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I''ve stopped responding to these ridiculous remarks in this thread...they'll just keep popping up. 
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/18/09 02:17 PM.
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This is what I don't understand. DA played all of 2007, and most of 2008. He did really good in the first 10 or so games of 2007. But the last few weeks of '07, and most of '08 he didn't do so well. He played himself out of the position in '08. In comes Quinn.
So. Why is Quinn only allowed 6 weeks to prove something, when DA got a season and a half?
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Well this is fanspeak..not anything Mangini has said..fans expect Quinn to be ready to go(although instant success will not come)..but it's only been the opener..
There are things I expect him to already be better at than DA...FOR ME IT DOESN'T TAKE long..after about 6 games I can get a feel for a player...and what I should see is a steady progression ..
I think for some others they want to see this spectacular performance or he's a bust..
The reality is BQ has this year to prove himself ..just like DA had a full year...and more..27 games..
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I think its because Anderson didnt do as horribly as most think.
We still won games at the end of 07...i think that the Cincy game is too fresh in everyone's mind. Thats a game throwing wasnt going to be successful but we did it anyway. But...But...in 08, despite having a concussion in the preseason he still threw 9 TDs and 8 INTs and had a streak of 181 throws without an INT...which i thinks was a record for the Browns...or was approaching it. Either way...thats a long long streak. Which for a guy who's big knock was throwing INTs that is a superb streak.
I really dont think he played his way out of the position.
But...to answer why it seems like Quinn only deserves 6 or so weeks, is because he was pro ready when he entered the league. Maybe that sounds like a crutch argument...but if youre pro ready...you should succeed right away. Matt Ryan last year was the most pro ready QB too...and he did great. But he was pro ready...and QBs that get years to learn the speed of the game and the nuances of the NFL dont get the luxury of years to learn. Do you think that if Tom Brady, Tony Romo, even Matt Cassel, or any other QB that entered the NFL 3 or more years before they began starting had the luxury of a year or more to produce? No. And thats the way it should be. Produce or go away. If youre a rookie starter you get a year to learn. but Quinn is not. If Carson Palmer didnt do well in his first year as a starter they wouldve re-sent him back to the bench. And it goes that way with QBs that dont start when they enter the league. If Cassel wouldve flopped last year he'da been benched. Thats the way it goes in the NFL. If youre in the league, and you're a player thats been in the league...When you go in...you do well, or you dont stay in the league. Josh McCown is gone because he never could keep himself afloat as a starter.
Quinn just doesnt get the luxury of a year of improving because he's already had 2.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
But...But...in 08, despite having a concussion in the preseason he still threw 9 TDs and 8 INTs and had a streak of 181 throws without an INT...which i thinks was a record for the Browns...or was approaching it.
Every quarterback in the history of the game was approaching it except for the all time leader.
DA needed another 127 to tie that record...
Most Consecutive Passes Attempted, None Intercepted
308 Bernie Kosar, Cleveland, 1990-91
That's in the history of the NFL.
NFL.com
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Quote:
This is what I don't understand. DA played all of 2007, and most of 2008. He did really good in the first 10 or so games of 2007. But the last few weeks of '07, and most of '08 he didn't do so well. He played himself out of the position in '08. In comes Quinn.
So. Why is Quinn only allowed 6 weeks to prove something, when DA got a season and a half?
It's this part, in particular, that really matters: "But the last few weeks of '07, and most of '08 he didn't do so well. He played himself out of the position in '08. In comes Quinn."
here's the deal: It's just plain not as simple as you make it sound. This is what drives me crazy about the "We know what we have in DA" crowd.
It seems like the people who are really against DA *always* leave out a HUGE piece of the story: The part where *the rest of the team quit in late 2007 and all of 2008, thus making it 10 times harder for the QB to be effective*. These people don't SEE the fact that Edwards, Steptoe, and Winslow dropped a TON of passes between the three of them. They only see the completion percentage or INT stats. I watched every one of those games and do you realize that a LOT of those dropped passes were either for first downs or long gains? A couple (at least) of the ones to BE were sure TDs. Some of those dropped passes could have kept drives alive and may well have been the difference between a W and an L- or at least the ability to stay in a game. But if you don't like DA, you choose not to remember any of that and just decide that he can't throw.
And none of that is even to mention having starting offensive players out for long periods of time, poor play calling, no discipline, penalties galore marching us backwards at all the most inopportune times, an anemic running game, etc. This is what caused the Browns to be losers in 2008- not Derek Anderson's skills, or lack thereof, at the QB position. If the guy had ANY freakin' help last year, things would have gone better.
Don't get me wrong- I sure as hell am not saying Anderson is (anywhere near) a perfect QB. He, like any other QB, makes mistakes and will have a bad game. But his bad reputation from the "we've seen DA" crowd is way exaggerated and at least partially unfounded.
And btw, "in comes Quinn" happened because Mangini bowed to public (and probably owner-induced) pressure. Not because Quinn was behind through most of TC and didn't do much to set himself apart in the preseason. Mangini is smart enough to know that DA has more talent and is definitely going to excel over Quinn if given a surrounding cast that can actually do their job... but the public (and probably Lerner) screamed so loud that the guy didn't want to get run out of town before the first game, so he folded and started Mr. Popularity Contest.
My view is that, based on the fact that Anderson *has* proven he *can be very good*, and that he's the incumbent, he deserved the opportunity to see what he can do with some new talent, a new system, a new coach, and a new OC. Everyone wants to claim "we know what we have with Anderson"- and I agree, we know what we have with Anderson under the old, softy coach, lame OC, idiot low-IQ players with greased gloves, a boatload of starters out with injuries, and a turnstile defense. I think, based on 2007 ALONE, he deserved a look with the new crew in place.
Oh well. All this means is that Quinn is gonna get the same treatment.
Bottom line: As much as some people want to conveniently sum it all up as "DA can't throw short or make decisions or read defenses", they're all lying to themselves and know damn well that there was a whole lot more to it than that- and that a lot of the stuff that landed on DA was just as much, if not more, the faults of teammates who didn't have their acts together.
Of course the funny part now is that all the Quinn fans who rejected any of the above reasons for DA going south are using the exact same reasoning for Quinn's poor play this past Sunday. Hilarious.
The Cleveland Browns: The only team who puts a picture of a hat on their hats.
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j/c
I must admit, I wish we had a franchise QB and none of this questioning about this position was going on. The fact is, we don't at this time and the questions as to who should lead our offense linger.
Sunday will be here soon enough and we'll see Quinn in action again and his actions will further support either one side or the other. Now the devout lovers/haters won't be swayed by this weekend activities to any great degree but those sensible enough to weight the pros/cons by merit should get a better idea.
I hope the guy succeeds and has a terrific outing, we need someone to rally behind, the team needs someone to rally behind. If by chance he's not the guy, it's going to be a long season and these ridiculous threads will continue ad nauseum. Please BQ, excel at your job!
#GMSTRONG
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This crap will never stop......when DA won ten games and played in the pro bowl, most wanted to trade him. Why any QB would ever want to play here is beyond me. "Greatest fanbase"? Not for our QB, no matter who he's been. This debate has be come a debacle. Where the heck is that guy beating the dead horse? 
#gmstrong
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The last REAL QB we had was Bernie.... 
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Quote:
The last REAL QB we had was Bernie....
Who threw to picks in the "Drive Game" that directly led to Denver points. Bernie choked...
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Quote:
This crap will never stop......when DA won ten games and played in the pro bowl, most wanted to trade him. Why any QB would ever want to play here is beyond me. "Greatest fanbase"? Not for our QB, no matter who he's been.
This debate has be come a debacle. Where the heck is that guy beating the dead horse?
If Quinn has three or four bad games a lot of the fans will be calling for his head and wanting to draft yet another QB. The fans of the Browns no nothing about patience. Yes we are tired of losing but changing everything constantly only turns into more losing..
#gmstrong
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Quote:
The last REAL QB we had was Jeff Garcia
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Quote:
Quote:
This crap will never stop......when DA won ten games and played in the pro bowl, most wanted to trade him. Why any QB would ever want to play here is beyond me. "Greatest fanbase"? Not for our QB, no matter who he's been.
This debate has be come a debacle. Where the heck is that guy beating the dead horse?
If Quinn has three or four bad games a lot of the fans will be calling for his head and wanting to draft yet another QB. The fans of the Browns no nothing about patience. Yes we are tired of losing but changing everything constantly only turns into more losing..
Even patience has failed.
Tim Couch got what...........four or five years?
Romeo Crennel got what.......four years?
Patience only works with good people, and Couch and Crennel weren't good at what they did. All the patience in the world wouldn't have helped them.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That's one of my favorite lines, the hallway one. Oh well with the waitress. I guess no one scored last week.
By the way next time you see Shep could you ask him if I could borrow his condescension? I'm going to a high-end wine tasting next week and need to act snooty.
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Quote:
By the way next time you see Shep could you ask him if I could borrow his condescension? I'm going to a high-end wine tasting next week and need to act snooty.
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Quote:
That's one of my favorite lines, the hallway one. Oh well with the waitress. I guess no one scored last week.
By the way next time you see Shep could you ask him if I could borrow his condescension? I'm going to a high-end wine tasting next week and need to act snooty.
i hope to find time to catch up with him soon. I'll make a point of telling him how condesending he is. 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Even patience has failed.
So if patience is not what is needed (which by the way you have preached and I hated for the last few years) tell us the new Toad philosophy is for success?
Quote:
Tim Couch got what...........four or five years?
You have ragged on Tim Couch for what 6 to 7 years and he is still to this day the only quarterback to help us get to a playoff game. You become ridiculous on this point realizing that your smart enough to realize that he got the crap beat out of him with a team that had a lot less talent than this team has. Be a huge man and admit it!
All the sudden patience with you has become defined by 2 years of basicly riding the bench and 3 healthy starts and you are ready to condemn Quinn after this. I am shocked 
GIVE THE KID A CHANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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I should not respond to this because it looks to be the work of a mad man. OK, I comvincted myself! 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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more clicking and thinking.
Looking back at last week. Was our poor playcalling Daboll's mistake? I noticed that Quinn audibled a lot. Did he turn the play calls into bad plays? Did he make these calls that got him to dump the ball off so easily and uninspiringly?
Thats something I'm definitely going to look at this week. Seeing what Quinn is audibling into and if its working.
Quinn is a noted cerebral QB...I want to see if his audibles are effective. Because its one thing to change the play...its another to change the play into an effective play.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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From what I can tell, his run audibles were the only bright spot in his miserable performance.
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It's now fuzzy, but I seem to recall that many of his audibles were the right adjustments. They didn't always work, and sometimes he couldn't get the ball where it needed to be, but I thought he made some smart calls.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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"What are you doing here then? Most everything posted on here is personal beliefs."
yeah...ain't it a shame, and why I don't post in the supposed "PURE FOOTBALL" as much as I should. The more technical and football I post - the more I actually get scolded by posters for being pompous and I just refuse to dummy down my posts.
I saw a NEW poster...if not new then I was mistaken and don't know a ghost when I see one.
But its a very new poster...maybe he/she actually knows their football and can be a good poster???
So they start - mind you START with.. "Personally, I believe that even with more time BQ would not be able to connect with anyone farther than 5 yards down field."
Which is just NONSENSE and the said poster is basing on this PERSONAL view to be HIS FACT...for the following post that he made. Which I didn't read, it could have been the best post ever but if its predicated on that garbage as FACT...
envy nobody....No big deal. Ya got a choice to make...be a good poster with sound football or join the majority of what I've been reading lately...a lot of Personal Garbage surrounded by no football.
I'm sure you got your reasons....make them known but for me...I prefer PURE FOOTBALL...once upon a time the PERSONAL GARBAGE was posted in Tailgate. Now somehow its been accepted as Pure Football.
Sorry for being Old timer and hoping for the board dynamics that once made this the best board...ANYWHERE, including the 31 other teams.
JMHDisappointment 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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one more clicking thought...EO nrtu, also, good post, very true.
Kevin Kolb is starting today...He has been in the league as long as Quinn. When he starts today...his first career start, its a put up or shut up game for him. Already. his very first start.
I only mention this because I think that Brady Quinn has to begin producing and begin producing now. Not in 3 weeks, not in 8 weeks, not in 12 weeks. He has to start producing now....he doesnt have to be perfect of course...but he has to produce. Period.
We've a guy in the wings who has produced. Not as well as many on here would like...but has produced, and has produced wins. Quinn has to produce starting today.
He had a week to get the jitters out...and a week to absorb the whole "youve just been given the franchise" and take the whole situation in...and as a professional its time for him to go out and perform. Kevin Kolb has a guy behind him who has produced in this league...and if he doesnt show he can do it...he will be replaced. I think that is a situation that we should have here.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
The more technical and football I post - the more I actually get scolded by posters for being pompous and I just refuse to dummy down my posts.
Just remember, its often not what you say, but how you say it. You're one of the more technically knowledgeable people around here...when you post to inform it's typically very insightful and useful. It's when you post to exhibit an air of superiority it can come across as condescending or abrasive.
I've been around this board for a long time now, and the old one before that. You used to be one of my favorite posters...informative, upbeat, generally unbiased. Somewhere that seemed to change, for whatever reason. Personally, I'd love to see you return to the poster of old. But this isn't meant as a persona affront; its all just my observation and opinion...take it for what its worth.
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"It's when you post to exhibit an air of superiority it can come across as condescending or abrasive."
Thanks...in my senior moment, those were the words I was trying to remember but could only come up with the lame "pompous" one 
I don't post to EXHIBIT squadoosh.... I post what I know and what I can describe.
Its when others take it personal and insulting all of a sudden it becomes - (what you said) if its what those same people are viewing as in OPINION...oddly it ain't all that it is... "You're one of the more technically knowledgeable people around here."
Actually I'm more consistent then you give me credit for...the rest falls under - beauty (or in some cases the UGLY) is in the eye of the beholder.
I can try to change...please bring it to my attention the next time I'm in that "UGLY" category and why. And how can I expound on my "BEAUTY" part in that same communication...If you can do so, I'd like to use you as my Ghost Writer...
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Not intentionally...poor choice of words on my part. Just the sometimes overzealous defense of our ideas and opinions that so many of us can be guilty of here.
But I digress. Here's to hoping BQ can show us something to get excited about today.
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Quote:
Actually I'm more consistent then you give me credit for...
He's actually right, Eo. There's a lot of Vers in you, in that you can get very "ugly" without provacation. In fact, you may have the most "if you don't see what I'm saying, you clearly don't know anything about football" posts in this history of the boards
Now before you turn around and point the finger at me as being a hypocrite, just remember: I don't deny what I am, therefore I cannot be a hypocrite. Just ask Otto
You're smart and insightful but can be an old burlap sack as well. Adam is paying you a compliment while simultaneously begging you to tone down the attitude.
I'll make you a deal from one egomaniac to another: If you get out of line, I'll check you, and you can do the same. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I see Stafford is 6-8 with a TD and an int. against that Minnesota D that Quinn couldn't muster anything against.. Oh by the way it is Staffords second game as a pro.. on a team that didn't win a game last year. Yeah, Eo..your posts have turned from informative to opinion based and know it all filled with built in excuses for what you are wrong about. JMHO
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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j/c Quote:
About Brady Quinn ...
1. Why did 11 of Quinn’s 35 passes go to the tight end, and seven more to slot receiver Matt Furrey? While the family and friends of tight end Robert Royal (former Ravens coach Brian Billick called him “Royal Roberts” on TV during the game) love this offense, it’s not what the Browns have in mind. Quinn was racing through his progressions too fast, dumping the ball off to the tight end or slot receiver before it was necessary.
2. As the Browns studied films, they saw some receivers were open but Quinn wasn’t patient enough to get him the ball. They are stressing that Quinn look just a little longer down field.
3. For the record, Braylon Edwards indeed broke the wrong way on the interception. Even more importantly, the Browns simply want Edwards to take more care running all his patterns, and this certainly will help Quinn. The Browns struggled with no-huddle offense last week, but they believe Quinn can run it well at certain points in the game. They don’t plan to give up on it.
4. As the new coaching staff studied tapes of Quinn from last season, they saw two things that had to changed: A) He ran out of the pocket too quickly to avoid the rush. B) Too often, he threw off his back foot (meaning he was off-balance), and even jumped a few times as he threw. The result was poor accuracy. It’s why he completed only 54 percent (31-of-57) of his passes between 1-10 yards in 2008. The NFL average is 68 percent. In the Minnesota game, Quinn was 13-of-20 (65 percent), so there was an improvement.
5. While he had only one pass thrown to him and caught it for 18 yards, rookie Mohamed Massaquoi looked solid running routes. He was on the field for 15 snaps against the Vikings and will probably get more playing time in Denver. It is critical for Quinn to connect with a receiver so that each has a special sense of what the other is thinking — be it Joshua Cribbs, Edwards or Massaquoi. That will take away some of the fixation of throwing to the tight end.
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2009/09/terrys_talkin_about_brady_quin.html
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That's very telling information, eliminating many of the excuses made on Quinn's behalf.
However:
Quote:
2. As the Browns studied films, they saw some receivers were open but Quinn wasn’t patient enough to get him the ball. They are stressing that Quinn look just a little longer down field.
That's exactly the kind of thing that a young QB is going to struggle with. I don't fault a young QB for making those kinds of mistakes. I fully expect that from him, and would even expect some of that from Anderson, though his problems are kinda the opposite.
I can live with Quinn learning to be patient because he's afraid. That's natural. My biggest question about Quinn is primarily one thing: Accuracy.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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idk toad...
While i dont necessarily disagree with that. When the QB talk was Anderson v Frye...I liked that Anderson was more likely to wing it in there...because its a lot easier to learn what throws you shouldnt throw versus learning what throws you should throw that you dont. Its a quicker learning curve.
Because if you continue to not throw a ball...continue to not take that chance...how are you going to learn when to take that chance...i think its better to make the decision and be wrong, and learn...ok thats not one i can throw...rather than...should i have thrown that? ehhhhh....
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I also request that you keep me in line.
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I wouldn't say I prefer one mistake to another, but rather what Quinn is doing with checking down too quickly is what I'd expect from most young QB's, especially one that doesn't have a Matt Ryan arm. Therefore I'm accepting of that kind of thing.
Now, to the angle you're coming from, I prefer he take the checkdowns and not force throws by standing in the pocket. That brings bad INT's into the game as well as fumbles because he doesn't bail on the pressure. In that manner, the team can stay in games, because we all know percentages that say just how often a team that loses the turnover battle loses the game.
Having said all that, I don't give Quinn the kind of time to learn that I would a rookie QB. He needs to be making strides every couple of weeks, not every month.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I just worry about the progression of his checkdowns with the state of the right side of our line.
Hopefully he won't become "Timid" or develop Charlie Frye disease. Hopefully Denver will give him enough opportunity to become comfortable and get a helpful running game going.
I'm waiting for him to establish a rhythm in a certain game and then I expect him to proceed from there.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,525
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,525 |
On another note, I am REALLY worried about his decision-making on third down. It doesn't seem that hard to know when it's 3rd and 8, that you have to get more than 8 yards...
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Well he has shown very low improvement, which leaves me with no hope.
Then again, when Cribbs is your 2nd WR...
you had a good run Hank.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 327
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 327 |
i will agree with that. I did notice that the offense is chewing up more clock to help the defense a little but that is a small conssesion.
this team needs help, the RT is getting burned regularly, we don't have a no.2 WR and our D has no pass rush unless we bring 7 rushers.
DA wouldn't be doing well either.
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,177 |
Wanna blame it all on Quinn fair enough....he deserves alot of blame. The real reason we suck is because we are far and above...I mean FAR AND ABOVE. The worst coached and run franchise in the NFL. We are so far beyond the Raiders and Lions...this team will be fortunate to win a game at this pace.
We have no talent, we had the worst possible draft, wasting 3 picks on Robo, MoMass and Vekune, when none of the 3 will ever be more that a backup at this level.
Three more years of losing and a new coach, hopefully Randy is dead or sold the team and someone with an ounce of brain hires a coach. I cant take more losing, and it only gets worse and worse, the sheer stupidity and incompetence at the NFL level is staggering for this team. I really believed nobody could be worse than RAC, I was dead wrong.
Gonna take alot of beer to get thought a 1-15 0-16 season, cuz its coming.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109 |
You are officially the worst poster I have ever seen.
You wanna be mad about this game? Go for it. I am. I'm beyond furious. Games like this make me wonder why I'm a Browns fan. I have never seen a good team, and tomorrow I'm gonna get all kinds of crap at school about this.
But to say Robo, MoMass, and Veikune are all busts is laughable. They're ROOKIES!!! Rookies typically don't do that great, especially second rounders.
I can see that this is a rebuilding year. Mangini and co knew we wouldn't be good this season.
Just draft Sam Bradford.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 |
At least Malauga is starting for Cincy. Making tackles--forcing fumbles.
The guys we took OVER him DON'T even see the field!!!
Mack is Screwing up snap after snap.
Its a bad bad thing.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Quinn talk part 2
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