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Something that's been on my mind for a few weeks now because of the debate over healthcare..
Those that oppose heathcare reform (at least as it's proposed by certain folks) have started a campaign to bring to light those faults that they perceive.
Those that are proponents of the plan are fighting back saying that opponents are not being honest about thier concerns and that it's all about the insurance companies.. and of course, they are making plenty of claims as well.
that's just one fight that's current. In the past we've had the question of legalized gambling in Ohio. One side gives the people one view of it, the opposition give them an entirely different view.. and if they were just views, then no problem.. But they got vicious with thier attack ads (both sides) and things were said that have since been proven to be false,,, in fact, some have been flat out lies. (again, on both sides)
So, My question is this:
Should there be legal penalties for those that flat out lie about thier position on an issue in an effort to misinform the public? In otherwords,, if they are found to run ads that are not JUST misleading, but are flat out lies in an effort to garner support or diminish support for something should they face legal action.
I mean, right now, if a manufacturor makes a claim about a product that is found to be untrue, they are forced to stop those ads, they are sometimes penalized.
Can we do the same with those that run ads with untrue information or even misleading information.
I don't want this to turn into a debate about healthcare or gambling.. that's not my question.. Those things are being debated quite well in other threads..
And I'm not at all taking sides on either issue with this question..
See, my motives are simple I think. I have an elderly mom.. many of us do. And she is easily swayed by folks that try to scare her and mislead her.
She doesn't have the resources that many of us have to do research on subjects and at least attempt to make an informed decision.
So, what say you.. should they be held accountable for thier actions or not?
Should we tolerate Misleading ads?
Oh, and I'm not talking about just various entities that are formed to fight for or against a cause, I'm talking about politicians as well.. all the way to the top dog... The president.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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if Coca Cola has an ad that says that Pepsi contains carcinogens....they are liable and will be sued.
I don't see why these organizations aren't held accountable in the same way....however, the problem you would have is that the organization would just go bankrupt and the same people would start a "new" one. So, it'd be tough to enforce, but we should at least try (or possibly take it a step further and hold the TV netowrkds somewhat responsible for the content, which will force them to not air such materials...though I think that takes it a step too far)
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Regarding healthcare or anything else I believe it is far easier to attack change rather than to defend change. Which in my view is good because I think it is the overwhelming responsibility for those proposing new action by the government to communicate their plan and its perceived effectiveness. In regards to healthcare which I personally see more as insurance reform rather than healthcare reform, I've looked at the House and Senate bills and do find much of the criticism to be groundless dribble. But with that being said, to me Obama hasn't been any more or less convincing than what George W Bush was to me concerning the Iraq War.
Let's face it, everybody is going to see and tell the truth from their own angle. Whether it be politicians, left-or-right wing media, the all-knowing Hollywood movie stars, or posters here. I am strongly pro-consumer when it comes to truth in advertising for products and services - a stance I see as regulatory and thus leaning Democratic politically. When it comes to political proposals, as far as truth in advertising goes, I lean towards the Republican pro-business view of it simply being a matter that us buyers must beware.
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No Logo, that was kinda my thinking as well.. if we enforce it for business, why can't we enforce it in other arenas.
And yeah, Special Interest groups would just disappear and rear up thier heads as something else later.
But Politicians wouldn't be able to do that. They would have to stand there and take the heat..., SERIOUS HEAT for lying.. with financial consequences perhaps..
I think that I'm more tired of all the bickering than anything.. if each side were forced by law to be truthful, as businesses are forced to do (when the law is applied that is) then the world, or at least this country, might just be a better place.. dunno
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Reckon,, you did exactlly what I asked not be done.. you turned this into a debate on Healthcare..
That's just a symptom of a greater issue in my view..
Forget healthcare,, forget gambling.. forget any individual issue..
Do you think that folks should be held accountable when they purposely lie and mislead the public?
That means businesses, special interest groups, politicians or other individuals charged with and/or paid for serving the public.
That's the only question I was asking...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
So, My question is this:
Should there be legal penalties for those that flat out lie about thier position on an issue in an effort to misinform the public? In otherwords,, if they are found to run ads that are not JUST misleading, but are flat out lies in an effort to garner support or diminish support for something should they face legal action.
Yes.
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Oh, and I'm not talking about just various entities that are formed to fight for or against a cause, I'm talking about politicians as well.. all the way to the top dog... The president.
Especially him, yes. Of course, he's already lied to the people, so he's got a lot to pay for.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Especially him, yes. Of course, he's already lied to the people, so he's got a lot to pay for.
sigh,,,,,,,, I think so as well Michelle,, but I just didn't want to start a thread that got dragged into the crap....
Thanks for responding however....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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You know how it is around here, Daman...people will throw comments out no matter how nicely and how many times you ask them not to. I answered your question and added that he would already be in trouble if held liable for lies. It was related. Really, most advertisers would be in trouble. Just look at pictures of fast food sandwiches then go buy one (specifically Arby's). You'll see what I mean.  Perhaps a poll would be a better choice for those of us asking specific questions. I know it's happened to my threads in the past...things always take a turn I wish they wouldn't have taken. I've grown to expect it around here. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
Do you think that folks should be held accountable when they purposely lie and mislead the public?
I answered "yes" to such a restriction to freedom of speech when in regards to products and services and "no" regarding politics. To be clear, that "no" to also includes statements being made pertaining religious and scientific beliefs.
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Yeah, you are probably right on both counts Michelle,,,,,, again, thanks for responding....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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politicians are at least supposed to be a service though.
they even call themselves civil servants.
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Quote:
I answered "yes" to such a restriction to freedom of speech when in regards to products and services and "no" regarding politics. To be clear, that "no" to also includes statements being made pertaining religious and scientific beliefs.
Ok, I'm not going to pretend I have a grasp of what you just said,, Not sure at all how science and religion came into play. So I'll point blank ask you..
Do you feel Special Interest Groups and Politicians should be held accountable for Misleading statements or lies?
Again, go back to my original post and think about my mom and others in her age bracket (83) and how quite often, they are mislead in order to get thier vote for or against something.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Yes I think they should be held accountable. But I also don't think it should stop with truth and lying. It should extend to more wrong doings.
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Quote:
Ok, I'm not going to pretend I have a grasp of what you just said,, Not sure at all how science and religion came into play. So I'll point blank ask you..
Do you feel Special Interest Groups and Politicians should be held accountable for Misleading statements or lies?
Again, go back to my original post and think about my mom and others in her age bracket (83) and how quite often, they are mislead in order to get thier vote for or against something.
And for the 3rd time my answer is "No". I hate to get specific but the most visible such claim lately that I recall is that of the liberals chanting, "Bush lied, thousands died". There are reports of Bush passing along claims as the truth in his State of the Union message prior to the war, stuff he was told beforehand could not be confirmed. Did he lie to make his point stronger? While any politicial claiming ignorance sure isn't going to get an argument for me, for those answering "yes" that he should be held accountable, I'd sure like to know who they would have act as judge and jury?
In my mind I did relate the question to your mom. It is easily to do so when I think of the issue of climate change in which I have no merit to make a scientific judgement and must rely on others. I don't believe I need to hold a personal position on this matter and neither do I know who I'd trust in protecting me from my ignorance?
I see any notion in limiting freedom of speech as taking Political Correctness to its zenith.
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And for the 3rd time my answer
Well gees, if you would have made yourself clear the first two times, I woudn't keep asking  Just pulling your leg man..
I get your drift now.. Not sure I agree, but what I think isn't really all that important in the grand scheme of things.
Point is, I'm just tired of all the stupid bickering between the left, center and right. If they keep that up, they will NOT accomplish much of what we send them to washington to accomplish.
Talk about a waste of money..
It's time they figured out that there is a job to do and the only way it works is if they put thier own agendas aside, step away from the special interest groups and the lobbyists, roll up thier sleeves and get to work...TOGETHER.
No, I don't think it will happen... but it's what should happen...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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We should hold them accountable at the polls, but I doubt there is much you can do legally... for a couple reasons.
First being that if you want to sue somebody for lying, you have to prove that you were "harmed" in some way....
Which leads to the second in that most of these political lies are speculation... "If we pass healthcare people will have to wait 9 years to see a doctor." Will they? That's just speculation. "If we pass healthcare taxes won't have to go up." Will they? Again, somebody's speculation....
Then you would have to prove that it was the lie that caused the outcome.... If I lie to get the healthcare bill defeated (or passed) and am successful, then you have to show that my lie was the reason it failed (or passed).. then you still have to show how you were harmed...
If you start trying to impose these kinds of penalties for "lying" in a political debate, it's a very small step from there to stifling opinions.. since those opinions could possibly be wrong and then be construed as a lie....
yebat' Putin
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So you’re saying…. With everyone clamoring these last few years about lies… He, She, Right, Left, Center or whatever… Most never really lied… They just speculated and were wrong!!!
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So you’re saying…. With everyone clamoring these last few years about lies… He, She, Right, Left, Center or whatever… Most never really lied… They just speculated and were wrong!!!
Something like that. First you have to prove they were wrong... then you have to prove they KNEW they were going to be wrong. Lying involves intent
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
We should hold them accountable at the polls, but I doubt there is much you can do legally... for a couple reasons.
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I don't agree,, I think there is a way to do it. You make a law, they break the law, they are accused, they go to trial and if they get convicted.. simple.. they go to jail. The problem with that is, I doubt anyone in public office has the stones to write such a law and work to get it passed. He or She would get run out of town on a rail..
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First being that if you want to sue somebody for lying, you have to prove that you were "harmed" in some way....
DC, I don't want to be difficult,, but again, if you are the employer and your employee lies to you or misleads you and it costs you in some fashion, that's HARM...
Now, take employer/employee out of the equation, substitute "elected Official" and "Citizen" in thier places, all of a sudden you have the possisibiliy to do great harm. Let's look at a few possibilities,, A lie could cause the nation to engage in war causing great lossof life... a lie could cause the nation to go so far into debt that it may make it impossible to pull back from the brink.
I am not sure what you would call that, but I call that harm.
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Then you would have to prove that it was the lie that caused the outcome
I'm avoiding the healthcare part of your comment.. I wanna try to keep issues out of this as much as possible. (as if that's possible)
But to this comment, yeah, it has to be proven,, no doubt.. That's why we have lawyers, investigators, courts, judges and juries. Use them to determine guilt or innocence.
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If you start trying to impose these kinds of penalties for "lying" in a political debate, it's a very small step from there to stifling opinions.. since those opinions could possibly be wrong and then be construed as a lie....
Sorry man,, but I don't find it acceptable to let a politician, special interest group, media midget or lobbyest lie or mislead the public and get away with it, for the very reasons I've stated above.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Most political statements, ads, campaigns, and the like are very, very carefully worded and nuanced so as to avoid any legal action.
If person A wants universal, single payer insurance .. for example ..... but knows that many others do not, he can easily say that his plan is not, and is never intended to be single payer ..... despite the fact that the way a plan is set up may ultimaely destroy any other insurance companies chances of competing. He could easily say "My plan is not intended to be single payer ... and if fact, if you look at projections made by (insert quoted source) insurance companies may even have a greater cash flow and client base over the next decade or 2 as more people begin to enter the system ......."
It's like saying "We're only going to raise taxes on the rich ....." and then watching every other tax not strictly based on income rise as well ......
There is always an "out" somewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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There is always an "out" somewhere.
Again, that's why we have courts.. I'm no legal beagle,, I would never suggest I know the ins and outs of legal manuvering..
I'm just saying,, if you make a law, make people abide by it. if they don't, then they have to pay the price..
Your example, while valid, isn't a good reason not to try and make a change in how things are handled.. your example can be applied to any existing law.. murder,robbery, drug possession, drug trafficing, etc etc..
So just because it isn't easy or a slam dunk, doesn't mean it's right or should be accepted..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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It's like saying "We're only going to raise taxes on the rich ....." and then watching every other tax not strictly based on income rise as well ......
There is always an "out" somewhere.
Reminds me of Governor Jim Rhodes election back in 1980 just before I left Ohio. He ran on a "No new taxes" platform and once in office he immediately increased state fees left and right. People were ticked and his reaction when questioned by media was: "I said no new taxes, I didn't say a word about the old ones."
What you say is oh so true. 
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People were ticked and his reaction when questioned by media was: "I said no new taxes, I didn't say a word about the old ones."
Ahh, but under my plan, lying and MISLEADING the public are considered the same thing and both punishable if the culprit is found guilty by a jury of thier peers..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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And what we're saying (or at least I am) is that you would clog up an already overburdened court system for decades trying to prove "lies".. trying to prove "harm"..
There is a reason very very few celebrities ever sue a tabloid for lying or defamation... because it's very hard to prove, very hard to quantify damages, very hard to recover them even if you do win...
And I'm sorry, but I still feel that in the end, this would be a mechanism to stifly opinions... If I'm a politician and I think the single payer healthcare system is going to cost us $100 trillion dollars by 2013.. I really believe this based on the best research available... am I going to go on the record as having said it? What if it passes and ends up costing $25 trillion? Was I just wrong or was I lying to try to get it defeated? You seem to put 100% faith in lawyers, judges and juries to figure out what I was THINKING at the time I said it... sorry, I don't have that much faith.
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Ahh, but under my plan, lying and MISLEADING the public are considered the same thing and both punishable if the culprit is found guilty by a jury of thier peers..
It is my personal belief that your plan's limitation of free speech is far more dangerous than trying to protect folks from having to think for themselves. One prime concern is that those with power will determine for all of us what the truth is and it presents me images of the Nazi's book burning.
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It is my personal belief that your plan's limitation of free speech is far more dangerous than trying to protect folks from having to think for themselves.
So,, you think it's ok to mislead the elderly? You would rather have elderly folks be mislead just to protect free speech?
first of all, let's get something straight,, there is NO SUCH thing as free speech,, it's been paid for with the blood of our soldiers.. hell of a price.
So I'm not willing to give up the right to speak your mind.. THAT IS NOT what I'm referring too.
I'm referring to folks that will purposly mislead people in order to obtain a vote for or against something..
To me, that's a hell of a lot different
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
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It is my personal belief that your plan's limitation of free speech is far more dangerous than trying to protect folks from having to think for themselves.
So,, you think it's ok to mislead the elderly?
Not sure where you get that he said that. Could you point out where he said misleading the elderly is ok?Quote:
You would rather have elderly folks be mislead just to protect free speech?
Again, he never said that. And why are you only concerned with the elderly? Heck, I know young people that get mislead, people my age, people in their 50's, 60's, etc.
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first of all, let's get something straight,, there is NO SUCH thing as free speech,, it's been paid for with the blood of our soldiers.. hell of a price.
Correct. We all know that. That plays a part in this discussion how? Those soldiers died for everyone to have the right to free speech, not just free speech that you agree with.
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So I'm not willing to give up the right to speak your mind.. THAT IS NOT what I'm referring too.
I'm referring to folks that will purposly mislead people in order to obtain a vote for or against something..
Oh, so you're talking about O and congress. Not the elderly - other than the elderly congressmen. Got it.Quote:
To me, that's a hell of a lot different
Really, it's not. Free speech is free speech. Sorry about you knowing people that get lead into false beliefs. I know many as well. Not just the elderly.
Where do you draw the line? Don't even bother replying to that, as there is no way to draw the line.
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The basis of my belief are that:
(1) what some may contend as truths, others may take as lies
(2) to make judgement is an individual's civic responsibility
(3) limiting freedom of speech in desire to protect us is going down a dangerous path
(4) be very cautious of those using society's weakest to justify the need for increased government control over the individual
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Democrats have campaigned to the senior populace for decades on a platform of "The Republicans are going to take your Medicare and Social Security away".
No one said a word about that.
Ngative advertising ... negative campaigning have been around for a very long time ..... and will be for a very long time to come because of one simple fact ...... it works. The fear of loss is stronger than the hope of gain.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Arch, Reckon and Ytown,.,,,
Folks,, read this carefully,,,
I'm NOT in favor of limiting anyones right to speak freely
I'm NOT in favor of Hindering or limiting opinions
I'm NOT in favor of prosecuting those that have opposing views
I'm NOT in favor of attacking either party
But if,,, and ONLY if, it's determined that an out and out lie or misleading activity took place, those that did it, should be held responsible.. What's that mean exactly? not sure,, Maybe a reprimand, maybe a fine, maybe jail time... I don't know. I'll leave that to a judge and jury.
I'm not worried about myself,, I have the ability to find information. Even with that, I can be fooled as easily as anyone,,, just not for very long..
I'm more concerned about our senior citizens. (just a note, I probably wouldn't be so concerned about them if my own mom wasn't being mislead so often lately, you would not believe some of the stuff her friends tell her)
All in all, make no mistake,, I understand the cost of freedom of speech and in no way do I want to diminsh those that fought for it.
But some folks, and you all know who they are, think it's perfectly ok to use freedom of speech to lie to us or mislead us.. Those are the folks I'd like to see pay for what I consider a crime.
And I'll let a court of law decide that.. I'm not qualified..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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"Free speech" as intended by Our Founders, was probably not created to defend the "rights" of the mis-leaders.
I'll rely on judges to make to the right call. The elderly should be protected--as should children--and if my rights are "violated" along the way, then so be it. I would certainly rather have my background checked in order to make sure I was a good candidate to be a substitute teacher, rather than hear another horror story about a pervert molesting a middle schooler, if that makes sense.
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"Free speech" as intended by Our Founders, was probably not created to defend the "rights" of the mis-leaders.
Agreed!
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I'll rely on judges to make to the right call.
As will I...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm NOT in favor of limiting anyones right to speak freely
I'm NOT in favor of Hindering or limiting opinions
I'm NOT in favor of prosecuting those that have opposing views
I'm NOT in favor of attacking either party
I'll take you at your word that the above is true... but I see your plan as having the possibility of heading down some, or all, of those roads.
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But if,,, and ONLY if, it's determined that an out and out lie or misleading activity took place, those that did it, should be held responsible.. What's that mean exactly? not sure,, Maybe a reprimand, maybe a fine, maybe jail time... I don't know. I'll leave that to a judge and jury.
The vehicle to do that already exists... the person or group that is harmed by the lie can bring civil suit against the person promoting the lie... but as I've said several times, it's so difficult to prove that very few people attempt it.
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I'm not worried about myself,, I have the ability to find information. Even with that, I can be fooled as easily as anyone,,, just not for very long..
I'm more concerned about our senior citizens. (just a note, I probably wouldn't be so concerned about them if my own mom wasn't being mislead so often lately, you would not believe some of the stuff her friends tell her)
Daman, with all due respect, this is the very heart of how liberals move their agenda... it's the "I'm fine, but we need to protect THOSE OTHER PEOPLE" mentality... I still have a job but others don't so we need to protect them.... I can raise my kids but we need to protect those that can't.... I have healthcare but others don't so we need to protect them.... It's like when the economy dipped under Bush in, 2003 and 04 I believe... polls showed that the vast majority of people were doing fine financially but because of the scare in the media they all felt the economy was going down and they all felt the government needed to do something to help THE OTHER PEOPLE... when in fact, there weren't very many of those other people....
and you said this in a different post...
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just to protect free speech?
This is an extremely dangerous phrase....
yebat' Putin
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but I see your plan as having the possibility of heading down some, or all, of those roads.
I don't see how making people and organizations responsible for what they say is taking away from free speech... If you say it and it's a lie, you are responsible.. period. I never said they couldn't say it,, anyone can say what they like.. But I ask that they be held responsible... what's so terrible about that..
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The vehicle to do that already exists... the person or group that is harmed by the lie can bring civil suit against the person promoting the lie... but as I've said several times, it's so difficult to prove that very few people attempt it.
What I'm talking about is something with more teeth in it. Something specifically designed for politicians, parties, lobbyests, PAC's etc etc..
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Daman, with all due respect, this is the very heart of how liberals move their agenda... it's the "I'm fine, but we need to protect THOSE OTHER PEOPLE" mentality...
That is the principle by which our armed services work.. They protect us,,, you and me,,, the defend our way of life.. Please don't tell me that we shouldn't do the same for others in our country..
Remember something DC,, many of those elderly folks I'm speaking of were in the military,,, they defended us,, don't you at least feel we owe them something..
I don't buy in to this sounding even a little like liberal moving an agenda.. I'm talking about stopping people from purposely misleading other people and getting away with it..
Again, I could sit here and site several examples,, but like I said in the beginning, I don't want to turn this into a thread about a particular issue, but more of an overall view or perspective of my concerns..
Tell you one other thing DC,, if caring for and protecting older folks makes me a liberal,,, then count me in.. cause I'm gonna do it every chance I get...
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This is an extremely dangerous phrase....
Only if you are worried that you can't say what you want! It's not at all dangerous,, not even a little. not the way I used it.
I believe the context was,,,,, are you willing to allow people to lie and mislead the american people "just to protect free speech"?
The answer to that,,, is no... we aren't. That's why we have those laws you touched upon.. I'm not suggesting anything different, other than they should be pointed at those in the public sector,, or those that back those in the public sector.
IT's time we americans took back our country.... Does that sound liberal to you?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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in principle, as can be seen from my first posts, I agree with you.
however, in practice...I think what you would find is that such a law would end up putting nearly everything into the courts.
one side doesn't like what the other side said in an ad....throw them in court and say it was a lie....make them "prove" it was not a lie.
I like the idea and it should be there for the most obvious of cases where they are blatantly lieing....but it's impossible to be all-inclusive as there is a lot of gray area in what is said. if you mkae the courts determine the gray area, then you are talking about a ton more lawsuits all the time and this country has too many of those as it is.
#gmstrong
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Tell you one other thing DC,, if caring for and protecting older folks makes me a liberal,,, then count me in.. cause I'm gonna do it every chance I get...
Fine, then take them food, give them a ride to the doctor, if somebody tries to swindle their retirement they should go to jail.... I agree with all of that kind of care... but if a political pac lies to them about the possible consequences of a bill?... I don't think so.
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IT's time we americans took back our country.... Does that sound liberal to you?
Taking away somebodys right to speak, even if it is misleading, ... and giving the power to decide who is telling the truth, who is not, and who is offering an opinion (and then jailing those deemed to be lying) to lawyers and judges is taking back our country?
You are taking those people from whom you want to take back the country (the government and special interests), and placing the ability to discern truth from lie from opinion and giving them disciplinary powers to rule over what we say... and more importantly, what we were thinking when we said it.
yebat' Putin
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however, in practice...I think what you would find is that such a law would end up putting nearly everything into the courts.
Or, it would scare people into telling the truth or shutting up... either way, I'm good with that result.
Hey look, people make mistakes, they mispeak,, you have to allow for that. but after a point, when it's clear they over reached,, yet continue to spout the same dribble, it's no longer a mistake, it becomes misleading or a lie..
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one side doesn't like what the other side said in an ad....throw them in court and say it was a lie....make them "prove" it was not a lie.
That's exactly the way our system is now,, the difference is, we need to point it towards our leaders.
My hope would be that in time, only those that truly want to serve the public would bother to run for public office. Those that are looking for a free ride (or at least a damn cheap one) would decline to serve.. Eventully, we'd have good, honest public officials.. The scoundrels would disappear because they wouldn't be allowed to manipulate the system to thier advantage by misleading folks..
All of this is JMO,, in the grand scheme of things,, I"m damn well aware it will never come to pass. Our lawmakers would never pass such a law.. I doubt there is one person among them that even has the stones to introduce it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The scoundrels would disappear because they wouldn't be allowed to manipulate the system to thier advantage by misleading folks..
There in lies the problem... I don't think that would be the result... I believe the result would be an increase on the burden to our courts and the ones that would succeed would be the most cunning manipulators, not the most honest.
Wanting a more honest and transparent system is a noble pursuit Daman... I just don't think this is the way to get one.
yebat' Putin
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There in lies the problem... I don't think that would be the result... I believe the result would be an increase on the burden to our courts and the ones that would succeed would be the most cunning manipulators, not the most honest.
Over burdening our courts isn't even close to a good reason not to go after those that mislead and lie to the public.. I mean,, you would never say we shouldn't go after purps when they steal from people,, Never.
Let's look at Fraud... a crime.. as defined below, you can see that what some of these politicians are doing fits into some of the description quite nicely.
FRAUD
Synonyms;
swindle
victimization
charlatan
faker
humbug
impostor
mountebank (don't ask, I don't know)
As Defined:
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.
Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Fraud
Now tell me, what's the difference between a fraudulent act such as what Bernie Madoff perpatrated or one that a politician might commit in advancing an idea that is being bought and paid for by Special Interest Groups or a Lobby....
Madoff will spend the rest of his days in jail,, his wife will end up with virtually nothing after all legal action that's beginning now.
Yet, at this point in time, a PAC, or Lobbyist can spend millions of dollars getting out a message that is self serving and has only a little truth to it....
In short, misleading folks... oddly enough, not all that much differently than Madoff did..
he goes to jail, the lobbyist is free to do it again and again.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't try to tell me that we can't go after all the swindlers out there just because the courts would be overburdened would ya?
You would never stand for letting a bernie madoff get away,,, why would you argue with getting a politician who basically commits the same crime?
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Wanting a more honest and transparent system is a noble pursuit Daman... I just don't think this is the way to get one
Founding this great country could have been described the same way,,, a noble pursuit... Someone thought it was worth it... I agree..
But that doesn't mean you don't try..
I've been saying all along, My system or Idea will NEVER get put into place. not because it can't be done, but because no politicion has the stones to back it..
It wouldn't be easy,,, it may well be the toughest thing ever, but only those in the lobby or special interest groups, PAC's and politicians would think of fighting it.. why,, because it would put them out of business.
And when the come up with a new way, we adapt the law again and stop them again.
I know you don't seem to believe my way is the right way to accomplish this.. ok,, I'm listening.. got any better ideas... I'm all ears.. Lay it out for me.... 
Unless or until it gets addressed, it will continue.. it's a fraud against all americans.. I really can't believe anyone would argue that it needs stopped...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm talking about politicians as well.. all the way to the top dog... The president.
So you're essentially advocating indicting every politician in D.C.?
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