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** If Dice-K comes back healthy
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Let me ask you this though. Do you believe you guys were competing this year or next year?
The problem I have is two years ago we were competing and they did nothing to make the team better so now we are back to rebuiliding and more than likley 3 years away from competing if everything goes perfect.
But then what? Dolan hasn't shown that he is willing to get that one peice of the puzzle that we need when we need it. He won't spend. And I defended him the first few years, because he said he would spend when we were in a position to win. But he lied. We were in a position and he did nothing.
So they are dead to me untill they prove they are serious about building a championship caliber team.
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The problem I have is two years ago we were competing and they did nothing to make the team better so now we are back to rebuiliding and more than likley 3 years away from competing if everything goes perfect.
BANG ! BANG! BANG!!
Thats strickly on Mark..he was overconfident and thought he had everything in place..he needed another pitcher and a power bat..he was smacked back into reality..
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Amaro acquired Lee without giving up Drabek, rookie left-hander J.A. Happ, who was 7-1 going into his start at Arizona, or highly touted minor league outfielders Michael Taylor and Dominic Brown. "
How do U not demand and get one of these guys??
Because Mark Shrapnol is weak ...and a FOOL..he's turning out to be Jim Pasxon and Ted Step who managed the Cavs..he's so eager to deal away his talent that he'll SETTLE for whatever a team is willing to dump..they're not even going to miss those players when they get to keep and develop their top players..that's stupid..it's a joke..there's no one who can can remotely reason that the Indians are doing the best thing..
Or because if they were going to trade those guys at all, they would now have Halladay, not Cliff Lee.
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Baseball is a wonderfull game, but Selig & his band of idiots have ruined it. It's not about the game it's about the money, The game is set up so Teams like LA Philly, NY teams will succeed and teams like the Indians Pirates ect, can only dream, Teams in large markets will be able to afford who they want, teams in smaller markets will have to rotate players every year and pray.
it's to the point where sports in general sickens me anymore.
Reality this week was when I turned the TV from the Tribe VS the Angles over to the Deadlest Catch. Years ago that would have never happened.
I really hope Shapiro is honest with us fans....Were not idiots, I heard somebody say attendence was gonna be down, well daaaaaa....& somebody said that, thats why we cant afford the big name players, fans dont support the team so they can afford layers, sorry it ant like that I dont go out & buy junk so thier company I bought it from can one day afford to make the product better, I buy a product becuase I like it & it's a good product, The Indians & thier owner either needs to understand we fans have heard it all and didnt believe it than and we dont believe it now. Save your breath, and dont twist things around to make it look exciting....trading Cliff & even CC last year wasnt an exciting time for us fans.....Drop the act, & lastly were not gonna show up at the ball park to spend our money on a crappy product, and just so you know, bobble heads & fireworks & cheap blankets are not gonna lure us down to the park.....Here is a secrate for ya.....The Indians sold out every game at home for 4-5 years....WHY......The Indians front office put a great product on the field.......year after year, never sitting back always improving...getting better players.....if you dont spend to get good players were not coming.....
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Quote:
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Let me ask you this though. Do you believe you guys were competing this year or next year?
The problem I have is two years ago we were competing and they did nothing to make the team better so now we are back to rebuiliding and more than likley 3 years away from competing if everything goes perfect.
But then what? Dolan hasn't shown that he is willing to get that one peice of the puzzle that we need when we need it. He won't spend. And I defended him the first few years, because he said he would spend when we were in a position to win. But he lied. We were in a position and he did nothing.
So they are dead to me untill they prove they are serious about building a championship caliber team.
Jesus Christ, Mark Shapiro is infallible.
We're going to blame Dolan for not getting the final piece?
The unrealistic goal that many Baseball fans have in this town that Dolan can somehow keep his players is absolute lunacy, especially after Shapiro decided to resign Hafner and Westbrook, which is really the reason you're trading Lee and Victor.
But no, let's blame Larry Dolan instead of Mark Shapiro because he should obviously run his organization at a huge deficet, instead of cutting payroll because the team absolutely SUCKED this year.
No no no, Larry Dolan obviously didn't support the team this year with his $81 Million payroll, or in 2001 when he supported the team with a $90 Million payroll. Nope, he's cheap because he cannot resign players that price themselves in such a range that only the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Mets, and LAA can offer them.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Quote:
Amaro acquired Lee without giving up Drabek, rookie left-hander J.A. Happ, who was 7-1 going into his start at Arizona, or highly touted minor league outfielders Michael Taylor and Dominic Brown. "
How do U not demand and get one of these guys??
Because Mark Shrapnol is weak ...and a FOOL..he's turning out to be Jim Pasxon and Ted Step who managed the Cavs..he's so eager to deal away his talent that he'll SETTLE for whatever a team is willing to dump..they're not even going to miss those players when they get to keep and develop their top players..that's stupid..it's a joke..there's no one who can can remotely reason that the Indians are doing the best thing..
Or because if they were going to trade those guys at all, they would now have Halladay, not Cliff Lee.
Before I respond ...explain that remark.
Tell me why the Indians didn't hold off till the deadline to get a better package?
Why does Mark deal players way before the deadline?
Don't tell me they couldn't have gotten more either from the Phillies or another team..
They SETTLED for less..
I'm going back over to talk Browns..of course things haven't been much better..at least the Indians have had talent and they JUST GIVE IT AWAY.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 07/30/09 11:28 AM.
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LMAO, first I think Mark needs to go as well as Wedge.
1) Mark has been handcuffed since day 1. Dolan has told him to cut pay on the team since he took over that $91 million payroll.
2) I defended that for years because they were rebuilding and DOLAN said he would spend the money when we were ready to compete. Well we were two years ago they didn't make any moves and if you think that Dolan had nothing to do with that then there is no point in arguing with you about it.
3) I will never claim I know everything about any sport but if anyone wants to tell me Larry Dolan is a great owner I will laugh at them. He doesn't care about winning a championship, just a profit. If your OK with that then be prepared to have another streach like we did in the 70's and 80's just to get a streach like we did in the 90's.
Mark is definetly a problem but the root of the problem is Dolan.
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In listening to callers on some of the shows and knowing exactly what they were saying I can say it myself..there's another reason Wedge should go..
Since his time, Mark has traded away players who would clash with Wedge..they were not locker room cancers save one nut case who was shipped to LA..but MS has protected EW from players who he would have issues with..posters who are decerning might understand what I'm implying but when I looked at the roster in 08 it stuck out ..
U can't run a team with quire-boys..
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LMAO, first I think Mark needs to go as well as Wedge.
1) Mark has been handcuffed since day 1. Dolan has told him to cut pay on the team since he took over that $91 million payroll.
2) I defended that for years because they were rebuilding and DOLAN said he would spend the money when we were ready to compete. Well we were two years ago they didn't make any moves and if you think that Dolan had nothing to do with that then there is no point in arguing with you about it.
3) I will never claim I know everything about any sport but if anyone wants to tell me Larry Dolan is a great owner I will laugh at them. He doesn't care about winning a championship, just a profit. If your OK with that then be prepared to have another streach like we did in the 70's and 80's just to get a streach like we did in the 90's.
Mark is definetly a problem but the root of the problem is Dolan.
1) That's because the team had over priced veterans who were declining. Any smart baseball man could see that.
2) All mere speculation. To say that Dolan has to be a reason why they didn't improve is a guess, especially when Shapiro said that he didn't see a problem with the team.
3) Every owner, no matter which one, cares about profit. To run a sports team at a low or no profit and the team being awful is just stupid business. Dolan has never had the chance to have a sustained run of success because his garbage GM cannot give him one. Dolan simply hasn't been given the chance to resign anyone other than Hafner and Westbrook. If we had competed in 2007-Now, I'd put good money on one of CC or Lee being on this team, as it is, neither are because we did not improve the team.
you had a good run Hank.
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What I was getting at was that if the Phillies were going to trade their big three prospects, they would have went with Halladay instead of Lee. I don't put Lee and Halladay at the same level.
Cliff Lee is a 31 year old who has damn near half of his career wins in the last year and a half and who in his "prime years" wasn't able to stay in the majors. Maybe Shap knows something we don't, maybe he is an idiot as you say.
Now to your point on why not wait until the deadline? Got me. I'm with you on that one.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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#gmstrong
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Carrasco has a 6-9 record with a 5.18 era, not a 4.18, just saying.
Find what you love and let it kill you.
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Carrasco has a 6-9 record with a 5.18 era, not a 4.18, just saying.
4.18 Career in the minors.
Oh...and he leads AAA with the most strikeouts.
you had a good run Hank.
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first....there is some insight onto why we didn't go after the Phillies OF prospects....and while I don't think that Victor is worth Buchholz, I certainly like the idea of Kelly....but the Rays have a much deeper pool of pitching prospects in the minors, so I really hope they are involved (also, we could keep cheering for Victor to take out the Yanks and Sox) Quote:
With Cliff Lee now part of the Phillies rotation, sources say they believe All-Star catcher Victor Martinez will almost surely be moved as the Indians build for the future. "If you're going to trade one, you might as well trade the other," one AL executive said.
The Red Sox appear to be the most aggressive pursuer of Martinez, while the Rays have also shown interest. With Padres first baseman Adrian Gonzalez looking fairly unattainable, Martinez makes great sense for Boston, which could use him at first base or to spell Jason Varitek behind the plate.
Baseball people don't believe the Red Sox would trade Clay Buchholz for Martinez, and pitching prospect Casey Kelly may not be offered, either. Junichi Tazawa would seem to be a possibility. The Indians need starting pitchers, so Daniel Bard and Michael Bowden may not be as attractive.
The Red Sox could offer talented outfield prospect Josh Reddick (though an Indians person remarked, "we have outfielders") and/or first baseman Lars Anderson.
The Rays are also deep in pitching prospects, starting with Wade Davis and Jeremy Hellickson.
#gmstrong
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O.k..I get that..how iroic that the manager the Inidans fired now has a WS ring and now has the Indians last Cy Young pitcher..
I still say the Indians do not like to wait for teams to start sweating and add something to the package or have multiple teams competing for one player...
That is something I have not heard explained from the Indians..it's like they're in a hurry to seal the deal and then speak in their pressers it was the best time to do it..
BS..Philly wasn't going to pull out of the deal..
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Cliff Lee is a 31 year old who has damn near half of his career wins in the last year and a half and who in his "prime years" wasn't able to stay in the majors. Maybe Shap knows something we don't, maybe he is an idiot as you say.
Lee has had at least 14 wins in every full year he's spent in the majors except for 2007. Actually, half of his career wins (83) came in 2004-2006, where he had 14, 18, and 14 wins. He'd probably have 3 or 4 more this season if he got run support. And we all know that pitchers in their early 30s never have success.
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I certainly like the idea of Kelly
Kelly is absolutely off limits.
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I like how other teams are coming to us inquiring about our players, and then dictating who they will give up in order to get them.
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I like how other teams are coming to us inquiring about our players, and then dictating who they will give up in order to get them.
What do you want other teams to do? Come in and say... "We want this guy, and we'll give you whoever you want"? 
Sorry, but that's not how trades work. One team calls another team, and says "We're interested in this player. These are the guys who are untouchable, everyone else is available. Any chance of working something out?"
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Yeah, that's exactly what I said, isn't it?
If you're coming to me because you want one of my players (who is one of the best in the league at his position), then I should have some say in who I get. Apparently Shapiro doesn't, because he certainly didn't get just compensation. A guy that's going to give your team at least 20 wins over the rest of this season and all of next =/= injured guys who may have a chance of playing in the bigs 2 years from now.
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He has a say in who he gets. He doesn't HAVE to make the deal. Just because the other team is saying "We aren't giving up these guys" doesn't mean the Indians don't have a say in who they get 
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j/c
Just rambling here....
If the Indians were as close as Shapiro and ownership said they were going into this season, then these trades mean...
Shapiro and FO are admitting they were wayyyyy wrong on ALL talent evaluation. If they say they are not, then they would only have had to re-tool it for next year since they would be saying it was "just one of those years"
so...
This is strickly salary dumping and Dolan is admitting he lied to the fans and is the cheap SOB I said he was on day one of his ownership. Again if the Indians were so close and building for "multiple championship runs", then the Indians only need to re-tool.
so...
Dolan has one of two options. Admit he is a lying cheap SOB by doing nothing with the FO or fire Shapiro for lousy talent evaluation and make him the fall guy.
Wanna bet a buck which one happens? (Larry Dolan do not reply to this as I will not bet you the dollar!)
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Then Shapiro must not have wanted players who will play for the Indians in 2010, because he didn't get any.
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Quote:
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I like how other teams are coming to us inquiring about our players, and then dictating who they will give up in order to get them.
What do you want other teams to do? Come in and say... "We want this guy, and we'll give you whoever you want"?
Sorry, but that's not how trades work. One team calls another team, and says "We're interested in this player. These are the guys who are untouchable, everyone else is available. Any chance of working something out?"
I'd say if you don't give us what we want inexchange go somewhere else.
If I properly evaluated that teams talent and the leftovers are just that..sorry I do better with another team..
See..U want to make it that final..it isn't in a lot of cases.But with the Indians they're content.. with taking whatever the other team is offering.
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I'm not saying you couldn't have gotten more. I was simply responding to the point about other teams inquiring about your players and saying who they'll give up. Well, of course they are going to say, "Here's who we're willing to part with". You didn't have to do the deal.
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SEASON TEAM G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV ERA 2002 Cle 2 2 0 0 10.1 6 2 2 0 8 6 0 1 0 0 -- 1.74 2003 Cle 9 9 0 0 52.1 41 28 21 7 20 44 3 3 0 0 -- 3.61 2004 Cle 33 33 0 0 179.0 188 113 108 30 81 161 14 8 0 0 -- 5.43 2005 Cle 32 32 1 0 202.0 194 91 85 22 52 143 18 5 0 0 -- 3.79 2006 Cle 33 33 1 0 200.2 224 114 98 29 58 129 14 11 0 0 -- 4.40 2007 Cle 20 16 1 0 97.1 112 73 68 17 36 66 5 8 0 0 -- 6.29 2008 Cle 31 31 4 2 223.1 214 68 63 12 34 170 22 3 0 0 -- 2.54 2009 Cle 22 22 3 1 152.0 165 53 53 10 33 107 7 9 0 0 -- 3.14 Total -- 182 178 10 3 1117.0 1144 542 498 127 322 826 83 48 0 0 -- 4.01 ok, your right. 35% of his wins have come in the last year and a half, not the 45% - 50% that I thought. My bad.  So in 5 full pro years, he's had 1 amazing season (2008, 22-3, 2.54 era), 1 very good season (2008, 18-5, 3.79 era), 2 middle of the rotation types (2004, 14-8, 5.43 and 2006, 14-11, 4.40) and the clunker in 07. I don't consider that to be an untradable asset when you have a team going nowhere this year and next with no shot to resign him. So for what ever that's worth...
Last edited by Flap; 07/30/09 12:41 PM.
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I'm not saying you couldn't have gotten more. I was simply responding to the point about other teams inquiring about your players and saying who they'll give up. Well, of course they are going to say, "Here's who we're willing to part with". You didn't have to do the deal.
That's not what I said, at all. I said teams are, from the looks of it, calling and saying "We want Cliff Lee, and we are giving X Y and Z for him."
Look at what happened when they called the Jays about Halliday. They wanted him for X Y and Z, and the Jays wanted A or B instead. The Jays stuck to their guns and didn't let an asset walk for peanuts, and at the end of the day there are other teams that are still trying to get Halliday from the Jays. Shapiro just took what he could get and ran home.
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1) That's because the team had over priced veterans who were declining. Any smart baseball man could see that.
2) All mere speculation. To say that Dolan has to be a reason why they didn't improve is a guess, especially when Shapiro said that he didn't see a problem with the team.
3) Every owner, no matter which one, cares about profit. To run a sports team at a low or no profit and the team being awful is just stupid business. Dolan has never had the chance to have a sustained run of success because his garbage GM cannot give him one. Dolan simply hasn't been given the chance to resign anyone other than Hafner and Westbrook. If we had competed in 2007-Now, I'd put good money on one of CC or Lee being on this team, as it is, neither are because we did not improve the team.
1) what part of "I defended that for years because I know they were rebuilding" did you not understand?
2) Proof is in the pudding! What did you expect, Mark to say yeah there were a few players we could have got but Dolan wouldn't let me spend over my budget?
3) I can name many sports buisinesses that have run at a loss. The UFC for example when Zuffa bought them they ran at a multi-million dollar loss per year for the first 3 years. They now are worth over a billion dollars and have profit margins in the Hundreds of millions. Larry needs to cut into his profits if he wants to make this team better. Other wise you will need to be perfect on drafting and developing players.
Bottom line, who is the person who can fire Shapiro? That's right the owner. I've never said that Mark is blaimless so please stop talking to me like I am. But the buck stops as the top. This is a buisness and the product they are selling is junk. When it's better I'll buy.
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Quote:
SEASON TEAM G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV ERA
2002 Cle 2 2 0 0 10.1 6 2 2 0 8 6 0 1 0 0 -- 1.74
2003 Cle 9 9 0 0 52.1 41 28 21 7 20 44 3 3 0 0 -- 3.61
2004 Cle 33 33 0 0 179.0 188 113 108 30 81 161 14 8 0 0 -- 5.43
2005 Cle 32 32 1 0 202.0 194 91 85 22 52 143 18 5 0 0 -- 3.79
2006 Cle 33 33 1 0 200.2 224 114 98 29 58 129 14 11 0 0 -- 4.40
2007 Cle 20 16 1 0 97.1 112 73 68 17 36 66 5 8 0 0 -- 6.29
2008 Cle 31 31 4 2 223.1 214 68 63 12 34 170 22 3 0 0 -- 2.54
2009 Cle 22 22 3 1 152.0 165 53 53 10 33 107 7 9 0 0 -- 3.14
Total -- 182 178 10 3 1117.0 1144 542 498 127 322 826 83 48 0 0 -- 4.01
ok, your right. 35% of his wins have come in the last year and a half, not the 45% - 50% that I thought. My bad.
So in 5 full pro years, he's had 1 amazing season (2008, 22-3, 2.54 era), 1 very good season (2008, 18-5, 3.79 era), 2 middle of the rotation types (2004, 14-8, 5.43 and 2006, 14-11, 4.40) and the clunker in 07.
I don't consider that to be an untradable asset when you have a team going nowhere this year and next with no shot to resign him.
So for what ever that's worth...
I know I'm right. 35% is not "damn near half". It's roughly a third. But you know that.
You said he had done nothing in his career until the past 18 months. I responded that he had more wins in 2004-2006 than he has in 2007-2009. I never called him an "untradeable asset", but thanks for putting words in my mouth. If you read, you'd see I actually said quite the opposite.
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Report: Manny, Ortiz tested positive July 30, 2009, 12:36 PM ET Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, lawyers with knowledge of the results told The New York Times. The two were key members of the Boston Red Sox World Series teams in 2004 and 2007. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4366335
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Quote:
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1) That's because the team had over priced veterans who were declining. Any smart baseball man could see that.
2) All mere speculation. To say that Dolan has to be a reason why they didn't improve is a guess, especially when Shapiro said that he didn't see a problem with the team.
3) Every owner, no matter which one, cares about profit. To run a sports team at a low or no profit and the team being awful is just stupid business. Dolan has never had the chance to have a sustained run of success because his garbage GM cannot give him one. Dolan simply hasn't been given the chance to resign anyone other than Hafner and Westbrook. If we had competed in 2007-Now, I'd put good money on one of CC or Lee being on this team, as it is, neither are because we did not improve the team.
1) what part of "I defended that for years because I know they were rebuilding" did you not understand?
2) Proof is in the pudding! What did you expect, Mark to say yeah there were a few players we could have got but Dolan wouldn't let me spend over my budget?
3) I can name many sports buisinesses that have run at a loss. The UFC for example when Zuffa bought them they ran at a multi-million dollar loss per year for the first 3 years. They now are worth over a billion dollars and have profit margins in the Hundreds of millions. Larry needs to cut into his profits if he wants to make this team better. Other wise you will need to be perfect on drafting and developing players.
Bottom line, who is the person who can fire Shapiro? That's right the owner. I've never said that Mark is blaimless so please stop talking to me like I am. But the buck stops as the top. This is a buisness and the product they are selling is junk. When it's better I'll buy.
Did I ever, once, say Dolan is completely blameless? The fact that he has allowed Mark Shapiro and Eric Wedge guide this team is a clear indication of poor ownership decisions. HOWEVER, unlike the UFC, the Indians do not have a rabid fanbase, a group of players that appeals to the mainstream media, and a complete monopoly of television across, basically, the World.
The Indians are blessed with a poor fanbase, the media is turning on them, and are surrounded by either easy to watch distant teams *Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs* or teams that are close and doing better than them *Tigers*. To suggest that the Indians need to run at a huge financial loss, one that would, this year, likely cost them over 10 million on a crap product, is stupid. No need to run at a deficit for a poor team unless you are still drawing fans, which the Indians were not in the first place..
you had a good run Hank.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Report: Manny, Ortiz tested positive
July 30, 2009, 12:36 PM ET
Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, lawyers with knowledge of the results told The New York Times.
The two were key members of the Boston Red Sox World Series teams in 2004 and 2007.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4366335
Also...this just in....
Water is wet 
http://www.why-is-the-sky-blue.tv/why-is-water-wet.htm
"My signature line goes here."
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Posts: 2,065 |
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Your owner and GM stressed it would take pitching to win..they said they wanted titles..so why are they trading their best pitchers AWAY Nas????
Where the hell is this team going? With or without Lee?
I mean, seriously...some of you are acting like we're a half game out of 1st place right now and we just traded out best pitcher. WE'RE DAMN NEAR 20 GAMES UNDER .500 in baseball's WEAKEST division. Keeping one pitcher, especially one that's going to be gone in 14 months, does absolutely NOTHING for the future of this franchise. How is that so hard to understand?!?!
As for the trade...where exactly was our leverage in trying to pry prospects away from Philadelphia? That they weren't going to part with for Roy Halladay? Halladay has TWICE the track record Lee does and the Phillies weren't ponying up Drabek for him. Halladay has better stuff then Lee, a career ERA that's a half run better and about 60 career wins more than Cliff. If they weren't willing to give up those guys for Halladay how can you expect them to give them up for Lee?! Should Shapiro have sprinkled some magic ferry dust around and done a river dance?
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
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Quote:
Quote:
Report: Manny, Ortiz tested positive
July 30, 2009, 12:36 PM ET
Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, lawyers with knowledge of the results told The New York Times.
The two were key members of the Boston Red Sox World Series teams in 2004 and 2007.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4366335
Also...this just in....
Water is wet
http://www.why-is-the-sky-blue.tv/why-is-water-wet.htm
Holy crap! 
Why am I just now being told about this earth shattering news? 
I mean before you know it there will be news that Diam is in love with Brady Quinn and GM is old and produces farts more powerful then the hiroshima bomb!
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Did I ever, once, say Dolan is completely blameless?
You attacked me for blaming Dolan and proceded to ramble on about Mark for two posts, ( and I never said Mark was blameless but you acted like I had).
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HOWEVER, unlike the UFC, the Indians do not have a rabid fanbase, a group of players that appeals to the mainstream media, and a complete monopoly of television across, basically, the World.
The Indians are blessed with a poor fanbase, the media is turning on them, and are surrounded by either easy to watch distant teams *Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs* or teams that are close and doing better than them *Tigers*. To suggest that the Indians need to run at a huge financial loss, one that would, this year, likely cost them over 10 million on a crap product, is stupid. No need to run at a deficit for a poor team unless you are still drawing fans, which the Indians were not in the first place..
The Indians don't have a rabid fan base?? Are you kidding me? Were you even here in the 1990's??? And I'm not talking about now, today saying Dolan should go out and add $40 million to the payroll. My issue is a few years back when we were on the verge of winning a WS we did nothing. And for someone to say that was all Mark Shapiro's fault and that he truley believed that the team was fine is rediculous. If the team was fine we would have beaten Boston. Mark isn't stupid and he knew that but the talent that would of made a real difference was out of his price range.
If the Indians are winning the tickets sell. If they had spent the money a few years ago we wouldn't be in the situation today. I understand what they had to do today. But it was thier mistakes, Mark's and Dolan's from two years ago that is forcing us back to rebuilding. I accepted that in 2001 but I don't today.
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OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Report: Manny, Ortiz tested positive
July 30, 2009, 12:36 PM ET
Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, lawyers with knowledge of the results told The New York Times.
The two were key members of the Boston Red Sox World Series teams in 2004 and 2007.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4366335
Who didn't see that coming? lol.
Seriously, there isn't a clean power hitter in the game. Not even the golden boy Pujols.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
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If the Indians are winning the tickets sell.
Wrong. Indians attendance in 2007 was 21st in the MLB averaging 28K a game.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2007
In 2005, when the Indians were in the race for a playoff spot, they were 24th, averaging 24K a game.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2005
The Indians "fans" don't even show up when they are winning. Most of those "fans" have gone over to the Cavaliers, because they are the new hot ticket in town, not the Indians.
The 90's proved nothing, other than the fact that that the Indians can be successful in drawing fans if the Browns don't exist and the Cavaliers completely suck.
you had a good run Hank.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
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THIS is reason to stop watching baseball. The Red Sox cheated and bought their titles. ....though I'd probably not care if the Indians were the ones winning.  Oh well.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
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Where the hell is this team going? With or without Lee?
I mean, seriously...some of you are acting like we're a half game out of 1st place right now and we just traded out best pitcher. WE'RE DAMN NEAR 20 GAMES UNDER .500 in baseball's WEAKEST division.
As for the trade...where exactly was our leverage in trying to pry prospects away from Philadelphia? That they weren't going to part with for Roy Halladay? Halladay has TWICE the track record Lee does and the Phillies weren't ponying up Drabek for him. Halladay has better stuff then Lee, a career ERA that's a half run better and about 60 career wins more than Cliff. If they weren't willing to give up those guys for Halladay how can you expect them to give them up for Lee?! Should Shapiro have sprinkled some magic ferry dust around and done a river dance?
This is true, but this trade doesn't smell right like last years CC trade. Lee is still there for next year and Phillies prospects will have another year to evaluate. This is Philly's "second tier" group of tradable players and not the Halladay trade names. Also Shapiro spouted he still expects the team to have a chance in this division next year! If this is believeable, why get rid of the Cy Young you still have next year? How can he sell that BS?
The wrong guys own the Browns and Indians. They need to swap teams. Dolan would have the salary cap to save his cheap butt and Lerner would probably spend a couple of bucks on the Indians like he does ex-coaches.
I will never forget Dolan saying the fans had to come out first before he would spend. He's saying that as a fan, it will be your fault if they suck. Could you imagine any business owner saying "Buy my cheap and inferior product, then I'll be able to make it better because I will not take a business risk and invest in making a good product now."
"My signature line goes here."
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