DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum ABJ article: Skilled coaches lost in staffing shakeups

Conspiracy?
LMAO

Savage came out and SAID these were RAC's decisions,not his.

That's not a conspiracy coach,that's a fact. Denying responsibility. Sorry you can't get a grip on the facts here Bud.

A conspiracy would have to mean I'm reading between the lines. Not reading the lines themselves.


If you're unwilling to do so,don't blame me.

And I think you might wish to do a little homework there coach. I haven't called for RAC or Savages job,anywhere.

I think the contant revolving door here is part of the problem,not a solution. So you're the one reaching for something that isn't there nor ever has been.

And even earlier in this thread Verse said "It's the first time he's questioned Phil's character" and I agree. So trying to say "I hate Phil or RAC" is your imagination based on NO facts whatsoever. Are you getting that desperate to "try" to prove a point? It would appear so.

LOL, the conspiracty is you laughable definition of Savage's comments. You CLAIM he is "denying responsibility" to protect himself. That's toatlly and completely absurd....which is why you are saying it. The simple fact is that RAC is taking a beating for being a "lame duck", not having any control, etc. Savage comes out and defends him by saying that he's making the decisions and you go off on this wild tangent. No one is denying what was said, they are rolling on the floor laughing at your absurd interpretation of his motivation. It's ridiculous....when I see your posts, I swear I picture a couple of old women standing in the back yard leaning on the fence and gossiping...what they don't know they make up and make it more and more outlandish. That's what reading these absurdities remind me of. You have nothing of substance, so you create something.....not that you're a stranger to that.

Savage came out and SAID these were RAC's decisions,not his.


We know what was said..but whats actually done behind the scenes is different and the public nor the media is not going to get to the bottom of it..
Now there's probably a measure of truth to the fact that Phil says it's Rac's staff, blah blah..it's Rac's team to coach ..but who brings in the players?

Well they both scout assistant coaches and Phil lets Rac interview them..and any outsider gets the job

"If that is the case, why such a big booster of what comes out of Berea?"

I was expecting a joke...but honestly - I didn't get it.

btw...rumor is hearsay - reading or watching presser's from the horses mouth so to say. I guess that is in that 50% category??? You can maybe increase those odds by seeing/reading several pulls from the same people and get a better gist of what is real n not real.

JMHO

Just a general reply:

In most cases, the Head Coach gets one round changes in his assistant coaching ranks .... and the GM gets one second chance at a Head Coach. (Matt Millen aside, who must have pictures/videotape of someone)

Go figure Coach...Posters got agenda's...lol What cracks me up is they are the first to LINE UP THE USUAL SUSPECTS...

One other thing I would like to add...the "RUMOR" is Davidson thinks he was Passed Over cause he was candid about some player evaluations that him and Savage had disagreements over and how they played? Well OL Shaffer??? We didn't have much of a choice I don't think it was that. Sowells? From all I heard (rumors so take it with a grain of salt) is Davidson had big say in that pick. Who? Vickers a 6th round pick? JJ? Wilson? For some reason I think it has to do with Dilfer and the rift with Mo Carthon and maybe Davidson through that in Savage's face cause he protected RAC n his choice of Mo and backed him??? Just a guess.

For all we know it might be Savage had a low evaluation of Sowells and Davidson argued with him on that? Who knows but Pat knows how to get people talking in the "DEAD ZONE"...lol

You can laugh coach. I've seen you laugh and regret it before. Nothing new there. But just remember it in a year or two.


When Savage kcks RAC to the curb and somehow comes out smelling like a rose. Time will tell coach.

And when you are wrong, you'll never mention your absurd allegations again....you know like avoiding the topic of lower gas prices you swore were all political and would skyrocket after the elections.

Time doesn't have to tell. Savage already did....you just ignore it and spin it...nothing new there.

I'm pointint it out to show that by keeping RAC, Opie has quite possibly made his job tougher, not easier.
Do we really know that is the case?
SAY we get better talent..enough talent to push the team to at least 7- 9 but it falls apart..who's the fault ?
Rac..
Now say a new HC was brought in and Rac fired..in this coach's first season he couldn't go 4 - 10 either..wouldn't that make Opie's butt under fire also?

One thought I have but not one poster will go there..suppose it's Lerner giving him another stay?

Quote:

---

• Savage said that half the interior offensive-line starters were taken on Day 2 of the draft or via free agency. ``History shows that you can find the center and guard spots on Day 2 of the draft,'' he said.

• An exception: Pittsburgh. Jeff Hartings, Alan Faneca and Kendall Simmons all were first-round picks. And the Steelers always run the ball well.

---

After reading the above comments, it bothered me to think that Savage 'may' be discounting the importance of emphasising the interior offensive line on the day one of the draft.

So I took a look at some of the best running attacks in the NFL to see where their interior offensive linemen were drafted. Below are the results...

JAGS...

Chris Naeole, #65-G, Drafted: 1997 - Rd 1 (10th overall) by the Saints-Jags-starter

Brad Meester, #63-C, Drafted: 2000 - Rd 2 (60th overall) by the Jaguars-starter

Vince Manuwai, #67-G, Drafted: 2003 - Rd 3 (72nd overall) by the Jaguars-starter

CHARGERS...

Mike Goff, #79-G, Drafted: 1998 - Rd 3 (78th overall) by the Bengals-now with Chargers-starter

Nick Hardwick, #61-C, Drafted: 2004 - Rd 3 (66th overall) by the Chargers-starter


REDSKINS...

Randy Thomas, #77-G, Drafted: 1999 - Rd 2 (57th overall) by the Jets-Redskins-starter

Casey Rabach, #61-C, Drafted: 2001 - Rd 3 (92nd overall) by the Ravens-Redskins-starter

Derrick Dockery, #66-G, Drafted: 2003 - Rd 3 (81st overall) by the Redskins-starter

Taylor Whitley, #72-G, Drafted: 2003 - Rd 3 (87th overall) by the Dolphins-Redskins-backup


49 ERS...

Justin Smiley, #65-G, Drafted: 2004 - Rd 2 (46th overall) by the 49ers-starters

Larry Allen, #71-G, Drafted: 1994 - Rd 2 (46th overall) by the Cowboys-49ers-starter

David Baas, #64-G, Drafted: 2005 - Rd 2 (33rd overall) by the 49ers-backup

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When considering the entire 32 teams, Savage might be right about finding Centers and Guards on day 2 of the draft, but do the Browns want to improve into the area of the top rushing teams in the NFL?

It sure looks like the best running teams in the NFL look to draft their interior offensive linemen on day 1. Even when acquiring free agent offensive linemen, these teams looked for the best available players, many who were day 1 picks.

Savage pointed the Steelers as an exception to his comment about getting interior linemen on day 2 of the draft but they ranked 10th in the NFL in rushing.

While Savages comments might be true when viewing the NFL overall, I don't believe the Browns are looking to stay in the bottom half of the league in the rushing dept. All the teams above ranked higher than the Steelers in rushing.

Well Toad,I get what you're saying. My point is,that Phil might have considered that firing RAC now,would be an indication to Jr. of admitimg his own failings and given cause for Jr. to question Phils job here as well.

And that by putting some distance between himself and RAC,may be just the buffer he needs to retain his job. It's all speculation at this juncture. I can see it going either way. I'm not saying I have the "end all" answer. But your opinion makes sense as well. I think we'll just have to see how the whole thing plays out.

JMHO

Perhaps not calling the shot but as a owner he has imput..
He did assist in Rac's hiring..
I think he's dissatisfied in the overall product..but after those meetings with Rac/Phil...I'm sure he let his feelings heard..and MAYBE Rac was not viewed to be let go yet..but as they already discussed last year, it was a 4 -5 year plan..one that needed patience..Phil continues to say that Lerner knows that..

That's just it, Pit (I am still laughing about YOU talking about respecting other posters BTW...pot meet kettle ), you have WAY too many "maybes, ifs, and coulds" in your scenario. OTs scenario, which I believe, makes MUCH more sense than those things you have thrown out, not as "could be", but as fact. Even if RAC is let go after this year, it doesn't prove that Savage was distancing himself from him. Giving RAC another year actually puts more pressure on Savage's job than cutting him loose when the time was right with the media and the fans. You don't garner support and security from impatient media, fans, and owners by showing patience and not having huge success with it

That's why I'm not for firing RAC. I say if he shows ANY "marked improvement" next year,give him another year.

Having a revolving door in your FO is one sure fire way to NEVER attain success. I'm not happy about losing. But I think by year three of a "five year plan" you should see "some improvement". That's all I'm hoping for realisticly.

I agree with you on that. What I have taken issue with is you stating that Savage was setting RAC up to take the fall. That's the part I think you are whacked out about

Isn't that a completly different subject from yet another thread? I could have sworn..............

j/c:

These discussions are becoming pointless. The same people line up and slam my opinions, predictions, and news. Then, when those things come true..........they never fess up. Instead, they turn right around and belittle the next thing I say. Well.........the kindest thing I can say is you all got some balls on you.

I want to think through a few things here.

---Why were so many coaches fired or let go this year? In other words, why so many changes? I thought the new regime was going to bring stability? I thought Junior was through changing things now that he had his guys here? It's been two years and we have lost multiple coaches.

---RAC is being set up because any fool knows that the Browns won't win next year either. Changes were made to appease the fans and media this year. But, what about next year when the Browns post another dismal record? Savage has NOT brought in the proper talent here. That's his fault. Not Robo's, Mo's, Davidson's, etc. And it won't be RAC's fault next year either, but watch and see if he will be around for 2008.

---It's kind of odd only a couple of us are addressing Davidson's comments on some of the offensive problems that Savage has brought in. And I know exactly who Davidson was criticizing, and I certainly understand why Dopie didn't like it.

---It is also laughable that so many discount articles that include quotes from the involved parties, but act like what Andre Knott said is gospel. KNR is not a flagship station, and that guy is clueless. But, you all believe every word he says. As usual, you guys are off base.

---Here's the bottom line. The Browns aren't going to win next year. I don't think they have a shot to make it to .500. And after that.........it's hard to say, but Dopie better start drafting some offensive and defensive linemen. Oh, who the hell is our quarterback? Who is the running back of the future? It amazes me that most posters are defending Dopie, when the most important units on a football [OL, DL, QB, RB] team are in complete shambles. How does he fix them all? He has not properly addressed these critical areas and people are losing jobs. Yet, most of you are happy w/his plan.

---It's okay though, because when the truth presents itself,ðyou guys will not own up and start [censored] on another topic. And you have the nerve to laugh at Pit and I.......

Pit...everyone and their Uncle knows that RAC doesn't win 6 + games in 07 he is good as gone. Less than 8 its touch n go. 9 n more pretty safe.

So its orchestrated by Savage? you guys Come on - not everything is Washington Post material.

And Savage will probably come smelling clean cause we'll probably have 2-3 more studs a growing than before and more in the oven...He will hand pick a HC - and yes if that is the way it goes he has a lot riding on that coaches success and the teams success in the interim.

His job is definately pretty secure as long as he keeps bringing in talent and has decent drafts. We can't help but bring a better product here.

I don't see how stating the obvious contrues some vast conspiracy you guys have concocted about Savage. I thought its a known fact RAC is on hot water to produce and Savage is not. Pure n simple. I see him making moves to make the Browns better...that only. Not some Cover up - protection scam.

And this is Realistic EO talking now not some PIE in THE SKY Shangrala guy you percieve me as...lol

Quote:

---

Pit...everyone and their Uncle knows that RAC doesn't win 6 + games in 07 he is good as gone.

---

Me and My uncle didn't know that Honestly, that sounds about right I suppose,, but let me throw a monkey in the wrench on this,,

what if we have another year where 12 13 14 or more starters go down and are lost for the majority of the season.... is it still reasonable for us, or Phil or Randy to assume it all lands on RAC's shoulders?

Now if I'm Randy or Phil,, I doubt I would fire RAC...

let me ask this another way,,,

What if your a home builder and lots of products that are bought for you are defective and you can't use them.... is it your fault? Should you be replaced by another builder?

OK,, now, your fired, and the next coach (builder) comes in and his players don't get injured (building products aren't defective), and you go on to win a lot of games (complete the house)

as the new coach or builder, are you that much better then the guy you replaced or just luckier?

All I'm saying is this, there are NO guarantees that RAC will be fired for X number of losses....

Some on here will tell you that it's a lock that RAC is going to be fired because it's a LOCK that the team won't win... OK,,,maybe that's true and then again,,, maybe not.

In either case, argueing over it makes little or no sense.... Frankly, most if not all of us know so little about the inner workings of a team that I bet guys like Randy and Phil and RAC and many others read this stuff and just laugh at how nutty we all are.... Let's not forget wierd, wacko and rabid... (they better not forget the rabid part)

Ok, I'm off my soapbox,,,, Continue without me if you don't mind....

The only one who has suggested a "mass conspiracy" here was coach. Not me.

As Peen said,and I agree,that RAC and Phil's fate may be more closly related than many think. The "cover your own ass" reaction by Phil,which I believe it was,is a natural human nature reaction.Not any kind of conspiracy.

I found Phil's statements just a little odd and sort of out of the norm for him. To the best of my memory,he has always considered it a "team effort" and that the two of them were involved in building this thing together.

And after all,when all is said and done,the bottom line falls in Phils lap. That's why he is the GM after all.But often times I've seen in my life,when someone is feeling insecure or threatented about their position,they try "not necassarily on purpose,but out of survival mode" to deflect blame or responsibility for possible failings,in the laps of others.

And IF Peen is right in his assertion that the two of them are more closly related in their job situations,that could easily be the case here. Nothing remotely related to a conspiracy. Just a natural gut reaction.

And why would you believe RAC made all these calls when it may be their future here is closly related? Unless of course Phil is trying to relieve himself of any responsibility for these hirings? It's far more plausible than many would like to admit IMO

you didn't really respond to any of what i said, PIT...nor did VERS...of course, those ideas don't jibe with your outlook, so they mustn't be worthy of your reply...

i'll make it easy on you guys...forget details of what i said, and try answering these questions according to your 'set-up' theory...how does keeping RAC on as a fall-guy do anything other than buy 1 additional year for Savage in Cleveland? and why is that helpfull for Savage's career? could he not land another job? would he not look WORSE on the job market if he had more time and multiple HCs in Cleveland with the same poor results? i know if my 'natural human reaction' (LOL) were to save my own ass, i wouldn't be thinking about 2007, i'd be thinking about 2008 and beyond...

I love how you talk out of both sides of your mouth and then get incredulous when someone calls you on it. You read so much into things that aren't there and then get all pompous when someone actually looks at what was said instead of interpreting it your way. Unreal

As I have said many times, Savage was responding to those out there, and there are/were many, who have been saying that RAC has no authority on the team. There has been rampant speculation that Savage is controlling everything and RAC is a "lame duck". Savage responds by telling us publicly that RAC is making decisions, has authority, and is preserving RAC's credibility. You use this as some sort of CYA move. It's ridiculous. Had he said nothing, you and others would still be spouting off about how it's so obvious RAC has no power. He comes out publicly and he's trying to save his own job. It's nice to see your M.O. is consistent...even if it's consistently wrong.

It is also laughable that so many discount articles that include quotes from the involved parties, but act like what Andre Knott said is gospel. KNR is not a flagship station, and that guy is clueless. But, you all believe every word he says. As usual, you guys are off base.

Clueless.. What he said coincides with the articles we saw that came following that one....do I need to go back and retrieve those also?
Naw..that took me long enough..
The PD articles and the ABJ also had similar stuff regarding the coaches..so how is that off base?

j/c

Here's another point for the conspiracy theorists. What if Savage is keeping RAC this season, knowing there could be a solid crop of coaches available next season, headed by Cowher? (Who I think becomes the next coach in Carolina if Fox has a bad year) Now I don't think for one minute it's true. I'll be surprised if Cowher comes north again. My point is, there are so many possible theories out there that it's easy to NOT believe what someone says directly i.e. Savage.

On another point, if Savage didn't have a say/hand in some of these decisions, many on here would complain that he was too far removed from the team or spends too much time scouting.

My beef with RAC isn't so much the Ws or Ls (though they are obviously very important). My problem with him comes from things like game management, failed replay challenges, etc. Things that a true head coach does well, and RAC doesn't seem to. He might be a great DC, but I question whether or not he's HC material, and it goes deeper than wins and losses.

As for the assistants, I don't have a problem with changing them. What's wrong with realizing you've made a mistake and trying to correct it? You need to surround yourself with the best possible people. Now if coaches were changed to save someone else's butt only, then that's a problem. And as someone mentioned earlier, none of us are behind closed doors or inside the minds of either RAC or Savage to know for sure what the real reasons are (if different from those stated publicly.)

if Savage didn't have a say/hand in some of these decisions, many on here would complain that he was too far removed from the team or spends too much time scouting.


Yes I know..the irony in it..

My beef with RAC isn't so much the Ws or Ls (though they are obviously very important). My problem with him comes from things like game management, failed replay challenges, etc.
Yeah looks like the idiots up in the press box should been hurled over the side..wait maybe they were!~

My beef is the lack of fire sometimes, the adjustments...and Rac's being out of touch with the offense..The defense didn't always make the proper adjustments either..

What's wrong with realizing you've made a mistake and trying to correct it? You need to surround yourself with the best possible people.

I think soo...if they were CANCERS...and it seems they were...not the ones who just walked away but the ones FIRED...get rid of them..

Quote:

---

My beef is the lack of fire sometimes

---

It's pretty true that RAC doesn't jump around on the sidelines and scream and yell very often.. But look at the mans eyes,,,,, it's like there is a volcano going on in there and he just keeps it in until he gets to the locker room.. Belichick is the same way, , , Several other high quality and winning coachs are that way also... I really don't know if it means anything at all.

But you know how it is,,, some will say he lacks fire so he should be fired

the rest of that statement, I agree with however.

lack of fire in the team Daman..

Oh,,,,Never mind

I can understand that... but by the same token I'd prefer they stay even keeled and level headed until they show the ability to consistently do the basics, which we haven't done a very good job at...... except, RAC has gotten penalties to the lowest point I can remember from a Browns team. We got a little sloppier toward the end of the season as starters began to disappear, but one of our banes since '99 has been kicked in the nuts, and discipline is the only thing that could have done it.

Hehheeeeee..Lerner/Collins really were the ones to bring Rac in..
There's that little window of time before the SB that coaches can be contacted..they contacted him briefly and right after the SB , Collins offered him the job ..t..I don't remember exactly but wasn't it brought out that Nolan was Opie's first choice?
Anyway, regardless they let Rac choose his staff..that was in February...now I don't even begin to recall who was left off the table to hire but it wasn't a great deal to choose from at that time..
U might say Rac started the fire but got the match from Opie..of course at that same time Opie was assembling his scouting staff..
Honestly I think they wanted to give the first time HC his choice-his selection of choosing a staff..

You keep saying that......but is it true??

If Savage signed off...it is his hire......no??