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New to these boards, I'm depressed about the Browns and need some well thought answers. I can live with having a bad team, but a bad team that never seems to be getting better? Help me out with understanding some of these things.
1) Why do teams rise and fall but the browns stay bad? What are we doing so differently that's keeping us on the bottom?
2) Why do we want/need a new quarterback every 2-3 years? Have we really had this bad of luck going through 10 QBs in 10 years, or is there something else making them look worse than they are?
3) With every poor season, I feel like we dig a deeper trench and that right now it would take a miracle just to be mediocre. What needs to happen right now for the Browns to reach 8-8?
4) Why do other teams seem to make 8-10 yard throws on 3rd and 8 and the Browns seem to throw sideways on long 3rd downs?
5) Please give me a reason to believe that these guys will eventually contend. Every year I'm a little more despondent and a little less passionate...
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Ownership has no passion for the game, the team or the city.
It's his inheritance. nothing he ever really desired or worked for. Rich boys toy
that helps him fufill his realpassion... European soccer.
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 It doesn't matter if the owner has passion. All that matters is if he's willing to spend the money and effort to make the team better, and Lerner has. What Lerner has failed to do has nothing with what you said, but rather with his choices in the people who make the decisions. Pat Bowlen and Al Davis have as much passion as anyone. You see how far it's gotten those franchises. The Cowboys haven't won a playoff game this century. Jerry Jones and his passion are really working miracles there. Our problem isn't the owner. That's a cop-out. The problem has been the people he installed to make decisions.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Which I'll contend leads back to him not having enough interest to do the homework to install those folks.
We got an obligatory interview with Cowher to quell the fans desire for a good coach then he hired his guy.
The Cowboys keep plugging away which means there's hope. Sure they've not got there for a while but they're in the hunt always.
We are counted among the hopeless.
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Our problem isn't the owner. That's a cop-out. The problem has been the people he installed to make decisions.
And that in a sense makes Lerner a part of the problem..he makes the decisions..and made some bad ones..Botch should only have a been a coach not drafting anyone..mistake # 1.
Phil was a good choice but he didn't surround him with the FO people he should have.
Now Mangini/Kokinis..jury is out..
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I would pay big money to trade the last 10 years of the Browns for the last 10 years of the Cowboys.
Interesting football, late in the season - that's all I'm asking for. Give me 3-4 years of good football in December, even if we don't make the playoffs! (Then after those 3-4 years, please start making the playoffs).
Or how about this - score more than 1 offensive touchdown in the last 8 games?
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1oldMutt:
You have hit the nail on the head in both of your posts....Randy is the main problem...he doesn't know enough, or hire the right people around him to make informed decisions...thus this is his problem
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Quote:
Which I'll contend leads back to him not having enough interest to do the homework to install those folks.
Understand what you're saying........................That Lerner doesn't give enough of a crap to look after an investment where he's going to pay some $100+ million dollars in salary alone every single year.
Yeah. Right.
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We got an obligatory interview with Cowher to quell the fans desire for a good coach then he hired his guy.
Cowher stated he didn't want to coach here. The interest was genuine on our part. Cowher wanted no part of us. That isn't on Lerner.
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The Cowboys keep plugging away which means there's hope. Sure they've not got there for a while but they're in the hunt always.
That comes back to talent evaluation. Not passion.
Apples and oranges.
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We are counted among the hopeless.
Pity-parties seldom lead to sensible revelations and logical evaluation.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Our problem isn't the owner. That's a cop-out. The problem has been the people he installed to make decisions.
Come on Toad, you just said it yourself. You said Lerner has made bad choices in whom he has selected to coach and build this team. Well, then he is not a good owner. If a owner's responsibility is to hire the right men for the job, then Lerner gets a big fat F. If his responsibility is to provide endless streams of money, then he gets an A. But unfortunately we do not have a man under Lerner that makes those tough decisions. Randy Lerner has hand selected Romeo/Savage, Mangini/Kokinis.
So Lerner is at fault. He is never around and frankly, I don't think he gives a rats butt about the city of Cleveland or the Browns.
Go to Google.com and type in "Randy Lerner". You will get a page full of photos of him at his Soccer team, nothing on my search comes back about the Browns.
Lerner must go!!!!!!!!
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Cowher didn't want to come here "BECAUSE OF RANDY LERNER"
we are known as a dysfunctional train wreck in our Front Office
why in the world would Cowher come here? to this wreck...no way...I don't blame him neither....
If you were Bill Cowher would you come here? or would you wait for a more stable team so when you do go back, you won't have to worry about uprooting your family in 2-3 years?
think about it...
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If 100+ miilions spent reaps me multi 100's of millions in return whats my worry? If the turnstiles keep a clickin Randys a smilin! 
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Come on Toad, you just said it yourself. You said Lerner has made bad choices in whom he has selected to coach and build this team. Well, then he is not a good owner.
Don't lose the context and the flow of the conversation, man. (I'm jealous of where you live, by the way  All those kickass golf courses......... )
Mutt isn't blaming Lerner's talent evaluation. He's blaming Lerner for not caring enough.
Two VERY different concepts.
I can easily admit Lerner has failed........miserably.........with his decisions on who runs the team.
I can just as easily defend Lerner for not having passion. People around here have no idea whether or not he does have passion, because he's smart enough not to get in front of a camera and make an ass out of himself.
An owner doesn't need passion. He just needs smarts, and the desire to spend money to make a team work.
Lerner not being perceived as having passion is irrellevent to us failing. That's a problem Mike Brown has with Cincy, but not the Browns. Lerner's problem is that he's failed to make smart moves.
Two VERY different concepts.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Exactly. It's a double edged sword to be honest. You pay the big bucks to go to the game and you get pathetic NFL caliber play. If you don't go and hold out on the team, then we run the risk of losing the franchise.
Ultimately I don't think Randy would ever allow that to happen, hopefully he will realise he is doing us Browns fans an injustice by holding onto the team and sell it to someone with more football sense!
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Come on Toad, you just said it yourself. You said Lerner has made bad choices in whom he has selected to coach and build this team. Well, then he is not a good owner.
Don't lose the context and the flow of the conversation, man. (I'm jealous of where you live, by the way All those kickass golf courses......... )
Mutt isn't blaming Lerner's talent evaluation. He's blaming Lerner for not caring enough.
Two VERY different concepts.
I can easily admit Lerner has failed........miserably.........with his decisions on who runs the team.
I can just as easily defend Lerner for not having passion. People around here have no idea whether or not he does have passion, because he's smart enough not to get in front of a camera and make an ass out of himself.
An owner doesn't need passion. He just needs smarts, and the desire to spend money to make a team work.
Lerner not being perceived as having passion is irrellevent to us failing. That's a problem Mike Brown has with Cincy, but not the Browns. Lerner's problem is that he's failed to make smart moves.
Two VERY different concepts.
I concur that us the fans really have no idea if he has passion or not. I'm assuming that they make that assumption based on him rarely seen at the games and his constant suppor of his soccer team. Ultimately, I feel that his decision making process for our squad is not up to the Cleveland Browns Fan standard, so therefore most of us feel he needs to do the right thing and sell.
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Now that's an accurate statement.
People should keep in mind that the Glaziers in Tampa own a soccer team as well, and nobody questions their passion. Why? Because those fools don't mind the camera, they are perceived as having passion.
Blaming Lerner for the product is legit. Blaming Lerner for the product because he doesn't care is irrational.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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By the way, I do enjoy all the golf courses, but the 100% humidity sux pure and simple. I had to goto Philly with my wife for a wedding this weekend and got to experience a sunny day and a high of 67 with 0 humidity. I would trade that any day for the humidity down here my friend! I actually miss NE Ohio weather. 
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I'm not so sure those concepts are so different.
Anything in my life (or anyones) that I've no real passion for gets no real thought from me, or at least deep contemplative thought, therefore suffers in their results.
I'm putting forth, right or wrong, that this may be Lerners case. He did that big interview what last year because he thought he had to...it was time for him to speak. Appeasement is all it amounted to for me...tell them what they'd like to hear.
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That's part of the job, man.  There isn't an owner in the world that won't do what he needs to do to protect his investment.
Again, I can see bangin' on Lerner for his choices in people, but I look at the money he's spent as the barometer for whether or not he actually cares.
Frankly, I don't even care if HE cares about the team. All I REALLY care about is whether or not he's doing everything he can to make the team win. To that end, I believe he has. I just believe he's received poor advisement from the NFL (Collins) and from his own people (Handing Butch Davis entire control).
Mistakes in reason, not in effort.
And to your example, I don't like being a Food and Beverage Director. It's nothing more than a means to an end for me, ergo, I have no passion for it. Yet I give it 100% effort and often bring my work home with me. That's why I get raised and am appreciated. They know I don't "love" the food game, but they do know I put forth maximum effort.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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1) Why do teams rise and fall but the browns stay bad? What are we doing so differently that's keeping us on the bottom?
There are so many different reasons, but I believe in the end, the biggest is bad drafting. The constantly great teams are the ones that find gems and playmakers in nearly every single draft. The upstart teams are the ones who have found them recently. When you're constantly picking at the top of the draft and constantly messing it up, you can set your franchise back years. When you can't find guys worth playing in the middle to late rounds in the draft, you're going to be thin at best. We've had issues with both in the past.
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2) Why do we want/need a new quarterback every 2-3 years? Have we really had this bad of luck going through 10 QBs in 10 years, or is there something else making them look worse than they are?
Most fans are incredibly impatient for a great QB but when the system is terrible, you're going to ruin QBs left and right. If you don't have a good line, running game, defense, targets etc. different problems will present themselves to a QB. We have had those issues all over both in the past and now and it makes it hard for anyone to succeed in this system.
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3) With every poor season, I feel like we dig a deeper trench and that right now it would take a miracle just to be mediocre. What needs to happen right now for the Browns to reach 8-8?
I'd like to say that if everything suddenly clicked for players that we could fight our way to 8-8 but really, I think we just lack the talent across the board. For us to go 8-8, it would take a combination of a lot of players reaching their potential way ahead of schedule as well as a whole lot of luck.
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4) Why do other teams seem to make 8-10 yard throws on 3rd and 8 and the Browns seem to throw sideways on long 3rd downs?
Some of it is playcalling, knowing that the longer stuff will be guarded, we try to dump it off and hope someone makes a play. Some of it is Brady being too hesitant to take risks. I swear he's playing scared right now. Some of it is the offensive line failing to hold up and give us the time needed. There's a whole lot going wrong right now and you can't put your finger on just one thing.
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5) Please give me a reason to believe that these guys will eventually contend. Every year I'm a little more despondent and a little less passionate...
Ummm... law of averages?
We're... we're good?
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[And to your example, I don't like being a Food and Beverage Director. It's nothing more than a means to an end for me, ergo, I have no passion for it. Yet I give it 100% effort and often bring my work home with me. That's why I get raised and am appreciated. They know I don't "love" the food game, but they do know I put forth maximum effort.
You are my hero! Wanna buy a football team? 
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Will you take a check?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think if capable we'd both invest in other things!
Thanks for the discussion...good points!
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I don't think you can blame it all on the owner, he hired coaches that other teams would have likely given a shot too, our owner and front office didn't believe these coaches who came from great systems would be a major bust. He might lack the passion that other owners lack, but lerner is deff. not all to blame.
There are players we have drafted early that have been busts, that other teams would have drafted early to be busts. There are coaches we have hired that other teams would have hired to become busts. For whatever reason we have not gotten it right yet. Lerner does need to step up and finally make something happen for these fans and this city soon and very soon if the coaches he hires can't do it themselves.
"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"
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Quote:
New to these boards, I'm depressed about the Browns and need some well thought answers. I can live with having a bad team, but a bad team that never seems to be getting better? Help me out with understanding some of these things.
1) Why do teams rise and fall but the browns stay bad? What are we doing so differently that's keeping us on the bottom?
2) Why do we want/need a new quarterback every 2-3 years? Have we really had this bad of luck going through 10 QBs in 10 years, or is there something else making them look worse than they are?
3) With every poor season, I feel like we dig a deeper trench and that right now it would take a miracle just to be mediocre. What needs to happen right now for the Browns to reach 8-8?
4) Why do other teams seem to make 8-10 yard throws on 3rd and 8 and the Browns seem to throw sideways on long 3rd downs?
5) Please give me a reason to believe that these guys will eventually contend. Every year I'm a little more despondent and a little less passionate...
boj...As you can see, many fans are ready to start pointing fingers, claiming they know more about football than the owner, gm and coaching staff...
Here is some news those fans wont like...they don't know football and are speaking out of "emotion" and not using their brain to give some real thought to the WHY?
I will attempt to make it simple to understand for everyone...as to why the Browns are such a poor team at this time and a poor franchise as of today.
The Browns are a bad football team today due to "CHANGE".
The Browns have been in a near "constant" state of change since returning to the NFL in 1999. It's hard to have a successful team/franchise if your changing head coaches, GMs, scouts, front office help and players every 2 or 3 yrs.
Check the records...teams that are successful over the long term don't make many HC/GM changes. Teams hire a head coach and GM then give them the needed time to show that they can succeed.
Now look at the Browns since returning in 1999...Palmer/2 yrs/fired...Davis/3.5 yrs/melt down...Crennel/4 yrs/fired.
...Palmer was not head coach material, IMO.
...Butch Davis, did not have the temperament to be a long term HC in the NFL.
...Crennel kind of lost control of the team as some players showed a lack of respect for him and the Browns franchise. Was Crennel destined to be a great HC in the NFL?...I don't think so. But, to Randy Lerner's credit, he did show patients with Crennel and had the team won 2 or 3 more games last season, he might still be the Browns head coach, IMO.
Lerner did make the decision to let Crennel and Savage go and he will have to live with that decision. Lerner knows that a team in a near constant state of change is not likely to win. Mangini has been hired due to the fact that he has some experience as a head coach and has shown he can produce a winning team in his short time in NY.
We fans must understand that every time a new HC is hired, there are going to be changes in the coaching staff, player personnel, offensive and defensive philosophies and in this case, the front office. It takes time for the coaches and players to adjust to all the changes and become comfortable enough with the system and personalities to become a football team.
Yesterday, it was obvious to me that the team (players and coaches) are still adjusting to the changes and to be honest, I'm not expecting any miracles this season. It will not be pretty, IMO.
I'm sure that some will say, look how quickly the Broncos adjusted, why can't the Browns do the same. Part of the reason is due to the state of the Broncos franchise when their new HC took over vs. the state of the Browns franchise when Mangini took it over. In short, more work needs to be done here in Cleveland, plus remember what I said...every situation, every change is different and it's not fair to try to compare one teams ability to adjust to changes vs. another teams ability to adjust to changes. From one franchise to the next, nothing is equal and nothing is the same, therefore you can't compare how rapidly some franchises adjust to changes vs how rapidly other franchises adjust to changes.
The changes have been made in Cleveland, for better or worse. I doubt we see another HC change in Cleveland for some time. Randy Lerner is smart enough to know that NFL franchises rarely become successful if they are making changes every 2, 3 yrs. Browns fans and the Cleveland media can be a very impatient bunch and I'm sure Mangini knows it and expects to get beat up by fans and media, until the franchise turns around. But if we fans and the media give Mangini enough time, the Browns will be successful again.
Just remember, we are starting over again and we must show some patients. The formula for success in the NFL is not complex, it just requires something most Browns fans are short on... "patients".
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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mac,
it is about change.... but consistency, just for the sake of consistency if things aren't improving, isn't exactly good either. I disagree that all of our busts would have been busts elsewhere because I think if you take a bunch of them, guys like Jeff Faine come to mind, could have been pretty good in other systems. This is just my theory but teams don't turn around overnight, as some have suggested, it is largely a 4 to 5 year process. Now what happens is that somebody, usually a coach or a QB ends up getting a disproportionate amount of the credit but it's a process, not a single draft pick.
Take a couple of examples... the Colts in the 90s were somewhere between mediocre and awful for most of the decade, then went from 3-13 in 1998 to 13-3 in 1999 and everybody credits Peyton Manning... But the fact is that in about a 4 year span prior to going 13-3, the Colts added Marvin Harrison, Tarik Glenn, Edgerin James, Jeff Saturday, and Jim Mora... and Peyton Manning..... then they kept going with Dwight Freeney, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Bob Sanders, etc which is why they have been able to sustain it...
The Chargers did the same thing, prior to 2004 the Chargers were floundering and coming off the "Ryan Leaf Experiment" then Marty hit his 3rd year, Brees and Thomlinson were in their 2nd or 3rd year but they still sucked as a team... and in a 3 or 4 year period they added Rivers, Olshansky, Gates, Jammer, Merriman, Michael Turner, Darren Sproles, Castillo, Vincent Jackson....
And these examples probably don't even cover some of the less name players that are also big contributors that they may have picked up via free agency...
So to answer question #3 but to answer it in terms of what it takes to make us a "Cinderella Story" and not just 8-8.. it takes 3 years of great drafts and the right staff coming together at the same time.. I thought we had the real beginnings of it with JT, KWII, BE, BQ, Wimbley, DQ.. but we couldn't get it over the hump, now I'm hoping that we can get it started again before what talent we do have in there wants out.
yebat' Putin
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.. " .As you can see, many fans are ready to start pointing fingers, claiming they know more about football than the owner, gm and coaching staff... " And your point would be ??? 
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Just remember, we are starting over again and we must show some patients. The formula for success in the NFL is not complex, it just requires something most Browns fans are short on... "patients".
yes and no. It requires more than patience, it requires solid decisions on drafting and coach selection and free agent selection, etc. It also requires a little bit of luck, like a 4th round pick turning out to be a stud and hitting on every first day pick for a couple years... and staying healthy.. So I agree that it's not too complex, it's also not easy when you consider all of the things that have to come together at about the same time.
I will give you that it does require patience and while Eric Mangini is 8 months into his plan for the Browns, most fans feel like they are in year 10 of a rebuilding plan that isn't going anywhere because we keep starting over.
yebat' Putin
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.. " .As you can see, many fans are ready to start pointing fingers, claiming they know more about football than the owner, gm and coaching staff... "
And your point would be ???
water...Your not as good as you give yourself credit for
Patients, folks...prep for a long season and understand, failure usually precedes success in the NFL when teams "change".
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I'm amazed to hear someone bash Browns fans for being impatient!!!
I was three years old the last time this team won what was considered a championship so being a bit testy while waiting forty five years for another winner shows my/our impatience?
This organization has stumbled and bumbled along and never more so than the last ten years!
So Randy Lerner is smart enough to know that changing coaches every 2 or 3 years is not condusive to winning games! Ha, only took him 10 years to figure that out! In the meantime us fans sat patiently for him to learn ownership.
I'll give EM his time because indeed he needs it to install his sytem and his people, but in 3 or 4 four years if there is zero yield should we remain patient!
Cleveland fans patience has grown very thin, you can tell it by alot of these threads and who can blame them!
We may not be the ultimate authorities on football and niether are you...but don't give me this patience BS!!!!
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Why? 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Ya gotta get Chris Palmer in there too...
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I disagree that all of our busts would have been busts elsewhere because I think if you take a bunch of them, guys like Jeff Faine come to mind, could have been pretty good in other systems.
DC...who the heck said that (above)?
I don't believe I commented on our busts...did I?
Your not disagreeing with me because I never commented on the subject of busts.
I do agree, 3 yrs of work is ahead before we fans feel the success so many want today.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Cowher didn't come here because he wasn't ready to return to coaching yet. Not because of Lerner. He turned down the Jets job as well. He could have had any job opening he wanted.
And dysfunctional or not at the time Bill was offered the job doesn't mean anything. He would have been given complete authority and control. So he could redo whatever he wanted to make the organization functional.
Procrastination is caused by the fear of success
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Quote:
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I disagree that all of our busts would have been busts elsewhere because I think if you take a bunch of them, guys like Jeff Faine come to mind, could have been pretty good in other systems.
DC...who the heck said that (above)?
I don't believe I commented on our busts...did I?
Your not disagreeing with me because I never commented on the subject of busts.
I do agree, 3 yrs of work is ahead before we fans feel the success so many want today.
Sorry, that was Kelso's comment.
yebat' Putin
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Hell, Cowher could have had any coaching job he wanted, period, except for Belichick's.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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2) Why do we want/need a new quarterback every 2-3 years? Have we really had this bad of luck going through 10 QBs in 10 years, or is there something else making them look worse than they are?
Here is one thought. When we drafted Couch what was the 1st thing we did? Change his grip and throwing mechanics.
What was one of the 1st things we did after drafting Quinn? Change his grip.
This has always been something I couldn't understand. These guys were drafted in the 1st round because of how well they throw the ball. So hey I have an idea. Let's make them do it in a different way. So now instead of just doing what they do so well for so long, they have to think about their mechanics rather than what is going on around them.
If yiou ask me Charlie Weiss is a pretty good offensive coordinator (maybe not the best college HC but still a really good OC). So if he is ok with what Quinn was doing and Quinn was pretty successful with it, then why make him change.
Procrastination is caused by the fear of success
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I'll give EM his time because indeed he needs it to install his sytem and his people, but in 3 or 4 four years if there is zero yield should we remain patient!
I believe this was the nature of the comment.. Mangini is 8 months into his plan for the Browns, the rest of us are into year 10 of the new Browns constant rebuilding theme.... our patience has grown understandably thin with a lot of things but we have to keep that from carrying over to things like Alex Mack who has played 2 games and people want him canned, two WRs that are 2nd round rookies that are invisible (all be it, in an offense that is also invisible)...
As frustrated as we are as a whole, we can't keep turning on players because they aren't great immediately or because some other draft pick somewhere else (probably on a much better team) is doing better.
yebat' Putin
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You are absolutely correct that we cannot turn on the individuals that haven't been here, but we absolutely CAN turn on the organization as a whole.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Long term teh answer is: The rot starts at the top...it's Mr.Lerner and his decision making regarding personnel Short term: 
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You are absolutely correct that we cannot turn on the individuals that haven't been here, but we absolutely CAN turn on the organization as a whole.
And that's where I was going with it. The fans who may or may not know football are already throwing the Mangini regime under the bus. That's not right. I'm saying the track record of the Browns organization has not been one deserving of too much more patience. As teams cycle from top to bottom yearly, we seemt to remain stagnant year in and year out! The 10 win season was an anomaly IMO because we never followed it up with continuous improvement.
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