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Can you see him standing on the podium and lifting the Lombardi?
Only if Brady Quinn lets him hold it for a minute or so.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I can't wait to see us fast forward 3 years from now when neither Quinn or DA will be on the roster and the Quinn vs. DA thread will still be active.  Where I'm curious to see what Quinn really has to offer, its truly hard to say who is better than who when we don't know how BQ plays over a streak of games. We've seen DA, maybe we'll see Quinn, but to say outright one is better than the other at this point is pointless and just man-love motivation.  I can't say DA is better than Quinn and vice versa. Quinn has better mobility from what I've seen and a decent short game while DA has the stronger arm and better long ball. This is from what I've seen. I saw BQ light up the (literally) worse defense in the league and I've seen DA light up one of the best  and cumble over mediocre  all in the same year. This debate can't be won at this point in time. I will have full faith in trust that whoever this coaching staff places on the field week 1 deserved and fully earned the starting role. This coaching has no bias towards any of the QBs, except for maybe Ratliff due to mutual history with the Jets.
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Can you see him standing on the podium and lifting the Lombardi? If not, then lets move on.
Sure, I can.
Namath did it...Dilfer did it...stars just have to align.
I don't think BQ or DA will ever really be anything great. But either could win with the pieces in place. I really hate the emphasis on QB's...giving them records as if they were fighters. Ridiculous.
To be honest...when we get a defense, I will start worrying who the QB is.
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" We've seen DA, maybe we'll see Quinn, but to say outright one is better than the other at this point is pointless and just man-love motivation."
Nahhh...but it does require for one to just use their noggin a tad - not a lot mind you just a tad. I spelled out my opinion...say where its wrong and disagree but don't give me this crap about man-love motivation. Just a total ignorant statement based on absolutely no football what so ever or any logic of what just transpired in the draft. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I can't wait to see us fast forward 3 years from now when neither Quinn or DA will be on the roster and the Quinn vs. DA thread will still be active.
Well it might not be BQ/DA or Couch/Holcomb but the threads will be here, guaranteed.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Where I'm curious to see what Quinn really has to offer, its truly hard to say who is better than who when we don't know how BQ plays over a streak of games. We've seen DA, maybe we'll see Quinn, but to say outright one is better than the other at this point is pointless
I agree, hewdawg. I just think BQ has more potential, and while DA has some good traits, he has enough issues that now warrant a BQ trial run.
gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
Quote:
Where I'm curious to see what Quinn really has to offer, its truly hard to say who is better than who when we don't know how BQ plays over a streak of games. We've seen DA, maybe we'll see Quinn, but to say outright one is better than the other at this point is pointless
I agree, hewdawg. I just think BQ has more potential, and while DA has some good traits, he has enough issues that now warrant a BQ trial run.
Which I am for. But if Coach Mangini sees DA or Ratliff as the better QB after the preseason. We as fans have no choice but to support who's behind center. Which that scenario has to raise questions of why can't BQ convince 2 different regimes to give him the start early? I understand the deal of DA going to the probowl and being named starter last preseason. Who benches a pro bowler for a virtual unknown commodity? I'll be one of the first to admit that I was crying for a change after that first Bungles game, but typical to DA, he redeemed himself and actually put together a string of decently played games with one exceptional (by DA standards) Giants game. Due to Quinn's early injury, we still don't know the extent of Quinn's abilities at the NFL level and only have his college career judge him by (which some on here weigh too heavily in this ongoing debate  ). I'll admit that I wasn't too thrilled and Quinn's college career didn't wow me. (On a side note, who's play does wow me and I wouldn't mind picking up next year is Colt McCoy )
I think a lot will be answered to this debate by week 1.
Last edited by HewDawg; 04/29/09 10:37 PM.
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We as fans have no choice but to support who's behind center.
We do have a choice 
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" We've seen DA, maybe we'll see Quinn, but to say outright one is better than the other at this point is pointless and just man-love motivation."
Nahhh...but it does require for one to just use their noggin a tad - not a lot mind you just a tad. I spelled out my opinion...say where its wrong and disagree but don't give me this crap about man-love motivation. Just a total ignorant statement based on absolutely no football what so ever or any logic of what just transpired in the draft.
Whats unfootball is stating that one QB is better than another based on college statistics and little to no professional game experience. The truth of the matter is we just don't know. People place entirely too much value on Quinn on opinions based on their dislike of DA rather than proof because actual football evidence does not exist at this point. Quinn has shown us that he has much better mobility and patience in the short game. His long ball is a question mark and decision making over time is a question mark as well. That is a football based opinion  . Is DA better? I don't know. We know he is extremely inconsistant (possibly due to poor footwork or something in his head) and what happens when he plays behind a disfunctional O-line. One thing that I give him credit for is rarely has he not been able to place us in a position to win.
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"Whats unfootball is stating that one QB is better than another based on college statistics and little to no professional game experience."
And that has what to do with the price of tea in China?
If ever I bring up DA's college career (Never me with stats, cause I suck at getting stats) is becuase he had flaws in college...so does every QB - the object is to see the improvements and if I have a dissapointment in that area is because the same flaws still exist.
"People place entirely too much value on Quinn"
Then direct that Man love accusation to them specifically....if need be. In general it covers me and I object to that. And still I cannot believe you are actually justifying a comment like that
"Quinn has shown us"
I agree there is little that "WE" the fan can say about Quinn with absolute certainty considering the limited DATA base that we have to form that opinion.
However what we can ASSume that the coaches with workouts, Film, Game film, Preseason film, Practice film, 7 on 7's, 11 on 11's. Class room - Verbal conversation about the offense. Peers regarding his huddle presence.
We can ASSume the Coaches possibly could have an opinion on BQ.
What I did bring up and you did not touch it - was the FACT that M/K passed up on Sanchez and traded the pick - gave me (a fan) closure on what they thought of BQ - cause throughout this draft there was much speculation thrown out there that M/K were not satisfied with BQ's prospects.
The FACT they did what they did this draft...was pretty much evidence that they believe a lot more than what has been led for us to believe...in BQ as our potential Franchise QB.
That is where I stated using the noggin and looking at logic. No more, no less.
and as always its JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The FACT they did what they did this draft...was pretty much evidence that they believe a lot more than what has been led for us to believe...in BQ as our potential Franchise QB.
i responded to this the first time you brought this up in another thread and i can't remember which one because i don't want to type it out but passing on sanchez at #5 is not concrete support for quinn or DA. it merely says that the organization
1) did not way to pick at #5 with the players available
2) used interest in sanchez as a smokescreen to be able to trade down
3) wanted to save in the 30+ guaranteed
4) felt there were other players to improve other aspects of the team
5) probably felt they could win with quinn OR anderson
those are the actual facts, imho. there are no facts that, because we passed on sanchez, we believe in quinn. it merely says they are ok with the qb crew of quinn/da/ratliff. ratliff is the other factor in this whole thing. you say what you want but the guy looked sharp in the preseason and mangini was very high on the guy. all slates are wiped clean and, if you ask me, if anyone has an actual "advantage" right now, it'd be ratliff because he is mangini's guy.
whoever is our qb this season will have to earn it, and that's just the way i want it.
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just read this to expand on ratliff's advantage: Quote:
Mel Kiper on Brett Ratliff
By Hoss Aultman
Posted Feb 12, 2009
Mel Kiper is hearing good things about Jets quarterback Brett Ratliff.
"The guy that they really liked internally is Brett Ratliff," said Kiper. "He was an undrafted kid out of Utah -- good size, very good arm and looked very good in the pre-season situations last year. Here is a kid that may be ahead of the game, maybe even ahead of Kellen Clemens, who was a former second round pick. I’d say Brett Ratliff is a guy off the radar nationally that I know they have high hopes for. … He could be that diamond in the rough.”
http://nyj.scout.com/2/838830.html
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They found there diamond in the rough, his name is Derek Anderson. Yes I can see him holding the Lombardi Trophe, and just like Brady, Favre, and Warner Anderson was not a first round pick. There is little info to the fans on Quinn, because Quinn isn't getting the game plays, which in itself says the total of the arguement to me. Quinn. If he''s good enough to win the AFC North, then he's good enough to beat out DA, or perhaps DA just ain't as bad as everyone gives him credit for. All I know is I can see the competitive desire to beat the other team in the play of DA, sometimes, Whatever happens, Mangini is going to have to be held accountable for the success or failure of his decision at quarterback. The same goes for Right tackle, If Jon St Clair is a bad choice, then Mangini's got explaining to do. One of the bottom lines, is there is only 1 choice that can begin His 4th year of starts for the Browns, and his 5th year on the team and the stability that provides. Anderson to Edwards is a beautiful combination and anyone who takes over that #1 QB, to #1 receiver combination should have to beat them out for the job in Camp/Pre-season. #3 is number one! 
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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DA's not bad, he's just one dimensional. He sputtered his way through the last of the 2007 season and went to the Pro Bowl, a game where the rules are designed for the offense to score, no blitzing, no bump and run, everything wide open for the offense, still he produced no points. Amazing considering.
Then he entered 2008 and every team aware of his one dimension played for it, he stumbled to a 50% completion percentage and a 66.5 qb rating with 9 TD's and 8 INT's. He became purely average. You need to be better than average to consistently start and win in this league. He's a good backup.
#GMSTRONG
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Then he entered 2008 and every team aware of his one dimension played for it, he stumbled to a 50% completion percentage and a 66.5 qb rating with 9 TD's and 8 INT's. He became purely average. You need to be better than average to consistently start and win in this league. He's a good backup.
It's funny how the Steelers won with an average QB last season. DA projected to be at about 18TD/16int. Rothlesberger had 17 TD/15 int's with a 59% completion percentage...so I guess you can win with average...the difference being..Pittsburgh has a top ranked defense and receivers that catch the ball. I can think of three would be TD's off the top of my head that Edwards dropped starting with the Dallas game. Believe it or not, this is a team sport. You mean one dimensional in the sense that he doesn't scramble every play...no need to when you get rid of the ball and get through your progressions as fast as DA does, it's easy when you are 6'6 and can see the field clearly. I believe his very first scramble ever for the Browns went for 30 something yards..and Romeo wouldn't let our QB's take control of the offense, hopefully they will loosen that up for him this year. I just can't wait to see the receivers hold onto the ball. The reason they didn't draft Sanchez, is not because they believe in Quinn, but they have a 26 year old ProBowl QB on the roster that Mangini sees something in. They were not trying to move DA like they were Quinn, not because people were not interested in him. They actually tried to trade Quinn to a few teams, because they felt he was expendable. I also heard on KNR that the Browns were leary of the backlash of trading the Ohio product and fan favorite, which played a major part in it.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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The reason they didn't draft Sanchez, is not because they believe in Quinn, but they have a 26 year old ProBowl QB on the roster that Mangini sees something in. They were not trying to move DA like they were Quinn, not because people were not interested in him. They actually tried to trade Quinn to a few teams, because they felt he was expendable. I also heard on KNR that the Browns were leary of the backlash of trading the Ohio product and fan favorite, which played a major part in it.
Do you have a listening bug in Mangini's office?
Just curious...
#GMSTRONG
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I also heard on KNR that the Browns were leary of the backlash of trading the Ohio product and fan favorite, which played a major part in it.
What a crock of equine defication.....I can't believe you actually believe this.
When will this crap ever stop. Teams called us for Quinn, yet you keep recycling the same story of us shopping him. Mangini said both QB's had something he like in their game, yet you leave out half the equation.
Comparing DA with Rothlisberger is a farce. As much as I hate Ben, he is a playmaker, Anderson is a player that needs everything just right for him.
This is my favorite...
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no need to when you get rid of the ball and get through your progressions as fast as DA does,
What progression? Look at Edwards and then throw to KW2 in double coverage. His decisions may have been quick, but they were terrible.
Look, I like Anderson even though you may not believe me. But the guy has not upside, he has hit his ceiling and it is so obvious it is funny. Yet you spew this garbage as if you talk to the staff daily.
Opinion is one thing, and your opinion of DA is yours and that's fine. But the rest of your dribble is assinine and not based in fact.
#gmstrong
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NRTU BT58 but for everyone who gets that word wrong. for the last time I pray.... please read slowly...  , the word is drivel. D-R-I-V-E-L. Not dribble, but i admit it's close in pronounciation. Thank you.
Last edited by lampdogg; 04/30/09 10:48 PM.
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Was'nt a couple of those interceptions Quinn had bounced off the hands of the recievers.
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As much as I hate Ben, he is a playmaker, Anderson is a player that needs everything just right for him.
You could make a pretty strong argument that while Anderson is a player that needs everything just right, Ben R. is a player that has everything just right. The Steelers are arguably the most well-run franchise in professional sports in this country. The past two years they have had the league's best defense, and have a 22-10 regular season record and a big shiny trophy over that stretch, despite having offenses ranked 17th in 2007 and 22nd in 2008. When their defense "struggled" (as in, 9th overall) they went 8-8, despite having the 7th ranked offense. Ben has been sacked 46 times in each of the past three seasons. He's thrown 67 touchdowns to 49 interceptions in that three year stretch. Yet how many times have we watched him run around barely eluding sacks only to blindly chuck the ball 50 yards downfield right into the hands of Hines Ward? Heck, he won 16 straight games as the starting QB his rookie year despite having the 16th ranked offense. Why? They had the league's best defense that year too. The Roethlisberger-led Steeler offense has been ranked in the top half of the league twice. One of those years they went 8-8. The other they were ranked 15th. It's pretty nice what an outstanding defense can do for an average but reliable offense.
Yeah, Roethlisberger is no slouch by any means, but he certainly has plenty going for him.
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j/c
I love this argument, because a QB can suck, does it mean your want your QB to suck? I am no fan of Roethlisberger, the fact is though, the guy has made the clutch play when it's on the line. The other fact is, DA tossed 4 int's in the clutch, when it was on the line. When you have to have that 10 yards or that score, Roethlisberger has delivered, DA only delivered it to the other team and should have been wearing a pizza hut helmet.
The ravens won a SB with Trent Dilfer, doesn't mean we want Trent Dilfer running our offense does it? Been there, done that, we found out it wasn't Dilfer that won the SB for them. This is about our teams needs and we need a better than average QB who doesn't panic at the helm.
Most sane people will admit it doesn't mean that BQ is the answer, none of us know at this point, we've not seen him enough in real action to gauge it but we do know that DA has real limitations in his short game and his decision making processes when the pressure is on, suck.
#GMSTRONG
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Nobody said they want a quarterback to suck. I don't know anybody that wants anyone on their team to suck. But you cannot dispute the fact that a quarterback can be less than stellar when the pieces around him are solid. Given your Trent Dilfer example I'm sure you'd agree. If all it took to succeed in the NFL was a great QB then the Colts would be perennial champs. And yet, the Steelers with Ben at QB have had far more success than the Colts with Manning at QB, despite Ben having been in the NFL half as long as Manning, because the Steelers are a solid team.
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I think I understand your premise, but it still sounds as if you are implying that DA could be the answer, or should be, as long as the team around him is good.
Quinn hasn't played much, and that muddies the water in terms of his evaluation, but IMO, he showed more skill and leadership than I ever saw from DA. I wanted DA over Quinn last year due to his previous success, but I like many refused to consider the end of the '07 season when I evaluated his play. But after what I saw last year, I have concluded that his cieling has been reached.
Many like to use the arguement that when he was benched he was starting to play better. My answer to that is, the damage was done. Edwards was part of the problem as was the Oline and injuries, but DA looked horrible in the face of adversity.
I will add that those like THROWLONG, who constantly try to say that Quinn was shopped, overlook the fact that most teams knew DA was available, yet no team came calling. Mangini and Co. turned down offers for Quinn, but had none for DA.
All in all, I'm sick of the QB debate year after year. I believe if you draft a guy to be the future, you go with him until he proves he can't do it. The game played with DA and Quinn by Savage and RAC, hurt the growth of the offense in opinion, and set the team back another year in it's development.
#gmstrong
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but IMO, he showed more skill and leadership than I ever saw from DA.
Wow .... really?
You got all of that from 1 game against a horrible defense? I'll even discount the next 2 absolutely miserable games as being the result of injury. That means that Quinn has "really" only played 1 game.
2007 saw Anderson throw for 29 TDs. He led the team to 10 wins. Now I'm not saying either way on the QB decision ...... but to say that Quinn showed more than DA in 1 game is ridiculous. Quinn has a long way to go in my eyes to reach the savior status that some have assigned him already.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That's good, as my premise really is quite simple: its much much easier for a decent quarterback to succeed when the team around him is performing well.
Remember what happened in the one game last season when our entire team actually decided to show up?
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Let me tell you when I first liked Anderson, it was when he came in to the game halfway through and moved the offense a few times and the Browns beat the packers in 06. He had a good game vs the Bengals in 07 put up 51 as an offense. The next big game, well in spite of the 7 scoring drives that I came to expect whether fg's or Td's ( which is a nice thing I might add) to expect 7 scoring drives because you have a qb and offense who can move up field. The next big game was vs the Dolphins I think in 07, and the lowly Rams I believe , if I remember right, where they put up late scores to add to a lead. The only problem I have with " good DA" is his relentless drive to score points tends to wain when they have a lead.
Nobody is really going to assign credit for this but, DA's play I think was demonstrated against a good defense in the Seattle game an OT win in 07, but his next big game was vs the Giants, give some of that Giant win credit to Eric Wright who stopped the opponents momentum with an Int in his own end zone.
It almost seems like the coaches reeled in DA's gunslinger mentality of throwing the deep ball and as a result hurt his ability to get 1st downs aka lead. Another thing, he scrambled less, and scrambling helped his 1st down percentage in 06 and 07 .
It is all up in the air, and if Quinn is good enough to take the job from him, then I hope he does well, but to think its Quinns job to accept and not have to work for it sounds detrimental. who knows.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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What I did bring up and you did not touch it - was the FACT that M/K passed up on Sanchez and traded the pick - gave me (a fan) closure on what they thought of BQ - cause throughout this draft there was much speculation thrown out there that M/K were not satisfied with BQ's prospects.
The FACT they did what they did this draft...was pretty much evidence that they believe a lot more than what has been led for us to believe...in BQ as our potential Franchise QB.
You are right that I missed this. Sorry  LOL. I think that those with hope that BQ is a settlement on our QB roster are reading too much into the undrafting of Sanchez as evidence that the FO thinks highly of him. It is my personal opinion that Mangini and Kokinis think highly of all of the QBs on the roster. They all have strengths and weaknesses that will be assessed and the best man in their eyes will be playing under center week 1 and we will most definitely have a lot of questions answered. Now enter in the subject of Sanchez, how about this possible scenario from the FO point of view: Lets put it out their that we are highly interested in drafting Sanchez (because we can ASSume that Stafford is gone) to provide multiple options for the bettering of the team we are rebuilding. 1. Lets try to pull picks via trade from either DA or BQ because we will be fine with either under center with the right pieces in place that we are targeting (O-line and WR) and get a young QB that we can mold into our system. 2. (From Mangini) I know that the team I just left will most likely be seeking a QB, lets try to trade down with them and pull some extra picks this year plus some of the players I liked that they will be willing to give up.
Of course hindsight is 20/20 Though none of us truly knows what was going down predraft or what their thinking was.
And now look at a wrench thrown in with the trade: Brett Ratliff. He is a kid that Mangini and Daboll know well and believe they can work with. They brought in a QB that they wanted and have been working with (especially Daboll, lets not forget that he was his QB coach last year  ) when they could have easily drafted Sanchez with the number 5. They got what they wanted at 5, Brett Ratliff. Not saying he is better than what is already here, just another option who will most likely have the advantage of knowing the system in this QB competition.
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j/c more fodder to speculate over: Quote:
MORE ON ROBISKIE: He’s wearing his old number from Ohio State, 80. That, of course, is the number formerly worn on the Browns by tight end Kellen Winslow, who, of course, was traded to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the offseason. In addition, Winslow’s old locker is now property of Brady Quinn, who is dressing apart from the other quarterbacks.
http://cle.scout.com/2/862101.html
you can argue either way for why this is done but a little more detail to drive us crazy 
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 they so do that on purpose... I'm sure someone else will be writing a full article on where Quinn's locker is in detail this week.
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Next week there will be articles telling us how the move of Quinn's locker signifies that he is ............ Loved by his teammates / Hated by his teammates A Prima Donna / Just one of the guys The starter / Bound for backup duty On the team for sure / Sure to be traded A leader / A loner Welcome to the slow news cycle following the draft.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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"imho. there are no facts that, because we passed on sanchez, we believe in quinn."
this is true...it was more my opinion - as educated as it was - just opinion and I must throw in DARN GOOD LOGIC
M/K are traditional Football guys. The believe in certain Basics
One of which is...IF there is a Franchise QB in the draft and you "DON'T HAVE ONE" then you should take him.
There WAS...we passed on him - Logic says we got one on our Roster already.
Ratliff...sorry no, Good Prospect I think - Carl Smith should teach him up well so that we can depend on him.
DA...after 27 starts he has left all with a best case Scenario of ONE BIG (?) . If he n BQ are Equals (as in all indications that you think with your "OR DA" stuff) then in fact we don't have a Franchise QB. I repeat M/K are too traditional football to pass one up.
As for the list of why we passed up on Sanchez...weak and only logical if you are a DA is the guy last ditch hopeful.
LoyalDawg... "It's funny how the Steelers won with an average QB last season."
The fact that you
a. view Ben Roth as Average
b. try to even make a case that DA is as good as Ben
I will stop there cause we are entering Silly Land 
Hewdawg... "It is my personal opinion that Mangini and Kokinis think highly of all of the QBs on the roster."
thats why they passed up on Sanchez??? So we are a team with now 3 Franchise QBs??? Again the last straw of a DA believer...it can't be BQ, it can't be...no, no we got ALLL good ones. Again we passed on Sanchez cause we got a Franchise QB already on our roster. And I do not think we got 3 of them or 2 of them - and lets just say by using Sherlock Holmes' deductive reasoning we can Come up with BQ as the guy each and every time
"1. Lets try to pull picks via trade from either DA or BQ because we will be fine with either under center"
And just what fantasy world is this that you believe in??? Where is all this EQUALITY that you seem to imagine is there. Pull picks??? NFL teams were only offering picks for One of the two QBs - of course the common denominator REAL ONE
Of course the equality now travels to Ignorance - yes, neither you, nor I nor any one here can see in the future or have the exact thought process of M/K - so neither one of us can be LOGICAL in formulating our opinion. And I see Dong also uses that - "these are the facts - there are no facts" so our silly synopsis is just as logical as yours lol
Don't work that way. Look all Roads happen to lead to BQ - Huddle Presence...stated over n over by Mangini...gee who is going to provail there.
Now that the draft is over and we couldn't give DA away even after paying the 5 million Roster Bonus...man not one trade offer or sniff of a "RUMOR" of a trade offer came after that. Should speak volumes.
But you will see...this so called "Competition" will last as long as Mini Camps and OTAs...from the beginning of Training Camp BQ will be named the starter I have no allegiance to either QB. I'm not from Ohio to like BQ better, I don't follow nor like or dislike ND - Nor do I dislike Pac 10 or Like that college football. I don't care about preconceived favorite style of QBs. I do know that we need the most Accurate QB available. We need to have a High Pass per Play stat above all stats to signify Efficiency in the passing game! I do know to achieve more positive plays against the good team who apply more pressure you need to have a QB who can be MOBILE...enough to make plays out of nothing.
I like a QB who can take authority of the huddle and actually conduct a 2 minute drill without the necessity of each and every decision to come from the Sidelines.
If that QB is DA great...if it is BQ great...this is what I covet...not an individual.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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this is true...it was more my opinion - as educated as it was - just opinion and I must throw in DARN GOOD LOGIC
dislocate your shoulder yet with all that back patting?
i will say that, if quinn is what we think he is, one would think that he would be the guy. that said, each new coach wants his guy and it can't be a coincidence that we wanted ratliff. i wouldn't rule out a 3-guy race.
it needs to be august now.
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I'm not so sure that Mangini thinks Sanchez is a franchise QB. I also don't know what they think of our QBs because they are so tight lipped. I have to surmise that they like Ratliff's potential a lot to make him part of the trade. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they think he will be the starter. I think the plan is probably for him to be # 2. That means DA or Quinn will be gone this year. My money is that it will be DA because what I can tell the offense is a terrible fit for what DA can do.
#gmstrong
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It's funny how the Steelers won with an average QB last season.
If I had a choice of any QB in the NFL, Ben makes my short list...easy.
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this is true...it was more my opinion - as educated as it was - just opinion and I must throw in DARN GOOD LOGIC
Don't confuse logic with beliefs.
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M/K are traditional Football guys. The believe in certain Basics
One of which is...IF there is a Franchise QB in the draft and you "DON'T HAVE ONE" then you should take him.
Why ? Because of their track record of taking franchise QBs ?
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There WAS...we passed on him - Logic says we got one on our Roster already.
Sanchez a franchise QB with 16 games as a starter is a reach.
Don't care how you look at it, my opinion but I'm glad the Jets thought he was.
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Ratliff...sorry no, Good Prospect I think - Carl Smith should teach him up well so that we can depend on him.
Who knows what Mangini is thinking on this ?
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As for the list of why we passed up on Sanchez...weak and only logical if you are a DA is the guy last ditch hopeful.
I don't think he's less logical than the BQers belief of what this means.
Hewdawg... "It is my personal opinion that Mangini and Kokinis think highly of all of the QBs on the roster."
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thats why they passed up on Sanchez??? So we are a team with now 3 Franchise QBs??? Again the last straw of a DA believer...it can't be BQ, it can't be...no, no we got ALLL good ones. Again we passed on Sanchez cause we got a Franchise QB already on our roster. And I do not think we got 3 of them or 2 of them - and lets just say by using Sherlock Holmes' deductive reasoning we can Come up with BQ as the guy each and every time
Wow, the guy said he thinks Mangini and Kok think highly of all, not that they think all are franchise QBs.
Are you telling us that they aren't happy with their QB options and are just stuck with DA ?
Show me where they have shown their hand on anything ?
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And just what fantasy world is this that you believe in??? Where is all this EQUALITY that you seem to imagine is there. Pull picks??? NFL teams were only offering picks for One of the two QBs - of course the common denominator REAL ONE
And you have a link , or did you bug Manginis phones to know that there were no offers for DA ?
Please don't feed me with , The media never reported an offer , we know how well they reported on DA's whereabouts when BQ was in Berea every day.
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Of course the equality now travels to Ignorance - yes, neither you, nor I nor any one here can see in the future or have the exact thought process of M/K - so neither one of us can be LOGICAL in formulating our opinion. And I see Dong also uses that - "these are the facts - there are no facts" so our silly synopsis is just as logical as yours lol
Exactly , anyone claiming to use logic , have it mixed up with our opinions and beliefs.
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Don't work that way. Look all Roads happen to lead to BQ - Huddle Presence...stated over n over by Mangini...gee who is going to provail there.
In your opinion.
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Now that the draft is over and we couldn't give DA away even after paying the 5 million Roster Bonus...man not one trade offer or sniff of a "RUMOR" of a trade offer came after that. Should speak volumes.
Again you have no proof of this.
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But you will see...this so called "Competition" will last as long as Mini Camps and OTAs...from the beginning of Training Camp BQ will be named the starter
In your opinion.
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I have no allegiance to either QB. I'm not from Ohio to like BQ better, I don't follow nor like or dislike ND - Nor do I dislike Pac 10 or Like that college football. I don't care about preconceived favorite style of QBs. I do know that we need the most Accurate QB available. We need to have a High Pass per Play stat above all stats to signify Efficiency in the passing game! I do know to achieve more positive plays against the good team who apply more pressure you need to have a QB who can be MOBILE...enough to make plays out of nothing.
UMMMMM I leave the allegiance thing alone.
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I like a QB who can take authority of the huddle and actually conduct a 2 minute drill without the necessity of each and every decision to come from the Sidelines.
And you saw BQ do this when ?
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If that QB is DA great...if it is BQ great...this is what I covet...not an individual.
And if it's DA you will tell us all how this is the wrong decision and why.
To use logic one would have to be totally unbiased as to who they want at QB. To try and portray the passing of Sanchez as a sign of what Mangini is thinking in relation to BQ is pure speculation on your part.
First you have to assume Mangini is lying or smokescreening to trade DA.
Alas DA was never mentioned in discussions, so we
1) must not be trading him ?
2) Mangini thinks he's the franchise ?
3) Mangini really wants to find out for himself what DA is ?
Then we can sit back and say we were shopping BQ,
1) because Mangini doesn't like him ?
2) Mangini wants to move down , the Jets thinking we like DA ask about BQ, Mangini seeing the chance to move down throws up what he would want and what he knows the Jets will never pay, The Jets in response say what about the #5 pick if Sanchez is there, Mangini dangles both the pick and BQ to fire up the kettle , The Jets give up ALOT for the pick and Mangini has his way with them?.
3)Mangini loves BQ and his plan to dump DA backfired ?
We really don't have anything on what Mangini was really thinking and both sides of the QB debate can speculate themselfs the winner.
I just see it as a win for the Browns and we will have to wait and see. JMHO.
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"imho. there are no facts that, because we passed on sanchez, we believe in quinn."
this is true...it was more my opinion - as educated as it was - just opinion and I must throw in DARN GOOD LOGIC
M/K are traditional Football guys. The believe in certain Basics
One of which is...IF there is a Franchise QB in the draft and you "DON'T HAVE ONE" then you should take him.
There WAS...we passed on him - Logic says we got one on our Roster already.
Ratliff...sorry no, Good Prospect I think - Carl Smith should teach him up well so that we can depend on him.
DA...after 27 starts he has left all with a best case Scenario of ONE BIG (?) . If he n BQ are Equals (as in all indications that you think with your "OR DA" stuff) then in fact we don't have a Franchise QB. I repeat M/K are too traditional football to pass one up.
As for the list of why we passed up on Sanchez...weak and only logical if you are a DA is the guy last ditch hopeful.
LoyalDawg... "It's funny how the Steelers won with an average QB last season."
The fact that you
a. view Ben Roth as Average
b. try to even make a case that DA is as good as Ben
I will stop there cause we are entering Silly Land
Hewdawg... "It is my personal opinion that Mangini and Kokinis think highly of all of the QBs on the roster."
thats why they passed up on Sanchez??? So we are a team with now 3 Franchise QBs??? Again the last straw of a DA believer...it can't be BQ, it can't be...no, no we got ALLL good ones. Again we passed on Sanchez cause we got a Franchise QB already on our roster. And I do not think we got 3 of them or 2 of them - and lets just say by using Sherlock Holmes' deductive reasoning we can Come up with BQ as the guy each and every time
"1. Lets try to pull picks via trade from either DA or BQ because we will be fine with either under center"
And just what fantasy world is this that you believe in??? Where is all this EQUALITY that you seem to imagine is there. Pull picks??? NFL teams were only offering picks for One of the two QBs - of course the common denominator REAL ONE
Of course the equality now travels to Ignorance - yes, neither you, nor I nor any one here can see in the future or have the exact thought process of M/K - so neither one of us can be LOGICAL in formulating our opinion. And I see Dong also uses that - "these are the facts - there are no facts" so our silly synopsis is just as logical as yours lol
Don't work that way. Look all Roads happen to lead to BQ - Huddle Presence...stated over n over by Mangini...gee who is going to provail there.
Now that the draft is over and we couldn't give DA away even after paying the 5 million Roster Bonus...man not one trade offer or sniff of a "RUMOR" of a trade offer came after that. Should speak volumes.
But you will see...this so called "Competition" will last as long as Mini Camps and OTAs...from the beginning of Training Camp BQ will be named the starter I have no allegiance to either QB. I'm not from Ohio to like BQ better, I don't follow nor like or dislike ND - Nor do I dislike Pac 10 or Like that college football. I don't care about preconceived favorite style of QBs. I do know that we need the most Accurate QB available. We need to have a High Pass per Play stat above all stats to signify Efficiency in the passing game! I do know to achieve more positive plays against the good team who apply more pressure you need to have a QB who can be MOBILE...enough to make plays out of nothing.
I like a QB who can take authority of the huddle and actually conduct a 2 minute drill without the necessity of each and every decision to come from the Sidelines.
If that QB is DA great...if it is BQ great...this is what I covet...not an individual.
JMHO
ROFL 
When I posted earlier about man love towards BQ, it wasn't directed at you in anyway, but we'll let your "all roads lead to Brady Quinn" theories speak for themselves.
If you read my posts, I haven't shown favoritism towards anybody on our roster and just have hope that this administration will have our best QB under center. The simple fact that this FO hasn't leaked any info on who they will start under center, even after the draft, shows that your "Facts" hold no water. Even if you are looking at the moves they've made in trades and the draft, you cannot assume that Mangini and Kokinis have their franchise QB. Most analysts state that this year's draft was generally overall a weak draft. Next year's has more potential to hold better prospects. Maybe Mangini and Kokinis want to see what we have with their own eyes and make a decision on if we need to draft our franchise QB next year or if we have him on our roster now. We will not know untill the season starts.
But we can dream of who we want, can we?
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"dislocate your shoulder yet with all that back patting?"
Nah just wish you all would use a little better "LOGIC" in forming your opinion. And I made it clear it was "OPINION" back patting to me is somebody who goes on a "I TOLD YOU SO" when they are proven correct.
Am I proud of my posting of football...yes, I wish you were equally diligent in your research.
" i wouldn't rule out a 3-guy race."
The fact you would think an Undrafted Rookie on a roster only in 08 would actually be in the position to Compete for the starting QB job...pretty much makes my point. Not patting my back...just actually looking brilliant compared to the logic of some.... lol
Pdawg...yeah, I know who can tell 100% its just several things. Sanchez working from under Center, Excellent accuracy in all passes and mobility with accuracy. Good Huddle presence and managing the O - So much of what Mangini has described in what he wants here as a QB. If he didn't think BQ was worthy of those skills - I'm 99% sure he would have pulled the trigger on Sanchez.
Hurricane...sorry I know a DA provisionist would be an expert on Belief over Logic...but as usual when it comes to the QB situation nothing seems what it is. It was all Logic its a matter of if you are in denial or not...lol you guys amaze me.
"Why ? Because of their track record of taking franchise QBs ?"
How nice...no because its what Football people have repeated over the years. The fact you fail to acknowledge this just shows either Ignorance on the subject or just another sorry ass case of denial.
Oh I'm happy too that the Jets and don't forget the Redskins thought Sanchez was a Franchise QB cause that is what forced the competition to vie for our #5 pick. Still you are not countering with logic and denial that Sanchez was actually a Franchise QB "PROSPECT" there I'll add in that ASSumed fact of knowledge cause in your interest to make me look incorrect in my thought process - you are presenting the fact that there is a Franchise QB in the draft that I am somehow stating that he's a 100% Done deal.
No that is not what has been referred to as a Franchise QB in the draft...they are all prospects and there are a lot of hit or misses. But the given Football people concept has been for quite a while that if there is a kid that is a possible Franchise QB prospect - And you don't got one. You take one.
Lions...took one
Rams was a question mark on how they considered Bolger.
KC...got Cassel
Seahawks - minus Holgrem was thought to take Sanchez for the future as Hasselback winds down his career.
Browns....Now is the first team after the Lions coming without a clear picture here and we didn't really know how Mangini felt about BQ cause we had no real data on him. DA if you don't have a clue on DA by now then you don't belong Discussing this subject. At best DA is a big ??? - nobody in the NFL knocked on our doors for his services. If BQ was his equal for a true Competition then that meant in no way could the coaches think we had a Franchise QB. If you DA guys truly think Mangini is that stupid to pass up on a potential Franchise prospect when he thought we have none? That is just pure denial.
"Who knows what Mangini is thinking on this ?"
Regarding Ratcliff...do you all subcribe to the same Magazine???
Again if you think Mangini is that clueless that he would bring in a UDFA with one year of roster experience and who has thrown a total of ZERO PASSES in the NFL and think he is a TRUE COMPETITION for the starting QB there is a line where opinion ceases and silliness takes fold. But then your premise is that DA is our Franchise QB so I half to remember who I'm dealing with...Dong, Hurricane and Loyal Dawg.... man I feel like I just walked in a field and have all these little tiny bites on my ankles.
"Are you telling us that they aren't happy with their QB options and are just stuck with DA ?"
Is this Candid Camera? You cannot be that silly Where am I remotely saying that.
Here I'll have to do it again for your denial club.
DA is not that good, he is young and he has had 27 starts there is value but apparently as a backup.
Nobody wanted to give up any draft picks of merit for DA - no action from the NFL teams needing a starting QB.
There is no Collectively as a UNIT we are satisfied with our position status so as to pass up Sanchez...We have to be satisfied with our position of having a Starting QB who can prove to be our Franchise QB...one who matches what has been described as the variables in choosing their starter. Accurate, Good Huddle presence, Manage the Offense...Now who possibly could that be.
Stuck with DA? no, he makes a fine Backup QB and the NFL has need for them.
Will we move him if a team shows interest....not for a late round pick we lose cap space not save by moving him and we like his asset as a back up.
Now give me some football or freakin Logic you got to have more than concept.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The fact you would think an Undrafted Rookie on a roster only in 08 would actually be in the position to Compete for the starting QB job...pretty much makes my point. Not patting my back...just actually looking brilliant compared to the logic of some.... lol
i think many of us here reading your "logic-based opinion" see that you're reaching a bit to say that the actions at the draft reflect directly on a positive opinion of quinn. it's a possibility but it's not the only possibility nor is it the only logical conclusion.
that said, it is not a reach to say that ratliff could be in the race. i made no stretch whatsoever when i pointed out that
1) ratliff shredded us last preseason
2) mangini loves ratliff
3) daboll was ratliff's qb coach and is now the OC
4) ratliff has an "advantage" in that he has been in the system for the past two years.
the simple fact of the matter is mangini has no ties to any of the qbs except ratliff and time and time again, it shows that coaches always want their guy at qb. heck, mcdaniels sent cutler packing just because he trusted cassell more. i made no stretch because i never said ratliff will be our starter, i simply said to not count him out and he could be part of the qb competition. many believed he would be the starter for the jets this season before mangini was fired.
more importantly, i'm not so overly smug about my "logical opinion that looks even more brilliant when compared to others" (just jabbin you)
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1) ratliff shredded us last preseason
And the Lions went 4-0 in the preseason. They were certainly one of the top teams in the league last year.
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2) mangini loves ratliff
And you know this how?
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3) daboll was ratliff's qb coach and is now the OC
That certainly makes him the QB of their dreams!
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4) ratliff has an "advantage" in that he has been in the system for the past two years.
I'll take actually playing time over holding a clipboard.
I'm by no means saying that BQ is the answer - we just don't know, but anyone who can't see that DA stinks amazes me. We KNOW what we have in him, a QB that his digressed after teams figured him out. I'll take him as a backup any day, but as a starter no thanks - I've seen enough.
#gmstrong
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Hurricane...sorry I know a DA provisionist would be an expert on Belief over Logic...but as usual when it comes to the QB situation nothing seems what it is. It was all Logic its a matter of if you are in denial or not...lol you guys amaze me.
And a BQ provisionist uses his belief that someone MUST be a DA provisionist if they don't follow their spin.
The FACTS are that we have 4 QBs in camp and we have no idea of what Mangini is thinking. We can speculate and TRY and pass our ideas as logic , yet when the day is done we don't know crap.
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How nice...no because its what Football people have repeated over the years. The fact you fail to acknowledge this just shows either Ignorance on the subject or just another sorry ass case of denial.
Yet when the football people say THEY are holding a compitition the BQ provisionist holler crap and say we should use their Sherlock Holmes logic to deduce that this is smoke and BQ will be the starter.
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Oh I'm happy too that the Jets and don't forget the Redskins thought Sanchez was a Franchise QB cause that is what forced the competition to vie for our #5 pick. Still you are not countering with logic and denial that Sanchez was actually a Franchise QB "PROSPECT" there I'll add in that ASSumed fact of knowledge cause in your interest to make me look incorrect in my thought process - you are presenting the fact that there is a Franchise QB in the draft that I am somehow stating that he's a 100% Done deal.
No actually I'm countering that you think BQ is a done deal... The Franchise.
You can fall in love with your expert evaluation process, but we really just don't know if BQ is a franchise QB as of yet.
Not to say he can't , because I believe he could be , we just don't have enough data.
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But the given Football people concept has been for quite a while that if there is a kid that is a possible Franchise QB prospect - And you don't got one. You take one.
In some camps this is true , not all.
We don't really know what camp Mangini resides in do we ?
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Browns....Now is the first team after the Lions coming without a clear picture here and we didn't really know how Mangini felt about BQ cause we had no real data on him.
And we still don't
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DA if you don't have a clue on DA by now then you don't belong Discussing this subject. At best DA is a big ??? -
What I think about DA is irrelevant to this , but I have my opinion on DA and it's not blinded by the glare of BQ. I know his question marks , but that doesn't mean BQ has none.
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nobody in the NFL knocked on our doors for his services.
You keep making this statement as if you know , so surly you can provide me with the link where management states this .
How do you know somebody didn't inquire about DA and were told he's not available ?
Answer you don't , just more of your Sherlock Holmes logic ?
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If BQ was his equal for a true Competition then that meant in no way could the coaches think we had a Franchise QB. If you DA guys truly think Mangini is that stupid to pass up on a potential Franchise prospect when he thought we have none? That is just pure denial
.
Why , because in your evaluations you don't think DA could be the one Mangini thinks is the Franchise QB ?
We don't know what Mangini is thinking , he's not talking.
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Regarding Ratcliff...do you all subcribe to the same Magazine???
I don't wast my money on media generated crap they know about as much as you and me, and Mangini still ain't talking.
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But then your premise is that DA is our Franchise QB so I half to remember who I'm dealing with...Dong, Hurricane and Loyal Dawg....
I can't speak for the others , but show me where I stated DA was a franchise QB.
In fact I'm not sure we have one .
Maybe if you get your wish we can get enough data on BQ to determine that.
Orrrrr If DA wins the NON-compitition we might find one in him.
Orrrr If outa the blue Ratliff smokes them all .
Who knows because , Mangini still ain't talking.
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man I feel like I just walked in a field and have all these little tiny bites on my ankles.
My my my , aren't we full of ourselves.
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Is this Candid Camera? You cannot be that silly Where am I remotely saying that.
I thought that was part of the logic proclaiming BQ a franchise QB.
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DA is not that good, he is young and he has had 27 starts there is value but apparently as a backup.
And what scouting staff did you say you were in charge of ?
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Nobody wanted to give up any draft picks of merit for DA - no action from the NFL teams needing a starting QB.
Belief or fact ?
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There is no Collectively as a UNIT we are satisfied with our position status so as to pass up Sanchez...We have to be satisfied with our position of having a Starting QB who can prove to be our Franchise QB...one who matches what has been described as the variables in choosing their starter. Accurate, Good Huddle presence, Manage the Offense...Now who possibly could that be.
Translation: We BQers can use one game as proof of BQs poweress but you DAers don't have enough data to say BQ isn't the next Peyton Manning. LOL
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Stuck with DA? no, he makes a fine Backup QB and the NFL has need for them.
And if Mangini doesn't see it your way , wellllll your gona become the least credible poster here.
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Now give me some football or freakin Logic you got to have more than concept.
I"ll get back to you after I finish my Sherlock Holmes school of logic book.
Last edited by hurricaned; 05/04/09 01:33 PM.
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