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Can the hatred for Mangini from the National Media get any worse.
You'd think we had George Bush as our HC 
JMHO...good most of us know we aren't anywhere close to 32.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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Winning this year isn't going to be about who is on the team but what plays they make. Here are some of the strengths of the team, However, this staff may just cut them all cause the staff is doing wierd things.
Eric Wright, Eric Wright made big plays when the Browns had success last year, and is a threat to score on defense. Mike Adams, even though he was the third safety last year he had alot of starts and made plays in those starts.
Brodney Pool, often overlooked the guy makes plays. Bottom line is , when they get a better focus teamwise on scoring on defense, getting points as a defense, each and every quarter all year long, not just getting turnovers but taking them into the endzone, they'll be a better team. If this happens they'll get some wins they might not have gotten.
#2 the offense has to be productive, and they have to put DA on the field, give him the team and a chance to lead them to the Super Bowl, he has alot of games with 7 or more scoring drives, fgs or td's and getting into the redzone maybe if they use Harrisson and Davis more they'll get some runs to the end zone around the corner.
If you honestly think this team is on par with 32nd in the league, look at the Detroit Lions, even in bad conditions, the Browns are a largely better team right now. That doesn't mean they'll win in Detroit, but they should, they should crush the lions, but they have to make the plays on the field.
Even Steptoe has a year more experience, so when he faces lesser db's he should be good for a few TD's Right?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Don't forget Buddy Bell and Joe...Joe...Char-ba-no(sp) 
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Quote:
Don't forget Buddy Bell andJoe...Joe...Char-ba-no(sp)
see what I started....and here you go: joe charbaneau
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't forget Buddy Bell andJoe...Joe...Char-ba-no(sp)
see what I started....and here you go: joe charbaneau
...admit you looked it up first.. 
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Legend
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It's still wrong...
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
Quote:
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This team has the makeup of a competitive team.
You don't know that. You don't know that at all. 
How? Teams with depth are competitive.
We have depth.
That is a perfect example of illogic.
Here's another: Roses are red. My friend is Rose. My friend Rose must therefore be red.
Stay in school.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I'm not too concerned at this point in time what he thinks. If he still thinks the same after camp and in the preseason, I might start to be alarmed.
Besides, if the Browns finish with a worse record than the Raiders or Lions, I will sever off my head with a butter knife.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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I'm a negative Nancy and even I don't believe we're THE worst team in the league.
Are some of you still excited about his prediction of Abram Elam making pro bowls in Cleveland?
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I'm not excited his prediction of Elam making Pro Bowls, but I am excited since I think the same thing.
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Quote:
Quote:
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This team has the makeup of a competitive team.
You don't know that. You don't know that at all.
How? Teams with depth are competitive.
We have depth.
Yeah, but we drafted a couple of 5th round guys instead of Rey M 
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Quote:
It's quite simple...
We've addressed just about all our problems in some fashion.
Couldn't run the ball last year? Replaced a finesse center with a strong, physical mauler. Is he only a rookie? Yes, but it's still an upgrade. Also signed a TE known for blocking.
Couldn't throw because Edwards was doubled and everyone else was worthless? Enter Robiskie, Massaquoi, Furrey, Patten, etc...we will have the best 6 receivers on the roster.
Hole at safety? Enter Elam.
Poor DL depth? We addressed that.
Poor ILB next to Jackson? Enter Barton + draft picks that may pan out.
Poor pass rush? Enter Rob Ryan, Alex Hall in his second year, and David Veikune (who at the absolute worst will be a situational rusher this year).
Poor CB depth? We basically added a whole new secondary this year...one of these guys should fill in well in the nickel and dime packages...packages that absolutely KILLED us last year because we had no depth beyond the #2 spot at CB.
We took care of everything...and although we're not "stacked everywhere," we have INSURANCE everywhere. We have guys who can fill in. Will we be a dominant team? Most likely not. Will we be a competitive team? Absolutely. This roster has the makeup of a competitive team against this sort of schedule. Hell, last year's team was competitive before Quinn's finger fell off and Crennel became a lame duck.
That gives me reason to hope. My mind will change if Edwards is moved though (unless we pick up a monster passrusher in return). Edwards means everything to opening up the passing game for everyone else...and this year we'll have the ability to take advantage of that.
I have to wonder about your logic... it this was the answer, the skies would open up, a chorus of angels would start to sing, and the Browns would win the superbowl. 
What the Browns don't have in quality they have in quantity, but you can only put 11 on the field at any given time. Half of the insurance policies that were picked up during FA or the draft won't be on the roster opening day. The numbers are not there.
This season the run defense and pass rush are the key to the Browns level of sucess. Last year they were hurt by injuries (most notably Quinn and Anderson) and a tough schedule, this year should be better...
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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I wonder how the Lions would have done last year playing the Ravens and Steelers in the AFC North, and playing the AFC South and NFC East to boot.
Is it possible to win negative games?
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Wow! Petes got a scoop. Somebody call action news! The Browns are a bad team? Does president Coolidge know about this? I don't think its as bad a Pete makes it out to be. I'll bet our revamped OL, lost a step RB, mystery QB and butterfinger R corpses get a TD by the 8th game. Take that Pete. In your face sucker.
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Quote:
Wow! Petes got a scoop. Somebody call action news! The Browns are a bad team? Does president Coolidge know about this?
I don't think its as bad a Pete makes it out to be. I'll bet our revamped OL, lost a step RB, mystery QB and butterfinger R corpses get a TD by the 8th game. Take that Pete. In your face sucker.
butterfinger R corpses 
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Ah yes, the beauty of the NFL.
Nobody knows nothing. Last year they all had the Brown's winning the division and the Falcons in last place. Not to mention the Dolphins.
If somebody had told me we would lose 12 games last year; well I would have been all in.
There are just to many factors that can change the course of a season. The obvious one injuries is huge. Others include the jump second and third year players make. Each team changes 20 to 30 players that alone has a giant impact on how a team plays. When you look at each weeks games and see how many games are determined by one score, then factor into that: injuries, head coaching changes, coordinator changes, player changes, FA movement (add/delete), rookie impact, schedule etc etc. Predictions are almost laughable.
It is difficult enough to predict the outcome of a boxing match when only two people are involved and many facts are laid bare.
So for all the media and fans alike have at it boys and girls. But really don't take yourselves to seriously.
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Quote:
Quote:
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Don't forget Buddy Bell andJoe...Joe...Char-ba-no(sp)
see what I started....and here you go: joe charbaneau
...admit you looked it up first..
no way...did not look it up, though it could still be wrong....but if it is, noone tell my dad (one of his favorite players)
#gmstrong
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Until we prove otherwise, this franchise is terrible. We got lucky ONE whole year playing sub-par opponents.
We have no idea who our QB is, we have an aging RB and our DEF was horrendous last year. We also have a new coach w/ our revolving door policy.
You guys still not sure why we are ranked so low? It's pretty obvious - b/c this team is terrible.
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Quote:
Quote:
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This team has the makeup of a competitive team.
You don't know that. You don't know that at all.
How? Teams with depth are competitive.
We have depth.
Teams with quality starters are competitive, teams with quality starters AND depth play for championships... teams with just depth are mediocre at best.
a mediocre back-up to a really good starter is what you want, not a mediocre back-up to a mediocre starter.... We'll have to wait and see how good our starters are...
yebat' Putin
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Were a much much better football team than people think ... U all tend to forget how DECIMATED we were with INJURIES LAST YEAR ... that made us a HORRIBLE TEAM ...
if we stay healthy .. we'll be right there in the hunt for a PLAYOFF SPOT ... we have a decent football team RIGHT NOW ...
were not ready to compete for a championship ..... but STAYING RELATIVELY HEALTHY we'll be a VERY VERY COMPETITIVE FOOTBALL TEAM ..
I've been going to start a "myth" series to kill some time for the next few months .... .. and this is as good a subject to start it on as any ... will get the thread up in the next few days as I have some time .. this will break it down more ....
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All Pro
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Can the hatred for Mangini from the National Media get any worse.
You'd think we had George Bush as our HC
JMHO...good most of us know we aren't anywhere close to 32.
Yeah, wait until he gets a winner in Cleveland. It'll be the perfect storm. The Browns winning with Mangini at the helm. Mangini, who many still consider a rat for dropping the bomb on Bellichick. Mangini, who got ran out of New York and in many minds ruined Brett Farve's career. The hate will be flowing like a burning oil slick on the Cuyahoga. A stinky and hideous and ridiculous sight, indeed.
What a day that will be, a glorious day.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Quote:
Can the hatred for Mangini from the National Media get any worse.
You'd think we had George Bush as our HC
JMHO...good most of us know we aren't anywhere close to 32.
The best i can do is wish we weren't anywhere close to 32
BTW Did you see the Mangini presser? I'm pretty sure Gini and Bush had the same speech coach.
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Teams with quality starters are competitive, teams with quality starters AND depth play for championships... teams with just depth are mediocre at best.
a mediocre back-up to a really good starter is what you want, not a mediocre back-up to a mediocre starter.... We'll have to wait and see how good our starters are...
Let's look at the probable starting roster...
Offense (and I use more than 11 positions because of multiple formations that you see the most of...as in 3 WR and 2 TE sets)
QB: Quinn (don't know, but I'll GUESS quality)
RB: Lewis (Quality if he has anything left, ManKok believes he does behind a strong center)
FB: Vickers (high quality)
WR: Edwards (Superstar if his head isn't in his ass, which it won't be in a contract year)
WR: Robiskie (rookie...I can assume quality due to his pedigree)
WR: Furrey (quality #3)
TE: Heiden (quality)
TE: Royal (quality)
LT: Thomas (I'll just say "well duh")
LG: Steinbach (same)
C: Mack (at the very worst as a rook, still an upgrade)
RG: Womack/Tucker? (Not sure if Womack, quality if Tucker)
RT: Tucker/St. Clair (Quality if Tucker, Not sure if St. Clair)
Defense
NT: Rogers (like Thomas, "well duh"), S. Smith as quality backup unlike Rubin coming in last year
LE: R. Smith/Coleman (quality), whoever wins this battle
RE: Williams/Coleman (quality), once again, whoever wins this battle, and whoever comes off the bench will play well in a depth role
ILB: Barton and Jackson (both quality, but not dominant)
OLB: ????????? I can't answer this one because we are either very young or need to improve at this position...my biggest worry
CB: Wright/McDonald (One of them will emerge as quality...not sure about the other)
Nickel/Dime CB's: Ivy, Poteat, Francies, Carey...may the best man win...but for the nickel and dime roles they should fill in well
Safety: Pool, Elam, Adams...3 quality safeties, and Francies or Cribbs might play back here too
Basically my point is we have quality starting talent in most of our positions, we're not playing poor backups all over the place even in rotational/formational situations.
Defensively, our nickel and dime packages killed us the most because we couldn't cover snails in 2008...think of how many times we gave up 3rd down because our nickel and dime packages could do jack squat. This year it appears on paper that we can.
Offensively, we couldn't run against tough defenses because we had too much finesse up front...we addressed that. Plus, we had no receiving threat past our #2 receiver who was horribly ineffective for us.
It's not a spectacular roster but it's not one that's going to kill us like last year's squad. Very few teams have many superstars anyway...most of the time it's "how well does your depth play in the nickel and dime packages, and 3 and 4 WR sets?"
Diam sums it up perfectly (and since he thinks I have no football knowledge then he must not have any either because I agree with him)...the roster is competitive, but not world beating. I don't think it has to be to be competitive, especially against this schedule.
A lot of it is going to be about having the team mentally prepared and focused...too many times last year we weren't focused and it killed us in close games.
Last edited by Ammo; 05/12/09 03:46 PM.
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You overrate our players. Or maybe you and I think of the word quality differently. When I think quality I think a "good starter in the top half of the NFL as far as performance". When I evaluate that player, he is one of the Top 16 players at his specific position. He would be a starter today for half the teams in the league. I'll tell you my evaluation: Plus is a Top 16 starter, Minus is not. Offense (and I use more than 11 positions because of multiple formations that you see the most of...as in 3 WR and 2 TE sets) QB: Quinn - RB: Lewis - FB: Vickers + WR: Edwards + WR: Robiskie - WR: Furrey - TE: Heiden - TE: Royal - LT: Thomas + LG: Steinbach + C: Mack - RG: Womack/Tucker? Womack - , Tucker + RT: Tucker/St. Clair? Tucker - , St. Clair --  Defense NT: Rogers + LE: R. Smith/Coleman - RE: Williams/Coleman - ILB: Barton and Jackson - OLB: ????????? - CB: Wright/McDonald - Nickel/Dime CB's: Ivy, Poteat, Francies, Carey - Safety: Pool, Elam, Adams + That adds up to: Plus 7 Minus 14 and that would be more if we went individually through the defense. That adds up to a below average team IMO. This is not a team stacked with quality starters. Sure there's some potential like Quinn, Mack and others but I'm talking starters today. Now let's see if Mangini can couch them up!
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
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when you say "couch" them up, do you mean teach BQ to throw into triple coverage?
gmstrong -----------------
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the problem is noone knows today if Quinn, Mack and others would start for 16 teams in the league or not (as you set your parameters)....so, right there you are starting -4 (Quinn, Mack, Robiskie, Nickelback) when you should have an incomplete on those.
then there is your curious rating on some others...
the main one I want to point out is.....Coleman was a starter last year for a 3-4 team and very good against the run. so, why wouldn't he be a '+'...is it because a 4-3 team wouldn't start him? Denver, KC and GB would all love to have him with their ill-fitting 3-4 DL.
but anyway, this would be setting us up for a top16 team....ammo's response was saying we were better than #32 and the dregs down there.
#gmstrong
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I'm in between both of you.
QB: Quinn +
RB: Jamal +
FB: Vickers +
WR 1: Braylon +
WR 2: Robiskie - (He's a rookie)
WR 3: Furrey +
TE: Rucker (I'd say even or minus for now, but who knows?)
Heiden -
Royal -
LT: Thomas +
LG: Steinbach +
C: Mack +
RG: Tucker +
RT: St. Claire -
RE: Robaire/Coleman +
NT: Rogers +
LE: Williams +
ROLB: Wimbley -
RILB: D'Qwell +
LILB: Barton -
LOLB: Hall/Bowens/Veikune (Even)
CB 1: Wright +
CB 2: McDonald +
CB 3: I don't know, but it's probably a negative.
FS: Elam +
SS: Pool +
K: Dawson +
P: Zastadil +
LS: Pontrbriand +
KR: Cribbs +
PR: Cribbs +
ST: Cribbs +
That's 23 positive, 9 negative and 1 even.
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When I was evaluating the front 7 on defense I was evaluating it based on the other teams that run the 34. It shouldn't be debateable that we have the worst 34 personnel as a group in the NFL. The only player that is above average IMO is Rogers.
The teams that play the 34 would not trade our DEs for theirs, not our ILBs althought that may warrant some debate, and certainly not our OLBs.
Our CBs are young, improving and currently very beatable. Our nickle backs are either geriatric or Day 2 noobies.
Our safeties are well above average as a group though IMO but that's debateable.
and to Deep....I can't fathom how it could be even close to 50/50 let alone your position.
And on the coaching them up! hahaha
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If you want to go in depth, I will, but until then, I will just say, that our record will speak for itself.
I also say that we have very good defensive ends. I think Baltimore (depending on whether you call Ngata an end or not) and Pittsburgh both would. Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel are not that good.
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I'm just curious.
Quinn, Lewis, Heiden/Royal, Mack
Corey Williams, Coleman 3-4 DE's
Barton
DQ
EWright
McD
Curious on what 15 you deem better for those positions???
JMHO - going by your less than top 16...most curious on DQ especially - one of two deemed untouchable by M/K
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel are not that good.
You are insane. They might be the best 34 ends in football. It's between them and New Englands.
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Put them anywhere else, and they are average. That's it.
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I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, that the Browns are below average, but... you have all + and - how about one or two =  Like the guy from OBR I'm not convinced that Elam and Barton are upgrades.OTOH why would Kokogini allow Jones and Davis to walk unless they believed that Elam and Barton were better options ? Same with Peek, Big Willie, Friedman,McKinney, Holley, Shaffer and a host of others ??? I don't belivee for one second that King knows anything that we as a forum collectively does not.
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Quote:
I'm just curious.
Quinn, Lewis, Heiden/Royal, Mack
Corey Williams, Coleman 3-4 DE's
Barton
DQ
EWright
McD
Curious on what 15 you deem better for those positions???
JMHO - going by your less than top 16...most curious on DQ especially - one of two deemed untouchable by M/K
EW and McD aren't even close to top. They are two of the worst starters at CB in the league. As a group they are the worst IMO. Wright doesn't have good ball awareness but he does have good physical ability. McD is far more suited to be a nickle and would be a + nickle.
As to your other players just look at the other teams that play the 34. Would they replace the guy they have at their position for our guy at ours. In a few instances it would happen but ZERO teams would trade their starters for ours straight up. ZERO.
And I rate DQ significantly lower than most here. It's my own evaluation based on what I see on the field. The hype behind him is completely unwarranted in this defense. He should be traded to a team where he could shine.
Quinn is still too new even though I do project him as a Top 10 QB in two or three years time. If your job depended on you winning a game today I'd take more than 16 others before I took Quinn.
Lewis has gotten old. With RBs over 30 it happens and it happens fast. I could come up with more than 20 starters and probably 35 players better than Lewis at this point.
Royal/Heiden - I rate Heiden quite a bit higher than Royal but even Heiden is a able bodied blocking TE with nice hands that is not a threat to beat average Tampa 2 defenses. That's the key for me and it gives you a big advantage when playing those teams. If your TE can't get behind the mike in the deep middle it would be tough for me to consider him a +.
Mack is a kid who might be da bomb in time. I'm guessing here obviously but I can't say he would beat out the top 16 other starting centers on NFL teams. I really don't know on that one though until I see him play against NFL competition.
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I couldn't disagree with you more. Keisel is a tough, stout guy and Aaron Smith looks like a guy who ate about 30 uppers and washed it down with a gallon of Red Bull when he's out there. Smith is the "rolling ball of butcher knives" personified.
I'd love to have both of them on our team.
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One of them would start opposite of Williams, but he is better than them both. Williams would start at end for any 3-4 team other than Pittsburgh (he doesn't fit their scheme) and New England, who far and away has the best 3-4 line in the NFL.
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Quote:
When I was evaluating the front 7 on defense I was evaluating it based on the other teams that run the 34. It shouldn't be debateable that we have the worst 34 personnel as a group in the NFL. The only player that is above average IMO is Rogers.
The teams that play the 34 would not trade our DEs for theirs, not our ILBs althought that may warrant some debate, and certainly not our OLBs.
Our CBs are young, improving and currently very beatable. Our nickle backs are either geriatric or Day 2 noobies.
Our safeties are well above average as a group though IMO but that's debateable.
Ok, so you switched from starting for 16 teams to other teams that run a 3-4....
The Denver Broncos and the KC Chiefs are switching to a 3-4 this year....the Broncos in particular have the worst 3-4 personnel, but KC would switch DL's with us in a heartbeat as well.
GB is switching as well, but I think they are better set at LB for a 3-4 anyway....it'd be debatable of whether or not they would switch DL's with us.
NE
Miami
NYJ
Pitt
Baltimore
*KC
*Denver
SD
Dallas
*GB
ATL (debateable...they sort of run a 4-3)
AZ
SF
*switching to 3-4 this year
Ok, I'm sure I missed someone, but that is 14 teams including us. It just so happens that 3 of the best defenses year-in and year-out (NE, Balt, Pitt) in the NFL happen to be included here and also the superbowl runner-up.
You finish above average at all positions in this group...and guess what...you have a top10 defense. That is definitely not us yet.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109 |
For the record, neither Arizona nor Atlanta run a 3-4. Arizona runs a 4-3 over, and Atlanta runs a straight up 4-3. And I don't think there's any doubt that these teams would switch d-lines with us:
Dolphins
Jets
Broncos
Chiefs
Ravens
49ers
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
thanks....i only saw one atlanta game last year and they dropped the DE way more than normal 4-3 teams do...so wasn't sure if it should be a form of 3-4 or not
#gmstrong
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Ooh, this is fun!
QB: Quinn ?
RB: Jamal - (I like Jamal, but there are a lot of good running backs in this league.)
FB: Vickers +
WR 1: Braylon +
WR 2: Robiskie ? (He's a rookie, yes, but we haven't seen yet)
WR 3: Furrey +
TE: Rucker -
Heiden - (close to even for me. sure he's not a super athelete but he's exceptionally reliable and an adequate blocker. There really aren't that many difference-makers at TE in the NFL. I'll be impressed and happy if Rucker is able to legitamitely unseat him, but this guy has been underappreciated here for years.)
Royal -
LT: Thomas +
LG: Steinbach +
C: Mack ?
RG: Tucker +
RT: St. Claire -
RE: Coleman +
NT: Rogers +
LE: S. Smith +
ROLB: Wimbley -
RILB: D'Qwell - (if you're an ILB behind a pro-bowl NT and you lead the league in tackles, that means your team can't stop the run to get off the field.)
LILB: Barton -
LOLB: Hall/Bowens/Veikune ?
CB 1: Wright +
CB 2: McDonald +
CB 3: -
FS: Elam +
SS: Pool -
K: Dawson +
P: Zastudil +
LS: Pontbriand +
KR: Cribbs +
PR: Cribbs +
ST: Cribbs +
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Peter King's Prediction: Browns
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