intent, and I"m not referring to you at all, but that isn't realistic. I mean, how many really know the names of New England's 4th safety without looking it up? How many, once they do look it up, think he could start elsewhere? It takes patience to build depth and you have to build the back end of the roster as well as the front end.
That was a tangent, and not directed at you, just added for discussion.
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I guess it depends on how you look at the term rebuilding. After all, the Steelers turned over 27 players (if I recall correctly) when Tomlin came on board. That's a significatn turnover in roster, yet I wouldn't say it is a "rebuild". Also, we have had on successful season in....well the last 7 years or so. So how much was "built" to be "rebuilt". I'm kinda playing on words, but I think the core is there and now we need a few starters and desperately need to build depth. What it seems like, and I don't mean to be disrespectful or insulting, is that some posts read like the poster is expecting starter quality players at every position and 4 deep. I may be misreading the intent, and I"m not referring to you at all, but that isn't realistic. I mean, how many really know the names of New England's 4th safety without looking it up? How many, once they do look it up, think he could start elsewhere? It takes patience to build depth and you have to build the back end of the roster as well as the front end.
That was a tangent, and not directed at you, just added for discussion.
I happen to agree 110% with you.
Building up the depth of the roster. That's how you build a TEAM. I do believe there are core pieces here that need to be supplemented with other players. I'm not saying we're a massively talented team like the Cowboys (and then again, who says a collection of talent is best? look how they ended up...), but our starting 22, come opening day, can compete with anyone.
It's the depth that I'm worried about, and apparently the staff agrees because we're filling out depth with our signings.
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"but our starting 22, come opening day, can compete with anyone."
How in the hell can you say that,without even a clue as to who will still be here,or who else will be let go.
I understand you like the new regime,buts let not get rediculous.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Hell, at this point I'm not thinking Super Bowl. I'd just like to think we can compete for 8-8.
Which, at this point, I don't think is realistic.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I would agree with you at this point. However, we haven't had the draft, finished trades, or gotten intot he second wave of free agency yet. What we see right now it a painting that is only started, not complete. 
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I happen to agree 110% with you.
Damn, Ammo, I can see you sucking up to the coach. But suckin' up to his son?!?......
Just kiddin'............
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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What we see right now it a painting that is only started, not complete
Well, I hope they have a big freakin' brush......'cause they got a lot of paintin' to do...... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
Quote:
I happen to agree 110% with you.
Damn, Ammo, I can see you sucking up to the coach. But suckin' up to his son?!?......
Just kiddin'............
Anyone who remembers the infamous Charlie Frye debates knows I don't suck up to Coach. LOL.
But we are agreeing more and more these days.
I still think Frye was a garbage QB, by the way.
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but our starting 22, come opening day, can compete with anyone.
 
Last time I checked, which I havent check the HOTW on KFFL lately to see what starter we cut, but as of 3pm....
We have no:
OLB x2...If we are relying on Kam as one, thats sad news.
Middle Linebacker...for a 3-4
Center
Right Guard
Right Tackle
Wide Receiver
Free Safety
Running Back
Corner Back
The "depth" players brought in are trash, if Poteat ever touches the field for us, that means we are totally done. If Bowens is on the field for anything more than special teams, we are in even more.
Depth is meaningless if the "depth" players can't play worth a darn...
Oh yeah, and what does it matter if you have depth, if your starters are awful...and as today, at 3 pm....we need TEN STARTERS half our team....come opening day, if we have a good draft, like excellent draft...I say we might go 6-10..might, if Ryan and Dabs are good.
This is also not factoring in that EM and Kok havent picked a QB, and from what I've seen, they might pick DA...
We have depth, Hank Fraley, Jerome Harrison, Kam Wimbley, Rex Hagnot, Alex Hall...all decent back up players...
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You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with almost all of it. Wimbley has not played to expectations, but is far from "garbage". Fraley is an average starter that was hurt by poor right guard play last year. The year before, he played above average. Tucker is healthy (though if he remains that way remains to be seen) and he is an above average right guard. We have starting wide receivers in Edwards and Stallworth as of right now. So, in essense, we don't have a starting right tackle, middle linebacker (though that will be rectified soon with a FA signing), one OLB, and a safety.
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But they've known about the bonuses from the day they walked in the door. It's not like you walked in and said "oh, yeah, forgot to tell you, the team owes $10 million in bonuses next week".
You are missing my point.. it makes no difference if they knew or not, it's still handcuffing them... that's the point.. No matter how you slice it, if they didn't have those contracts they have to deal with, then I suspect that some of the things they are doing, would either not be done or done differently.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I hate to disagree with such an accomplished debater as yourself,but,I 'm not seeing any rebuilding.I've seen a good bit of tearing down,but not any rebuilding.
That's because you haven't stepped back and taken in the big picture
It looks like we're tearing down because the one trade we made was to move Winslow and replace him with Royal. That's what we see this very moment. The rebuilding will come in the draft, when that draft selection turns into a player. We'll then have another 2nd rounder and the #5 pick in the draft, which may be a player, or could become two players.
Another reason I view this as a rebuild and not a teardown is because of who we've lost. The only starter we've dumped and not replaced is Shaffer. We're actually going to upgrade at ILB when Barton's agent stops being a dork and signs the deal. Losing JJ doesn't mean as much as sentimentality would lead people to believe. They like to talk about lockerroom leadership and heart. That's meaningless unless you can play. Nobody had a problem with Dorsey until they found out he has the arm of your average girl-scout cookie hustler. Suddenly, his value as a mentor for Quinn and as a coach on the sideline meant jack-squat.
Perception about tearing down or rebuilding or even reloading will change once the draft gets here.
B's son (do you have a name dude, because that one is gonna get old I'll settle for a nickname) I would disagree that we have a core similiar to the Pats or the Steelers which would lead me to believe we're reloading, not rebuilding. Thomas, Steinbach, Jackson, Rogers. I don't see anyone else that represents a "core" which we can say we're building around. Quinn has some promise, but having promise doesn't make you a core player. Nobody can say with 100% certainty he's our starting QB. Edwards? Yeah, right. Fraley? He's on the wrong side of his career and gets no push in the run game. Tucker? He's this years Andra Davis. Lewis? Probably his last year as a Brown, if he remains at all. Harrison? Backup/scatback. Wimbley? A failure. Pool? A question mark. The only one who's close may be Wright, but he's still an unknown.
No, I don't see a core of players here to build around. I see a ton of question marks, which makes me believe we're rebuilding. More than anything, it's the lack of bringing in a front-line player in free agency. That tells me we're not close to being a playoff contender in the eyes of the organization, and since we're not dumping all our valuable players for picks or prospects, that tells me we're not in a tear-down.
So where does that leave us? Right in the middle, which in terms of the NFL means we're rebuilding.
Now does that mean we can't win some games? Nah, it just means we're not a contender in this division right now.
It's very easy to try and label exactly where this team is after each and every move. That's a recipe for failure. When free agency is done and the draft is over, only then will we really know where we're at.
Oh, and B's son, I appreciate the sentiments regarding the fact you're not referrencing me regarding how some fans are viewing this thing. You don't have to worry about it man. You're articulate enough so that I know what you mean. In short, stop being so damned formal *L* I'm sure your pops impressed that upon you growing up, which is a good thing, but you're allready part of this board by proxy, so take off the neck-tie and suit, put on some sweats and tube-socks and relax
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Firstly, if the Browns are going into the season with Stallworth as a starting WR...then again, that pathetic because the guy does nothing.
Kam, again, does nothing on the football field, nothing. He isnt a pass rusher, he doesn't hold the point of attack, he has no instincts. If he is starting, teams will continue to exploit him in the running game, and not give him a thought on third down because he can easily blocked by any tackle.
Maybe these guys think they can "fix" Kam, Donte, and DA....
I don't think Fraley is decent at this stage, I think he's a backup. If we are going to run the ball, or be a power running team, he is the first person to go. We need someone who can get push, not just hold the LOS on passing downs,which is what Fraley does.
Right Guard is a need, if we can't go into the season relying on JJ, Shaff.....then we can't rely on Tuck. Who is what, 50?
And of course the major needs on defense are an OLB and MLB.....nothing on defense will change until we a difference making rusher on the outside and a physical presence on the inside...which everyone well knows. And these 2 areas were the 2 I think the draft should be focused too. But now that we have made umpteen other holes, they may not address those 2 areas, which means....sucko defense in 2009.
Free Safety is going to be big deal as well, and Elam is not a starting caliber player. I thought James Butler would be a Brown, but now all the safeties are gone, except for Mike Brown.
At best we come away with 2 starters, if they draft well, sorry, we have needs all over the place. Not 3-4..IMO!
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I never meant to imply our core is anywhere near the Pats or Steelers. Far from it. We're also far from the Lions or Raiders as far as core players in my opinion. As for a name, I was going to use my own name, but originally was just posting to update for Dad because I promised him I would. Then I kinda got sucked in to some threads and started posting. Just call me Wood or Woody. That nickname has a dual meaning. It started out as RedWood because of my size, but one of Dad's assts. started calling me Wood in Jr. High because he said that when I blitzed, I could lay the wood. So it kinda stuck. Tube socks? I've never owned a pair in my life. What am I, 4?
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You can change your name on your profile page.
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I'm tellin' ya'...Watch this Edwards thing...
STALLWORTH DOESN’T GET CUT
Posted by Mike Florio on March 13, 2009, 7:53 p.m.
With a $4.75 million roster bonus due if he was on the roster at the close of business on Friday, Browns receiver Donte’ Stallworth wasn’t cut.
And here’s the likely reason — like the $5 million roster bonus owed to quarterback Derek Anderson, the $4.75 million roster bonus owed to Stallworth is fully guaranteed.
(Thank you, Phil Savage.)
Stallworth’s $745,000 if guaranteed as well.
So cutting Stallworth wouldn’t have mattered. One way or the other, they would have been paying him for 2009. They might as well make him work for it.
Go Browns!!!
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They might as well make him work for it.
You are assuming he'll actually be on the field, I guess.........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Dainty plays in odd numbered games in odd numbered mothhs....what more do you want!
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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fire Stallworth NOW
I totally agree!!! We need to get Torry Holt and show Stallworthless the door!!! JMHO Go Brownies!!!
Who Let Da Dawgs Out? Woof, Woof, Woof!!!!!
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I agree with trying to get Holt but we will have to play with Stallworth one more year.....and we should anyway. We dont have the depth at WR to subtract. If healthy....he has game. Big if eh.....
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Dainty plays in odd numbered games in odd numbered mothhs....what more do you want!
Well I know its asking alot, but It would be nice if he'd actually catch a couple of first down passes in the few games he plays. The old coaching staff apparently discouraged TDs but I'd like a couple of those too. 
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I had no idea his bonus was fully guaranteed. I clearly don't remember that bit of information coming out when he signed the deal.
Savage is turning out to be more of an idiot than I thought, and I thought he was a rather accomplished idiot.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That is irritating as hell............why on earth would you guarantee a big RB like that? The REASON they have the roster bonuses on big deals like we gave him is to make the first year a SHOW ME year and if he didn't show us so we would have shown him the door.... No wonder he didn't exert any effort in 2008, he knew he didn't have to!!!!!!!!!! 
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I agree.
No wonder the first call Lerner made after the season's final gun was to Savage.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Moves like this by Phil Savage will be one reason why he'll never be a GM in the NFL again. He makes Butch Davis look like Bill Parcells by comparison.
At least Butch got the Browns to the playoffs and who knows if Northcutt holds on to the football how far they could have gone that year.
Mangini/Kokinis are going to have the hardest task of any regime since 1999 to get the Browns back on track.
Did Lerner have the final approval on these bonus contracts or was it up to Phil Savage and McCracken?
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From what I can tell, Lerner lets his operations staff work with autonomy.
I am sure he says here is how much money you have to operate this year, and here are the expectations.....have at it as you see fit.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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That is irritating as hell............why on earth would you guarantee a big RB like that? The REASON they have the roster bonuses on big deals like we gave him is to make the first year a SHOW ME year and if he didn't show us so we would have shown him the door....
No wonder he didn't exert any effort in 2008, he knew he didn't have to!!!!!!!!!!
He woulda never signed then...
The days of 15M SB's are gone...With back-loaded contracts and huge Bases later...Was way 2 easy to release these guys...
Enter smaller SB's and more guaranteed bucks...
He's got good hands...I just so happen to think he'd be deadly as a slot receiver...
I still say sign HOLT...Trade Edwards for 17 (Jets) and get Kenny Britt... 
Go Browns!!!
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I agree on trading Edwards...we have a evolving process here, and Edwards biggest value to us at this point is his trade value.
I think we might even be able to do better than a mid 1st rounder for Edwards.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I dont see us doing better than a first rounder at all for Edwards... Teams know we are doing a roster overhaul... and Braylon is in his last yr of his contract..... I hope we do trade him... but i would only expect a 2nd and 5th for him... maybe a 2nd and next years 4th.... but i wouldn't get excited about it... He will probally stay.... Then we will have to put up w/ his complaining  all season...
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I am sure he says here is how much money you have to operate this year, and here are the expectations.....have at it as you see fit.
You know Peen, Lerner catches hell for appearing disengaged, but if your the owner of a team, and you are more of a fan than a real Football guy, then isn't this the right thing to do.. I mean the alternative would be the guy from Washington. Dan Snyder sticks his nose into things that only a person with REAL football knowledge should.
I'll go even further, look at Jerry Jones in dallas. What is it he's really accomplished since the mid 90's... since taking the controls he's gone through several coaches and gone really nowhere.
So I actually like Lerner.. he's made mistakes but he doesn't stop working at it. He does research and due deligence, makes a decision, backs his picks and gets out of the way.
Then he gives them the time to work and plenty of rope.. If it's clear, as it was this past year, that his choices were wrong, he's quick to pull the trigger and relieve people of thier duties.
I am not exactly sure what else we can ask for in an owner....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Any trade would be predicated on Edwards extending with the new team.
We would get much more than what you envision.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I had no idea his bonus was fully guaranteed. I clearly don't remember that bit of information coming out when he signed the deal.
Savage is turning out to be more of an idiot than I thought, and I thought he was a rather accomplished idiot.
I did not know that either- the deal was actually announced as being club friendly. No wonder he produced next to nothing last year, didn't have to too. Wish i could see the rest of this contract. How much of that 35 million is guaranteed, when can we cut the losses.
For the good things that Savage did, he sure did make some moves that would have come back to bite him in the future. He was shown the door before he had to deal with the mess that he created.
Stallworth can still redeem himself. We are sour on him now because of his lack of production and injury. But he had games with Philli and NE where he put up some fine numbers- but then he would get hurt- and the cycle of inept play would start all over again.
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"No it isn't a reward for "achievement of excellence" - what a load that is, it is simply an accounting mechanism for getting more money to a player in a given year without violating the limits set on salaries by the CBA."
We have limits on Salaries??? Where? When?
How many contracts are written with a Roster Bonus involved - lately (I know a lot has to do with fiddling with the Signing Bonus which is OH so FINAL).
Its all Show ME. For the most part the player has to EARN that Roster Bonus on being who we thought they were. For the most part those not being mentioned actually Did earn their bonuses and showed they are who we thought they were. Even with the eyes of a new regime who weren't involved in the "Thought they WERE" part of it.
Two were on the IR...One played a lousy RT. One lost his job as QB - but his bonus was guaranteed limiting options. The other was a oft injured WR....he's the only puzzlement but as mentioned I did read we don't have much of an option either where I think his RB is guaranteed as well.
Is it an exact tool of reward. No but in general. Rogers, Joe T, Corey W, Lewis
all earned their bonuses (I know some will about Corey - but in my eyes he earned it...he played hard and well with just one arm as he got into the new D)
you don't here about us releasing, negotiating with any of them.
But the ones we are - just coincidently happen to be the ones not earning their bonus with their PLAY. I think its more of a coincidence. RBs mostly have to be earned...or else get cut. It makes teams sit down and really evaluate that player and make a decision prior to the RB date. 90% of it is earned reward...the other 10% has to do with CAP relationship.
"That isn't a handcuff, that is a rationalization." Word games???
Not handuffed...I'm sorry because of the RB's due it "FORCED" Mangini and Kokinis to evaluate and determine whether said player was in our Long Term plans...here and now. Maybe we would have preferred to make that decision after training camp...or after using their services for one more season? But because of the accelerated decision due to the RB we were Forced to ask for a restructure or release them.
Did somebody put a gun to their head. NO, but on that premise there isn't ever a forced situation ever in football even if over the cap...where there is a will there is a way.
My arguments hold no WATER? you are the one with a ONE DIMENSIONAL outlook on this situation. SEE CAP SPACE....SEE US SPEND. Of course not looking at the multiple dimensions involved.
1. Bang for your buck.
2. Ramifications of future Cap with Contracts that would take more than one year involved and more than one year's worth of SB that would have to be accounted for.
3. Precedent of what this Regime is willing to pay for services rendered.
There are many things involved than - SEE CAP SPACE we can SPEND ALL OF IT. Just an FYI you can't hold water in a One dimension container.
Sorry you didn't make me see anything.
This is what I see.
JoeT, Rogers, Lewis, Corey Williams...earning their RB and future with our team.
Shaffer, JJ - not.
DA n Stallworth...guaranteed so there is no choice (handcuffed).
Spin...horsecrap? And Mangini and Kokinis' motivation to get more under the cap is just what? They get a bonus for making Randy more money? Or for making the team more efficient.
Those who earned it - weren't said BOO to. Those who did not were questioned.
Replacing Shaffer...who knows maybe we did by signing Womack...he was suppose to start at RT last year prior to his injury.
They are not dumping salary left or right every which way they can.
Its amazing how if you really like a player JJ then all of a sudden your mind can change...but I understand how that happens and how fans are upset.
But what they are doing is clearing out the players that they felt were not in the best interest and future of the Browns they were "FORCED" into making that decision now because of the Roster Bonuses. This is not spin it is actually reality.
Why was Corey Williams not released or asked to re-negotiate? Rogers, Joe Thomas, Lewis???
"the team is dumping salary left and right everywhere they can, and even where they can't (there is no replacement for Shaffer any cheaper than what he is/was). "
Plain and simple...well not so plain - cause it doesn't explain the RB's that we paid.
Not so Simple cause we just did replace Shaffer and still might go one better from the draft?
I see it as a definite difference of opinion. You labeling yours right and mine wrong.
But as you know I catch a lot of heat when remotely do that...lol 
But I see my glass not only half full...but with the multiple dimensions needed to hold water Yours...sorry is one dimensional...and simply put is the position that just doesn't hold water.
Where's DC? Did I win? Whats the score?
Just talking football guys, just talking football.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
I hate these stories...It hasn't hit the Mainstream Media yet...I'll just put it here...Someone else can starta thread.. NFL Player Detained In Pedestrian's Death In Miami (Donte Stallworth)The Death Occurred At The Ferry Access Area Leading To The Exclusive Residences Of Fisher Island An NFL player reportedly stopped after a fatal hit with a pedestrian on the MacCarthur Causeway in Miami, according to Miami Beach police. An NFL player has been questioned after he accidentally drove into a pedestrian who died Saturday morning on the eastbound MacCarthur Causeway on Miami Beach, according to Det. Juan Sanchez of the City of Miami Beach. Donte Stallworth, 28, is an eight-year pro NFL wide receiver. He's played with the New England Patriots, and had an agreed to terms of a seven-year, $35-million contract with the Browns, $10-million of which is guaranteed. Stallworth's best overall season was in 2005, when he caught 70 passes for 945 yards and seven touchdowns as a member of the New Orlean Saints. According to the police report, the accident happened at the intersection of Fisher Island Drive and the MacCarthur Causeway. The Drive is where ferry access is provided to one of the most exclusive residences in America, Fisher Island. The victim's named has not yet been released. http://cbs4.com/local/donte.sallworth.macarthur.2.959162.html
Go Browns!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Posts: 8,015 |
I can only hope that the ped was at fault. If that person wasn't, and Stallworth did this, my God, how bad can this story continue to get not only for the public in general, but for Stallworth, and for the Browns.......
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030 |
I have a feeling Toad that DS will be released if he was a little bit at fault.......the public relations will be awefull. I hate it for this person's family most of all, but if it was an accident I feel real bad for DS as well.......I can only imagine.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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