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i'm not saying he's perfect by any means but i read his actions as taking a jump on a lot of the poor investments (both draft and money) and taking the lumps now. it's clear we weren't going to do much this season so we take the hits now so we have the talent and experience next season. if none of his picks are playing next season, we can call this past off-season a failure but in the meantime, the poor picks by savage are taking up space and money.
What hits are we taking for the betterment of our future? None that I can think of. We didn't gain any talent - in fact, we lost more than we gained with Winslow alone. Money? We gained jack-squat in cap space with the moves you've mentioned.
Mangini had no choice in Quinn? WTF? That's sounding like a load of apologist hogwash to me.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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winslow was a malcontent who couldn't block in the run game. royal was a bad move but mangini is putting heiden in more, which is what we should've done all along.
we purged on players who were either bad or had no place being on our team as they don't fit our schemes. as for money, we're preparing for replacing the high priced guys.
i'm not making apologies for mangini by any means. what i see, though, is if we weren't *emotional* about our current record (something that plays too much into our opinions on our team and players and coaching staff, if you ask me), i see IMPROVEMENT in how our defense played against vikings and broncos before they realized the offense wasn't going to do anything anytime soon.
don't even act like mangini could've started DA from day 1. he knew he needed to play quinn, suck a few games, and justify going to another option. the fan support was just too high and the competition too close to do anything else. people may have come back down to earth now but try to remember the sentiment at that time.
all i look for is improvement each week. i just hope he handles his internal business well because he can lose his players in the next few weeks if he makes wrong moves.
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I see improvement in how our defense has played recently as well... and I also see a whole lot of failure.
And yes, he has purged a lot of players who were either bad or had no place in our scheme... but he replaced them with players that are bad or have no place in our scheme.
I'm not taking this tack to bash Mangini or call for his head; I'm only trying to point out that he really has not improved much at all, and in MANY places we've taken significant steps backward.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think lost in all this mess, and something that people didn't even post in the What I saw thread is Mack's play yesterday.
He played pretty well---and didn't even botch a snap attempt once.
Apparently Mangini coached him up.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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i think we agree there but i can justify mangini's actions. as poor as those players may have performed, he recognized that we wouldn't be contending so he 1) didn't overspend to get them and 2) got players that fit his scheme. are they subpar in talent? yes. do they provide a stronger veteran presence with having the right experience instead of bringing in "talent" at the price of money or legit experience, they do. that's why i'm not upset.
i think this team needed to be this bad to get the right ideas into the heads of our fans. if he started DA and we were 1-2, people would still have this thread and the call for quinn would be even stronger.
yes, i know i keep coming to that but that's really how strongly i feel the qb position affected our current record. from here on out, if DA starts, it's a new 13-game season.
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Don't bogart that joint,my friend,pass it over to me.
Someone's been listening to thier little feet albums 
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I see improvement in how our defense has played recently as well... and I also see a whole lot of failure.
And yes, he has purged a lot of players who were either bad or had no place in our scheme... but he replaced them with players that are bad or have no place in our scheme.
I'm not taking this tack to bash Mangini or call for his head; I'm only trying to point out that he really has not improved much at all, and in MANY places we've taken significant steps backward.
The same thing happened when Butch Davis took over, and with Crennel, and now Mangini. You can't keep changing coaches every couple years and expect good results to come out of it. Your going to stay in the same rut for years. I mean just look at this franchise the last 10 years.
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So...you guys would go all out and risk life altering injuries for your boss who you just filed a grievance against because he pretends to be your daddy? I seriously DOUBT it....I know I wouldn't
YES i would go all out, not for the boss, But for my own PRIDE in what I do for a job.
I have had bosses that I hated, but I have always done my best bcause I have Pride in doing the best I can .
Its called Pride in yourself thats what counts and I dont see that in most of the Browns players.
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at 0-3.. its hard to say this.. but might as well keep Mangini for a while... just like I thought we should keep Romeo for awhile.. I mean like 7+ years..
If it takes 7 years of medicority to make a dynasty.. I'm all for it..
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Practice Squad
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at 0-3.. its hard to say this.. but might as well keep Mangini for a while... just like I thought we should keep Romeo for awhile.. I mean like 7+ years..
If it takes 7 years of medicority to make a dynasty.. I'm all for it..
Randy won't allow that.... it only last about 3 yrs. 
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i think we agree there but i can justify mangini's actions. as poor as those players may have performed, he recognized that we wouldn't be contending so he 1) didn't overspend to get them and 2) got players that fit his scheme. are they subpar in talent? yes. do they provide a stronger veteran presence with having the right experience instead of bringing in "talent" at the price of money or legit experience, they do. that's why i'm not upset.
i think this team needed to be this bad to get the right ideas into the heads of our fans. if he started DA and we were 1-2, people would still have this thread and the call for quinn would be even stronger.
yes, i know i keep coming to that but that's really how strongly i feel the qb position affected our current record. from here on out, if DA starts, it's a new 13-game season.
Wow....thats all I can say..Wow
So EM intentionally didnt bring in talented players(who would cost more right? Like Birk costing more than St. Claire?)...because he knew we wouldnt be competing this year?
The biggest lie and fable around is that it takes 4 years or whatever to build a winner, it doesnt, a good draft or two, a good staff, correct FA action, you can go from last to contention in a year or two. Go look for yourself.
The fact of the matter is that EM replaced trash players with trash, old veterans that don't produce with old veterans that don't produce. His draft was as bad as could be, wasting 2 second round picks that could be players making significant impacts for us right now!
Plus with you, EVERYTHING is DA vs. Quinn....when in reality both are the same QB, a loss wrapped up and delivered.
You will look even more ignorant as the season progress's, DA sucks, EM continues to be EM.....EM has done nothing for this team to put it in a position to win, he hasnt upgraded talent, the "veterans that know his system" are Jets rejects that flat out cant cut it at this level. Coleman, Barton, and Elam are all pedestrian vets that dont contribute on a consistent basis, pretty much like the players they replaced.
Then again, DA is are QB, so its a "new season" because QB was realy the only major issue, and now DA will make EM look good.
Its not often that theres such a poster boy for Homer/Apologist...but....wow
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it's easy for you to change your tune after riding the wrong horse. it's easy for the dim to go on the offensive and say the team sucks, the players all suck, get rid of mangini blah blah instead of taking your lumps like a man.
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?
You mean because I was in favor of starting Quinn? Yes, I was, he doesnt look like an NFL QB. Which, I have consistently said, means we don't have a QB on this team, period.
We needed to see what we had in Quinn, guy was a high pick, he has the mental ability, doesnt look like he has the physical. I wanted to see what Quinn has, because I have already seen what DA brings to the table.
I, like alot of other smart fans, was not a "Quinn honk", I knew that Quinn being good was are only shot, period. With Derek, we dont have much of a chance, and now you can add Quinn to that list as well.
Which is also why I said that it really doesnt matter who starts right now, both guys flat out stink, plus we have so many issues and problems it doesnt matter.
Outside of that, I'm not sure what you mean by me taking my lumps?
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jc
What does anyone see in Mangini that makes them think he can produce a winning team? Butch and RAC had to rebuild, but they at least got some wins. With Mangini we can't even put points on the board.
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j/c
So, let me see if I have this straight...
Mangini - Sucks, tyrant
Daboll - Sucks, incompetent
Quinn - Sucks, scared out of his socks
Anderson - Sucks, good DA, bad DA, he's skitzo
St. Claire - Sucks, even before he got here
The 3/4 - Sucks, at least our version
Royal - Sucks, ... on a bore hog comes to mind
Heiden - Sucks, old for our needs
Lewis - Sucks, long in the tooth for his position
Linebackers in general - Suck
What the hell, we suck and there's no sign of life.
#GMSTRONG
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j/c
Well, it was no question that we've had QB issues for some time,...the fact that BQ couldn't immediately seperate himself from DA during TC was definately the writing on the wall. At the time, it was just too easy to criticize mangini for not declaring the starter for so long,..when in reality,..he had to determine who would suck the least.Not a decision any coach would want to rush into. QB looks to be the main problem right now,...not the coach.
I want to start looking at QB's coming out in the draft that we could make with our high first rd pick,...the problem solving will start there.
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I want to start looking at QB's coming out in the draft that we could make with our high first rd pick,...the problem solving will start there.
I am not sure we could make a worse mistake than to draft a QB next year.
We have so many holes on this team that taking another QB so high will just limit money available to address needs in other areas. Vet FA for a couple of season while we are looking for the guy we want.
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2nd String
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j/c
Well, it was no question that we've had QB issues for some time,...the fact that BQ couldn't immediately seperate himself from DA during TC was definately the writing on the wall. At the time, it was just too easy to criticize mangini for not declaring the starter for so long,..when in reality,..he had to determine who would suck the least.Not a decision any coach would want to rush into. QB looks to be the main problem right now,...not the coach.
I want to start looking at QB's coming out in the draft that we could make with our high first rd pick,...the problem solving will start there.
Unless we get rid of DA and/or Quinn. QB is the last position we should be looking for in the 1st round. We have so many holes to fill, our best bet is BPA no matter what the position other than QB.
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j/c
So, let me see if I have this straight...
Mangini - Sucks, tyrant
Daboll - Sucks, incompetent
Quinn - Sucks, scared out of his socks
Anderson - Sucks, good DA, bad DA, he's skitzo
St. Claire - Sucks, even before he got here
The 3/4 - Sucks, at least our version
Royal - Sucks, ... on a bore hog comes to mind
Heiden - Sucks, old for our needs
Lewis - Sucks, long in the tooth for his position
Linebackers in general - Suck
What the hell, we suck and there's no sign of life.
Yes, thats how I feel...except for the 34 defense. I like the 34 defense, bu until we address the key part of the 34, which is the OLB's...its gonna look the way it does now.
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Barfolemew, Quote:
He came in and instilled some discipline with a team that badly needed it.
Do you really belive this? Discipline in society? Discipline on the field?
I see a clear lack of discipline and fundamentals on the field. I see a team that doesn't believe in their coach.
Kudos to Mangini for making players pay for their water bottles...but he seems to have lost the team in less than 1/4 of a season.... 
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Mangini wants choir boys, he wants a perfect team off the field. His discipline should be centered on the field, it seems that he wants to make them perfect, and then comes down crazy hard on them for useless and stupid things.
He's so close to losing this locker room, and as bad and crazy as RAC was, he never lost the locker room.
I dunno what Randy does if EM looses it completely, cuz we have no GM to come back on, Kok is EM's puppet, not a GM. If EM goes, I would assume Kok goes too.
Gonna be interesting to see what happens after sundays beat down against Cinci, with the bye week coming and all...
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I'm not giving up on Mangini or this current regime yet. I am not sure I trust his talent evaluation skills yet..I think Abe Elam, and Barton are two guys he wanted that are less talented than what we had before. I think he made the wrong decision at QB, and if he wanted to dink and dunk..he got rid of the best weapon for a dink and dunker in Winslow and replaced him with Robert Royal. He brought in St Clair...everyone knew St.Clair sucked..Everyone. I am actually surprised the guy is still in the NFL let alone starting. Schaffer was bad, especially after getting pushed over by a guy 60 pounds less than him..but St. Clair is bad.. When Tucker and Schaffer were on the right side, they were good together. When Tucker was gone, Schaffer stunk. Here's to hoping Hadnot comes back and Womack gives right tackle a shot.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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jc
What does anyone see in Mangini that makes them think he can produce a winning team? Butch and RAC had to rebuild, but they at least got some wins. With Mangini we can't even put points on the board.
I don't know.. but then unlike a lot of posters, I don't profess to know...
I wonder what the Cowboys saw in their new coach in 1989 when they finished 1-15 and ranked in the low 20s in every measurable category.. They had a rookie QB that completed barely 50% of his passes and had 9 TDs and 18 INTs.. they had 2 potential offensive weapons around him, one was a cocky injury prone WR who hadn't produced much in his 2 years and the other was Hershel Walker, who they traded mid-season... The team averaged 12.8 points per game and were shut out THREE TIMES that year.... They stuck it out and the following year they went 7-9 and then rattled off about 6 double digit win seasons in a row and three super bowls..
Is that going to happen here? Highly unlikely... But my point is that it can happen.. and that just because we don't "see" something that tells us it's going to happen, doesn't mean it won't. The one thing that I can almost guarantee you is that if we keep yanking coaches, it's almost certainly never going to happen.
yebat' Putin
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Continuity only works if what you are continuing is good.
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And what we've been doing has worked so well.
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Continuity only works if what you are continuing is good.
That's my point.. what "good" did the 89 Cowboys think they were continuing? Yes in hindsight we know that Aikman, Smith and Irvin are in the HOF, and probably a few on defense.. but NOBODY KNEW THEY WERE THAT GOOD in 1989... they had a college coach who appeared to be in way over his head with a bunch of nobody assistants.... and a bunch of first and second year players that had never produced a thing in the NFL.
yebat' Putin
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I'd imagine the Cowboys had some sense hope. Sure they went 1-15 and were shut out a few games, but they were able to put points on the board. They are able to compete. The 2009 Browns are unable to put points on the board. They are unable to move the ball. This team, is 10 times worse than the 89 Cowboys. Mangini better show he can win some games next year.
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If someone wants to point out to me the light at the end of the tunnel with how EM has directed this team so far, please by all means.
The fact is, the current organizational structure will not succeed, having a coach running the show rarely works. Of course in the instances that it does, the coach is hall of famer, proven beyond a doubt, before getting full control.
We have neither the proper structure, nor the people in place. Until Randy stops thinking he can select the right coach, and until he hires a football person to run the franchise, someone that hires a GM, and then the President and GM together hire a HC. We will not succeed, and just continue to flounder.
Randy has been way to involved in this team, he knows nothing about this game, and yet has picked our last 2 coaches. He needs to hand this franchise over to a football person, write checks, and cash checks and stay the hell out of this teams affairs.
We havent stunk the last 10 years because of switching coaches, we've stunk because we've had bad people running this franchise. That is the real and all inclusive problem, fix that, fix the Browns.
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j/c
So, let me see if I have this straight...
Mangini - Sucks, tyrant
Daboll - Sucks, incompetent
Quinn - Sucks, scared out of his socks
Anderson - Sucks, good DA, bad DA, he's skitzo
St. Claire - Sucks, even before he got here
The 3/4 - Sucks, at least our version
Royal - Sucks, ... on a bore hog comes to mind
Heiden - Sucks, old for our needs
Lewis - Sucks, long in the tooth for his position
Linebackers in general - Suck
What the hell, we suck and there's no sign of life.
You forgot secondary. Outside of Wright of course. I was hoping someone would beat out McDonald this year. Not from the team but bump him to Nickle until he outplays a real starter.
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Quote:
I want to start looking at QB's coming out in the draft that we could make with our high first rd pick,...the problem solving will start there.
I am not sure we could make a worse mistake than to draft a QB next year.
We have so many holes on this team that taking another QB so high will just limit money available to address needs in other areas. Vet FA for a couple of season while we are looking for the guy we want.
We have holes to fill but none worse than the QB position. If we ever want to have a franchise QB we'll have to take a chance eventually with our first rd pick.....again ,...until we get it right. If there is a QB worthy of our draft position in rd. one, we'll grab him.
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I'd imagine the Cowboys had some sense hope. Sure they went 1-15 and were shut out a few games, but they were able to put points on the board.
In their first 3 games they scored 0, 21, and 7.... We have scored 20, 6, and 3....
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They are able to compete. The 2009 Browns are unable to put points on the board. They are unable to move the ball.
They lost their first 3 games 28-0, 27-21 (to an AWFUL Falcons team that would finish 3-13) and 30-7...
They were averaging 237 yards per game, we are averaging 218 yards per game...
They were giving up over 28 points per game, we are giving up about 31 points per game....
I'm not saying we are them.. maybe I'm just grasping for whatever hope I can find...
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This team, is 10 times worse than the 89 Cowboys.
How do you know that? or more importantly, in week 3 of 1989, how would you have known that? They were coming off a 3-13 season, they had a new coach fresh out of college.. some young unproven draft picks who hadn't contributed much... As I said, looking back now, is Quinn or DA going to be Aikman? Is BE going to be Irvin?.. is our Emmitt coming in the next draft? Don't know the answer to any of those, it's easy to say "No way" because we know how good those guys became and its all too fresh in our minds how bad our team has looked...... but is it possible.. yea, it's possible.
yebat' Putin
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My problem is we are 0 - 3 and a few players are more worried about $ 1,700 than being 0-3. Something is wrong with that.
Clay...To play devil's advocate, can't the same be said for Mangini? At the time we were 0-2 and his concern is $3 water?The definition of micro-managing. Meanwhile,he didn't live up to his own honest/integity standards
as seen in the Favre Injury scenario, i.e.the $25,000 fine.
In order to gain respect and trust, aren't we to lead by example? Not picking on you, but just throwing it out there.
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For a guy who prizes such high moral fiber from his players, isn't he who was fined by the NFL $25,000 for the Farve cover-up on his torn bicep? So he's slimy on top of being a tyrant.
Since we know Cowher isn't going to come here for any reason, as stated by someone else, the Panthers job should be opening up soon, I'm all in favor of giving the keys to the kingdom back to Schottenheimer if he'd take it. Of course the knock on Schott is he can't win the big one. Right now a few little ones are looking pretty good...
I'm just not at all sure we're any better than we were at the end of last year when we wrote it all off as having both our qb's injured. The product this man puts on the field is a joke, now with the Lions win, easily the joke of the league.
#GMSTRONG
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All Pro
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EM is not the only guy out there micro managing. taken from Yahoo fantasty football home page. Rex Ryan made Clowney inactive vs Tenn for posting this tweet: Clowney tweeted: “1 play in the 1st Half, 4 plays in the 2nd half … A bit disappointed about my playing time but very happy and satisfied about the win.” link I'll take the coach that fined a player for stealing over what happend to Clowney from a non on the field stand point. Now Rex is a better field coach, just see the tackling but that is not what my post is about. I'm talking about how everyone jumps on EM. It's too easy to kick a man while he's down. look I don't think anyone disagrees with a fine for not paying your bill. But most feel the cost was too high. Well I say what is the NFL minimum salary? now campare that with your own paycheck. is it really that high. would a 100 fine for us be that outragous? heck I pay half that for being one day late on a credit card payment. If Manigin has already lost this locker room, it speaks much more to the culture of the Cleveland Browns that you hear needs to be changed. We knew it needed change last year. The media at least gets that right this year as being Eric's first hurdle. A team of quitters with a new coach is still a team of quitters.
Last edited by RocDawg; 09/29/09 07:34 AM.
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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Continuity only works if what you are continuing is good.
I dont' care for that logic, though I've heard it many times, because if what you are continuing is good there would be no discussion on the need for continuity.
Although you are right that some teams can and have been turned around in a couple of years the calling for head to roll after a couple of games is hardly giving anyone a chance. Teams like the Cowboys and Steelers and the Ravens started out pretty badly but given the time to work it out they did alright.
I'm not too sure that anyone knows NFL football well enough that they can predict the future of a regime in the first few months of it's existence. While I agree the organization as a whole has not made good decisions and has failed to this point, I think it has to let someone have an even chance to make a go of it. Mangini did well in NY and if not for Favre's melt down may have done more than anyone could have expected.
Continuity is all we've got going for us. The constant coaching changes resulting in roster turnover before a roster is even built yet will never get us there.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Now Rex is a better field coach, just see the tackling but that is not what my post is about.
1. HC's don't teach tackling. 4 other coaches do that.
2. Aren't the good tacklers from the Jets coming off a few years under Mangini and the Browns players are coming off a few years under RAC? Maybe that's why they are better tacklers.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 104
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
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Quote:
Quote:
Now Rex is a better field coach, just see the tackling but that is not what my post is about.
1. HC's don't teach tackling. 4 other coaches do that.
2. Aren't the good tacklers from the Jets coming off a few years under Mangini and the Browns players are coming off a few years under RAC? Maybe that's why they are better tacklers.
Rex was a DC.. if no one is tackleing,, I sure as hell woul say something if I was a head coach,, and you'd prolly do the same...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
I would say something.. but it's hard to break old habits in a few weeks.. that's all I'm saying. You can't take a poor tackling team and turn them into a good tackling team in a matter of few weeks during camp... If the Jets are really good tacklers and the Browns are really poor tacklers, that is due in large part to carry over from the previous regimes... that's all I'm saying.
yebat' Putin
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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I want to isolate something..we know the Browns were horrible tacklers..but it wasn't the Dline that really had the problem..it was LB's and DB's who do and it shows this year with a new staff..I'm focusing on the main culprits..McMuffin/Wright/Elam...
McMuffin ..anytime a ball carrier gets in his area,via catch or run..he's scared to hit..he gets stiff-armed more than any DB I've ever seen..which is sick..guys know all they have to do is throw a move and get physical and he backs off..he needs to be replaced immediately..with Fancies and move his weak butt to the nickle..
This is softness that no coaching staff can fix..when you don't have physical players you won't get physical tackling..take it from someone who knows..
If guys won't sacrifice their bodies forget it..get the soft babies out of here and that mess stops..
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
I've always kind of though McDonald wasn't afraid of the hit. To me, Wright is the worst tackler of the bunch. It seems he doesn't like the contact. I think his cover skills are pretty good, but when he tackles, it seems like it's always the dive at the guys legs to take him out or the hold him while others come to help type tackle.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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