DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Time to Start Derek Anderson?

I agree with you and disagree with you...

I agree that our OL and running game are a large part of the problem. But ya know whats one way to minimize this problem? Not hold the ball...and throw it downfield so that the defense has to take men out of the box.

Yes the OL needs improvement and yea we definitely need better RBs...but the difference between us being competitive and being crushed 2 weeks in a row (in the 2nd half especially, being outscored 38-7) i think is minimizing 3 problems we have. We can do that simply by throwing the ball downfield quickly.

Z

Our pass catchers arent that terrible.
Mike Furrey...as we saw in the preseason is a JoeJ player...is he as fast? no, but who cares, he sits down in a zone better than any WR weve had not named JoeJ. We saw this very much in the preseason, and its been seen in Detroit that he does the same.
Braylon is still Braylon and he has been catching passes...
MoMass goes over the middle which is something we've not had since KJ
Cribbs is a slasher which we also havent had...
I'll admit, our guys havent been used to their fullest abilities...its possible that if wed just try to throw downfield, maybe we'd see it.

Our OL...is just as solid on the left side. If not better...

Alex Mack and Hank Fraley...this is a comparison that i find the most difficult to make. I think that Mack has more ability (barring a shotgun snap or 2) but he lacks more in the mental aspect (but lets remember Nick Mangold...he wasnt the most stout his rookie year either). on the right side...Pork Chop is no comparison to Tucker...Tucker handles him hands down. but...Shaffer and St Clair arent as far off as you think. St Clair...as ive noticed, will not get bull rushed. He hasnt been beaten by a bull rush yet. What he has been beaten is by quick guys that get by him with speed. There is a way to handle that, and that is to use a WR or RB to chip off on him before running their route.

People talk about our OL as a travesty. Our left side is stout. Our right side...is lacking only in the guard spot...and Pork Chop will be fine. St Clair...just needs some help on speed guys...which is easy...One way, again get the ball out quicker. the other...chip on the right side with RBs and TEs...and suddenly our OL looks fine.

for RBs...im willing to think that Jamal Lewis is better now than he was in 07...he is healthy for the first time in the last 4 years (yea he missed practice today and thats concerning, but that hasnt been a problem the last 2 weeks). James Davis > Jason Wright...Jerome Harrison = Jerome Harrison...

I really...truly...personally...honestly think, that this team would look infinitely better getting the ball out quicker and downfield.


to switch gears...the one thing that Quinn has over DA...the ONE thing...is that when he throws the ball (with 2 exceptions) that when BQ throws the ball, its in a place where the defense cant catch it. Anderson will squeeze the ball where anyone can catch it...but Quinn will throw it where if his guy cant catch it...no one will.


Going back to the Colts as a comparison.

Yes they did tailor the offense to Peyton and they became infinitely better in year 2. But...Peyton was a guy that from the moment he stepped into Indy (without a holdout) that he was going to be the guy...and he was given the keys to the franchise. also...they only lost 3 games all season by more than 14 and beat the 12-4 Jets. but...do you think that if peyton held out, and had to compete with Jim Harbaugh, Kelly Holcomb, and Paul Justin that he wouldnt have still clearly separated himself from the rest? of course he wouldve.

I dont doubt that if we were to take the next few years and tailor our team to fit Brady Quinn, we'd end up with a great QB...but we need a right side to our OL, a RB, and according to many on here...3 new WRs...and a pass catching TE (because i promise Quinn wont win without one). Theres no way that happens in 1 year. or 2. Itll take much longer.

And...this is for a QB, that to this point, has showed us nothing. In 3 years...hasnt shown us a glimmer of hope. Unless you wanna call his 12-16 performance in a surprise start in the preseason v. Chicago his rookie year. Thats it.

If Manning hadnt shown anything in that first year...Indy would still be bad. but theyre not because their QB threw 26 TDs in that year...Brady is on pace for 8.

Quote:

---

Except Seth McKinney was our starting RG in 07 until he got hurt. What's he up to now? What's Shaffer up to now?

---

Tuck rotated in and out with Seth, then Tuck took over that spot. It doesnt matter where they are now, we are talking about 2007, because there are people trying to pawn the fact that this team is like it was in 2007, and DA is gonna come in and light it up with no WR's, TE, or running game.

Not to mention a right side of the OL that is the worst we've since 99.

We had a Probowl TE, a complete OL, a healthy, younger, different Jamal Lewis. We actually had a receiver opposite of Braylon that could do something. Not to mention, again, we had a cupcake schedule. We had 3 great weapons on offense to compliment a good running game, we had outstanding protection. To top it off, a QB and OC that nobody had film on....against dirt barrel defenses....what the heck do you think would happen?

Get another even decent WR, does someone wanna make the case that Cribbs has been a good number 2 this year? What about Robert Royal being even in KW2's ballpark as a receiver? Get another reciever, get a running back that isnt 38 years old, who can run outside and inside, or a tandem than can do it. Get someone who has a pulse on the right side of the OL. Someone wanna tell me that Jamal is even 50% of what he was in 2007, 3 years younger?

Then people can come on here and tell me that "its alot like 2007", cuz right now you cant even compare the 2 lineups.

2007:

RB: Jamal Lewis
WR: BE, JJ, Carter, Cribbs
TE: KW2, Heiden
LT: Thomas
LG. Steiny
C: Fraley
RG: Mck/Tuck
RT: Shaff

2009:

RB: Jamal Lewis
WR: BE, Cribbs, Furrey, MoMass
TE: Royal, Heiden
LT: Thomas
LG: Steiny
C: Mack
RG: Womack
RT: St. Claire

Not that those bold areas would have anything to with how well an offense performs...not even counting to difference in Jamal today,with the Jamal in 2007 at this time.

Somebody wanna compare KW2 to Royal, or I know Cribbs to the 2007 JJ.....


The whole dang point that so many willing ignorant fans just cant get through their head right now is that QB is not gonna make a big impact on this team right now. Might DA be better? Maybe...Maybe not. We owe it to ourselves to see what Quinn has, to this point its been bad....but its been 5, five, FIVE, 5 games. The only franchise stupid enough to give up on a QB with these conditions after 5 games would probably be the Browns.

Gotta see what Quinn has, doesnt look good, if he fails, maybe DA will come back. We are gonna lose a whole bunch of games this year, no matter who is QB. We've seen what DA can do, lets see what Quinn can do, and if we are gonna be nazi fascist fair, then Quinn gets the season as well. You cant evaluate a player after 5 games, that is just flat out sheer and total stupidity.

Another hilarious argument that certain people keep peddling is that with DA we will get running game going cuz people wont be stacking the box because of the fear of DA's arm.

What about last year? DA was the QB...same running back.......why no running game in 2008?

Jamal averaged 3.6yds last year, and is averaging 3.8yds this year....hhhmmmm. In 2008, with the gun slinger at the helm, Jamal started off the 2008 season with games of 62yds, 38yds, 56yds, 79yds.......looks like this year.

More made up crap....to put everything on the QB....

1. McKinney started the first 8 games of the season. Tucker did not play in the first four games (suspension) and saw rotational duty until McKinney got hurt. We were 5-3 when McKinney was the starting RG. Perhaps you believe that McKinney is head and shoulders above Womack. I don't. Which brings me to...

1b. Womack got hurt in the Denver game and Fraley played RG for most of the game.

2. When it became very evident last season that our sole receiving threat (BE) was not much of one, they didn't have to respect the pass. Obviously in 2007 the pass opened up the run, not vice versa. No pass in 2008 = no rush.

3. 2007 receiving corps vs 2009 receiving corps: Braylon is still there, Cribbs is still there, Furrey has replaced JJ, and MoMass has replaced Tim Carter (who started no games for us and had 117 receiving yards on the season, something I doubt that we miss). The real wild card is, of course, that we don't have a receiving TE of the caliber of Winslow in 2009.

But I do realize that the reason DA was so successful was because there was no film on him or Chud's O. BQ and Daboll don't have that luxury, since they are well documented as NFL QB and OC, respectively, right? Oh, wait...what's good for the goose is good for the gander...

So yeah, this offense really is a lot like the offense of 2007, aside from the TE position, RG position and, most glariingly, the QB.

PS: I'm pretty sure that unless Jamal has perfected time travel, he was two years younger two years ago, not three...

Just Clicking..

in regards to DA making the line look good.. yes.. he does make the line look good.. He gets rid of the ball pretty fast, not allowing the defense to get to him....

Quinn is taking his time with the ball, and as a result... the line looks bad, and he gets sacked... ie Big Ben in Pitt..

You are exactly right. DA is a gunslinger. He gets rid of the ball quickly, but half the time he doesn't know where the ball is going to go. He's prone to turnovers.

Quinn is holding the ball too long causing sacks, and, for whatever reason, is afraid to throw the ball down field. When he has, he been very inaccurate.

So in the grand scheme of things. We are getting the same result no matter who the QB is. The offense has been ranked in the bottom of the league no matter who we have out there. So what's really the point of bickering about who plays?

because one of them has scored when it matters and has made all the throws instead of dinked and dunked. one of them also opens the run game.

Quote:

---

He's prone to turnovers.

---

He's also "prone" to TDs..

I like TDs. They help win games.

As far as turnovers ..... Anderson has 927 pass attempts in his career. He has a total of 40 turnovers. (35 INT and 5 lost fumbles) He turns the ball over, on average, every 23 pass attempts.

Quinn has 163 career pass attempts. He has 4 INTs and 2 lost fumbles. He turns the ball over, on average, every 27 pass attempts.

Anderson has 43 career passing Tds and 3 rushing TDs. He throws a TD pass roughly once every 21.5 pass attempts.

Quinn has 3 passing TDs and no rushing TDs. He throws a TD pass roughly once every 54 pass attempts.

Anderson has 77 plays of 20+ yards. Roughly once every 12 plays he hits a big play.

Quinn has 8 plays of 20+ yards. He hits one roughly once every 20 passes.

It's a small sample size for each guy ... and especially for Quinn ..... but thus far he hasn't been some incredible improvement in any of the categories so many assured us he would be. Quinn has less than 1 TD per start. Anderson averages 1.4 TD passes per game.


When Quinn was drafted, Anderson had 3 career starts. He wasn't some 10 year veteran.

There are the numbers ...... When I look at turnovers vs TDs ...... big plays, and winning games ...... so far it's all in Anderson's favor.

Just to put thing in perspective ...... Quinn is starting year 3. He had 3 starts last year in his 2nd season.

Anderson started 3 games in his 2nd year also. He then started game 2 of his 3rd season following Frye's implosion.

Thus far there is no comparison between the 2 guys.

And to me, this is the most damning thing as far as Quinn is concerned.

It is interesting that when RAC was here Brady seemed to play better than he is now. I feel that Mangini has gotten into Brady' head, and has the kid playing scared. He is too cautious, over thinking things, which prevent him from just playing.

I am hoping that Brady starts to relax a little and not worry so much about pleasing Mangini, the fans or anyone else and just starts playing football. When this happens, I believe, you will start seeing better play from Brady, and hopefully that leads to TD, which leads to wins.

DA is prone to being inconsistant..thats it.
U and dong and all the other DA supporters need to get it through your hard heads something..
Anderson is not really a winner, maybe in 8 years he can have a Rich Gannon type experience where at the end of his career he is serviceable, but that day isn't coming in time to do it for the Browns.
He started out well but none of U are willing to admit that once DC's saw him being a gunslinger, they gameplanned to take his strength away..
No one seems to notice the Pro Bowl was a extension of his regression..

Anyway..You have a bunch of guys who are used to just going out and doing whatever they want, being coached by a guy who needs them to be EXACTLY where they are supposed to be.

But you probably don't know what they say about the best laid plans. The offensive game planning has been poor, and Quinn has not been put in a position to succeed. I am also firmly of the belief that he is playing with the tightest rectum since Wile E. Coyote ate a bag of Alum.

Mangini plans the first two weeks were to play conservative, let the defense keep them in it, and hope to get lucky in the end. I.E. the plan Romeo has rolled out 4 straight years.

Mangini is doing it because he doesn't think he has enough talent to do anything else. Romeo did it because he didn't know to do anything else. I fully expect Mangini to see this week that something else is called for.

I wouldn't say that people who think Anderson is better are hard headed. I understand people fanatasize that Quinn might actually be a good QB, but that's all it is, A Fantasy. I wish he would turn out to be good, but he just doesn't have it. What will be the new excuse after Baltimore pastes the Browns this weekend? Oh I know, Mangini planned it that way because we are going to plan for the Lions until we play them to avoid going 0-16, right? This we have 0 talent is a bunch of crap too. While it's not a ton of talent, there is definately enough here to be the likes of the Broncos. Come on now, you don't have to believe everything you read, then spit it out here as fact.

U did Gamble saying that mess to me..so go back and reread what I said..you'll find I didn't say what you thought U quoted me as saying..

Well looks like I may have been mistaken. No need to get all internet angry here.

Get real..I don't get angry in here..I do get amused at the ridiculous stuff that posted in here..and guess what ..there are hard-headed posters in here..and there are those(few) who want Quinn at all costs..I however... know that DA is not the long term answer and his 27 starts show it..
I'm seeing what Quinn is.
There are some who actually can evalute talent..

LMAO Yeah .. we're all qualified to scout talent ..... that's why we're all working in NFL front offices as we speak .......



Regardless ..... if you look at Quinn vs Anderson you'll find that their careers have takens eerily similar paths. 3 starts each late in their respective 2nd years ..... injury ..... then starting the next season, (Quinn game 1, Anderson game 2)

They each had a year and a half under their belt by the time they started their first game. The only difference is that one guy was a 6th round pick ..... and the other was an "NFL Ready 1st round pick". The problem is that the 6th rounder looked much, much better than the 1st round pick has by any measurement.

That's his schtick man. Don't sweat it. Attack loves Attack. *L* ... he's been even more cranky lately because BQ has stunk up the joint.

Some things to think about:

In our first game in 2007 where we got blown out by the Steelers, there were numerous opinions that we had no OL, no WRs, the playcalling was terrible, JT was a bust, and we basically had no talent. Anderson entered the picture the very next game with the SAME exact team and all of a sudden our OL was one of the best pass blocking in the game (they were actually ranked #1 by ESPN after that season), BE has a record breaking year, JL looks like a stud, Chud is a genius, and our defense - bless their souls - fights their arses off every single week.

The difference was as simple as a QB change.

This talk that the playcalling sucks, the OL is terrible, and there is no one to throw to is complete, fabricated BS used to explain away the poor performance by the QB. That's all it is.

I am not in favor of putting Anderson in over Quinn, but all the excuses get tiring. I don't know why people can't call it like it is. Quinn has sucked. You don't even need to know that much about football to see it.

All units will look better when the QB plays better.

Nope. BQ has learned to fumble bad snaps, get off the field in three downs, missed receivers, failed to see open receivers, learned too hold the ball too long, has chosen to camp in a pocket of sorts (almost too kind that), and thrown for three yards when we need 8, and has mastered the gutless kneeldown play. He can't get out of his own way when blitzed, and is full of snappy explanations. DA had TOO many chances for too long for my taste. Actually, kinda like he never left . . . .

LMAO Yeah .. we're all qualified to scout talent ..... that's why we're all working in NFL front offices as we speak .......

Speak for yourself..I know what I'm looking at ..

They each had a year and a half under their belt by the time they started their first game. The only difference is that one guy was a 6th round pick ..... and the other was an "NFL Ready 1st round pick". The problem is that the 6th rounder looked much, much better than the 1st round pick has by any measurement.

Anyone can make a generalization to fit their point of view..why don't you say what happened to DA in 07..like it hasn't been rehased 1000 times???
Why don't you breakdown his strengths/weaknesses /tendencies??
U guys who desire him throw that stuff out the window..there's a reason he didn't beat Quinn out..and the reality is..if he had improved on his drawbacks, he would be the starter..

.." Yeah .. we're all qualified to scout talent ..... that's why we're all working in NFL front offices as we speak ......."

And the people that the Lerner's have hired since 99 have none such a great Job ? I can name a bunch of posters on " This " board who , year in and year out have posted better drafts .. Shoot throw in the FA as well ..

That's his schtick man. Don't sweat it. Attack loves Attack. *L* ... he's been even more cranky lately because BQ has stunk up the joint.

Only thing I'll defend is the cranky part..U guys don't know me..I don't get cranky in here..but I DO LUV to attack..



This talk that the playcalling sucks, the OL is terrible, and there is no one to throw to is complete, fabricated BS used to explain away the poor performance by the QB. That's all it is.


So then if we go by your thinking , we have the best Oline..the playcalling is superb..and we have a boatload of recievers...am I getting that correct??
We have a putrid right side of a line..playcalling is college level..and we have a ST's player mascurading as a wideout, while we have two rookies rotting away on the bench..
Now this is where I do get amused..U see posts that others say Quinn has failed to impressed..he stunk up the joint, yet you totally ignore it and claim that those same persons have made excuses for him..see it doesn't work that way..it never will with me..

Being an scout, front office assitant, directer of football operations, GM, CEO, President, Owner doesnt mean you know a lick about NFL talent.

Thats proven over and over again......ya think Matt Millen has great eye for talent?

Fans can be right all the time, they can sometimes make alot better decisions than a team does. Taking polls on this board for our draft picks over the years woulda yielded probably several playoffs berths. We wouldnt be in the position we are now....

What proof do you have that Anderson isn't the long term answer? The 10-5 record he had in 2007? Or are you basing it off of 2008 where even Peyton Manning would have looked bad with all the dropped ball? Anderson has not yet peaked. I'll guarantee that if we have to draft another QB that Anderson will flourish somewhere else and Browns fans will be calling for our new QB's head by week 6 of his career. I'm sorry but there is no perfect quarter back out there. Anderson is the answer. What this team really needs is a defense, a number 2 receiver to step up, and a right tackle. This mentioned wont help Quinn because he doesn't know how to anticipate which causes him to hold the ball waaaay to long and is less accurate than Anderson.

Nobody here is a bonafide talent evaluator and that includes you, other wise we would have front office jobs. Everything here is strictly our opinions that means, me, you, and everyone else. Sometimes some of our opinions are right and sometimes they are wrong. I really don't see where you have the credentials to say who can and can't evaluate talent. Prove to me that Anderson doesn't have it. You can't discount his first full season as a starter no matter how hard you try.

You just said hit the nail right on the head. Perfect.

What proof?
Did you not see a combination of 07 and 08?
Even in 07 dude trailed off as defenses adjusted to him..
Man it amazes me how all of you just skip over that.
Manning is Manning and no matter what the cast around him does he will still do the things DA will never come close to..being accurate ,(wow how anyone can think DA is is beyond me) controlling his arm,(thats the bigger one for me) read presnap sets, going through his progressions and being able to adjust..
This is it..DA is what he has been before he came into the league..he has not gotten better..now show me where he has...U and anyone else who wants to keep this going...prove to me where he's improved.. can you do it?

Quote:

---

I'll guarantee that if we have to draft another QB that Anderson will flourish somewhere else and Browns fans will be calling for our new QB's head by week 6 of his career.

---

Where is that gonna be? He was on the open market all off-season, and based on this regimes other moves, they would have taken what they can get.

There is no perfect QB but Anderson has issues that hes had since high school and college, its who he is. He cant read the field and hes not accurate, he cant handle pressure whatsoever. Course the homers dont wana accept that, its BE's fault. He'll never ever be a good NFL QB, because he hasnt improved those areas. It why he was drafted crazy late, a 6'5 230 QB with that arm, drafted that late....inconsistency, innaccurate, cant read the field. Its why he's not starting here, or on anther NFL team....which QB were we getting calls about....the ProBowl QB or the bust?

As attack said, had he improved, he'd have beat Quinn, but he didnt improve.

The stupid thing is how people think that if you dont like DA then you must like Quinn......I wanna see what Quinn has, I dont like him anymore than DA. But it would be monumentally stupid to bench a QB after 5 games with these offensive conditions.

That could have and ending like your DA story, because unlike DA, we dont have a closed book on Quinn....so I have some slight faded hope Quinn might develop through the season.

jc..


We know what we have in DA, and we need to find out what we have in Quinn. Simple as that. DA may win us a few games, but he's not taking us to the playoffs, not with the current offense we have.

So, we play Quinn a bit, see if he improves and settles down, and if not, we know we need a QB next year. At which point I would bet we keep DA as a backup and trade Quinn.

Agree..for anyone wanting to debate show where DA improved from 07 to now...thats all that matters ...put up..

unfortunately... in the NFL.. no one knows the outcome of starting one player over another...

Its the coaches job to figure out who has the best chance to reach that W...

Mangini decided on Quinn... Let's just all hope he is right..

Easy ..answer...show where DA HAS IMPROVED.
I'm gonna keep throwing that question out till someone can actually catch it.
Right now all of U saying that DA hasn't reached his ceiling will drop it.
Oh and being the same age has little to do with anything on the subject.
Can you do it???
Can anyone do it???

ytown... answer me this hypothetical question... there is no right or wrong answer as it is all hypothetical... I just want your opinion...

What do you think would have happened if in .. say week 7 or 8 of 2007, DA had gotten hurt? I mean what if Quinn had come into an offense that was scoring 30+ ppg, rushing for 100 yards a game, had all of the confidence in the world, had BE, KWII, JJ all playing at a pretty high level... had a record above .500...

As opposed to when he did get his chance... a team that was 3-6, had only scored 30 points once in 8 games, had been held to 11 points or less 4 times in 8 games, was riddled with injuries, was just playing out the season to get it over with, fans that were extremely frustrated because they had such high expections, etc...

I'm just curious...