DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum The Indians need to have a Fire Sale

We officially have the worst record in baseball. We’re 7 games out, and have only won 1 series all year long. We have been shutout in back -to -back games against Detroit this weekend . I know it’s only 31 games in, but I don’t think this roster presently constructed has what it takes to turn things around. Tonight was a microcosim of our year. We have runners on 1st and 2nd, none out in the 7th, trailing 2-0 with Deluicci up. He tries 2 times to get a bunt down to no avail. Next pitch he lines out to 3rd, which starts a double play, since Choo was leaning too far off 2nd. Instead of having 2nd and 3rd with 1 out, we have 2 outs and a runner on first. The same exact scenario happened in the top half of the 7th inning. They had runners on 1st and 2nd with 0 out. But the Tigers get their bunt down, which lead to them scoring the 1st run of the game with a groundout.

I think it’s time to clean house and start building for the future. I’ve seen enough of Wedge for 7 years. The team is unable to play good fundamental baseball under Eric. In our 7 wins, we’ve scored 8 runs or more. 12 times this year we’ve scored 3 runs or less. This right here shows the inconsistency to manufacture runs when you’re up against good pitching, or the offense has an off night. It’s either all or nothing with wedge, and this has happened throughout his tenure. The offense strikes out way too much which limits our opportunities to manufacture runs.

I’m looking at the roster right now, my main objective would be to aquire some young starting pitching, a young 3rd baseman, and a 2nd baseman. I know the organization is really high on Lonnie Chisenhall who is playing A ball at Kinston. He could be our future 3rd baseman in a couple of years, but I still want another 3rd base prospect. We seem to be really strong in the minors at 1st base/dh. I know Carlos Santana who we received for Casey Blake is lightning it up in Akron. He’s a catcher.

If I’m Shipiro the only untouchables on the roster would be Sizemore, Carmona, Laporta, Cabrera, and Choo. Some may disagree with Choo, but I see a lot of upside with him. Everyone else I would be open to trade including Lee, and Victor. I know Lee is a free agent after next year. I would offer him an extension of 3 years, $42 million. I think that’s fair. At the end of next year he will be 32, and I would not offer him more than 3 years. If he refused, I would trade him. In return we should at least get 1-2 pitching prospects, and maybe a third prospect as well. The only reason I would consider trading Victor is we are very deep at the position in the minors. Beau Mills is a rising star in our farm system. Victor’s contract is up next year as well. He’s the same age as Lee (30). If Mills isn’t ready to take over by 2011, I would offer Victor a 3 year extension at $30 million. I do think we could get 2 solid prospects for Victor.

I believe Hafner is washed up. I don’t think we could do a whole lot with him. None will want his contract. He’s here until his contract his up. He could be a part time DH. Maybe gives us 90-100 games a year.

Derosa, Peralta, Delucci, Wood, and Garko would all be gone in the next month. I suppose we could trade Betancourt as well. He is the only reliever with any trade value as I see it besides Wood. Sipp does also, but he’s a keeper.

Unless it got out of hand, I would fire Wedge, Willis, and Shelton at the end of the year.

What do you think??

unless we get a sizemore, lee trade, i think you may be jumping the gun on this one. this season is super frustrating so far, but we have to at least keep the faith.

turn the season around, and start at the bullpen

I don't know about a fire sale, but I would go another direction and replace Wedge.

No, he can't make players hit and pitchers pitch, but he can set the tone, and it seems every year, the tone in the early going is pretty off key.

We don't have any fire to sell.

We have several nice parts to sell if we wanted to do so....I just don't think we need to sell.

I'd start with a mgr. change first. I don't totally dislike Wedge but his firing needs to come before a wholesale dump of talent.

I'm going today and will stop by Shapiro's seats and tell him the "DawgTalkers" have spoken!

Check out the quote from Mike Hargrove in an article about Manny Ramirez' suspension in todays Plain Dealer ...

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/124194424744090.xml&coll=2

Quote:

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Hargrove, who lives in Richfield, leaves this week to manage a summer league team of college players in Liberty, Kan., for the second straight year in the Jayhawk League. They finished fourth in the nation last year after earning an at-large bid.

"After that, I'll come home and see if anyone gives me a call to manage again," said Hargrove. "I'd like to give it one more shot."

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I wasn't always crazy about Hargrove's managing, but he's still the best Indians' manager in my lifetime. I might give him a shot. I think Wedge has lost this team.

Kind of hard to panic yet. I know, I know.....the numbers are not good but baseball is a really strange game. Unless you think our bullpen just isn't going to get any better, you don't trade anyone before the all-star break.

It's been a disappointing year but the Indians still have a bright future. I mean, they're essentially some DECENT bullpen play away from being at or close to the top of the division. It's honestly not several problems, which is the key. It's literally one. You don't have a firesale when that's the case.

They're scoring runs, getting quality starts from just about everyone but the bullpen couldn't throw it past a wet paper bag right now. Instead of having a fire sale, go find 1 or 2 back end arms and see what happens. We're scoring 5+ runs per game (158 total). That should win you ALOT of baseball games. Just for comparison's sake, Kansas City has one of the best records in baseball and has only scored (143).

Give it some more time. You gotta be atleast 50-60 games in before you start making any personnel decisions (in terms of starting to trade assets). If they continue to flounder, start getting rid of guys in the pen but don't trade positional players (maybe save some value vets like a Mark Derosa).

Who would you propose trading?

Lee is the only guy that would get us anything....do you really want to do that?

j/c

Just because Hargrove did well here before doesn't mean he'd do well here again. Fans are always wanting to go back to the last thing that worked, but that doesn't mean it would work again.

That being said, and as 'Peen said, Wedge seems to always have a hard time early on. When you have to be fighting your way back starting in May, you're going to have a long road ahead of you.

I liked earlier this season when he said that Peralta and Rafael Perez have a tough time early in the season because of the cold weather. I mean, are you kidding me? My reply to that would be "figure it out or you're gone."

But, Wedge can't make the bullpen better. Actually, maybe he could by just pitching himself. I mean, can he do worse?

I just look at games like the other night when Lee pitches really well, Sizemore ends the game with a homer but for a great defensive play. Hey, that's life.

But when your starter only gives up 1 run, you've gotta win.

If the Tribe can just start winning the series, they're going to shoot up the standings quickly. 2/3 here, 3/4 there, maybe sweep a series, then you're back in the thick of things.

But you can't dig yourself too much deeper of a hole and expect to turn it around.

I'd love to have 'Grover back.

To be honest, I don't think we need a fire sale. I think we need a good #4 hitter, a good bat at the bottom of the lineup, and a couple good relievers.

- Free agency my friend.

- There is a good core to this team. - Lee, Sizemore, Fausto, Victor, Choo, Shoppach - All great players.

- Give me a true # 4 hitter - An Albert Belle, or Frank Thomas, kinda guy. Then give me a hard hitting second or third basemen - Robby Alomar, or Travis Fryman type.

- Then give me a couple good setup guys.

This team stinks.

We should hire Lou Brown as manager.

"Gee I don't know, let me call you back, I got a guy on the other line who wants to talk to me about some white walls."

"Forget about the curve ball Ricky, give 'em the heater"

I don't know about a fire sale but we do need something. This team is a bunch of "Chokes" They can't hit in the clutch but if you take the pressure off they are very dangerous. Wedge has to go. Did anybody else notice Victor didn't run out a weak ground ball to 2nd? He was coasting to 1st when the 2nd baseman misplayed the ball. Victor tried to run a little faster when he saw the 2nd baseman drop it but was still out by a step. I know everybody can't be Grady Sizemore but for the money these guys make you would think they could run out a ground ball. I think Wedge has lost the team.

I'm calling it now, Wedge won't last May if we continue at this pace. If we can finish off May with a .500 record or near, he'll stay. There's no reason this team should have the WORST record in baseball (middle relief issues or not).

As I stated earlier I went to yesterdays game. About mid way through I said to my wife, "someone needs to poke this team with a stick to see if they're even alive"! There was no activity in the dugout! They were listless and totally uninspire! I blame most of that on Wedge. Having said that, this team has NO leader, NO heart and soul. NOBODY steps up and sets an example!

I thought DeRosa might be the guy to do just that but he seemed uninterested in being there at best! Peralta doggedly fielded balls hit his way
and Grady, as much as I like him, is a dud as a leader!

Cabrera is the man though! Guy is a stud and seems to be the only guy having fun!

Just my 2 cents.

j/c...

Too bad we have the worst record now instead of last year so we could draft the pitcher from San Diego State that throws 103 mph...

Strasburg went out and threw a 17K no-no in his final game, he is nasty.

I think he's gets to stay home, San Diego has 1st pick, right?

No, the Nationals do.

NRTU

Does anyone know why a) Dellucci is DH instead of Garko and b) why Dellucci is on this team? What kind of DH is 0 fer 7 out of ten games? Dude can't even draw a walk. Does he have pictures of Wedge naked with Pauly Shore or something?

What pick do the Indians have?

The only downfall to Strasburg is that Scott Boras is his agent. He's gonna bank big time and he'll definitely be in the majors by the end of the year...

He'd probably be the Nats #1 right now...

I remember reading about that guy a year ago on espn.com. I don't know if it was Gammons or Olney, but they said he was the best prospect they have ever seen. If he's that good, he should be in the big leagues by next year.

here's the article:

So just how good is Stephen Strasburg, the San Diego State right-hander who is regarded as the No. 1 talent in this year's draft?



"The best I've ever seen," says a longtime scout. "And it's not even close."


C'mon. Better than Mark Prior? Remember how incredible he looked coming out of Southern Cal -- tall, big legs, good mechanics, robot-like. You're saying he's better than what Prior was then?

"Easily," says the scout, over the phone. "I'm telling you, it's not even close."


What did you see in him? "The day that I saw him pitch, his first fastball was 99 mph, and he was at 100-102 mph the rest of the way," says the scout, who is not one for hyperbole.



Yeah, heard he had a good fastball. Straight as a string, right? "That's the thing," said the scout. "Whenever you see a fastball at 100 mph, it's always straight. No movement. But his fastball has a lot of movement, which really doesn't make that much sense, because it's on the hitter so quickly. His fastball cuts."


Wow. His secondary stuff must be a work in progress. That's the way it usually is with guys who are that overpowering at that age.


"No," said the scout. "He's got a plus slider, at 93-94 mph, and he's got a plus changeup. He's the best I've ever seen."


How are his mechanics? "Fine," says the scout. "Looks totally fine to me. No real concerns."


Strasburg has thrown 20.1 innings this season, and he has 45 strikeouts. That means that out of the 61 outs he's registered, 45 are by strikeout. "It's like watching someone play one of those baseball video games for the first time -- it's like the hitters are completely guessing where he's going to throw the ball," said the scout. "They're just swinging in a spot and hoping that's where he throws it, because they can't track it."


The way you're describing him, I say to the scout, you're talking about someone who could be in the big leagues this summer?


The scout laughs. "You could put him in a rotation right now, and he could be a No. 2 or No. 3 starter," says the scout. "Right now, he's better than A.J. Burnett."


So in other words, in this scout's eyes, Stephen Strasburg, the ace of the San Diego State Aztecs, is better than the No. 2 free agent pitcher in the offseason, and he could be the ace of the Washington Nationals by the end of the summer -- if they decide to take him.


Here's the primary mitigating factor about the greatest pitching prospect that this scout has ever seen: He's represented by Scott Boras, who has been known to hold out players for months, for years, in his effort to get his clients what he deems to be a fair-market price. Who knows what Boras has in store.


So by the time the draft is held in June, there is going to be immense pressure on the Nationals to draft Strasburg and get him signed, for at least a half-dozen reasons:

1. They've been a disappointment since moving to Washington. Based on the television ratings, it's fair to say that the Nats' fans aren't growing restless so much as they haven't really been paying attention to a team that has basically been terrible.

2. The Nationals really don't have an identity. Strasburg would give them an identity, immediately, a talent that would inspire the fans and draw them to the club's year-old park.

3. The Nationals failed to sign their No. 1 pick from last year, Aaron Crow.

4. A player that the Nationals touted as a top prospect turned out to be the baseball version of Milli Vanilli -- a player who falsified his age, in a revelation that led to the dismissal of assistant Jose Rijo and GM Jim Bowden.

5. Stan Kasten may well choose his next general manager by the time the June draft rolls around, and the organization would not want to saddle that GM with the responsibility of explaining why the club either passed on the top talent in the draft, or why the team failed to sign the player.

6. The Nationals need pitching. Desperately. They will not be relevant in the NL East until they get more pitching.

If the Nationals passed on Strasburg, the Mariners presumably would pounce on the opportunity to pick the right-hander, given how much grief the organization has taken for passing on a local kid named Tim Lincecum a few years ago. And with the addition of Strasburg, the Mariners' rotation would have a backbone of Felix Hernandez, Brandon Morrow and The Greatest Pitching Prospect Ever.

There is a school of thought, among some teams, that drafting a pitcher very high in the first round carries too much risk. If catcher Matt Wieters was in this draft, for example, some teams might be inclined to take him, as a rising star prospect who might play 10-15 years in the majors, over Strasburg, as good as he is.

But, as Keith Law writes in our daily draft blog, there doesn't appear to be anyone comparable to Strasburg. He appears to be the best talent in this draft, and in the mind of some, the best talent ever. The immortal Sidd Finch has come to life, without the quirks and the baggage, and he's pitching for San Diego State. For now. He may well be in the big leagues, if somebody meets Boras' asking price, by August or September.

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/ind...%3dolney_buster

That guy sounds pretty good.

Quote:

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If he's that good, he should be in the big leagues by next year.

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By this year.

Here's a longer article about him: web page

Tribe needs to fire a few and sell the rest. I think there MIGHT be about or five keepers. The rest do not belong in the Bigs, and a huge part of the problem is pitching (no lead is safe), the manager, the ball boys, the ticket takers, man I have heard EVERYBODY blamed to the point of lunacy. Those who hit and those who pitch. Period. Until we buy some arms, and enough bats to back them (sorry, Hafner is far from worth the Deal), then we stink.

Is Shapiro getting a free pass here? If so, why?


Wedge coached many of these same guys in previous years and was able to get the team turned around and be in position to make a playoff run.
The only thing that has changed is the talent... and that isn't Wedge's domain. Wedge can't cook a good meal if Shapiro gives him crap ingredients.


Is the problem the Chef or the Shopper?

Lee with a gem today (7 IP no runs). 4-0 Tribe win! And they won the 3-game series too! Only 6 games out of first....and 3 behind the White Sox!