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j/c
I could see the decision revolving around the play of Mack & Fraley during pre-season PLUS the thought about our interior line backup(s).
Think about it this way:
If the two guys are relatively close in performance at C yet Fraley would be a MUCH better option if needed at G, then what do you do?
I know the best player should start, but what makes the unit stronger and deeper?
If Hadnot were healthy, I could see Hank getting the start w/ Hadnot and Mack as backups.
Just thoughts...I am no OL expert...or even a hack.
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RT...Womack can play RT, Hadnot should be ready...what is he on the injury reports?
Hadnot is OUT for the game...that's the main reason I'm concerned....we essentially are going into the opener with 7 OL and no backups at T and G...Fraley isn't a G and Womack isn't athletic enough to play RT and none of us wants to find out what an UDFA rookie RT looks like ..sure, we can re-shuffle half the line to make it "work" on paper but it's not what I expected BEFORE we have even played a down....so much for Mangini building depth 
okay, thinking it through....
St. Clair gets hurt, then Steiny slides over to RT....Hank takes the LG spot.
Mack or an OG gets hurt, Hank steps in.
JoeT gets hurt and we flip off the TV.
So, I actually think we are okay with one guy out. If we get 2 injuries, then we are in trouble.
#gmstrong
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1st String
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Both guards can slide out to tackle if needed. Hank can play both interior spots and center. One injury, yes, we are covered..... two I have no idea. I guess there are a lot of linemen out there unsigned that could be signed in a pinch.
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Both guards can slide out to tackle if needed. Hank can play both interior spots and center. One injury, yes, we are covered..... two I have no idea. I guess there are a lot of linemen out there unsigned that could be signed in a pinch.
I agree...I just like Steinbach out at OT better than Womack. I like Womack a lot at OG (he's had a very good preseason), but he's not nearly as athletic as Steinbach, which is why I think he could handle the move better.
and glad to see you are able to ignore the sillies on the site that feel the need to trash our grittiest OL. most of us love that we have Hank to fill in those 3 spots.
#gmstrong
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Danielle and Clay, Montana is crawling with deer (and coyotes) this year. I went to Yellowstone to camp and excluding the ones in the park since you can't hunt inside, we counted around 20 bucks with at least 6 points and 5 of them were 10 pointers. It should be a pretty good season up here, unfortunately I will not have time to get out this year 
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I don't think we should slam anybody for expressing their opinions, even when we clearly see how wrong they are.
Why not? I have no problem getting slammed if somebody does not agree with my opinion. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Yeah, it's a forced play...but I understand...Mangini would look like an idiot if none of his 4 1st day rookies is good enough to start on a 4 win team (which is the sad truth if you go by performance...and the 1st sign of a draft fail job)
I understand that bro However IMO the best player plays. If or When Mack plays better than Hank then more power to him, that improves the team. However playing somebody just to make a coach or GM look better is not good for the team. That was my beef.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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The state of Ohio is estimating 655,000 deer in state going into deer season, We harvested about 290,000 last year. Granted 3/4 of that number is located in south eastern part of Ohio but over here in NWO were seeing alot more in numbers and size, I've noticed alot more fawns this year than in the past 4-5 years which some say indicates a growing population, hope so our freezer needs filled, Where I'm at we can only take 2 deer but last year we hunted my buddies 100 achers in Defiance and harvested 28 deer in one week of shot gun season, so we did pretty good. Looking to do that again this year, maybe I will have to get out the first week of Bow, LOL.....Getting that itch... 
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If or When Mack plays better than Hank then more power to him, that improves the team. However playing somebody just to make a coach or GM look better is not good for the team.
Coaches and GMs make decisions all the time that balance winning now with winning in the future.... The Patriots didn't trade Richard Seymour because they have somebody better to take his place... they traded him because they feel like they can absorb the loss and accumulate draft picks for the future...
yebat' Putin
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Now your talking trades bro. If the Pats kept Seymour, but started somebody else instead of him I would be disagreeing with BB
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Patriots always take advantage of other GM's who are not that bright...Seymour in no way is worth a first round pick..
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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The state of Ohio is estimating 655,000 deer in state going into deer season, We harvested about 290,000 last year. Granted 3/4 of that number is located in south eastern part of Ohio but over here in NWO were seeing alot more in numbers and size, I've noticed alot more fawns this year than in the past 4-5 years which some say indicates a growing population, hope so our freezer needs filled, Where I'm at we can only take 2 deer but last year we hunted my buddies 100 achers in Defiance and harvested 28 deer in one week of shot gun season, so we did pretty good. Looking to do that again this year,
maybe I will have to get out the first week of Bow, LOL.....Getting that itch...
I'm buying a new bow clay, a mathews missions eliminator...only $400...for a mathews bow. I can't wait, I know theres couple of good bucks in and around the farm. 3 weeks, and its on!
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The Pats also don't keep aging vets that no longer produce...they would rather let younger players, even rooks take over. Winners do that, losers pick up old FA and keep them on the field based on what they used to do.
You don't see that with the Pats, Steelers, Eagles, Ravens...etc.
Starting Mack is a step towards that, now if we could do that more, we might be heading in the right direction.
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Now your talking trades bro. If the Pats kept Seymour, but started somebody else instead of him I would be disagreeing with BB
So would I because the Pats are ready to win right now..... But it is basically the same.. the Patriots chose to NOT play the best player they had at a position because to NOT play him, helped them in the future (getting rid of him via trade)... how does that differ from playing a rookie over a vet (who is probably a little better) to get your rookie ready for the future?
yebat' Putin
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I still disagree. If we started out 2-5 then yep throw him in there, but if we started out 5-2 then nope.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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What if we start out 5-2 with him in there? 
yebat' Putin
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What if we start out 5-2 with him in there?
Then it's a moot point, because individuals don't make a team when the team is winning, only when they are losing is it an individuals fault. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Then I will give ya a big kiss 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I'm buying a new bow clay, a mathews missions eliminator
Cant go wrong with a Matthews, Would love to buy one myself, one of these years, I shot an old PSE for the last 10 years, it's about time for a new one..now if I can just convince the misses.
yep three weeks and it's on, Good luck let us kow how ya do, Be safe...
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, it's a forced play...but I understand...Mangini would look like an idiot if none of his 4 1st day rookies is good enough to start on a 4 win team (which is the sad truth if you go by performance...and the 1st sign of a draft fail job)
I understand that bro However IMO the best player plays. If or When Mack plays better than Hank then more power to him, that improves the team. However playing somebody just to make a coach or GM look better is not good for the team. That was my beef.
I'm not viewing it that way.
Nobody in the FO would ever admit that they don't expect to be a contender, but that's exactly what they are thinking. Sure, anything is possible, but reason and common sense has to take precedent. To that end, while Fraley may have outplayed Mack in preseason, playing Mack now is an investment in the future, and that's the right move.
This isn't about a coach or a GM trying to validate their existence. This is about getting a guy some playing time so he can learn and get better faster.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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So would I because the Pats are ready to win right now..... But it is basically the same.. the Patriots chose to NOT play the best player they had at a position because to NOT play him, helped them in the future (getting rid of him via trade)... how does that differ from playing a rookie over a vet (who is probably a little better) to get your rookie ready for the future
Man I wish u guys would word things a bit better...the Pats play their best players..however if a rookie is equal to the vet, they'll play the vet(as should be ) until it's the offseason and then they'll trade the vet..costs more..
Playing a rookie is twofold..if he's ready to go U put him in unless the vet over him is clearly better..
In this case they believe Mack's upside will propel him over Hank once he gets experience...he's going to make rookie mistakes but theywill live with that ..
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"Thanks for everyone who does support Hank, and for those that don't.....thanks for supporting Mack! One team.
And that says it all right there...and I'm sure you are regurgitating how Hank is permeating the situation. Why he will probably be here for his current contract and possibly longer.
Django...didn't know he is out (Hadnot) - sure 7 looks shaky...but keep in mind I don't think we have dressed more than 8 in quite a while...so just one down.
Womack...he's athletic enough to play RT short term...moves a lot better since weight loss. Or we go with the rookie...heck there are teams out there going with rookies as starters. We are not that bad off.
As for the choice of Mack...starter ...I think the writing was on the wall as he snapped for BQ the last game(Titans)...Hank snapped for DA.
pick...first off just what was Vers correct about? Drafting Mack? actually if it was negative I don't see it being correct as he embarks on his Impact as a Starter in the NFL. On the trade downs...pfft heck of a lot better than going to 17 and taking Barwin. Maclin? Why when we got MoMas and Robo later....I like Maclin btw...its just you are whining about taking a Center...why go WR? that low.
There were only two Centers we deemed good for our Division...Wood and Mack...neither would be there in the 2nd.
In a pretty decent draft...3 Centers went in the top 50 - somedat you will realize that this was not ordinary Center Class what surprises me most is that you are a self proclaimed draft guru/personnel guy. You should have known that.
Interior Backup...right now its all on Hank. But look at his History...Since 01 he's been a starter 119 out of 120 games. Only the 05 season did he miss half the games (Assume vie injury) Since then...Played n starter 48 games in a row.
This will be his first season as a backup - rookie year didn't play at all.
He's been an Iron man...I mean if you just want to pretend GM and point fingers about anything you can possibly NIT PICK on ...  Go right ahead.
But them relying on Hank for one or two games as a Backup and actually think he'll last isn't exactly a stretch.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I have all the respect for Hank in the world, when LeCharles went down and Nalen suddenly retired, we were in a fix. Hank came in, played his heart out and gave his all. Just two years ago with him as our starter we had one of the best o-lines in the NFL. If Mack won the job then congrats to him. I can see why they'd give him the nod as they believe he is our C of the future but IMO Hank had a helluva preseason.
With that said we now have one of the best backup lineman out there
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
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Man I wish u guys would word things a bit better...the Pats play their best players..however if a rookie is equal to the vet, they'll play the vet(as should be ) until it's the offseason and then they'll trade the vet..costs more..
The Pats just traded their sack leader from last year (with 8) for a draft pick that, at best, will contribute in 2011.. and replaced him with a guy that had 1 sack last year and is about the same age.... so, I wish you could read things a little better. 
yebat' Putin
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Rrrrright...anyway..the Pats are notorious for trading people on the decline..and they draft as smart as anyone..they take players for a particular position about 2 years in advance..so they do it like college teams..they retool instead of having to rebuild.
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Unlike some others on here... You misses, are a true CLASS ACT!
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Where I'm at we can only take 2 deer but last year we hunted my buddies 100 achers in Defiance and harvested 28 deer in one week of shot gun season, so we did pretty good. Looking to do that again this year,
Must've had quite a few guys hunting.
I just got a bow a month ago - now I need to figure out exactly how the heck to hit what I'm aiming at.
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1st String
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Shoot a few arrows then follow the arrows when adjusting your sights. If you are down and to the left, move the sight down and to the left. Make sure you always shoot 2 arrows to make sure its not you that did something wrong. Most of the time you will find a pattern. Do the same thing every time and you should be good! Make sure you do that for each pin on your sight........ get good at 20 yards and then move to 30 then 40. I need to get up in a tree and work on shooting out of a stand. I just don't want to be the "weird neighbor" using a climber in the back yard! 
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The Pats just traded their sack leader from last year (with 8) for a draft pick that, at best, will contribute in 2011..
Being a Browns fan it's hard for me to believe but I've heard tell that other teams actually draft players that contribute right away. Honest, not just at the local Benz dealer, on the field !
For that reason I'm praying that Macks good enough to start.If we traded Sanchez for 2 bench warmers.... Well I feel sick typing it. 
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I don't hunt them because I don't eat them but I have 6 to 20 deer in my front yard every morning.
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I have them in the back yard. They like to hangout at the creek to eat and drink. They never leave a tip and my hostas and shrubbery look like some thing Uncle Fester tended.
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: if they targeted Mack that hard they would not have traded down twice for 6th rounders IN RETURN because the Bills, Vikings or even the Steelers could have traded up to snatch Mack away...sooo, they were either dumb risking their coveted player
You do realize that it costs less, actually it pays you to move down, than it does to move up in the draft? Do you think the Bills or the Steelers would want to spend a few of their draft picks to move up to pick him up? That fact of the matter is we moved down to not overdraft him or risk losing him as a pick..
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I'm working on it. Have to, wife wasn't happy with the 1 deer I got last year. We ran out of meat. This bow thing is very similar to shooting a gun. I just need to get either myself adjusted to the bow, or the bow adjusted to me. IF, IF I get that done, where I'm confident I'll hit what I'm aiming at, I'll be out for bow seasn, If not, .....well, my wife will kick my ..........anyway, I think I'll get it. 
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All Pro
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I need to get up in a tree and work on shooting out of a stand. I just don't want to be the "weird neighbor" using a climber in the back yard!
Weird neighbor? Around my area nobody would even notice. Well, they might if they thought you were getting set up to get THEIR deer that they'd been watching from the back patio all year.
Gotta run. It's time to hoist the BROWNS flag in anticipation of tomorrow.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Quote:
Quote:
: if they targeted Mack that hard they would not have traded down twice for 6th rounders IN RETURN because the Bills, Vikings or even the Steelers could have traded up to snatch Mack away...sooo, they were either dumb risking their coveted player
You do realize that it costs less, actually it pays you to move down, than it does to move up in the draft?
That might be the dumbest thing I've read in quite a while, if you're trying to talk about value (picks) compensation....think about it for 1min
If you meant money wise, yeah it costs a bit less but the difference between 17 and 21 is marginal and not as significant as 5 to 10 or 1 to 5....no argument here imho
and if you just wanted to defend the trade downs: it's still dumb to trade down for 6th rounders in the 1st round if Mack was the clear cut #1 on your board with no close second....if they gambled and got lucky it still was dumb....it's like pushing all in preflop with any 2 and be proud that everybody folded..it won't always work (see no further than Carey "gamble")
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if they gambled and got lucky it still was dumb.
Actually, it was nothing more than "risky."
It would have been "dumb" if they had failed.
Regarding taking "only" 6th round picks for the trades, it's my personal feeling that they took junk picks for no other reason than to justify not selecting Mack in the existing slot. To put it in blunt terms, they'd have been crucified if they'd have simply passed on taking him in order to take him at a cheaper slot.
I would have called the selection a win had they gotten nothing for the trade-downs. I also can't call the gambles "dumb" when they landed their guy at a price they were willing to pay.
That isn't dumb. It's good business.
The only way the selection of Mack now can possibly become "dumb" is if he turns out to be a dud.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You all presuppose that nobody else was willing to take/trade up for Mack in the 17-21 area...well I think there ALWAYS is a chance of that happening, especially with 3 other teams in the lower half of the round having C as major need (MIN/BUF/PIT)...so the equation becomes: Mack+2x6th rounders >/= risk of losing him+Mack....simpler: do 2 6th and some thump change (really no big difference between 17th and 21st money) outweigh the risk of not getting him...I don't think so
I'm happy they got the guy they wanted AND got something out of it...but don't think it was worth it....when they made these deals I said to my buddy: "They're dumping picks, they can't have somebody they really want over their 2nd, 3rd guy etc"....it just didn't make sense then and still doesn't now...that's if you think about it...they either didn't value Mack that high or they were willing to gamble losing him for next to nothing....they were either frivolous or didn't care that much
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it just didn't make sense then and still doesn't now...that's if you think about it...
To use your own words, you're presupposing that you're the only one thinking. You guys start off from the same point, take two different roads, and arrive at different ends. Both end points use the same info, but utilize bias and inference. This is classic opinion/belief. You can harp on the same data as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's two opposing opinions. The only way we could find out for sure is if we talked to Mangini and he told the truth.
There are no sacred cows.
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I'm with Toad. I don't think a whole lot of teams are going to move up to that area to draft a center, especially when there's another very good prospect at the position in Wood. The Vikings, Steelers, and Bills are really the only teams I could have seen taking him. The Vikings also needed a receiver and right tackle, and with Harvin and Britten available, it didn't make sense for them. The Steelers needed DL depth and loved Hood, so it didn't make sense for them. The Bills thought the higher priority was guard, and they liked Wood better there, so it didn't make sense for them.
What you fail to realize is that the Browns know more about what other teams are thinking than we do. I knew all of that at the time of the draft, and I am privy to very little inside info like that. Think about how much more the Browns and the rest of the NFL knew.
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