DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Time to Start Derek Anderson?

Attack ..... it seems to me that most 1st time starters at QB in the NFL "tail off" at the end of their first year as a starter.

It is often a combination of defenses adjusting to their tendencies, weather typically getting worse, as well as fatigue setting in.

Take a look at Tom Brady's 1st year as a starter. Brady ended year 1 as a starter (Regular season) with 2 TDs and 5 INTs in his last 5 games.


Matt Ryan threw 3 TDs and 5 INTs in December last year .... his only month with more INTs than TDs.


Joe Flacco had an up and down rookie year with his best month coming in November (9 TDs and 2 INTs) and December seeing him throw 2 TDs and 3 INTs.


I would be willing to bet that most 1st time starters tail off at the end of their 1st season starting. If you can prove otherwise, please feel free to do so.


IIRC, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, and Ben Roethlisburger did as well.

Aaron Rodgers was the rare exception last season.

it seems to me that most 1st time starters at QB in the NFL "tail off" at the end of their first year as a starter.


And what happens the next season?
Do they continue to regress, or do they make adjusments in their game..and improve?
U threw Flacco in there..he was up and down..now what does he look like?
Why didn't DA beat out Brady in preseason?

Based on what he has shown so far ...... he would have flopped.

The reason is this: He's not seeing and making plays when they are available. He is wildly inaccurate thus far. These aren't things that other players change. Sure a good WR might occasionally make a circus catch to create a big play (Like Edwards almost did against Minnesota) but overall the ball needs to be catchable in order to be caught. Quinn, thus far, has not shown an ability to deliver a catchable ball to anyone except the dump off escape valve.

I think that the difference posters have as far as QB opinions go is this:

I personally believe that a successful QB delivers the ball down the field .... creates big plays ..... and dictates to the defense,

Others believe that a successful QB can dink and dunk and "take whatever the defense gives" .... even if the defense is giving 4 yards on 3rd and 10.

I don't consider a game of 65% completions where there are only 2 or 3 3rd down conversions a successful game. I don't consider a game where the QB creates no big plays, no TDs, and looks completely lost on the field to be a success.

People said how smart Quinn is as a QB. Thus far I don't see it ... becaue he doesn't seem to see the big play opportunities laid out before him.

His 2 greatest strengths were supposed to be his football smarts and his accuracy. he seems able to change plays at the line .... and can deliver a very short pass accurately ... but once the ball is snapped, he looks lost, confused, unable to see the plays downfield, and unable to deliver the ball accurately beyond 5-10 yards. His touch has been lacking thus far .... and these are things that were supposed to be his strengths.

I see Charlie Frye Part Deux .... and if he'd been the QB in '07, we'd have returned to Charlie Frye football.

I personally believe that a successful QB delivers the ball down the field .... creates big plays ..... and dictates to the defense,

Others believe that a successful QB can dink and dunk and "take whatever the defense gives" .... even if the defense is giving 4 yards on 3rd and 10.


Who just believes that?
Sounds like more madeup and false labeling..
Anyone who does , doesn't have a good read on football..a successful QB can do it all..he can stretch the field..he can go intermediate and yes he can take what the D gives up and knows how to capitalize on that.

That Derek Anderson improved...

His knocks...he cant read coverages, make pre-snap reads, go through his progressions or control his arm.

One...it was remarked that Derek had improved his short game...This was stated by Crennel, and he improved in throwing screens (cept when Suggs took his one screen pass to the house). I've seen a guy who didnt throw slants, to a guy who threw slants...were they perfect? no, they didnt much allow for YACs, but they often were within the body and catchable balls.

making pre-snap reads...we only really have our preseason this year to see if he did that well because Crennel and co. werent allowing our QBs to audible. About making pre-snap reads about the defense...he was able to go 181 throws and i believe that approaches 190+ dropbacks without a single INT. that sounds like a QB who has improved his presnap reads...especially in a system that doesnt allow the QB to audible.

Controlling his arm is something that he still struggles with. but thats the way gunslingers throw. Has Eli adjusted his arm? Favre? Rivers? did Marino? Marino threw the ball harder than any QB...and ask his WRs...he threw it through everyones chest all the time...so, I dont know if thats something that is a valid criticism. Has he controlled the directions? debatable. I think so though...his early career throws on screens and such outside of the body, and by the end he was throwing balls within peoples body. so ill take it as some improvement.

That includes accuracy. He threw a number of balls outside of receivers bodies...by the end of his stint...he was throwing the ball within the bodies of these receivers...thats not complete improvement, but improvement none the less...

prone to turnovers...dropping back and releasing the ball 181 times without it ending up a turnover is marked improvement for a turnover prone QB.

He was improving...and this preseason...the one thing i noticed more than anything was the playcalling with each QB in. Daboll called very conservative with Quinn in and with Anderson it was very aggressive...I couldnt tell you who that is an indictment of...is it Daboll or Quinn? Was Daboll calling similar plays and Anderson was throwing the ball, and Quinn wasnt? The running plays obviously not.

But for no other reason...doesnt the playcalling alone lend you to go with the guy theyll be more aggressive with?

but...looking at it...DA regressed in terms of completion percentage and TD to INT ratio...however...through the 9 games Anderson started he threw 8 ints in 08...in 07 he threw 16...he was actually on pace to throw LESS ints than in 07.

There is improvement coming from Derek Anderson...what went down was completion percentage (which i find interesting that also he was victimized by more drops)...and had less in receiving talent...and even less in stability.

does that count as improvement?

maybe he'd be a good OC

One...it was remarked that Derek had improved his short game...This was stated by Crennel, and he improved in throwing screens (cept when Suggs took his one screen pass to the house). I've seen a guy who didnt throw slants, to a guy who threw slants...were they perfect? no, they didnt much allow for YACs, but they often were within the body and catchable balls.

Rac said so ..rrriight..he slightlly improved ..did you watch him preseason?
If you did you would have to admit that he looked like the same DA to me.

making pre-snap reads...we only really have our preseason this year to see if he did that well because Crennel and co. werent allowing our QBs to audible.

Presnap reads..that means he's recognizing the blitz/coverage..and knowing where the hot read is..regardless ofwho's callign the plays any QB has to able to do that.


That includes accuracy. He threw a number of balls outside of receivers bodies...by the end of his stint...he was throwing the ball within the bodies of these receivers...thats not complete improvement, but improvement none the less...


No he hasn't improved his control..I watched preseason and he was still throwing those scud missiles..making people become contortionists..

Daboll called very conservative with Quinn in and with Anderson it was very aggressive...I couldnt tell you who that is an indictment of

This is what I mean about people knowing what they're seeing..DA is a down the field QB..Quinn is a intermediate type .. and is more prone to go through his checkdowns..it is that simple..
To me I didn't see much improvement..like I know from seeing , if the defense is playing cover 0, or press/man , DA can have a good game..but once the rotating/cover 2/3's /zones come out he makes mistakes..

Quote:

---

Quinn is a intermediate type

---

Did either guy "beat" the other guy this pre-season?

If Quinn was the man ... why didn't he play better than Anderson?

It seems to me that Mangini determined that a rout win by Anderson would give him the job ..... but anything less would go to Quinn.

We now reap the rewards of that decision. The pre-season was a microcosm of what is happening with Quinn so far. Dink, dunk, nothing explosive ... nothing to make the defense respect or fear the offense ......

Let me ask you one question ..... if you had to stake your reputation forever on whether or not Quinn will succeed in the NFL .... which way would you decide?

Personally, I see Charlie Frye. Do you see something different? If so, what ... and why?

As far as Anderson "not showing it" going nto last year ..... he started out slowly. That's fact. JJ was cut. Stallworth was injured. Braylon Edwards was injured when Stallworth stepped on him.

September saw Anderson throw 3 Tds and 6 INTs.

Brutal by any definition.

October saw Anderson throw 4 TDs and 0 INTs. He then threw 2 TDs against Baltimore, 1 INT ...... and was sat down the next week.



That means that in his last 4 games before losing the starting job Anderson threw 6 Tds and 1 INT. That cost him his job, as the coaches looked for some sort of spark for the team. Did Quinn spark the team? Doubtful given the results.

U have a point to make?...Gotn something to say buddy?No ..don't bother..I watched Brady in college..I know his game..it is not gunslinging 30-55 yds downfield all game.. for anyone whom actually saw him..they know he did throw long..but not all game...he went for a lot 15 -25 yard range and the shorter stuff and had the crappest team around him.. ..want to debate that?

ha, sure. notre dame, besides playing a couple good schools like usc and michigan, their opponents were a collective 50 some wins and 70 some losses. it's pathetic that you need to cite his plays against army and navy to justify what type of game he has, especially when ND fans also considered him a dink and dunker.

keep talking about college. keep acting like you know something. the fact that you were dumb enough to say brady was an "intermediate type" on these boards after the last two weeks, the last few years of preseason play is LAUGHABLE and PATHETIC.

that's all you get.

I agree with you...but isnt that the knock on ALL inexperienced QBs? some pick it up sooner (Sanchez (so far), Ryan, Flacco) and some take a little longer (Eli, Brees) to do it. Reading coverages is something that comes with time...as we're stating with Quinn...but, you do that with experience.

And with Anderson...i think that he has made presnap reads...the evidence that he has been sacked less than any QB in Cleveland since the return is the proof of that...has he made the right decision every time? nope. but when you make a mistake you learn from it. and thats something i think Anderson did. as evidenced by his streak of 181.

Also...i did watch the preseason and again i saw throws within the body. Yea the one to James Davis was high...but it was a catchable ball.
to compare...lets look at the couple slants BQ has thrown to BE this year...both in the dirt...and the couple that DA threw to Edwards in the preseason...one behind him away from the D and one behind him towards the D, still caught but no YACs...both complete, but not perfect. Thats what I saw out of Anderson...ive seen him Airmail those in the past...but he hit em both this time.


I think in terms of criticism...DA is getting the same bad rap as Tony Romo...Romo is getting grilled for losing to the Giants by 3, and getting the "same ol Romo" rants...Yet...I promise any of us would love Romo here. but thats an aside from this post.

Throwing scud missiles this preseason? yup...but thats what he does...Has he turned guys into contortionists? yes. But...I think that for the most part, its a catchable ball. Is it perfect? no...does it lend itself to drops and tipped balls? yup...but, still catchable. and thats...improvement...which is what we've been looking for and saying Anderson wasnt making.

You can easily say that he didnt improve because he still throws hard...
because he still gets balls tipped...
that guys still have to adjust to his balls...
that he still makes mistakes...

But...saying he is what he is isnt true, because he's made improvements and is still young.

Does anyone think Tony Romo is a finished product? is Drew Brees a finished product? Are Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, Jay Cutler, Jamarcus Russel, Matt Cassel, Trent Edwards, Kevin Kolb, Tarvaris Jackson, or even a guy like Carson Palmer is a finished product? No...the resounding answer should be NO....

Derek has improved...maybe not to the point that he's perfect...far from it.

But...his big knocks...are that he cant read defenses or make presnap reads...those come with experience.

One thing I'm not saying, is that Brady Quinn is done. I dont think he is at all...I think he can be a very good QB in the right situation. But...he should be on a team with many of the pieces in place. He should be in a place with a good pass catching TE and a good pass catching RB...Not a place where one needs to build. He should be the final piece, not something to build for. I dont see why anyone would want to build for a game manager. Does anyone want to build a team for a Trent Dilfer? does anyone want to build a team for a John Kitna? look at the franchise QBs in the league. Cutler, Brady, Manning, E Manning, Rivers, Flacco, Sanchez, Stafford, Romo, Roethlisberger...what do they all have in common...They can throw it, and very often they do throw it. and they throw it far.

They dont hold the ball, they make a decision and they go for it right or wrong. Theyre not indecisive...they make decisions and go with it. and if its a mistake they forget it and come back. and every game you see them in, you think they have a chance to win.

This is more of an aside but...
this week agaisnt the Ravens.
When we start Quinn...i dont feel we can keep up with their scoring.
if we had Anderson...i would feel that way.
Maybe i'm wrong. and very likely i am...but...BUT, i think he would take the chances to give us a shot at a W.

Maybe we should play Quinn in the first halfs to keep it close, and then let Anderson come in the 2nd half and try to make plays to win.

This is where people show how little intelligence they really have..and U passed that test..
Show where I listed specific plays..it appears you have a Quinn stuck up your rear end ..
Don't get ticked because you can't evaluate a QB and know nothing about how to..and the one you picked isn't starting..and BTW , WHEN Phil signed DA , I said what type of QB he was a Oregon St..or do U remember that?
College game is still indicative of what he is.
I'm not far off what I said about Brady..only I didn't say complete QB like scouts did..as they compared him to Russell , he'd be the more complete QB.
U like stats and stuff like that..here's one scouting report from SI:



POSITIVES: Nice-sized, strong-armed pocket passer with a great amount of upside. Patient, calm under pressure and buys time for receivers. Gets outside the pocket to give himself a better view of the field. Has a quick, over-the-top delivery.

NEGATIVES: At times stares the primary target down from the get-go. Not averse to forcing the throw into coverage. Makes some head-scratching decisions at times. Not an elusive quarterback who escapes the rush. Marginally accurate throwing on the move.

ANALYSIS: Possessing the size, arm strength and intangibles to be a starter at the next level, Quinn is an incredibly productive college quarterback who translates well to the next level. Comes off a poor senior campaign and needs to refocus on the task at hand.



Kingsteve.. when I say he throws scud missiles..it's not the velocity..it the accuracy on those throws..thats what I mean by controlling his arm..you can throw hard(except on those passes that need touch)but you have to hit your target and not expose him where he gets killed..

i'm going to borrow part of toad's post because he already made the point that you clearly don't get.

toad:

Quote:

---

That's the difference between a guy that looks good in college then falters in the pro's. The windows to throw to in the NFL are so much smaller than they are in college. QB's have to anticipate a player breaking open and already have the ball on the way. Quinn looks like he's waiting, but that clock in his head says he has to get the ball out or he's sacked, so he's dumping it off short. That's why I threw Alex Smith under the bus before he was ever drafted, and why I believed Aaron Rodgers was going to be a good QB: One threw to already open receivers, one knew where to go with the ball and threw when the receivers weren't yet open.

---

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/599198/Main/597781#Post599198

it's hilarious that the same scouting report that you took said nothing about throwing a good ball or hitting a receiver in stride, or making the INTERMEDIATE passes like you so claimed. why don't i go get some scouting reports on kyle boller, alex smith, tim couch, akili smith, matt leinart, vince young, etc etc. i'm sure all those reports said some good things too.

Once more U have dumbspeak..I'm bout to really call U as U are..careful..you just did something stupid..you tried to call me on what I said about Quinn in college yet you foolishly quoted Toad as to what he said about Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers..here's his quote which U posted..

That's why I threw Alex Smith under the bus before he was ever drafted, and why I believed Aaron Rodgers was going to be a good QB: One threw to already open receivers, one knew where to go with the ball and threw when the receivers weren't yet open.


Where did he get his opinion from?
The pro level or did he actually know this from their college days??
See how stupid you've digressed?
Go ahead go dig up all the reports you want..make yourself look dumber than you already have..
You certainly can't disprove what I said..U always slip the noose around your own neck and once more I'm gonna close it tight..

wow, you really have a high opinion of yourself when you think you look smart. here's the point: we have more than 2 years of info on quinn. we've read how he performed in practice. we've seen the preseason games. we've seen the regular season games. there is NO question as to what type of game he has. he is NOT an intermediate passer. you are wrong and if you continue to argue it, you will remain wrong unless some massive light turns on for quinn.

next, reading comprehension helps. your problem is you have such selective hearing that you find some stupid snippet that is irrelevant. the point is, even if quinn looked like all-world in college, that doesn't mean he can successfully complete throws in the pros. it's further why your claim that he has an intermediate game is just plain stoopid.

i don't care who is starting because i want both to succeed but i have no problem showing what a hypocrite you are for all the same crap you've said in the past year. everything you said about DA, you siad quinn would be better and now, he's making you eat your words. keep acting like you know something and accusing me of not being able to "evaluate" qbs. the difference between you and me is i don't claim to evaluate anyone. i simply cite what i see. you, you make it all up in your head.

I don't need to debate Quinn with you..hehe..I will watch and see what he does..



your problem is you have such selective hearing that you find some stupid snippet that is irrelevant.

What U need to do is STOP posting assine stuff...because everything U say is irrelevant..it's just babbling on and on.. I'm not eating any words as of now..I will wait my time..and watch..unlike U..you've already swallowed and passed out of your large intestine the crap you claimed about DA..pretty smelly over there isn't it?

classic attack dawg.

ignore that

1) what started this is your idiotic comment that quinn has an "intermediate game." that'll do wonders for your rep.
2) you cited college as "support" for your stance
3) there is an explanation for WHY performance in colelge isn't indicative of performance in the nfl and, specifically, quinn is having harder time completing the intermediate throws now

and focus on...one random comment about you personally.

everyone here knows your pattern. you get proven wrong, your next post ignores it. if the other person keeps arguing with you, your posts get shorter...and shorter...and shorter...until it's one line. usually "i don't need this. i'm done. i asked for evidence and you didn't show it."

and no, i don't have to eat any words about DA. especially as long as quinn keeps playing how he is. i never said DA is perfect but at least he can throw us some tds outside of garbage time in a game. still waiting for that from your "pro ready" scouting

i'll save you some the trouble of your next post. we're done here. you know nothing.

Go to your corners.

Seriously, let's at least lose the references to being idiots?

i was done but he started it i mean come on, quinn has an "intermediate game"?

everyone here knows your pattern. you get proven wrong, your next post ignores it

I'm sorry... what did U and everyone else prove me wrong about?
I don't see you posting anything that dispells what I said..and a reminder to you..this debate went on when the draft rolled around and who the Browns would take..Russell vs Quinn..I know all the scouting reports that were shown..the 45 minute Youtube highlights that two posters pasted that was to prove that Quinn actually could throw deep..I remember all that..so tell me how you disproved anything..while you're gnashing your teeth I'll say it again..DA is a gunslinger..and Quinn is intermediate type passer..even if he's not doing it..that was his billing coming out..so refute it..
You're not smart enough to create doubt by saying "Well maybe his arm isn't strong enough"..but you (and the crowd) are actually trying to pose that he can't go deeper..that 5-10 yards is the only type throw he can make..which is a fallacy and utterly dumb.. and you know it.

i'm not playing your game. i've done it before, put in good time to show you everything and then you make up some stupid reason for why it's not evidence.

everyone here already saw our exchanges so you can live in the dark as to who actually made a legitimate argument.

you first argue that quinn threw 15-25 yarders in college. you then pull out a random scouting report that says nothing as a positive about him being to complete a ball. instead, the only mention of that is his sporatic poor accuracy as a negative. you then latch on to the one, small snippet of post that was irrelevant to our deadbate. you then go on for the desperate personal attack. and now you're asking for evidence again. nothin doing.

but for a bonus, i can't think of a single browns fan who actually wanted russell. it's depressing hearing that savage wanted him. that said, it was a GIVEN the quarterback class of that year was particularly weak. i have NEVER seen any news questioning a qb's draft ranking as i have with quinn and how scouts said he was a 3rd to 5th rounder and that he was much closer to trent edwards than anything. we should be so lucky that he's even performing at trent's level right nwo.

now you say quinn is an intermediate passer...because a couple people posted HIGHLIGHTS on YOUTUBE that shows he PHYSICALLY COULD do it? wow. great stuff. there has NEVER been ANY mentioning from me in our exchange that i doubted quinn can physically throw the ball deep yet. somehow that's supposed to also be support that quinn is an intermediate passer...even though he's not doing it now?? i hope everyone else here is laughing at their screens over this because it's just that sad.

oh, you know what. i think i understand what you mean now. clearly you only think of passes as 10 yards or less. so yes, in that sense, quinn is an "intermediate passer." in fact, he is a very good one.

Attack...

there is one thing...i did point out that hes improved and the scud missiles thing was the only thing brought back...Anderson has improved in the fact that he now throws better on the run and does keep the ball within peoples bodies now. Sometimes he'll throw a little high, behind or in front of a WR but...he does keep it within their bodies. thats progress...maybe not like cancer curing progress, but progress nonetheless. I stated that.

but...im not trying to pile on...but you asked me questions and i feel like i answered them...im more trying to steer you away from the debate with dong with this post. thats not going anywhere.


heres an aside though...watching ESPN First Take today...Todd McShay said that Tim Tebow will struggle in the NFL because...he struggles throwing into small windows in college and the NFL windows are much much smaller. They said he struggles with accuracy downfield, and putting it in small windows. Also they said he doesnt trust that throwing a ball to a spot will lead to a completion, and that sounds a lot like Quinn right now. Doesnt trust his ability to throw into small windows...which you HAVE to do in the NFL.

Anderson absolutely does that...

but attack...can you answer to any of my post other than the scud missile part in saying Anderson doesnt have it?

I responded to you in saying what I meant by scuds...I saw him hang several players out to dry in preseason games which are exactly the type of throws he's known for.
The telling thing is that he didn't outdistance Quinn ..and that entails that other things are still shaky..the INT's he throws..forcing the ball ..are things Gini doesn't want..and perhaps thats the infected part of Quinn's game..
Sure DA can throw lasers but at what cost?
I still know he has trouble reading complex sets..I watched him several times and he threw into the coverage either not seeing the DB in the lane or trusting his arm would get it there..
Trust me DB's love that..they can sneak into the passing lane and jump the ball..if I were playing thats what I would do..
Thats what bothers me a tad more than the misfires..and while he may have improved throwing a dumpoff..I have yet to see the overall improvement.
It's been said many many times..short term he's o.k..long term, against the top defenses he's ineffective, and inconsistant.

Enlighten me if you can how dong's post about opponents record has anything to do with the type of passer he is ..I'm lost..

Lots of folks have, I would imagine. There are those that refuse to look at obvious and cold hard facts and would rather split hairs. For whatever reason.

I can't I just find it funny he brings up Quinns college opponents record to discredit any ability Quinn may or may not have.

<edited to remove comments not by dong>

i brought up neither of those things in this exchange.

I apologize, it was Loki brought up the age thing.

Oh but wait..everyone knows how I roll..how I resort to gorilla warefare tactics when I'm proven wrong..
Well seems to me when you break down dong's rebuffs..he is like DA..he gets erratic..
It would have been a better argument if he went to the accuracy thing..I posted Quinn's negatives..that would be a better line to go on..but to tell me Quinn was just a 5-10yard passer in college is ludicrous..he hasn't thrown long yet and he hasn't gone to the mid-range routes a lot bt he is capable of throwing that..now I'm not his biggest supporter(never was) but I know what I see..

no problem. i just want the best qb to start. we may differe in opinion as to who that is but i think we both want that.

wow, you seriously want to keep going, huh?

Quote:

---

but to tell me Quinn was a 5-10yard passer in college is ludicrous

---

jury, i rest my case.

Quote:

---

now I'm not his biggest supporter(never was) but I know what I see..

---

BS! how the tunes start to change.

Brady Quinn threw for 7.81 yards per attempt in his college career.

8.7 his junior year.

To say he didn't throw intermediate passes is just wrong.

I'm not debating if he's done it on the NFL level or not, because he hasn't, but to say he's "always been a dink and dunk passer" is just false.

i haven't called for quinn's benching...yet. i do think DA gives us a better chance to win but, like my attitude for DA, i want steady improvement, which is all we can ask of any of our players. unlike some on this board, they refuse to see DA's improvement but i see the improvement in both qbs. that said, quinn's improvement was marginal and exaggerated other flaws (he improved in connecting to edwards past 10 yards in the last game but as a result, held on to the ball too long and the defense recognized that in the 2nd half, resulting in more sacks and poor pocket presence).

if quinn continues to play at the current level for the next 2-3 games, that is when i feel DA should come in. my opinion is simple. if DA can continue to improve, as i've seen him do, he can be a great qb. some may feel it's too late for him but i don't, but that's why it's my opinion.

i'm not expecting playoffs nor am i expecting 8-8. it's NOT too much to ask to expect some form of offensive production. whether that's completions or, gasp, touchdowns.