Browns' new regime gets its first crack at QB debate: So what else is new? -- Bill Livingston by Bill Livingston/Plain Dealer Columnist Saturday April 04, 2009, 6:58 PM
CLEVELAND -- Whether the infatuation was deep, passing or only a scurrilous rumor, Jay Cutler is not a Browns quarterback now and won't be in the future.
The big personnel deal of the pre-draft season was interesting because Chicago is a famous franchise in NFL history, but one that has usually been forced to play without a competent quarterback. Now the Bears have one.
As for the Browns, also a famous franchise in NFL history, they have had the one-year comet that was Derek Anderson in 2007 and not much else since Bernie Kosar. Look up Vinny Testaverde's numbers if you think he was the reason behind the 1994 playoff berth.
The Browns are left to choose between Brady Quinn and Anderson. The question is whether anyone in the Browns' front office since the team's return could recognize an NFL quarterback, even if Peyton Manning's picture was on the side of every milk carton in Berea. Tim Couch, Kelly Holcomb, Jeff Garcia, Charlie Frye and Anderson were all either inconsistent, unprepared or overmatched. John Kuntz/The Plain DealerSo Eric Mangini and George Kokinis are unsure about the potential of Brady Quinn (and of Derek Anderson, for that matter). Around the Browns' headquarters in Berea, not knowing how to evaluate a quarterback has become a legacy that has long overshadowed the franchise, says Bill Livingston. Anderson won the job in the last training camp, then was victimized by Braylon Scissorhands. But Anderson got too many chances as the season nose-dived.
The deposed Romeo Crennel's loyalty to Anderson recalled Cavaliers coach Mike Brown's reliance on Sasha Pavlovic. In years past, in every fourth or fifth game Pavlovic would have a big night, and it would be enough to dissuade Brown from making a lineup change. Pavlovic's strengths were size and good defense. Brown made the Finals with the NBA's biggest team. He loves defense the way Crennel loved Anderson's rocket arm.
And so, long past the time a more rational man would have made a quarterback change, Crennel stayed the course.
Quinn is not the perfect package, other than in his personal background as a Browns fan and Notre Dame star. There are three passing levels -- out of the backfield, across the middle and the deep outs, flies and posts. Quinn is thought to be suspect on the deep balls.
Anderson made his name with the long ball, which set up everything else in 2007. He did it against bad teams, mainly, but his numbers were impressive. On timing patterns, however, when receivers hit in stride can pop big gains, his ball was often outside, high, or behind them.
But quarterbacking is more than that.
It is also more than the increased elusiveness Quinn would bring as a better athlete.
A commanding presence in the huddle is part of it. Kosar would not have hesitated to order Edwards to the bench when he got quarrelsome, or Kellen Winslow when he ran the wrong pattern. He was in charge. He had earned that respect.
Nobody enforced much of anything last season.
There is also the matter of poise. A quarterback can't seem flustered. He can't grab his helmet with his hands after interceptions and look distraught. He must radiate confidence. Quinn probably has more of that quality than Anderson.
There is a popular belief that reporters like to knock players off their pedestals. Actually, we like to see high expectations surpassed. Who hasn't enjoyed LeBron James or Tiger Woods?
What we root for, in the abstract, is a great story. Quinn is the better story. Given his chance, I think he will be the better quarterback too.
The Browns have made mistake after mistake after mistake since their rebirth in 1999, which is one reason in less than three weeks they will be picking in the top seven in the draft for the seventh time in 11 years.
They will add to their new legacy of being in a rudderless boat without sail adrift in the NFL ocean if they trade Brady Quinn to the Denver Broncos for one first-round draft choice and nothing more. Quinn is more valuable to them in a Browns uniform.
The Broncos are coached by Josh McDaniels, who runs the same offense Charlie Weis used when Weis was the Patriots' offensive coordinator. Quinn flourished in that offense under Weis at Notre Dame.
That's just great, but Browns general manager George Kokinis and Coach Eric Mangini are not in the business of propping up the Broncos. If McDaniels wants Quinn badly enough, he should have to cough up more than the 18th pick in the first round, or even the 12th pick.
The Broncos have both after trading Jay Cutler and a fifth-round draft pick to the Bears on Thursday for two first-round selections, a third-round pick and Kyle Orton. McDaniels reportedly preferred Quinn to Orton, so he might still try to pry Quinn away from the Browns.
First-round draft picks are valuable. But franchise quarterbacks are more valuable, and a starting quarterback should never be traded unless the team pawning him off is absolutely convinced he will never take his team to a Super Bowl.
You think the Falcons are happy they traded Brett Favre to the Packers for a second-round pick in 1992? How about the Buccaneers trading Steve Young to the 49ers in 1987 for a second- and a fourth-round draft choice because the Bucs drafted Vinny Testaverde and deemed Young a bust?
I'm not saying Quinn will turn into Favre or Young, and I do not know whether Quinn can take the Browns to a Super Bowl. But I don't understand how Kokinis and Mangini could know he won't.
According to various reports, the Browns tried to trade Quinn to the Broncos for Cutler, but they were beaten out by the Bears. At least they would have gotten a starting quarterback in that deal, and then the debate could begin about which quarterback was better.
But to trade Quinn for the 18th pick and feel good about it because the Browns took him with the 22nd pick two years ago? People seem to forget that deal swung by former general manager Phil Savage also cost the Browns their second-round pick, 36th overall, in 2007.
Quinn started only three games in the chaotic 2008 season and he broke the tip of the index finger on his throwing hand in the second. That is hardly a fair audition.
The pressure on Derek Anderson will be unbearable if Quinn is traded. Anderson is convinced the fans don't want him. He doesn't have Quinn's polish, he isn't a fashion model as Quinn is, he didn't go to Notre Dame (he went to Oregon State) and he wasn't a first-round draft choice. He did throw 29 touchdown passes in 2007, but that doesn't matter to fans either, apparently.
Anderson's ego is a consideration, but not a big part of this decision. I am an Anderson supporter, but he did not play well last year. And as for the Quinn-McDaniels-Weis connection, that is way overblown. Browns offensive coordinator Brian Daboll coached under Weis at New England, too.
Last year, the Ravens used the 18th pick in the draft on Joe Flacco, who as a rookie played as though he will be a very good quarterback for many years.
In 2007, the Bengals drafted cornerback Leon Hall 18th. In 2006, the Cowboys took Ohio State linebacker Bobby Carpenter with the 18th pick, and in 2005, the 18th player taken was defensive end Erasmus James by the Vikings.
Scout.com lists USC linebacker Clay Matthews Jr. as the 18th-best player in the 2009 draft. Even if he plays like his dad, I'd rather have the star quarterback.
But to trade Quinn for the 18th pick and feel good about it because the Browns took him with the 22nd pick two years ago? People seem to forget that deal swung by former general manager Phil Savage also cost the Browns their second-round pick, 36th overall, in 2007.
Browns offensive coordinator Brian Daboll coached under Weis at New England, too.
These are two excellent points. If Denver still wants Quinn, then it is going to cost the 12 plus a second or third. Many have said on here that if Quinn is such a good fit in Denver, why not a good fit in our offense?? Daboll comes from the same tree.
But to trade Quinn for the 18th pick and feel good about it because the Browns took him with the 22nd pick two years ago? People seem to forget that deal swung by former general manager Phil Savage also cost the Browns their second-round pick, 36th overall, in 2007.
Browns offensive coordinator Brian Daboll coached under Weis at New England, too.
These are two excellent points. If Denver still wants Quinn, then it is going to cost the 12 plus a second or third. Many have said on here that if Quinn is such a good fit in Denver, why not a good fit in our offense?? Daboll comes from the same tree.
I agree, but for some different reasoning--that is I don't want the kid traded at all,...(1) you don't just go writing people off. Give the kid a chance first. (2) I am under the impression Anderson didn't "win" the job in camp last year--he was annoited by Crennel,....I could be wrong about that. (3) Why give another AFC team what they need/want ? and finally (4) we keep talking about making /fitting players into systems instead of building around them--I believe that's the path we've been on since 99,....and I believe it's a major cause of locker room personality disorder.
Now if they do decide to trade Quinn, it needs to be the fulcrum of a lever that trips them straight to the Super Bowl. Anything else is just another rebuilding experiment, hoping we'll all wait another five years for it to pan out.
This is not really a debate to me. We know what we don't have in Anderson. If he goes to camp and shuts Quinn out, then fine. I can eat crow with the best of them. I still think that either one of them should be gone before then or, Anderson just needs to accept the role as the capable backup.
Quote: I am under the impression Anderson didn't "win" the job in camp last year--he was annoited by Crennel,....
That would have been Savage.
Maybe Crennel had a hand in it, but Savage was in front of the media before the season saying that DA earned it for what he did the previous season, and there would be no training camp battle for the starting job.
Its just so dang funny to read "Quinn is suspect on deep balls". Did anybody watch him at all in college? It's just so completely ignorant to state that, when if you watch, Quinn is going to take the check down every time. He didn't force throws in college, and he won't in the NFL.
I'm not saying he has a cannon arm, but that doesn't mean he can't get the ball down the field. For one, Chud cut the playbook way down, and two, Quinn wasn't gonna pull a DA and just throw into double coverage downfield.
If people wanna question Quinn's occasional inaccuracy or random misses, go for it. But this "he can't throw the deep ball" bs that has taken off since last season is hog wash.
I just hope to God, this bunch has one freaking brain cell, and they give Quinn a shot and don't fall for fool's gold Anderson.
Quote: I just hope to God, this bunch has one freaking brain cell, and they give Quinn a shot and don't fall for fool's gold Anderson.
+1
Although they won't fall for fool's gold in Anderson. If Anderson becomes our starter, it will have nothing to do with his skill set at all. If Quinn is gone, that means that while they probably liked him, they didn't like him enough to keep him and preferred what they got in return. That makes Anderson the starter by default - for now. It has nothing to do with how they feel about Anderson and everything to do with how they feel about Quinn. In that regard, I hope they do have half a brain cell and give the kid a chance.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
Thanks for the articles to bad Jeff S...just proved to be another incompetent reporter
"You think the Falcons are happy they traded Brett Favre to the Packers for a second-round pick in 1992?"
Yeah to bad the Falcons picked Favre with a 2nd round pick but as True Football Historians know the Packers spent a 1st round pick in trade for Favre.
Look all this comes down to this....Do M/K believe BQ is our Starting QB Now and into the Future? That is the question.
1. Did M/K think Cutler was a better QB for the Browns? Yes, who wouldn't, even Diam thinks its an obvious.
2. Did we shop BQ? No way actually we were the reason the 3 way deal wouldn't go through cause we weren't getting Cutler and we didn't feel Campbell and/or draft picks were fair compensation for BQ.
3. Will we trade BQ? As mentioned it will come down to the findings of M/K in their research and just cause US who only have the games as our data base think there is no answer. I guarantee you that M/K feel strongly one way or another and they don't have much question in their minds regarding what BQ will do!
4. DA??? Isn't involved and not even a variable. He might be thought of as a temp solution but we do not even consider him remotely as the Franchise QB and for that matter NO BODY ELSE IN THE NFL DOES EITHER!
5. If the powers to be M/K believe BQ not to be the answer - they will have a draft day trade all set up. One that nobody will know of and will be under the highest secrecy.
6. When we will know? When pick #5 rolls around. If Sanchez is still on the board - do we run up to the podium and pick him as our future franchise QB? If so soon we will hear about a trade involving BQ. If we pick another...means one thing M/K KNOW BQ IS THE GUY!!!
7. Why no trade before the draft? That is because the trade has one major part...us getting Sanchez. There is always the possibility that the Lions take Stafford and Seattle takes Sanchez. We will patiently wait till our pick cause there will be no trade involved with the 1-4 picks.
8. Anything we here about a BQ trade will be just media trying to fill their stories with intrigue and interest. Anything really going down would be as secret as the famous CHICKEN SALAD FORMULA
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: These are two excellent points. If Denver still wants Quinn, then it is going to cost the 12 plus a second or third.
While being a proponent of trading one of our QB's (Quinn has been my recent target because of his trade value) the move only works if the price is right. As it pertains to Quinn, "just" a 1st rounder isn't enough IMHO, though I feel less confident about that opinion now that one of the sorry Cleveland writers have parroted my belief I'd trade Quinn but just a 1st isn't enough. I can't possibly see us getting TWO 1st's. A 1st and a 2nd or a 1st and a high 3rd would probably do the trick for me.
Quote: Many have said on here that if Quinn is such a good fit in Denver, why not a good fit in our offense?? Daboll comes from the same tree.
And nobody in their right mind would refute that. Of course the problem is that they are convinced Quinn will be good, so trading him would be a mistake no matter what the price.
The talk of Quinn going to the Donks revolves around that idiot McDaniels' sucker for his own kind. If he's in love with Quinn and is willing to OVERPAY to get him, ship the guy off and be done with it. If he's not, keep Quinn and let him PROVE he's a starter. That's exactly what's going on right now, and that's as it should be.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: For one, Chud cut the playbook way down, and two, Quinn wasn't gonna pull a DA and just throw into double coverage downfield.
There's different types of passes, short, medium, long. During the games that I have seen Quinn play, he has not thrown medium or long passes. I'm talking 25 yards.
I didn't watch Quinn that much in college, but I saw highlight reels and he certainly was throwing the medium passes that i'm talking about, but he hasn't for the Browns.
That's why people say his long ball isn't there. He doesn't do it............ And I like the medium/deep passes, especially with Braylon Edwards since it's what he does best. So it's discouraging watching Quinn play and not seeing throws down field.
Which leads to your comments about how the playbook was cut in "half". Well why? He's got the same book as DA. During the season, both QBs take snaps in practice because don't throw the ball that much. Quinn worked with many of the first teamers during the preseason.
So was this Chud's mistake that he babied Quinn or was there reason AKA Quinn can't go deep
just thought I'd add this here...it could go in probably 5 different threads lol
Much has been said on claims of who the team prefers...but this is the first I read by real quotes not - I know cause of Inside info stuff
WINSLOW ENDORSES QUINN Posted April 3rd, 2009 by Marla Ridenour
Former Browns tight end Kellen Winslow believes quarterback Brady Quinn should get his chance to start this season for Cleveland, Winslow said Thursday on Sirius NFL radio. Winslow was traded to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in late February.
Asked who would be the better quarterback for the Browns in '09, Quinn or Derek Anderson, Winslow said, "I would say Brady Quinn. I love Derek Anderson. Great quarterback. It just didn’t work out. Brady Quinn is coming in, he has tremendous upside. Very calm, very mature and, I mean, give the guy a chance.
"What’s the big deal? I really don’t get it. This guy has worked his tail off. I bet you he is there working out right now. Just give him a chance. He's a leader, he's coming into his own. I really don’t get what’s the hard decision up there. My choice would be Brady Quinn."
While Winslow went to the Pro Bowl in 2007 largely based on Anderson's 29-touchdown season, which also earned Anderson a trip to Hawaii, Winslow believes it's Quinn's time.
"I don’t know if he is the better quarterback, I am just saying I think he is the guy for the future," Winslow said on Sirius. "Derek Anderson is a great quarterback, don’t get me wrong. He’s a Pro Bowler. I just think the quarterback of the future is Brady Quinn."
Winslow also had an opinion on wide receiver Braylon Edwards and the talk of him being traded to the New York Giants, which Browns general manager George Kokinis recently confirmed he explored.
Asked if he believes Edwards will play in Cleveland in 2009, Winslow said, "For some reason I don’t. I know Braylon would love to go to New York. The Giants would fit him to a 'T' and he would have so much fun up there. I know he loves Cleveland, but New York would be a great fit for him.
"He’s a city guy and, yeah, I know he would love it there."
“The SIRIUS Blitz” airs weekdays (11:00am - 3:00pm ET) exclusively on SIRIUS NFL Radio (on SIRIUS channel 124
Thought it was quite interesting cause its the first Quote of who should start from all be it an Ex-Starter but one who shows no animosity to the organization.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
That came out the same day the he did the interview - which I believe was a few days ago. It's just that Edwards was the hotter topic at the time.
General Response: Dean Smith has a famous quote about MJ that goes something like this "he wanted to get better and he had the ability to get better". I find it encouraging that Quinn exhibited the "ability to get better" as evidenced by his progression in college. In a lot of ways, I view this as a positive character trait. Whether that manifests itself in the NFL, we'll have to wait and see. But I do like the fact that there is a history there of progression. I think that is very important when projecting someone's success. Of course, everyone eventually reaches a level that tops out their confidence, but having that history is better than not having it.
Just a random thought. Turk's college montage made me think of that.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
IMO Quinn is already the starter, and the controversy is soon to come to an end. Anderson will be traded, i'll bet on it, and Quinn will show that he has what it takes. I believe many peoples opinion on Quinn is derived from hearsay, I think it is time to put our QB of the future on the field and end this neverending debate.
Turk thanks for the highlights, I hope they enlighten some to what Quinn brings to the table.
Quote: but this is the first I read by real quotes not - I know cause of Inside info stuff
A quote by a former player who's a bonifide idiot really doesn't tell us anything more than who that idiot prefers at QB.
I don't know which article it is, but a few days ago I read an article that says Anderson should be the starter.
So how much credence do I put in either article? Nada, zip, zilch.
We know what we know, which is that nobody in the organization has stated one guy is THE starter. We hear buzz from various media outlets regarding things about the Cutler deal, some with Quinn going to Denver, some with Cutler coming here. If the team TRULY believed Quinn was a franchise QB, they don't look at making the move. That doesn't mean he can't be, it means they don't feel in their heart-of-hearts that he's absolutely going to be great.
There isn't anything that Winslow can say about any topic which would make me stop and reconsider my position. Winslow was an idiot. His opinion holds no value to me.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: Asked who would be the better quarterback for the Browns in '09, Quinn or Derek Anderson, Winslow said, "I would say Brady Quinn.
Quote: "I don’t know if he is the better quarterback, I am just saying I think he is the guy for the future,"
All I can say is .... it'll play itself out, and I hope we come out the best way possible no matter who stays, goes, starts or sits.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
i don't think anyone is disputing that quinn played well in college. i also have no doubt that he has potential. he was a 1st round pick afterall. the problem i have, which i think is a legit concern, is he couldn't complete half of those throws in the nfl. i have only seen him complete maybe 1 or 2 throws beyond 20 yards. everytime he tried to complete a ball deep, it was way off mark. further, only one of those plays showed him reacting to pressure, which was around him. his nfl games clearly showed pressure up the middle will get him.
point being, saying this guy'll get us to the promised land will only lead to the inevitable couch-level disappointment. quinn can be good but i've been saying it since before he was drafted, this guy has the makings of a huge potential bust. at what other position would you take someone OVER the most basic needed ability for the position? am i saying arm strength is a must? no, but physically, for a qb, he's average at best in the nfl. do you take a runningback like jason wright simply he was so great in vision and pass protection while his actual running ability is just average, even if he had that great nfl commercial showing how he understood the plight of clevelanders? no, you don't.
having quinn fight for the job just seems like the best move, unless one gets traded.
Quote: physically, for a qb, he's average at best in the nfl.
Maybe or maybe not, but some people say the same thing about joe montana. i'm not saying Q will be the next Montana but there's a lot more to being a QB than arm strength. One positive physical trait BQ has is we KNOW he's mobile... plus he's very smart.
I know I'm starting to sound like Diam, but I can't wait until Brady has a REAL opportunity to show us what he has.
like i said, being physically average isn't necessarily a bad thing. what i focus on, is that he's been told to "take what the defense gives him" since college and as a result, he looks for the check-down. because of that, i'd argue his ability to connect on the longer passes (15 yards and up) has not been developed enough. you can get away with some of that against opponents like army but when you're playing in the nfl, the margins for error are just too slim.
quinn is more mobile than DA, that's for sure but the scouting reports posted here said that he was average in athleticism. i think we lose perspective because of how immobile DA is in comparison. if you REALLY want to talk about montana mobility, i'd argue frye is much closer than quinn. frye is a natural runner with great evasiveness. quinn's "mobility" is only training to make up for being average, jmho.
the thing with quinn is, we ASSUME he's smart because of what we're told about weiss and junk.
all this said, for cleveland fans' sake, i really hope quinn wins the battle and pans out because i don't think we can have such a large group believe in one individual as much as we have in quinn. i can't remember the last time the fanbase felt SO STRONGLY about one player, especially at qb but i have my reservations and his starts, even his "untouchable" denver game and especially not the bills/texans game (even with injury) and the 3rd preseason game against the lions, do not address them.
"A quote by a former player who's a bonifide idiot really doesn't tell us anything more than who that idiot prefers at QB."
Spoken like a true DA guy lol
"I don't know which article it is, but a few days ago I read an article that says Anderson should be the starter."
Sorry no such article existed....this is what was said by McGinest: "Based on experience and what he's done in the past. Derek Anderson should be the starter at this point."
And is there one BQ supporter that would not agree (well some will not of course)....Based on Experience and what he has accomplished as a starter DA should be the starter...he then went on to say what BQ has to offer and its all centered around the "FUTURE" not the past.
But actually McG was very diplomatic (he might go into Calif. politics )
He stated how both could be the starter. Based on History in the NFL DA, based on future McG states of BQ if he keeps on working hard like he is now... "will be a starting quarterback and productive quarterback in the league."
But I see you will pooh pooh somebody who actually has caught balls from and been in the huddle of both as an "idiot" and his opinion don't count.
You spin things the way you wish...not the way it is.
And some more gobbidy gook about flim flam talk on the Cutler trade thing means that we really don't think BQ is our QB...and just where does that put DA btw when not a soul would discuss DA in any deals regarding starting QBs...of course that means nothing to you.
Cutler is a special young established QB. Mangini looking to trade BQ and get Cutler is not a vote of a lack of confidence in BQ. Its just being real.
"There isn't anything that Winslow can say about any topic which would make me stop and reconsider my position. His opinion holds no value to me."
Of course I guarantee you if he came out and stated - I don't know what they are thinking up there, DA should be the starter. You would have jumped all over it as proof!!!
His opinions holds no value to you...there is a statement of guilt at least. Nothing is valid unless it mirrors your opinion. Cause we don't have facts...those must be thrown out the window...we only go on SPIN where your opinions are concerned. You really think the Browns fans here are that stupid - you're slipping and getting to obvious in you Spin.
So now we got Sam Ruttigliano and KW2 stating BQ should be the QB. And that is all. A very diplomatic McG who gave reasons why both could be our starter.
Thems the facts...you wish to call them Idiots and your opinion should rule in their stead...well after all you football connection is much grander than those. You threw the ball around in your back yard
JMHMocking your spin
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
IF I were a true "DA guy" you might be on to something.
But I'm not, so you're not *L*
Just for your benefit, I'll repeat myself for the umpteenth time: I'm for an open competition. May the best man win.
Quote: Sorry no such article existed....this is what was said by McGinest: "Based on experience and what he's done in the past. Derek Anderson should be the starter at this point."
McGinnest is the antithesis of Winslow in terms of being an idiot. However, his opinion holds no more value than Winslow's. He doesn't know any more than you or I do if Quinn is ready, and therefore, his statement that Anderson should be the starter "right now" means nothing.
A QB competition will show who's supposed to be the guy. Not Winslow, not McGinnest, not you, not me, and not any of the coaches.
Quote: But I see you will pooh pooh somebody who actually has caught balls from and been in the huddle of both as an "idiot" and his opinion don't count.
I can give you quotes from Maurice Clarett about various people in the Ohio State huddle.
He's still an idiot
Quote: You spin things the way you wish...not the way it is.
The only spin here revolves around your spinning of my quotes.
Taken for what they actually mean, which was as plain as day, is that no player can make a claim that this guy or that guy should be the starter. Just because Winslow caught passes from one or the other doesn't mean he's qualified to know who's supposed to be the QB, just as McGinnest's opinion towards Anderson doesn't mean anything.
What I said had no hidden meanings or agendas. Sorry to shoot your little agenda theory out of the air old chap
Quote: Cutler is a special young established QB. Mangini looking to trade BQ and get Cutler is not a vote of a lack of confidence in BQ. Its just being real.
'Nuff said. (Now cry me a river at how a laughing smiley is insulting to you )
Quote: Of course I guarantee you if he came out and stated - I don't know what they are thinking up there, DA should be the starter. You would have jumped all over it as proof!!!
Considering I didn't jump all over it when McGinnest backed Anderson, you've just been proven wrong.
You'll undoubtedly attempt to go look it up. Please, feel free. I'll wait
Quote: His opinions holds no value to you...there is a statement of guilt at least. Nothing is valid unless it mirrors your opinion.
@ your poor application of the word "guilt."
My opinion has been well-established as being for a QB competition. NOT for Anderson being the starter.
The only application of guilt here is your apparent inability to read
Of course when you're wearing your Brady Quinn underwear, you can't see reality, only pro-Quinn bias
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: Which leads to your comments about how the playbook was cut in "half". Well why?
A lot of teams do that with young Qb's in their early starts. NE did it way back with Tom Brady and again with Matt Cassell. Very limited playbook for the 1st 3-4 games then opened things up. Pittsburgh did it with Roethlisbergr his rookie year. When the steelers had a passing play Ben had one side of the field to look at. If he didn't have an open receiver he was to dump it off or run or throw it away.
I don't know where to find this but I think it would be an interesting stat if anyone can. How many passes/game are completed more than 25 yards downfield? And I am not talking pass plays that gain more than 25 yards (caught 10 yards down field then 30 yards of RAC) I am talking about passes that are caught more than 25 yards downfield. NFL average/game? Average/game for Peyton Manning and a few other top notch Qbs?
I have no idea but my suspicion is that is will be surprisingly low.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
You're right, and there's even more to it than that.
Quinn can't make the deep throws that Anderson can. That's no secret, which is why some of the playbook was removed.
HOWEVER, Anderson can't move around like Quinn, which is why the bootleg plays suddenly found their way back into the huddle once Quinn was put back in.
Simply put, Quinn didn't have a full grasp of the playbook so some of it was removed. That's simple operation procedure for new QB's.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Vinny's arm was better than Bernies so was Pagels. Sipes arm was also not the greatest. If a QB has to throw a ball more than 50 yards his progression was most likely slow. Most deep balls are thrown 35-50 yards and I watched Quinn throw the ball that far downfield time and time again in College. The question may be the deep middle and out throws. In a possesion type offense Quinn should be the choice due to the fact that he will have the greater skill at moving the chains.
If DA is the guy I will support him though because ultimately I am a Browns fan. Ten years from now both BQ and DA will be gone and we will all still be Browns fans. Go Brownies!!!!
Even though I would prefer Anderson, I see things like this
If Mangini and the rest of the staff want Quinn, then let it be known, commit to Quinn as the starter, and try to ship Anderson out of here for a 3rd or 4th rd pick and be done with it.
I only like Anderson because he was the 1st QB we have had here since Bernie who gave us a reason to cheer....the only QB to have a winning season here since 1994(Vinny had a winning season in 94, but our Defense was superb that year under bellyache)
I mean, If this organization choose Quinn, i'll be ready to get behind Quinn 100% because hs ia brown period
i just don't think all this limbo and leaving things open is in the best interests of our organization longterm
I mean even though i feel Anderson was not given a fair shake here, Quinn has yet to even really be given a chance at all....
The bottom line is...no matter which QB we choose heading into the coming season, be it Quinn or Anderson we MUST stick it out for at-least 3 years...regardless of what happens, we can't be calling for Quinn or Anderson's head every week...we need to let this thing ride out for a change
Im sick of revolving QB, regardless of which one is picked we need to sit back, hush, save our criticism and just let it ride out
Of course I think Anderson wants out IMO...I don't blame him...I feel sorry for Quinn, if we have a losing season next year, 90% of the fans will be calling for his...it won't matter how many balls are dropped, or how bad our defense is, or any of that
I have NEVER seen a city in my entire life that runs QB out of town like Cleveland does...
I mean Cleveland would run Joe Montana, Troy Aikmen and Terry Bradshaw out of town on a rail....you look at Aikmen and Bradshaws first few years in the league...they were downright awful...they would never have gotten a chance to grow here....
I am not saying Anderson is the answer, but he COULD be...Quinn also COULD be the Answer....but Anderson has proven that when the team around him comes to play, he can get the job done....
Anderon threw 4 TD passes against the Steelers in the 2nd game in 2007....our Defense blew that game...you can fault Anderson all you want on the short passing game, but what more do you want from your QB? He threw 4 TD's for petes sake, he did more than his share...that is a Peyton Manning type of day...its not Anderson Fault that Wille McGinest let Ben run 50 yards untouched for a TD.....
I will say, the Cinci game was all Anderson...those INTS killed us, but again...had our defense did their job in Pittsburgh that game would have been moot.
in 2007 Anderson did enough and put us in position to beat the Steelers....our D like the sieve they are blew it for us
Anderson had us in the position to make the playoffs....all our D had to do was preserve a 24 point lead...and they couldn't even do that.
Regardless if 2007 would have been Quinn instead of Anderson and Quinn would have had a simlair outing, everyone would be calling for Anderson
I just want us to settle on 1 QB, regardless of if its Quinn or Anderson and be done with it....i will support whoever is picked
I am just saying, Brady Quinn(Any QB for that matter) who comes to Cleveland is nuts...If i was coming out of the draft, and Cleveland Picked me, I love my Browns, but I would pull a John Elway and refuse to play for this franchise...I know how we treat our own
Brady Quinn or Anderson, regardless of which one is chosen will no get a fair chance here, not because of Mangini, or Koke, or Junior, but because the fans will run him out of town on a rail in less than 2 years.....
Quinn will not get the 3 full years of starting he needs to grow into a QB....Just because he has been on the bench for 2 years don't mean squat, the kid hasn't played...he is essentially a rookie...but he will not be treated as one, and he will be crucified because of it.
Good luck Brady, i will support you if your the starter, but I feel sorry for you, I trul;y do....
I don't think anything is in limbo. I think Mangini knows who the QB is going to be, but if he expresses that the odd man out loses value. These guys have got it together. It may not show this year, but it will.
IMO The organization has probably allready settled on going with Quinn...im sure the rest of the league knows this..out of 100% the probability of Mangini going with Anderson is less than 10%....they will most likely go with Quinn...which is fine, just pick one and be done with it
While i feel Anderson is a good QB, his play last year(the team as a whole) devalued him tremendously....we will be lucky to get a 3rd or a 4th for him regardless...as a matter of fact, we may only get a 5th for him....he has lost that much value in one year.
This team has more pressing needs...we should take the Giants up on their offer...their 1st rd pick and their 3rd pick for Braylon Edwards, get him out of here and be done with it
We net a late 1st rder to be used on the D, and we will have a shot at Crabtree or another WR in the 1st...or better yet, grabbing a Shutdown Corner in Jenkins, and drafting a LB with the Giants 1st, follwed up witha WR or another LB with our 1st 2nd rd pick......then WR or vice versa
This team needs quite a few holes filled, that is evident, and it seems Mangini and koke want to use the draft to do this...that is the reason we didn't go after any big FA
I think Edwards will be out of here, since the Ginats cut Plax we will be theor only options...the Cards will want "much more" for Boldin then we will for Edwards...Boldin had a very good year last year...Edwards did not...Boldins asking price will be much higher, it would also cost the Giants a hefty sum to move up in the draft to get a position to take a top receiver
So that leaves us....I personally would like to see us trade Edwards to the Giants for a 1st and a 3rd
then we should ship the #5 pick and a 3rd to the Cards for Boldin....we would still have a 1st rd, and we would be getting a good receiver...the #5 pick is worth more then the Giants # 29
That should be the route we should take, Boldin is twice the Receiver Bray Bray is.,..much better hands, runs better routes, etc...Edwards can't hold a candle to Boldin...and that is who we should be targeting
Boldin wants out of Card land...we can take him off their hands for the #5 and a 3rd...we would still have the Giants #29 in the 1st, and would would get our ACe receiver we need for Quinn and the Ginats would get what they want, and the Cards would have the #5 pick to replace Boldin and be rid of a headache...it makes sense,
Edwards is a perfect fit for NY
Boldin is a perfect fit here for the Weis Offense..trading with the G-Men will put us in position to ante up to the Cards with the appropriate compensation to land Boldin and it needs to be done before its too late.
Kind of convoluted but it actually does make sense for everyone (us and the Giants for sure the question for the cards is that Boldin has such a team favorable contract).
But when does anything that makes too much sense actually ever happen?
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
Quote: Even though I would prefer Anderson, I see things like this
If Mangini and the rest of the staff want Quinn, then let it be known, commit to Quinn as the starter, and try to ship Anderson out of here for a 3rd or 4th rd pick and be done with it.
i just don't think all this limbo and leaving things open is in the best interests of our organization longterm
I mean even though i feel Anderson was not given a fair shake here, Quinn has yet to even really be given a chance at all....
The bottom line is...no matter which QB we choose heading into the coming season, be it Quinn or Anderson we MUST stick it out for at-least 3 years...regardless of what happens, we can't be calling for Quinn or Anderson's head every week...we need to let this thing ride out for a change
Im sick of revolving QB, regardless of which one is picked we need to sit back, hush, save our criticism and just let it ride out
Of course I think Anderson wants out IMO...I don't blame him...I feel sorry for Quinn, if we have a losing season next year, 90% of the fans will be calling for his...it won't matter how many balls are dropped, or how bad our defense is, or any of that
I have NEVER seen a city in my entire life that runs QB out of town like Cleveland does...
I mean Cleveland would run Joe Montana, Troy Aikmen and Terry Bradshaw out of town on a rail....you look at Aikmen and Bradshaws first few years in the league...they were downright awful...they would never have gotten a chance to grow here....
I am not saying Anderson is the answer, but he COULD be...Quinn also COULD be the Answer....but Anderson has proven that when the team around him comes to play, he can get the job done....
Regardless if 2007 would have been Quinn instead of Anderson and Quinn would have had a simlair outing, everyone would be calling for Anderson
I just want us to settle on 1 QB, regardless of if its Quinn or Anderson and be done with it....i will support whoever is picked
I am just saying, Brady Quinn(Any QB for that matter) who comes to Cleveland is nuts...If i was coming out of the draft, and Cleveland Picked me, I love my Browns, but I would pull a John Elway and refuse to play for this franchise...I know how we treat our own
Brady Quinn or Anderson, regardless of which one is chosen will no get a fair chance here, not because of Mangini, or Koke, or Junior, but because the fans will run him out of town on a rail in less than 2 years.....
Quinn will not get the 3 full years of starting he needs to grow into a QB....Just because he has been on the bench for 2 years don't mean squat, the kid hasn't played...he is essentially a rookie...but he will not be treated as one, and he will be crucified because of it.
Good luck Brady, i will support you if your the starter, but I feel sorry for you, I trul;y do....
Do you really believe the stuff you posted above regarding QBs? Wow.
First of all, Montana, Bradshaw, & Aikman actually had a viable career in the NFL.
Secondly, which QB - that was "run out of town by the fans" - actually had a viable career? Here...or anywhere else for that matter?
Couch? He was done and hasn't played since.. Holcomb? No. Frye...nope. Anderson? Who has run him out of here? Garcia? Butch screwed that up...not the fans.
Now you say the "debate" between DA and BQ is a bad thing for the Browns? Why?! Did you stop to think that maybe...just maybe...Mangini really hasn't chosen one over the other yet. Ya know...he hasn't seen either one of them in a mandatory camp/practice setting.
Do I think DA will ever have a viable career? No...I do not. But, last I checked, I won't be making that decision.
This crap about how the fans run a player out of town is ridiculous.
Let the new guys figure out what they want to do...they might actually want to see what they've got before the trade or commit to a guy.
Quote: First of all, Montana, Bradshaw, & Aikman actually had a viable career in the NFL.
Just to clear up a little error.. Montana was a winner pretty much from day one.. Bradshaw sucked at first and was often pulled for Terry Hanratty.. Aikman and the boys lose 15 games his first year.. then started to look good after that.
So two of them didn't start out very well. But interestingly enough, when those teams got more talent to put around them,, that's when Aikman and Bradshaw really blossomed.
As for Cleveland fans running QB's out of town,, that can only happen if you have weak management and weak coaching. Believe me, I lived outside of pittsburgh when Bradshaw was drafted and frankly there were calls for Nolls head if he didn't put in Hanratty..
Noll was tough, stuck with bradshaw and only used hanratty to teach bradshaw a lesson.. but he knew who was his winner... It didn't hurt that the chief (art rooney) was a solid guy with faith in Noll...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Error? Who are you replying too? I said those guys HAD VIABLE CAREERS. I did not say they did not struggle early on...their teams sucked early on.
The POINT is that they actually became good/very good/great NFL QBs.
Making it even simpler:
Not one QB who left Cleveland (new Browns) went on to have a viable NFL career as a starting QB in the league.
The guys who have left Cleveland were either "done" or never amounted to anything much after leaving here.
It's not like fan sentiment made Holcomb predictable or blew-out Couch's arm.
Garcia is a possible exception...but I think he was "gone" before we knew what hit us...us fans that is.
I'm trying to get people like KOB to understand that the reason we have gone through so many QBs is that we have had so many bad QBs...and a scheme that did not fit the only "good" QB we DID have...it's got ZERO to do with the fans running a guy out of town.
Maybe...just maybe...waiting to see what we have - or what others are willing to give up for something we have - is a smart thing to do.
Some people make this so much more difficult than it really is. (Not necessarily you...at least not in THIS thread anyway. )
Thanks for the history lesson (I should say redundant reminder) though on the QBs mentioned.
Quote: I'll take that bet. Next time you're in Vegas, you'll owe me a beer.
Actually, if you read carefully you'll see that I didn't say "I'll bet". But I'll buy you a beer the next time I'm in Vegas anyway. Of course, I haven't been in Vegas in 30 years so it's possible that you die of thirst before I get there.
Seriously, though, I don't get the feeling of love for either QB coming out of Berea since the new sheriff hit town. What I do think is that Mangini would have no problem whatsoever trading both guys, picking up Sanchez with one of those picks (maybe even #5) and getting a veteran like Leftwich (or in an ironic twist Garcia) to bridge any gap that there may be between now and the "Sanchez era".
It may be a goofy idea. But it's not goofy enough not to be possible.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I'd trade Quinn but just a 1st isn't enough. I can't possibly see us getting TWO 1st's. A 1st and a 2nd or a 1st and a high 3rd would probably do the trick for me. 
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