DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Quinn talk part 2

I know I know, Many...several, maybe even everyone doesnt wanna talk about this anymore...refs if you agree, feel free to delete this.


but since the last thread was locked...and the debate was going south...I want to pose a question.

Lets say we go to re-evaluate the situation at game 6...or...whenever we decide we need to make a decision on Quinn. What does our record need to be for him to stay in...at say game 6. Or...at what point do we need to pull him? 1-3? 0-3? 2-4? 1-5?

@Denver
@Baltimore
v. Cincy
@Buffalo
@Pitt
v. GB
@Chi
bye
v. Bal
@Detroit
@Cincy
v. SD
v. Pitt
@KC
v. Oak
v. Jax

thats our schedule from here on out. how can quinn save his job after game 6 or at the bye...or...at what point do we pull the plug and try a different QB?

personally...I think that the moment we get 4 games under .500, or 3 games...we have to pull the plug. Because if DA is by any chance a QB that can save the season, we have to give him a chance while he can still save the season. Maybe he's not...and according to many on here, he isnt...but thats something that DA, by keeping the battle close, deserves the chance to take us to the playoffs. When do we pull the plug if Quinn is in fact the wrong guy. Or...when can we legitimately say that Quinn is off the hot seat. because i think that after yesterday he should be on the hot seat.

Looking at the schedule...what are must-win games for Quinn...and what is a record he needs to maintain. I think for him to be the guy...we gotta be .500 throughout the year...and before the bye...if we get 3 games under .500, or after the bye, if we get 4 games under .500...we pull the plug...

I dont think that Quinn deserves a year...and i think its put up or shut up time for him...and if we fall that far under...its time to go another direction. What do you guys think? When can we legitimately say he's succeeding? or when can we say hes sunk?

Again...i say if we get 3 games under .500 before the bye...its over. 0-3, 1-4, 2-5...good night. after the bye, if we get 4 games under...bye bye. If...Quinn gets us to .500 then he gets another year...with competition from Anderson...Ratliff or whoever is on the team.

This works because...if we end up 6-10 or worse...we'll be in position to get Bradford, McCoy, or Snead. If not...then we can get a defensive guy...or someone that can help our team...maybe an RB? If we fall...even if its to 5-9...i think we have to give Anderson a chance to see if he can succeed with our team...and draft someone if Quinn bombs, and Anderson doesnt prove he deserves another chance.

It was one game.

We're talking about how he could save his job? First off, the play calls were gawd awful. The protection pretty much sucked against their DL. Not that Quinn played well otherwise.

But damn, I'm going to watch him at least another game or 2 before I even enter this discussion about job saving.

Mangini is not going to pull Quinn at all this season...

I think Quinn deserves atleast two full seasons to get a good grasp of what he can do for Cleveland.

Hell, give him one full season.

People want to give him one game and pull the plug. Hope they don't do the same to their mothers when they get ill...

Personally I think at 1-4 we have to make a change. Depending on the circumstances and if the blame is placed squarely on his shoulders, not that it ever would be but......

I just really wish Anderson would have got at the very least 2 or 3 games to either prove me right or prove me wrong that he can be a good quarterback in this league with some help, more than he had last year anyways. So I can shut up about it.

Quote:

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I think Quinn deserves atleast two full seasons to get a good grasp of what he can do for Cleveland.

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Why, DA only got one and a half----and one of those seasons he went 10-5 as the starter. That wasn't good enough for Ctown though---especially when they had an "NFL ready" QB waiting in the wings to be the savior.

Quinn doesn't deserve jack.

we will not pull quinn based on the record. we will pull quinn if he doesn't prove that he provides an upgrade over DA. he'll have about 10 more games to do it.

Anderson got beat out by Quinn... Not my decision.. Not your decision... The coach's decision. He was a first round pick, whom everyone said was NFL ready. Even at this point we don't know what we have in him.

Anderson we do... Great gunslinger... but makes horrible decisions, and has trouble adjusting to the defense.

Anderson got beat out by a a million screaming Brady fans and Randy Lerner. No doubt about it, not even an inch of doubt.

Now i'm done.

neither won the competition, it was why mangini never said anyone "won." the announced the starting qb via the team website day of the first game, while mangini was still waiting for "the starter to reveal himself."

In 2007 we lost some games where DA looked pretty decent and won some games where he looked awful... It's not about wins and losses, it's about the coaching staff judging Quinn during practice, the game and on film... they are the ones who know if a better option was open downfield, they are the ones who know whether it was Quinns fault or the WRs fault when a pass goes the wrong direction and gets picked, they are the ones who know whether Quinn made the right audible or not.... they are the ones who know exactly what Quinn was SUPPOSED to do... whether it worked out or not is not always up to him...

Its sad that Tim Couch is the only QB to play more than 2 full seasons as a starter since the return..

I think if Quinn has that experience, he will be a HECK of a QB for the Browns.. and things will change in Cleveland.

Nah... You can't decide about a QB after only nine starts (3 last season + your proposed Week 6 evaluation). DA had 27 starts under his belt and he wasn't able to seize the job for himself.

I'm not convinced BQ is going to be able to do that either, but I think we need to see what he does over the next 15 games (if the right side of our OL doesn't land him on the IR list first) before we make any determination about him. If he doesn't show some tangible promise of being "The Guy" by the end of the season, then I believe we'll be looking for a new franchise QB and we'll be deciding which of these two (if either of them) we should hang on to as a placeholder/backup until the new guy is ready.

Here's something to chew on.

Given what I saw this weekend, the second half of our schedule could be a cake walk. However, the first part could be brutal beyond Denver (who we must beat as they looked horrible).

Denver....looked bad, very bad.

@Baltimore ......tough game as the D looked primed. Will be hard to evaluate our O against them. You can do it, but understand like Minnie this is a tough D.

v. Cincy.......better beat them.....looked like Denver, but not as lucky.

@Buffalo.......Looked very good against the Pats. Who knows if it's b/c the Pats are not as good as everyone thinks or the Bills are that much better than last year or if it's just one game and who's to say?

@Pitt....Tough game.

v. GB..............The D could be ferocious.

@Chi..........D looked pretty good, but how will losing Urlacher affect them?

bye....I'll count it as a win!

v. Bal.......tough D

@Detroit........looks bad once again. Could be an easy game.

@Cincy......see above

v. SD..........Hard to tell. Usually good, but last night they did not look that great. Let's say 15th ranked D at this point as a wild guess. This would be a good one to evaluate a QB.

v. Pitt ......see above

@KC.................wow, a christmas gift. They looked bad.

v. Oak..........actually looked GREAT on D, and Seymour was a beast......but it's the Raiders so they will probably implode by then.

v. Jax.............did not look good.


So I hope Brady gets to play all year baring anything crazy. He should grow against some stout Defenses and isn't that the point really? I want to win as badly as anyone but experience is hard to replace. So if he starts badly against some good teams, I hope we let him snack on the cupcakes at the end of the year.

JMO.

i don't know what part "He said that before training camp" is referring to but the only place that would that reference make sense is the "starter will reveal himself" line and no, he's said that throughout training camp as late as the 3rd preseason game.

there is no throwing it out the window. face it, no one won the qb comp. that's evidenced in that a starter is normally named by the 3rd preseason game and that never happened.

True enough... problem is, however, if you're right, that doesn't say a whole lot about either QB, does it.

We needed this QB thread. It's been long overdue.

But hypocritically speaking...

The record won't enter into it, it will be much more about how BQ progresses... if he's not injured in the mean time, that is.

If he is consistently awful and doesn't show improvement, then maybe you consider things. When that will be, who knows?

BQ doesn't have a lot of experience though, no matter how long he's been in the NFL. Quarterbacks usually take time to get better and frankly it's ridiculous that some folks want to kick him out the door already.

DA went 10-5, and put up CRAZY points and people were ready to kick him out the door when we didn't make the playoffs---then the next year he was pretty much a lameduck.

So now we are on to Brady and some posters give him a year--some say two years.

Regardless, I am not sure what a QB has to do to keep the Cleveland fans in his corner.

you won't get much of an argument from me about DA... he's terrific/terrible, a rather unique QB.
I just think Quinn needs a little time.... we won't know how it'll play out until it happens. If he doesn't improve, it might be sooner than we think, too. Who knows, really?
It feels like I've said the above comments 105 times since January.

Then why didn't 10-5 work for DA?

People wanted him GONE after that season!!!

So I guess its playoffs or trade 'em?

people wanted him gone because there were rumors we could get a 1st and 3rd round draft pick for him and we had a guy that many people thought could replace him in Quinn.

coupled with the fact he imploded a bit down the stretch and many thought teams had figured him out....many (including me) wanted to sell high on him especially since our defense still had holes we could fill with those picks.

now, we will never know if we could have gotten a 1st and 3rd for him....we did end up going the conservative route of bringing him back....it seemed like teams had figured him out, we had a bunch of injuries, our season derailed, and ew fired our FO and coach.

despite all that....if DA outplayed Quinn, then he would have been the starting QB because Mangini has no loyalty to Quinn and he needs to play whoever he thinks gives us the best chance to win. i really don't think he cares what fans or the media thikn of him....so it is what it is.

Here is my take, I personally believe barring a major diaster on Quinn's part...he gets "atleast" 4 to 5 more games without having to worry too much...as long as he improves somewhat.

If you watched Mangini's Press Conference(the one right after the game) he was extremely agitated when Quinn's turnovers were brought up..the man was genuinely ticked off big time.

Unlike Romoe, if Mangini is thinking about a change, he "will not" say one word to the media..this will be kept to himself...rest assured you can believe Mangini was thinking about pulling Quinn...IMO the only reason he didn't is because one AP got that long run for a TD that put the game out of reach, there was no point in doing so.

Denver and the other teams will crowd the LOS and force Brady to beat them...if you watch the 2nd half of the vikings game, they did the same thing the Bills did to Quinn last year...they got a clue and crowded the LOS and force Brady to beat them deep...he failed...

Quinn only threw maybe 3 passes max beyond the chains...why throw a 2 yard pass? on EVERY 3rd down he did not throw the ball to the marker or past it...in the nfl you won't pick up 1st downs doing that very often.

I personally saw what I expected out of Quinn....a smart weak armed QB that doesn't have the arm to beat an NFL Defense...his arm strength was only half the equation...his accuracy beyond 10 yards is God Awful...it was God awful at Notre Dame, and is still god Awful 3 years later.

The kid showed no fundamental accuracy on a simple high school 10 yard pass...thats unacceptable.

If Quinn completely blows it on sunday against Denver IE shows terrible accuracy, turnovers, etc...Mangini may very well get pushed past his breaking point.

Mangini was ticked off in his press conference...Mangini is not one to throw his players under the bus in front of the media...but he was clearly ticked off at Quinn...look at his face and body language when he was asked about Quinn during the press conference.

Mangini "looked down, rubbed his forehead, made a sigh, and if looks could kill someone woulds be dead"

Mangini will not put up with a performace like sunday for very long...he did not draft Quinn..to him the Qb are interchangeable...neither is his guy.....

As long as Quinn shows improvement from game to game, even if we lose, he will be safe, but if he throws up 2 or 3 more performaces in a row like he did sunday...it wouldn't suprise me to see him yanked....

My opinion of Quinn's leash changed greatly after I watched the post-game press conference with Mangini this morning...the guy was mad...he looked like he wanted to explode...he was clam today, this was the day after though, but Mangini is lying if he said he didn't think about pulling Quinn..

if the our D wouldn't have given up that long TD run to AP that put the game out of reach, we just may have seen Anderson last Sunday....but the game was put out of reach, so it would have been pointless....Mangini wouldn't even look at Quinn on the sidelines...his body language spoke volumes to me...he was mad at everybody, but Mangini knows as well as anybody that if we had a QB that could complete a 12 yard pass, we would have beat that Vikings team last Sunday....

How long do you think Bellichik would put up with what we seen at the Qb position yesterday?

Mangini is not Romeo...he won't stand around and tank a season.....I am sure Brady has been told his play was unacceptable and he better shape up...unlike Romeo, or anyone else, just like Bellichik, if Mangini pulls Quinn it will be because its not working out and he wants to win, it won't be for knee jerk reasons.......

Mangini si almost a Bellichik Clone...how long do you think Bellichik would put up with what Brady did on sunday? not for long....expect the same from Mangini

I like Mangini, I think he is a good coach....he will give Brady a fair chance "within reason" and i can totally understand his logic if he yanks him after another performance like sunday

He showed me worse accurancy than any Qb i have seen...even Tim couch was more accurate than that...and thats saying something.....actually Tim couch performed better his rookie year with a worse line and only Kevin Johnson....

it was really the last 5 games (and 3-2 record), but taking those last 7 games you mentioned....no, it wasn't all bad, but there were some signs on the wall of his weakneeses and they seemed to play out last year....


vs. BAL (33-30 CLE win)
24/38 274 yards 0TD 1 INT (1 rushing TD)

analysis: Anderson had a good game. 2 TD drives and 5 FG drives (though Boller set us up on some of those....DA still gets credit for 7 scoring drives)....Pool's INT for TD being the other score.

vs. HOU (27-17 CLE win)
24/35 253yds 2TD 1INT 1FMBL(recovered by CLE)

analysis: 5 scoring drives, 2 tunovers....another good game.

vs. AZ (27-21 CLE loss)
21/41 304yds 2TD, 2INT, 1FMBL (recovered by CLE)

analysis: this was an uneven performance and what ended up being the beginning of the end.....despite all of that, DA got us in position to win the game with Winslow at the end.

vs. NYJ (24-18 CLE win)
16/29 185yds 2TDs 1INT

analysis: despite the numbers being slightly worse, I think he played slightly better in this game (Jets pass defense was much better than AZ's). not good but not horrible either.

vs. BUF (8-0 CLE win)
9/24 137yds 0TD 0INT

analysis: snowstorm game....we passed way too often in this game when Jamal seemed to get any yards he wanted. But that's not on DA's head. moving along.


vs. CIN (19014 CLE loss)
29/48 250yds 2TD 4INT

analsysi: brutal game. he was worse than the numbers even indicate. he handed the Bengals this game.

vs. 49ers (20-7 CLE win)
11/20 152 1TD 1INT

analysis: another bad game....another bad defense he did it against. we won anyway but Cribbs and going against Chris Weinke had more to do with that than DA. Then, Indy pulls it's starters and we miss out on the playoffs.

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I swear I've seen the exact same posts written about Couch, Holcomb, McCown, Frye, Anderson, etc., etc., etc.

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That's because it's a fansite, Phil. Half of the posters will promote their favorites through agendas, and the other half are just looking for something to talk about.

It's all good... even if it does feel like deja vu every year. There's something kinda comforting in consistency.....

j/c

At this juncture, I think it's beyond clear to anyone with half of a brain that DA is far superior to BQ.

From there, the question is -- is DA any good, or do we not have a QB?

I lean heavily towards we don't have a QB...but I wonder how long we'll let the Frye II experiment linger.