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CLEVELAND -- Cleveland Indians owner Paul Dolan projects the team will lose $16 million this season and says the recent trades of Cy Young winner Cliff Lee and All-Star catcher Victor Martinez were necessary long-term moves. Dolan estimates the team will draw about 1.7 million fans this season, more than 500,000 less than the team expected before Opening Day. The Indians, who came within one win of the World Series in 2007, expected to contend this season but went into Thursday's game at 45-62 and in fourth place in the AL Central. The trades of Lee and Martinez have led to a backlash from Indians fans. Dolan also said ownership will have input into whether manager Eric Wedge returns next season. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4381129
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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It's their fault for putting out such a crappy product...
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Legend
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I think they underestimated how much people could eat in the All You Can Eat Seats....
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Quote:
It's their fault for putting out such a crappy product...
If the product is so crappy, why are you so upset when those crappy pieces are being traded? 
Outside of CC and Blake, this is essentially the same team from 2007 (or similar enough to consider them the same team).
And many people expected the Indians to play a lot better this year and last year. However, our play in April, May, and June of 08 and 09 was awful.
IMO, the team was built to win. The players didn't come through. Sure, we can argue about specific transactions.....but this team should have done a lot better the past two years.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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You add a team playing poorly and an economy causing people to tighten their wallets, and you have a recipe for low attendance to some 80+ home games.
A day at the ballpark isn't cheap. It isn't football expensive, but there's only 8 of those a season. Then you add many games are during the workday, and people can't risk or afford taking a day off like they could a couple years ago.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Broken system............predictable result.
The fans can get as mad as they want, but until they focus their energies in the right direction, they aren't doing anything constructive.
The sad part is that it'd take a concerted effort by ALL the fans to effect change in baseball, but since so many fans live in fat-market areas, those fans aren't the least bit interested in parity.
So we're screwed.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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everything changed the day shapiro was forced to trade bartolo colon.
sure, bart wasn't a fan favorite, but i think they sent the message then, that nobody is staying long term around here. and that didn't sit well with tribe fans.
couple that with the arrival of lbj, the economy, and fans continued blind love for the browns, and you have what you have.
i honestly don't care what they lost. if they can't afford to take a loss in that business, then perhaps they shouldn't have made a bid for the tribe.
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Legend
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Quote:
Broken system............predictable result.
The fans can get as mad as they want, but until they focus their energies in the right direction, they aren't doing anything constructive.
The sad part is that it'd take a concerted effort by ALL the fans to effect change in baseball, but since so many fans live in fat-market areas, those fans aren't the least bit interested in parity.
So we're screwed.
i think i actually brought this point up before. but isn't it funny that all the talking heads at bspn whine and moan about how unfair the bcs is, but yet you never hear about how unfair baseball is?
funny how that works. probably because all the fat market teams being good is better for them.
we are screwed. there will never be change in baseball in our lifetime. we'll have to shoot for a once in 10 years shot while the big cities will contend every year.
when does the nfl start again?
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For years I've looked at sports ownership as a toy or a hobby. Sure a guy should expect to operate and make money...but ultimately it's a uber rich mans game and losing some bucks to win sometimes is part of the game.
Dan Gilbert has said a thousand times he knows he has to spend money to make money.
Small market or not, this city supports a winner and Dan Gilbert and Dick Jacobs have proven that.
I don't think the Dolans have the cash or the stomach to own a team.
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The Dolans had no business buying this team. This is a business and this is also a sport.
- Let's talk business here. Take Home Depot for example. Home Depot practices good business when they let me buy a product and also let me return the product if I don't feel it's worth the money I paid for it, or if it is deficient. - Good business, and it keeps me coming back.
On the other hand, take a look at how the Dolans do business. Last December, I gave Larry Dolan a good amount of money when I purchased my wife and I a set of Indians tickets for a game that is to be played in September. Granted, when I bought the tickets, I was buying them because I expected to watch some good major league talent - namely Cliff Lee and/or Victor Martinez. I fully understood that when I gave Larry Dolan my money for these tickets that there was a chance that Cliff Lee may not pitch this game, or Victor Martinez may be injured, etc. But I figured that days off and injuries are part of the game and I took my chances. I did business with Larry Dolan and bought a couple tickets.
Here we are in August and my wife and I have zero percent chance of watching Cliff Lee or Victor Martinez play in September. Unlike Home Depot, mind you, Larry Dolan won't give me my money back, nor will he let me trade my tickets for any sort of Indians team shop credit. All he does is sits back, and counts the millions that he already has stashed away for himself and the next 10 generations of his family.
- I can assure all of you, I will never do business with him again.
When he bought this team, he knew that as an owner, he may make millions at times and at others, he may take a loss, and if so, it's his responsibility as the owner of the business to soak up the loss - not mine.
When times are good, and he is making money, he doesn't come to me and say, "Hey, thanks for buying tickets ahead of time, here's a portion of my earnings"
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Dude, you can't even remotely compare returning a screwdriver to a hardware store with the fantasy world of professional sports ownership.
That isn't comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing fairy dust and black holes.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Trades are a part of the game. While Cliff and VMart may not be there, the product is. So you knew going into the season that there was a chance that either or both of those guys could be traded. Now does it suck? Yes. But is it unprecedented? Absolutely not.
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Legend
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Does Home Depot give you a portion of their profit? No.
You just got done saying you realized you may not get to see these 2 players when you bought the tickets, yet now that you KNOW you can't, you want your money back?
Professional sports is NOT like Home Depot. Sorry to inform you.
What would be next? You buy season tickets with the hope that your team makes the playoffs, then when it's obvious they won't, you want a refund?
What would you do if your wife bought a gallon of milk, then found out the next day that all of you are lactose intolerant and can't drink it, demand a refund?
Say you bought carpet for your living room, then found out the next day you only had a week to live, would you demand a refund?
The only obligation a team has to you, or me/anyone, is to put a product on the field. You, or anyone, pays the ticket price ahead of time of your own free will. As long as there is a game on that day, you're out of luck.
My brother had 4 plane tickets to go from Indiana (actually, from O'hare in Illinois) to California. His son's team won the Indiana state L.L. tournament which means they play this weekend, when the family was leaving for a 10 day vacation. Should he get a refund on the plane tickets? Heck no. And he didn't.
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I think Larry Dolan owes you a personal apology, and Ammo too.
Eat it Phil...
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Quote:
The only obligation a team has to you, or me/anyone, is to put a product on the field. You, or anyone, pays the ticket price ahead of time of your own free will. As long as there is a game on that day, you're out of luck.
Agreed. - The only obligation Home Depot has to me is to give me what I paid for. - If Home Depot goes out of business a day after I buy my drill, and my drill breaks, I have to soak up the loss. However, Home Depot gives me no reason to believe that they will be going out of business anytime soon and they have never given me a hassle when returning anything, so I continue to shop there. - Good business, and I return.
The Cleveland Indians, on the other hand, have proven to me that they are willing to take my money for their product in December and not care whether or not I get what I paid for. They have my money in their hands and that's all they care about. When they traded Lee and Martinez they weren't concerned that people who had already bought tickets, nor were they offering refunds for those tickets - Bad business.
Agree that it's bad business Arch?
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Was it bad business or baseball when Harry Frazee sold Babe Ruth to the yankees?
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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No, I don't agree. It's called business. And what I find extremely ironic is, you stated that when you bought the tickets you knew you may not see these 2 players, yet here you are complaining about it.
You bought tickets to a game. There will be a game.
The whole Home Depot comparison thing is not working for you at all.
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Legend
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For years I've looked at sports ownership as a toy or a hobby. Sure a guy should expect to operate and make money...but ultimately it's a uber rich mans game and losing some bucks to win sometimes is part of the game.
Dan Gilbert has said a thousand times he knows he has to spend money to make money.
Small market or not, this city supports a winner and Dan Gilbert and Dick Jacobs have proven that.
I don't think the Dolans have the cash or the stomach to own a team.
I've heard this argument before....and I've actually used it, but it's actually not good business. Face it, these owners got rich for making good financial decisions, not following the advice of a bunch of goofballs on a online forum. Having a top-10 payroll isn't smart in this economy and Cleveland's small market.
Carl Pohlad, the Twins owner from 84-09, was one of the richest men in America. He had a net worth of almost 3 billion (just died in Jan). He could have bought 10 Johan Santana's, 12 Torri Hunters and not noticed a difference in his bottom line....but they're gone from the Twins because that market can't afford them. He operated that team based on the incoming revenue. Their fans didn't like it and the team was almost contracted but they're actually a very healthy team. They contend using the same model the Indians are using.
Dolan isn't "cheap"....he's running the Indians as a business. With LBJ, the Browns and a bad economy, the Indians aren't the best ticket in town. People aren't interested unless it's the postseason. It's hard for him to spend, spend, and spend to stay competitive every year. We were used to seeing a good-to-great Indians team on the field from 94 to 07 (minus 3-4 random seasons). That was the run of a lifetime for a small market team....don't get used to that.
We'll make a run every other year (or every other, other year). And we'll do our best to pay the young guys up front to get a few extra years before they're gone to the bigger markets. It's what Clevland has been doing since 1994. We're only bent about it because we didn't win in 95, 97 and 07 (when we should have). Had we won, we could all agree the model works.....but since we didn't, we can't agree the model works.*
*IMO, its the right model. The PLAYERS choked 95, 97 and 07 away (heck even 05). The owners put the players in position to win and their play failed us. We got lucky in the 90's, everything we touched was gold. We have to work harder now.
Last edited by Punchsmack; 08/06/09 04:10 PM.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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1st String
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Look at it this way.... next year there could be cheaper ticket prices! Baseball is baseball and for me... it's going to be great watching young players fighting for their dream of bein a mainstay in the big leagues to come true.
I don't mind driving 4 hours (there and back) to watch an Indians game for $20 or less... the rest of this season, you can get tickets on stubhub for like $10 (VIEW BOX SEATS THAT IS!!!!) and go watch the Indians of the future.
You still get to see baseball on the cheap and you helping the team by purchasing a ticket and likely merchandise or concessions while there as well.
I can't stand it when fans only go see a team because they are winning or because they have Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez. These are the same fans that will be shouting they've been there through thick and thin when the team wins a penant or ring.
I just got back from Boston, every team is winning over there, but I couldn't believe how many Red Sox shirts and hats you saw on the streets. People live and die for baseball, football, and basketball over there.... more so the Red Sox just like Cleveland does for the Browns, but still...
I know everyone doesn't like all three sports, but I have always wondered where the Cavs and Browns fans are when it comes baseball season. It is substantially less to go watch a baseball game, yet no one comes. The Browns and Cavs sellout games, but the Indians can't get 20,000. You still get to see professional athletes. You still get to experience a major league baseball game in a major league park. It just doesn't make sense to me.
I've always wanted to live near Cleveland that way I could be a season ticket holder. Now I see people saying they'll never buy Indians or Browns season tickets again because the team sucks and they hate the coaches or players.
If I lived 40 minutes or less away from Cleveland I would likely try to catch 40 games or more a season (indians). Even I didn't have season tickets...I would grab some great seats for a few games and then spend the rest of the game sitting in the upper reserved or bleachers.
the more fans through the gates.... the better the chances of signing a CC or Lee. However, you have to remember too that this is MLB. We would still have to compete with the Yanks and Red Sox over these players. It may not matter how much we have in the bank when trying to win a contractual fight over a player. We offered CC, he left. We offered Thome, he left. Victor would have stayed, but we're broke and can't afford it.
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Heck, make the team public again instead of private ownership.
That model served Dick Jacobs quite well and most likely tipped the scales in our favor for that run of the 90's.
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I don't mind driving 4 hours (there and back) to watch an Indians game for $20 or less... the rest of this season, you can get tickets on stubhub for like $10 (VIEW BOX SEATS THAT IS!!!!) and go watch the Indians of the future.
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I can't stand it when fans only go see a team because they are winning or because they have Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez.
Oh, I get it. As long as tickets are cheap, you'll go see the team play. So, people like me are wrong for buying tickets at face value and expecting to see what we paid face value to see.
Heck, everybody should adopt your strategy, the Indians would be in great shape then.
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Legend
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I know everyone doesn't like all three sports, but I have always wondered where the Cavs and Browns fans are when it comes baseball season. It is substantially less to go watch a baseball game, yet no one comes. The Browns and Cavs sellout games, but the Indians can't get 20,000.
Cleveland is a football town...the Browns will sell-out regardless of the state of the team.
The Tribe and the Cavs will not fill seats unless they win.
Hell, if we didn't land the LeBron, the Cavs would likely be in Oklahoma CIty or Charlotte by now.
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Legend
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Trades are a part of the game. While Cliff and VMart may not be there, the product is. So you knew going into the season that there was a chance that either or both of those guys could be traded. Now does it suck? Yes. But is it unprecedented? Absolutely not.
trading cy young winners (both of whom are in their prime) in back to back years because of financial reasons is however, unprecedented.
nobody can make the argument that the yankees, red sox, cubs, dodgers, or mets make these same moves.
the other thing is, don't the yankees, for as much as we rip them, take a loss every year?
i could be wrong, but i think they have taken a loss ever since they brought a-rod and his ridiculous (still ridiculous) contract aboard.
how would the new york media receive that? if they came out and whined about them taking a loss?
the dolans equal fail. major league baseball equals fail.
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Like others have said, you paid for tickets to an Indians game. When that date comes around, you will ge to see an Indians game. So Cliff Lee and Victor are gone.....so what! There was a 1-in-5 chance Cliff wouldn't be pitching so you can't be too upset about that. Victor is only one of the players. We still have Sizemore, Choo, Cabrera, Carroll (good young player), Carmona, Pavano, Wood, and even Hafner (hitting .285 in as many AB's as last year).
You act like Lee and Victor were the ONLY reasons to watch the game. Heck, it sounds like you aren't even concerned if we were in last place, as long as Lee and Victor would be on the field....then you'd be happy.
Look, if you're that upset, sell or give the tickets away. You can't really expect the Dolan's to personally refund your money because we traded two players. If the tables were turned and the Tribe was 100-40 at the time, you could sell the tickets on eBay for a profit.....would it be fair for the Dolans to want that profit? It's a gamble.
I'm a season ticket holder for the Bears (I put my name on the list when I moved here 9 years ago expecting to get them 20 years from now). I understand there's a very decent chance those cold December games could be to watch a junky Bears team. I won't cry and moan about how I paid good money to see a bad teamand demand a refund. I either go....or don't go. Same with you.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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All Pro
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It's sports and that's the gamble you take when paying for your tickets.
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Legend
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trading cy young winners (both of whom are in their prime) in back to back years because of financial reasons is however, unprecedented.
unprecedented? he may have never won the award himself, but Cleveland teams traded THE Cy Young....not once, but twice 
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Like others have said, you paid for tickets to an Indians game. When that date comes around, you will ge to see an Indians game. So Cliff Lee and Victor are gone.....so what! There was a 1-in-5 chance Cliff wouldn't be pitching so you can't be too upset about that. Victor is only one of the players. We still have Sizemore, Choo, Cabrera, Carroll (good young player), Carmona, Pavano, Wood, and even Hafner (hitting .285 in as many AB's as last year).
You act like Lee and Victor were the ONLY reasons to watch the game. Heck, it sounds like you aren't even concerned if we were in last place, as long as Lee and Victor would be on the field....then you'd be happy.
Look, if you're that upset, sell or give the tickets away. You can't really expect the Dolan's to personally refund your money because we traded two players. If the tables were turned and the Tribe was 100-40 at the time, you could sell the tickets on eBay for a profit.....would it be fair for the Dolans to want that profit? It's a gamble.
I'm a season ticket holder for the Bears (I put my name on the list when I moved here 9 years ago expecting to get them 20 years from now). I understand there's a very decent chance those cold December games could be to watch a junky Bears team. I won't cry and moan about how I paid good money to see a bad teamand demand a refund. I either go....or don't go. Same with you.
i'm not gonna defend the ticket refunding thing, cause im with you on that, but it's not that people thought lee and martinez were the greatest players ever, but i think it's the trend. nobody is staying. no good players are sticking around. anyone think sizemore gets re-signed in 2 years? what reason would you have to think so?
anyone think if any of these cats the indians just traded for, turn out to be good, will stick around?
it's the 2nd part to this cycle. people don't like it. it's a bad trend.
it's not all the dolans, i think mlb is to blame as well. but i think it does not sit well with these people to watch good player after good player traded away for lottery tickets.
i can't defend ticket refunding. i think that's dumb.
i won't be paying for tribe tickets any time soon, and that's my choice. nobody is forcing anyone to buy any tickets.
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nobody can make the argument that the yankees, red sox, cubs, dodgers, or mets make these same moves.
What markets are those teams in? HUGE markets. The very markets that overpay for the players that enter free angency from the low-to-mid market teams. Of course they don't worry about losing a key player entering their prime. They have the resources to match EVERY offer and then go steal players from the Royals, Twins, Indians, Brewers and Pirates.
Again, trading CC was the smartest deal we could make. CC made it clear he was going for the highest contract he could find. So that meant we would have to outbid the Yanks. That is impossible. The Yanks have an enormous TV deal and a brand new stadium with CRAZY cash rolling in. The Indians couldn't come close. Heck, even the other mid-to-large market teams were complaining about the unlevel playing field the Yanks are on after they signed CC and Tex. We had two options, trade or let CC walk. If you think paying him his Yankee contract was a possibility in Cleveland than you're really not thinking.
With Lee, it was the same situation but with one year added. We could have kept Lee for a run next year but any trade next year wouldn't net us as much of a return. I heard Carl Ravage explain that 1.5 year trades net more than .5 year trades. Most baseball expert agree with that. Does it suck we gave up on next year to get a little more for Lee now? Sure. But it's still a "smart" move considering Lee was going to chase the big contract too.
The Victor trade hurt. I get you. However, I don't buy the crap that he was willing to take less to stay an Indian. That's PR crap so he can come off a good guy. NO player has ever followed through with that promise (well, Griffey tried in Cincy). And if Victor did take 30-40% less to stay, I would call him a moron. You never pass up more money.
As far as the Yanks balance sheet at the end of each year goes, I can't speak for that. Something tells me they are coming out ahead. They have a bigger stadium, a bigger TV deal (by a factor of 100), outsell almost every other professional sports team in merchandice, and play in the biggest market in the country (with other more avenues for marketing). Trust me, it's a safe bet they're pulling in enough cash to pay the bills and revenue sharing taxes. I don't see how they could have bought CC and Tex being in the red from last year (and re-upped Arod recently).
And even if they are still losing money, then they're lucky to have an owner that wants to spend their own money. Most owners don't follow that model. We are lucky to have Gilbert for the Cavs. Maybe if Mark Cuban bought the Indians it would change.....but until then, this is the reality.
You keep saying it's the Dolans fault AND baseball. It's more on baseball man. I think you know that. Baseball is broke. We all agree there. The Dolans are only following a model that doesn't cripple this franchise(if we had signed CC and he went down, we'd be SCREWED [see Hafner]).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Was it bad business or baseball when Harry Frazee sold Babe Ruth to the yankees?
there was more to it than that:
1. Connie Mack prematurely broke up his great Athletics team in 1915 so he would not have to get into a bidding war with the Federal League. The A's were horrible until 1928.
2. Carl Mays and Duffy Lewis went to New York as well. The Red Sox, in addition to the A's were ruined. But... the Red Sox were finished for decades.
3. The best team in the AL, the White Sox, was ruined by the gambling scandal. That was 3 teams finished and let the door wide open for the Yanks.
4. Who was to know that the home run was to replace the stolen base as the most important offensive weapon. The home run sold tickets and the Yankees , almost overnight, went from a mediocre franchise to the richest and winningest team in pro sports.
IOW,
They Got Lucky 
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i'm not gonna defend the ticket refunding thing, cause im with you on that, but it's not that people thought lee and martinez were the greatest players ever, but i think it's the trend. nobody is staying. no good players are sticking around. anyone think sizemore gets re-signed in 2 years? what reason would you have to think so?
Thank you for understanding. I never said I wanted my money back, rather, I was trying to illustrate the poor business philosophy involved here. People took that as me demanding my money back, which I never would.
To touch on what you wrote:
-There is a trend establishing itself here, which is going to lead to people like my wife and I not buying Indians tickets until after the trade deadline. We have no faith or trust in the Indians ownership.
As far as I'm concerned, the Browns and Cavs have absolutely nothing to do with this. Larry Dolan bought the Indians. Larry Dolan dumped salary to save himself a few bucks. Nevermind that the Indians may have put something together next year, nevermind Cleveland's familiarity with Victor and Lee, essentially, nevermind the fans. I don't like it and I won't trust him going forward.
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Legend
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Posts: 30,928 |
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Thank you for understanding. I never said I wanted my money back,
and yet you said this in your first post: "Unlike Home Depot, mind you, Larry Dolan won't give me my money back, nor will he let me trade my tickets for any sort of Indians team shop credit"
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-There is a trend establishing itself here, which is going to lead to people like my wife and I not buying Indians tickets until after the trade deadline. We have no faith or trust in the Indians ownership.
The really weird and ironic thing here is: that's your right. You can even sell the tickets you have - that's an option for you as well.
End of discussion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649
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Arch, dude, take it easy. I didn't realize you would get so emotional and upset about this. Man, I was just trying to write my views and opinions. I always appreciate your feedback, but man, I certainly didn't want to get battered around like that. Geeez.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Ah, come on man, I'm not "battering" you. You stated your thoughts/position/view, I stated mine. No harm no foul. Battering is what pit and I used to do to each other. 
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Like others have said, you paid for tickets to an Indians game. When that date comes around, you will ge to see an Indians game.
Maybe, to make things more fair regarding the arguement that Muni is making, perhaps if the Indians were leading the division going into August they should tack on a $5 surchrage to every ticket that's been purchased, or the ticketholder can't get into the game.
Sounds fair to me.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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anyone think sizemore gets re-signed in 2 years? what reason would you have to think so?
If the Indians are winning and the team is drawing 40k every night, it's likely the team would invest in someone like Sizemore for the long-haul. However, if they aren't, then Sizemore is gone.
However, again, that's not about Dolan. That's about baseball and the discrepencies between the have's and the have-not's.
Imagine if the salary-cap wasn't in the NFL. The Giants, the Pats, the Jets, the Cowboys, and one or two other teams would be contending most years and buying up most of the free-agent talent, while a full dozen teams would never stand the chance of getting top-end free-agent players.
As a side note, I don't care how much money I have. If I'm losing $16 million bucks in one season, I'm dumping payroll as well 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Again, you've got me wrong. This isn't about wins and losses. This is about trading away players and cutting payroll. Lee and Victor didn't need to be traded, the team isn't better because they were traded. They were traded because Larry Dolan is more concerned about his pocketbook than he is about the welfare of this team. - I don't buy tickets with Larry Dolan's pocketbook in mind, I buy tickets with the welfare of this team in mind.
I have no problem buying tickets in December and watching a meaningless game in September. But I do have a problem with the Indians owner putting his personal finances in front of the health of this team.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Imagine if the salary-cap wasn't in the NFL. The Giants, the Pats, the Jets, the Cowboys, and one or two other teams would be contending most years and buying up most of the free-agent talent, while a full dozen teams would never stand the chance of getting top-end free-agent players.
not exactly.
the yankees and red sox can kill everyone else in payroll because they get that money from the yes network and nesn, respectively.
big markets wouldn't get that in the nfl, all games are broadcast on national channels. the giants wouldn't be able to have a 200 million dollar payroll with the ny giants network.
doesn't work like that. and that's why the threat of an uncapped year doesn't really scare me. not to mention that football isn't so much based on individuals as it is in baseball. football is more about coaching and systems (talent does play its part)
plus, just about all nfl owners are in serious money. i think the dolans are a little out of their league (no pun intended)
what i would love to see is mlb adopt what the nba does, allowing teams to keep their own guys by allowing them to pay more. setting a max.
but that has about as much of a chance happening as this indians team making the world series.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
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Legend
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Again, you've got me wrong. This isn't about wins and losses. This is about trading away players and cutting payroll. Lee and Victor didn't need to be traded, the team isn't better because they were traded. They were traded because Larry Dolan is more concerned about his pocketbook than he is about the welfare of this team.
Again, you fail to understand where Lee and Martinez would be if they weren't traded......signed to a big market team in two years. So we either get prospects for them now so they might be ready in 2-3 years OR get compensation draft picks when they leave that might be ready 3-5 years from now. THAT is mostly why they traded.
The other reason, the Dolan's claim they were very deep in the red (fans not coming to watch a losing team and a poor economy). So, believe it or not, cutting payroll is going to help the welfare of the team. They are aligning themselves to make another run in 2-3 years. Is it going to help them win more now and next year? That can be debated since we've recently been on a hot streak  . But yes, we will probably lose more this and next season due to this trade.
So yes, part of the reason why they were traded because of money..........is it really that bad that an owner of a business care about losing money?
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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I was actually being snarky. A smiley here or there would have gotten that message across.
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Again, you've got me wrong. This isn't about wins and losses. This is about trading away players and cutting payroll. Lee and Victor didn't need to be traded, the team isn't better because they were traded.
Your statement is a contradiction.
Commenting that the team isn't better by trading away the players is a clear indication you're talking about wins and losses.
However, since it IS about payroll and running a business, Lee and Victor DID have to be traded away.
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They were traded because Larry Dolan is more concerned about his pocketbook than he is about the welfare of this team.
As I'd stated, If we're talking about me losing $16 million dollars, I'm looking after my pocketbook, not the welfare of the team.
Odds are he didn't buy the Indians because he "loved" the Indians. He did it with his eyes on the bottom line. That bottom line isn't winning.
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I don't buy tickets with Larry Dolan's pocketbook in mind, I buy tickets with the welfare of this team in mind.
You actually buy the tickets to be entertained. Somehow, I doubt you really care about the welfare of the team. 
You and Dolan both have one common goal: To see a winner. The difference is that it's not your butt that has to see $16 million less in your checking account at year's end.
I get that you don't care about his money. You just want a winner. I'm here to tell you that blaming Dolan is misguided, because he can only work within the constraints of what the economy of Cleveland gives him.
This isn't a "chicken or the egg" question in terms of a whether or not investing money into the team will bring the fans. It absolutely will NOT. While spending money gives you a better shot at winning, it doesn't guarantee anything, so spending huge dollars on players when you run the risk of seeing 20k and no more enter the gates every night is dicey under good economic times. Since this is the worst economy in numerous generations, to expect any owner of a small or mid-market team to just dump millions upon millions into the team isn't realistic.
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But I do have a problem with the Indians owner putting his personal finances in front of the health of this team.
If it were your money, you'd be singing a different tune.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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everything changed the day shapiro was forced to trade bartolo colon.
Funny side note..... Bartolo is missing AGAIN
Have you seen this man? <picture of a well fed Bart within the link>
By Joe Cowley on August 6, 2009
That's OK, because neither have the White Sox.
For the second time in the last five weeks, the Sox have "misplaced'' their 300-pound, often injured right-handed pitcher, as Bartolo Colon - this time on the DL with a sore right elbow - is once again missing.
"Right now, I don't see it,'' manager Ozzie Guillen first replied on Thursday, when asked if he thought Colon could help again this season. "Hopefully, he is, not late in September. But right now, we've got to wait another, what, 12 days to see exactly what it is. Then he's got to go to another rehab assignment.''
Guillen was then asked where Colon has been, and started to laugh.
"No, he's not here,'' Guillen said. "[Where?] ... that's the hardest question you ask me, where is Colon? I think I don't see him pitching here in the next 20 days because he's got to go to a rehab assignments, start over with a pitching thing and we'll see what happens.''
The Sox do know where Jake Peavy is, however. He was in San Diego this week, testing his injured right ankle on the mound Wednesday and having good results.
"[Wednesday] went very well,'' pitching coach Don Cooper said of Peavy's session. "He turned up the intensity more, second time off the mound, and he's looking to continue to climb.''
The Sox will have him back in town on Saturday, and he will throw off the mound again. If that goes well, he can begin his rehab assignment as early as next Thursday.
"At least three,'' Cooper said of the number of rehab starts Peavy would likely need. "But you know, he's going to tell us more and more as we go. He's going to give us a lot of the answers, how he's feeling and how he's throwing.''
Basically, if Peavy stays on schedule, that puts his debut for the Sox on Aug. 28, against the New York Yankees at the new Yankee Stadium. The lights don't get any brighter.
And maybe, just maybe, Colon will have turned up somewhere by then.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Indians to lose $16M this year
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