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Still, to me it doesn't make it right.
Maybe not, but in war the goal is to win, and in war, there really are no rules. The winner makes the rules.
I would rather win. If that means ripping off toenails with pliers, pulling teeth, nailing someones tongue to a board, or just plain chopping off their heads, I would rather do that than lose and follow someone elses rules.
But, that is just my opinion.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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You cannot honestly be saying that the reality is that it is okay for the Government to break into your house. Strap you down, beat you (which could be construed as torture),and leave you to die and it is alright because the Government thought that it would save lives.
If I was on record as saying I knew a terrorist attack was going to happen, and I was telling people "wait and see" ... then I hope so. 
I'm sure families of 2000 some dead people would take great comfort in your consolations, if you were to say ... "Well we had a guy in custody who knew this was going to happen, but at least we didn't stoop to torturing him to get the info out ahead of time!"
Those 2000 peoples families might be mad, but what about the other 4 billion people in the world. How many of the them would follow the US into battle to eradicated the evil that perpetrated the attack.
That is what we had after 9/11. That is what we lost when started torturing and invaded Iraq for all the wrong reasons. Once we stepped over that line the world stopped following.
There is a balance sheet. I do not deny that you can gain some intel and prevent attacks by torturing. But if comes with a cost.
just as not torturing has benefits, but comes with a cost as well, as you pointed out in your example.
You cannot simply point out the benefits of one side and ignore the downsides of that same side while simultaneously ignoring the benefits of the other side of the debate and only pointing out its downsides.
There are problems and merits to both sides of the debate. Both sides can make good points, but for me I think that the US gains more by not torturing than by torturing.
with that. I am out as I have to get some work done.
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As far as I'm concerned, if they have a bona fide terrorist in custody, they could make him "Shiek Eunich" for as much as I'd care.
Personally, I'd tell them that afterwards I was going to bury his dead body in a pile of pig remains.
For those who say that the US is so evil ..... the response to 9-11 was actually pretty mild and measured. If we were the "evil", "fly off the handle" bullies some portray us to be, we'd have nuked Afghanistan ...... and Pakistan ..... Saudi Arabia ..... Iran ... Iraq ...... Syria ...... and every other state that sponsors terrorism. We'd then work on diagonall drilling to get all of the world's oil for ourself by right of conquest ......
Oh ..... and Chavez would be a cinder as well.
There are many nations on this Earth who should thank their respective God that the US has always been temperate in her military responses. If she wasn't ..... the Middle East would be Israel and a whole lot of flat, unihabited land.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Those 2000 peoples families might be mad, but what about the other 4 billion people in the world.
Frankly ....I DON'T CARE!!!! They are not Americans. Sorry to sound so blunt...but it works the other way as well...you think A single person in another country cares one bit about the US of A when it comes down to a them or us situation(no matter how trite the issue)???
You sound like an insecure teenage girl worried about what the "clique" at school thinks about her....
And frankly what we have to worry about is protecting ourselves as #1 priority and also about doing what is right...and allowing 2000+ people to die is not protecting ourselves...and it is not right when we have it in our power to prevent it. And to allow it happen because you're worried about what the "clique" thinks about you is frankly.....rather disgusting.
And before you try to get on your high horse....I am NOT talking about a get mine and screw everyone else attitude....I am talking about not allowing everyones outlook upon you drive your decisions which is what you are proposing.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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To each his own Peen.,,
I still say that if you are of the fundimental belief that torture is wrong, then it's wrong.. Period.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The problem we have in this country is to many people have replaced the backbone with a wishbone.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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All Pro
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If your daughter were kidnapped, and being raped, would it still be wrong to waterboard someone who knew where she was in order to prevent her from being murdered?
You are a stronger man than I.
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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Maybe we should try a different tactic. Talk about torture! Watching the Browns go game after game without out a TD was about as bad as it gets and so far this years Indians bullpen is a close second. 
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Are you suggesting we should just surrender? Because it seems to me that there is nothing much at all we could do, short of surrender, that will appease them.
We could get the hell out of the Middle East and never look back. That might work.
Oh, wait, but then they'd 'follow us home'. 
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Yes, that would just solve everyones problems....  Come on phil I thought you were better than our short sighted politicians in our govt.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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When you find a replacement for their oil, THEN we can get the hell out of the middle east. Until that time, however, we very, very, VERY much NEED to be THERE.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Those 2000 peoples families might be mad, but what about the other 4 billion people in the world.
Frankly ....I DON'T CARE!!!! They are not Americans. Sorry to sound so blunt...but it works the other way as well...you think A single person in another country cares one bit about the US of A when it comes down to a them or us situation(no matter how trite the issue)???
You sound like an insecure teenage girl worried about what the "clique" at school thinks about her....
And frankly what we have to worry about is protecting ourselves as #1 priority and also about doing what is right...and allowing 2000+ people to die is not protecting ourselves...and it is not right when we have it in our power to prevent it. And to allow it happen because you're worried about what the "clique" thinks about you is frankly.....rather disgusting.
And before you try to get on your high horse....I am NOT talking about a get mine and screw everyone else attitude....I am talking about not allowing everyones outlook upon you drive your decisions which is what you are proposing.
You missed my point entirely.
I will try and simplify it. We have already seen what torturing has done. It has prevented an attack on the US. for this example we will say it saved 2000 American lives.
But what did torture cost us. How many allies withdrew their support from us. How many fewer troops do we have in Iraq as a result. How many people looked at America and the fact that we tortured their country men and beleive if that was true then the rest of the other lies must be true and joined the terrorists.
How many more Americans Soilders will die because they have less foreign troops supporting them and will have more enemies to face?
On the flip side. Say we didn't torture and this attack on LA did happen. It would be tragic, but what do you think the response would be from the world. With the moral high ground more nations would probably support the wars.
With out the reinforcement that the Terrorist propoganda is correct and that America only wishes to torture you and take your land. How many fewer people would join the terrorists.
Quite possibly we could tragically lose 2000 American Citizens, but we could save how many more American Soilders by having more support and ending the war sooner.
As you guys keep saying. Some times you have to do what is difficult and what no one wants to think about.
Call me antipatriotic, call me an Idiot. But I would sacrifice 2000 American Citizens to save the lives of just as many American Soilders and hundreds of thousands of people world wide.
And Peen. I think it would take a whole lot more backbone to sacrifice American Citizens to save lives then it does to take the easy way out and throw out your belief system and compromise your ideals for shortsighted gains.
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That is what we had after 9/11. That is what we lost when started torturing and invaded Iraq for all the wrong reasons. Once we stepped over that line the world stopped following.
Don't confuse the lose of support for Iraq and terrorist torturing as the same thing. I'm sure most other countries have their own dark secrets. Well except France maybe.  Oh, and maybe Canada.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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When you find a replacement for their oil, THEN we can get the hell out of the middle east. Until that time, however, we very, very, VERY much NEED to be THERE.
Question: How freakin' sweet is it going to be when we find an alternative source of energy that can be produced right here (or with one of our close allies like the UK or Canada) and we can just say to the Middle East "Hey, thanks for nothing you arrogant [jerks]. You'll be getting no more money from us."
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Are you suggesting we should just surrender? Because it seems to me that there is nothing much at all we could do, short of surrender, that will appease them.
We could get the hell out of the Middle East and never look back. That might work.
Oh, wait, but then they'd 'follow us home'.
We tried a similar tact after WWI ....... and that worked well ....... right up till Pearl Harbor was bombed .....
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Sadly, fuel is not the only need for oil. We have a lot more work to do to be totally free of the need for oil, but alternative fuel puts a huge dent in our oil needs, and most likely leaves us able to supply ourselves.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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You're right. But to put a dent in those bastards' pocketbook makes me smile, no matter how big/small the dent is.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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"On the flip side. Say we didn't torture and this attack on LA did happen. It would be tragic, but what do you think the response would be from the world. With the moral high ground more nations would probably support the wars."
My,my,my.
If you truely believe that,I would strongly suggest seeing a professional.Your desire for acceptence is out weighing your basic thought processes.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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To answer your questions...we lost ZERO support....How do I know this????? Because this is just getting out now.....
Lets turn this around....Now much support are we losing by NOT doing this?????If people find out that we allowed 2000+ people to die when we could have stopped it....or that we are not willing to do what is necessary....how willing are people and other countries going to be to follow us when we have to go to the extreme of a war? How many more attacks would have come if Al Queda continued to have success with these types of attacks....how many more people would have to die???? Just who are you trying to save????
So instead of saving 2000 lives you want to LET THEM DIE so you can use them for propoganda purposes????
I am not going to call you anti patriotic....I can think of some different terms....but you wouldn't like them....But you would allow innocents to die in order to save those who have chosen a job where they put themselves into harms way in order to save those who you are allowing to die?????? Is that what you are saying????
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Exactly !....The terrorist keep insisting that they hate us now and will always hates us....They also have no problem torturing us whenever they get the chance and would cut of our head if they could....That said  ....Why should we be concerned with our waterboarding of these individuals ?....** I have this theory that America always wants to be seen as better than other nations....We will clearly torture the terrorist , but at the same time lie and say that we don't....I just can 't understand why we just don't let it be known that Yes ! , IF you threaten our nation we will hunt you down and kill your @ss !....IF by chance you are captured , you can expect to be tortured until you reveal the information that we want.....We need to be less like Greece and more like Rome....IF I had my way , I would make it so that every time these terrorist would see the American Flag , they would crap themselves out of Fear !.....
The Mammal
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If you truely believe that,I would strongly suggest seeing a professional.Your desire for acceptence is out weighing your basic thought processes.
What desire of acceptance. I don't give a ... what other people or countries think. But I do think that it would be a whole lot easier to win the war on terror with the support of other countries than without their help.
BY the way. If you are going to call me stupid and bash me. You could at the very least bash my argument or bash something I said. . Playing off another posters criticism of my views who had no critical thinking skills and could not comprehend what i was saying, does not say much for your processing skills, nor your ability to string together coherent and relevant thoughts.
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If your daughter were kidnapped, and being raped, would it still be wrong to waterboard someone who knew where she was in order to prevent her from being murdered?
You are a stronger man than I.
Wrong is still wrong... but in this case, I'd be doing a whole lotta wrong.... and if caught, I'd accept the punishment... because,, after all, wrong is still wrong.
I'm guessing I'm no stronger than you
Last edited by Damanshot; 04/22/09 03:15 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No critical thinking skills????
and you don't care what other countries think...yet your ENTIRE argument revolves around that very premise about what other countries think....
Someone certainly needs help in the critical thinking skils department...but I think you had better look in the mirror in order to find him....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I have this theory that America always wants to be seen as better than other nations
I see it much as a person that wants to have a nice steak, a lamb chop or a piece of chicken -- and then is revolted when they find out what has to occur for them to get it.
"What? You mean an animal has to get killed for me to have meat?!!??? Holy Crap, I didn't know that... why doesn't someone tell us this stuff!"
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Counseling is not a bad thing.I have been to many,D&A,marriage,anger management,sexual perversions.
The 1st step is always recognizing you have a problem.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I will try and simplify it. We have already seen what torturing has done. It has prevented an attack on the US. for this example we will say it saved 2000 American lives.
But what did torture cost us. How many allies withdrew their support from us.
Yea, I'd like to be tapped into the phone call when France or Germany or Russia gets attacked and our President calls and the conversation goes like this...
President: Just wanted to call to offer the condolences of my country on the deaths of 2000 citizens of your country at the hands of the awful terrorists.
Foreign Leader: Thank you, this attack came as a complete shock to us, we are all saddened, but we will get through.
President: I understand it was a shock to you, ummmm.. of course our government knew it was going to happen 2 months ago but that information was obtained through waterboarding so we thought you would not approve so we didn't say anything.
Foreign Leader: 
yebat' Putin
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And Peen. I think it would take a whole lot more backbone to sacrifice American Citizens to save lives then it does to take the easy way out and throw out your belief system and compromise your ideals for shortsighted gains.
I am not throwing out my belief system, nor compromising anything.
If you want to think you are on the high ground and are willing to sacrifice your family and friends, have at it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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The problem we have in this country is to many people have replaced the backbone with a wishbone.
But who is it without backbone? It is all a matter of perspective. I see those with backbone as those that stand by principle and are willing to accept the consequences. The wishbone types I see as folks that hold government to a lower standard on premise that they're only doing what is needed to protect us.
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If I have to protect my house, reckon, I'll lower my standards as much as I feel is necessary. Wouldn't you?
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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The problem we have in this country is to many people have replaced the backbone with a wishbone.
But who is it without backbone? It is all a matter of perspective. I see those with backbone as those that stand by principle and are willing to accept the consequences. The wishbone types I see as folks that hold government to a lower standard on premise that they're only doing what is needed to protect us.
In all honesty, I don't understand the point you are trying to convey in the second portion of your comment.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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To answer your questions...we lost ZERO support....How do I know this????? Because this is just getting out now.....
Not true. There have been claims that we have been torturing at ABU Graib and Gitmo for atleast two years.
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Lets turn this around....Now much support are we losing by NOT doing this?????If people find out that we allowed 2000+ people to die when we could have stopped it...
If torture was the only way to find out then yes. But the assumption that torture was the only way to find out is false.
In the scenario. There would be no conscious decision by the US to allow them to die. They would dies because we did not catch threat through means other than torture.
One cannot make a conscious decision to allow something to happen if they do not know it is going to happen.
What I am suggesting could happen has already happened. How much support did the Bush Administration lose because they did not torture people to learn about 9/11 and stop it before it happened?
If my memory is correct the world rallied around the US and supported her in the initial fight against the taliban.
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.or that we are not willing to do what is necessary....how willing are people and other countries going to be to follow us when we have to go to the extreme of a war? How many more attacks would have come if Al Queda continued to have success with these types of attacks....how many more people would have to die???? Just who are you trying to save????
So instead of saving 2000 lives you want to LET THEM DIE so you can use them for propoganda purposes????
That is why I said it would be tragic. It would be horrible and something that I would not want to happen.
I used it because it was the trade off for not torturing that everyone in the thread was using.
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I am not going to call you anti patriotic....I can think of some different terms....but you wouldn't like them....But you would allow innocents to die in order to save those who have chosen a job where they put themselves into harms way in order to save those who you are allowing to die?????? Is that what you are saying????
I am saying that if I had to choose between sacrificing one person and 10. I would sacrifice the one. i would do everything humanly possible to not have to do it, but that would be my decision.
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I am saying that if I had to choose between sacrificing one person and 10. I would sacrifice the one. i would do everything humanly possible to not have to do it, but that would be my decision.
Then why not sacrifice the one TERRORIST by torturing him? And mind you, this torture is not even physical. I'd do anything, and I mean anything, to get information out of these scumbags in order to save the lives of American citizens.
#gmstrong
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I am saying that if I had to choose between sacrificing one person and 10. I would sacrifice the one. i would do everything humanly possible to not have to do it, but that would be my decision.
Then why not sacrifice the one TERRORIST by torturing him? And mind you, this torture is not even physical. I'd do anything, and I mean anything, to get information out of these scumbags in order to save the lives of American citizens.
LOL...that's a inconvenient question.....
See, the problem is these guys want to talk philosophy.
It really isn't worth getting in to the debate.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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But what did torture cost us. How many allies withdrew their support from us.
None that I'm aware of. Most countries withdrew their support because of one of three reasons: 1) They had illegal deals with Saddam in-place before we even invaded, 2) It became too expensive for them to continue supplying troops, or 3) The WMD reasons for invading were never validated, and thus helped them justify reason #2 ... not ONE nation has said they were pulling support because we used torture. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most nations would or have already used some sort of torture policy if it was deemed absolutely necessary.
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How many fewer troops do we have in Iraq as a result.
Uh ... none? Unless I missed the news report where we pulled troops out of Iraq because word leaked that we used torture methods.
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How many people looked at America and the fact that we tortured their country men and beleive if that was true then the rest of the other lies must be true and joined the terrorists.
And this is completely subjective. Nobody knows. If you want to believe that a large wave of people suddenly jumped to the profession of suicide bomber just because word leaked that we tortured three guys, then I guess that's your perogative. But these guys were hating us long before any of that info got out. In fact, most of the terrorist attacks against us (WTC attacks 1 & 2, USS Cole, US Embassies, etc, etc) happened before this info came out. One of the biggest reasons the terrorists said they kept attacking was because they had no fear of reprisal. So you could possibly argue that attacks have gone down, because we've finally instilled some fear into these groups. So your argument that there are more terrorists now because word is out that we torture is completely subjective.
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On the flip side. Say we didn't torture and this attack on LA did happen. It would be tragic, but what do you think the response would be from the world. With the moral high ground more nations would probably support the wars.
Probably the exact same as if LA were attacked right now, with everyone knowing full well that we've tortured people.
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Quite possibly we could tragically lose 2000 American Citizens, but we could save how many more American Soilders by having more support and ending the war sooner.
You're willing to sacrafice a definate few thousand innocent civilians deaths, because of some unverifiable and only potential increase in terrorist ranks?? Even if it was true ... at least our troops are better prepared to defend themselves.
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I am saying that if I had to choose between sacrificing one person and 10. I would sacrifice the one. i would do everything humanly possible to not have to do it, but that would be my decision.
Then why not sacrifice the one TERRORIST by torturing him? And mind you, this torture is not even physical. I'd do anything, and I mean anything, to get information out of these scumbags in order to save the lives of American citizens.
because I think that the negative politically ramifications would be greater than the data gained.
I do not deny that it would be great to get the information. I just think you have to weigh the other side of the issue when making the decision.
I understand it is personal decision and I can see how people would think that Torture can be justified. I have never said anything to the contrary in this thread. I simply just feel that their is a lot to lose if you torture.
Yes you would only harm one individual, but there is no guarantee that you would gain any information that would be valuable. But in doing so you would risk alienating other American citizens and other countries who do not want to be associated with the practice of torture.
I think that by torturing one person you have the ability to save lives and take them away. I think that you have a greater chance to do more harm than good.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 478
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 478 |
Excel, I have pretty much said what I have to say, but since you gave a nice long response I wanted to respond.. You made some very good points. Quote:
None that I'm aware of. Most countries withdrew their support because of one of three reasons: 1) They had illegal deals with Saddam in-place before we even invaded, 2) It became too expensive for them to continue supplying troops, or 3) The WMD reasons for invading were never validated, and thus helped them justify reason #2 ... not ONE nation has said they were pulling support because we used torture. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most nations would or have already used some sort of torture policy if it was deemed absolutely necessary.
Just as I do not have any data to support my claim. Neither do you. But I will admit that I think that the reasons that you presented played a large part in why we do not have as much support in the Iraq and Afghanistan war.
I personally think that President Bush lost a lot of standing in the world and in this country after the Gitmo, ABU Graib and waterbaording scandals. I think that it lost us the ability to get more boots on the ground, but the variables you listed played a large part as well. I don't know how much, but I do think that without these instances we would have a much stronger footing in the two wars.
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And this is completely subjective. Nobody knows. If you want to believe that a large wave of people suddenly jumped to the profession of suicide bomber just because word leaked that we tortured three guys, then I guess that's your perogative. But these guys were hating us long before any of that info got out. In fact, most of the terrorist attacks against us (WTC attacks 1 & 2, USS Cole, US Embassies, etc, etc) happened before this info came out. One of the biggest reasons the terrorists said they kept attacking was because they had no fear of reprisal. So you could possibly argue that attacks have gone down, because we've finally instilled some fear into these groups. So your argument that there are more terrorists now because word is out that we torture is completely subjective.
I remember reading articles in time and newsweek where abu graib was a rallying cry and a recruitment point for the terrorists. So my argument is slightly subjective in that I do not have an figures on al quida recruitment. By the same token. Saying that 2000 lives were saved in preventing the LA attack is subjective as well.
I do not think that you can state that the attacks have gone down. The terrorists just do not have to go as far to attack Americans. IED and suicide bombers work very well for them and that is a shame.
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Probably the exact same as if LA were attacked right now, with everyone knowing full well that we've tortured people.
I will give you this point. It would probably be similar.
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You're willing to sacrafice a definate few thousand innocent civilians deaths, because of some unverifiable and only potential increase in terrorist ranks??
If I had the information I would act upon it. I just would not use torture to get the information.
You could also say that US failed as a state because we did not torture and find out about 9/11, the USS cole and other terrorist attacks. Our sitting presidents both Bush, and Clinton did not think that it was worth it then. To me nothing has changed to make it worth it now.
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Even if it was true ... at least our troops are better prepared to defend themselves.
Maybe, if you got information. There is also the possibility that you woudl torture people and not get anything.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
If torture was the only way to find out then yes. But the assumption that torture was the only way to find out is false.
If you think these terrorist will give up the information just to be nice, your not thinking straight. They have lived and live a much harder life than any "upstanding" prison living conditions in America. To them, Gitmo was probably club med, why would they just volunteer the information?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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When you find a replacement for their oil, THEN we can get the hell out of the middle east. Until that time, however, we very, very, VERY much NEED to be THERE.
I agree with your point...but look at the deeper point you're making -- all of these problems stem from oil. These people hate us for several reasons, none of which have anything to do with our 'freedom'.
They don't like our installation of military bases on their 'holy land'...they don't like our long history of friendly dealings with brutal regimes (Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.). They aren't too fond of the fact that we've been bombing civilians for decades...as much as everyone wants to plug their ears and pretend, we're downright vicious over there.
...and all of these things are a result of oil. I mean, when you hear of a journalist being beheaded or a suicide bombing or a terrorist attack, why not just shrug and say 'eh, we need the oil'?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
The single biggest thing that seperates us from terrorists, as I see it, is that they kill indiscriminately and we try to selectively target those who would do us harm..
I've never understood the 'we don't target civilians' thing...
It's akin to lighting M-80's in a mall food court and then saying 'well, I wasn't trying to hurt anyone'.
We have a long and detailed history of dropping bombs all over civilian areas and then saying 'well, we didn't mean to kill civilians' or 'the terrorists are hiding amongst the civilians'...it's ludicrous.
When it comes to dropping bombs, our government really does not care if we kill civilians. We may not 'target' them...but we don't do much in the way of ensuring their safety.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Quote:
The problem we have in this country is to many people have replaced the backbone with a wishbone.
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