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(How's that for a Toad-worthy back patting manuever.....)
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Here's what I keep seeing... Quote:
Mangini is far from the problem. The problem is the talent level. Mangini has had ONE offseason. Phil Savage had more support after last year than this. Explain that one to me.
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Well I seriously don't know what people expect out of Mangini in his 1st year. This team was crap when he got here, and not much has changed so far. With zero playmakers, how are we supposed to win?
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You can't compete if you don't have any playmakers.
Everyone seems to just assume that Mangini was handed a giant steamer of a team. But the fact is, he is at least partially to blame for the fact that we have zero playmakers.
Mangini is the one that traded Kellen Winslow (a playmaker) for a pick that was used to get Massaquoi, who has had zero impact, and a fifth rounder in 2010 that, I'm willing to bet, won't be as productive as Winslow.
Mangini is the one that replaced Winslow with Robert Royal.
Mangini is the one that used that 36th pick on a player who isn't even active, at a position where we are starting a former college quarterback turned special teams ace.
Mangini replaced an average to below average right tackle with an absolutely garbage right tackle.
Mangini traded away the 5th pick in the draft (which could have netted us a "playmaker") so that we could overdraft a back-up middle linebacker who is a converted defensive end, a center who can't make shotgun snaps, a DB who did a three stooges routine in the lockerroom, a running back who's giving us nothing so far, two average defensive veterans (to replace an average safety and work in the rotation of an average defensive line), and a third string QB.
Mangini replaced a mediocore middle linebacker with a mediocore middle linebacker he was familiar with.
On top of that, he literally gave away a sixth round pick so that he could free up the last garbage roster spot during training camp.
Mangini is the one that brought in an inept, inexperienced OC who calls unimaginative, predictable plays which doesn't let us put our mediocore guys in a position to make plays.
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But he was handed a pile of do do and people think he should be able to wave his magic wand and all is good.,..
Mangini's contributed plenty to that pile. I think this quote sums it up pretty well.
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My problem with Mangini is the overall talent level of this team. Mangini is the one who makes the personnel decisions, and somehow, the talent level appears to have gotten worse from last year to this year. That is inexcusable.
The free agent decisions were Mangini's. The draft was Mangini's. He is responsible for the product we see on the field. And so far, it sucks.
Mangini's done absolutely nothing to increase the talent level of this team. If anything, he's made it worse.
Couple that with the fact that he mishandled the QB situation, the team hasn't even looked competitive, and the team, fans and media seem to hate him, and you've got a real stinker of a coach. You all can riducule Django all you want, but there's been a lot of truth to the venom he's been spittin'.
Much respect to ya, even if you wish me the opposite...
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But he was handed a pile of do do and people think he should be able to wave his magic wand and all is good.,..
Jesus...I will keep repeating this till it finds a brain...the same "do do" won 10 games 2 years ago and was about an average NFL team with lots of young starters....and now we are BY FAR the worst team in football...
I know what the real "do do" is here... 
URGH...2 years ago was not last year...If Mangini was handed the 07 team, then we'd have an actual discusion going on here after an 0-4 start. He was handed the mess from 08. Although, I agree we have talent, that's not the problem. What we've been missing in Cleveland for years is pride, true discipline, a true hard working attitude and team oriented players that can actually focus on ONE GOAL. You know what, I'm gonna say what I shouldn't say....THANK GOODNESS that we finally have someone leading the team that doesn't take crap from his players and can show some real emotions. We haven't had that in a coach since we've been back. These players get paid big bucks, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to show some class and respect on or off the field. Look at Pool~he got enough splinters in his back side to change his tune and he showed up Sunday! Sunday wasn't perfect (we lost after all), but I finally saw a team that showed up for the WHOLE game. In my opinion, that's what Mangini is trying to do. No one player is better than any other player if they can't get the job done. Doesn't matter what you did 2 years ago if you can't do it now.
Alright...I feel better now
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Thanks, Mrs. Mangini...........
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Its a shame many probabley quit reading this thread because this is an entertaining article about Mangini by someone outside of Cleveland and I wouldnt want to start a new one just to see it get deleted. Mangini finally gives Browns, fans reason to believe Oct. 8, 2009 By Gregg Doyel CBSSports.com National Columnist Tell Gregg your opinion! http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/12331933 Hate Mail: Check out the big brain on Gregg Every now and then, a sports leader will do something that reaffirms your faith in sports leaders. And when that happens, it would be appropriate to offer that man a salute of gratitude. Even if his name is Eric Mangini. And the truth is, I want to like Mangini. No, really, I do. He doesn't always do it in the most likeable way, but Mangini stands for things that make my cold heart go pitter-patter. See there? I just wrote an adorable little phrase like pitter-patter. I'm thawing already, and it's because of the way Mangini handled Braylon Edwards -- although "handled" might be the wrong verb. Mangini handled Edwards in much the same way a cryonics worker in Scottsdale, Ariz., allegedly handled Ted Williams' frozen, decapitated head. By smacking it with a monkey wrench. That's what Mangini did to Edwards. He smacked him with a metaphorical monkey wrench by shipping him away to the Jets less than 48 hours after Edwards was accused of punching a much smaller man outside a Cleveland club. Maybe Edwards is innocent, or maybe he was provoked. Probably not, but it's possible. Whatever the case, Mangini didn't wait for the police or the court system to determine what happened. Mangini decided he'd had enough nonsense from Braylon Edwards, so he sent him away to become someone else's problem. This is why I want to love Mangini. It's why we should all want to love him. Buffalo makes a multi-millionaire of Terrell Owens and the 49ers make nice with Michael Crabtree and the Detroit Tigers let Miguel Cabrera play hours after he gets into a drunken altercation with his wife, and enough is enough. We all long for someone in the sports world to treat misbehaving athletes like the spoiled brats they are, and Mangini just did it. But I don't love Mangini. Neither do you. And that's because his alligator mouth is backed up by a hummingbird ass. If Mike Tomlin or Tom Coughlin or, yes, Bill Belichick was fining one of his players $1,700 for failing to reimburse a hotel for a $3 bottle of water from the room refrigerator, we wouldn't hate it. Not as much as we hated it when Mangini did that to an unidentified Cleveland Brown earlier this season. If it's done by Tomlin or Coughlin or Belichick -- Super Bowl rings among them: five -- we'd call it tough love. It'd be respectable. And we'd like it. But when the tough guy is Mangini -- playoff wins: zero -- it's not tough love. It's petty and bullying. It's not respectable. It's ridiculous, and we hate it. And we're not wrong to hate it. Mangini is exceptional at demanding respect, but he hasn't been as adept at earning it. That includes mine, an aside that matters only in that I wrote this story on Mangini 10 days ago, and now I'm writing this salute of gratitude today, and perhaps it will come across to some of you as inconsistent. The point remains from 10 days ago. Mangini's players don't seem to like him, as evidenced by the way they've used the NFL's grievance system to go after their head coach at least five different times -- and probably more than that, since that count of five grievances was reported almost two weeks ago. Surely in two weeks Mangini has ticked off another player, possibly more, with a fine for forgetting to recycle a Gatorade bottle or for wearing mismatched shower shoes through the locker room. My original point from 10 days ago remains: Mangini's methodology doesn't seem to be endearing him with his players. But this time, it should. Jettisoning Braylon Edwards should win over some of the locker room, if only for a day or two. Edwards was a malcontent, and worse than that, he was an underperforming malcontent whose high salary cap number was accounting for precious cap space unworthy of his miniscule production and malingering work habits. He was bringing the team down, in other words. On and off the field. Mangini sent a message to the locker room that rules are rules, and that no one who shirks the rules can feel safe. That's a welcome message for any workplace, even one as immature and self-centered as an NFL locker room. Like Browns return man Joshua Cribbs told me a few weeks ago in Cleveland, "Players want discipline. We need it." Players can be like kids. They want attention from their coaches/parents, even if it means a spanking. In their heart of hearts, they know being spanked is better than being ignored, and the Browns have already had a coach who ignored them. Romeo Crennel was a players' coach in that he didn't much care what his players did. Talk to the media or don't. Dress appropriately or don't. Take the hotel's bottle of water or get in a fight outside a club. Or don't. Crennel didn't care. Some might see that attitude as being nice, and he is. Romeo Crennel is a nice, nice man. But his niceness came across as laziness, and lazy leadership is no leadership. The Browns loved Crennel so much that they lost their last six games for him in 2008, averaging 5.2 points and going scoreless in the final two. Crennel went one way with discipline. Mangini, clearly, is going the other. He fines players who do small things wrong and he just traded away a former first-round pick who did a big thing wrong. The other stuff needs work. I said it 10 days ago and I'll say it again. The secretive depth chart, the militant fines, the public smugness ... it needs work. Mangini has holes in his game, and if he doesn't fix them during his second go-around as an NFL head coach, there won't be a third. Cleveland players are desperate for a reason to believe in their coach. Cleveland fans are desperate for a reason, too. Mangini just gave them one.
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Nice find and a good read. Thanks for posting.
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Wow, that was actually a pretty good, unbiased article. I still do not like Doyel because he is an unprofessional writer, but I cannot deny that this is a good article that contains nearly 100% truth, especially Mangini's faults.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Rolling Stone slams Browns' Mangini
By TOM WITHERS,
AP Sports Writer
CLEVELAND (AP) Even Rolling Stone is throwing rocks at Browns coach Eric Mangini.
In its latest issue, the iconic music magazine stepped outside its usual arena with a harsh critique of Mangini, comparing him to Augustus Gloop, the fictional overeater in Roald Dahl's "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" and calling his short coaching tenure in Cleveland "a sort of Hurricane Andrew of football mismanagement."
Mangini, fired by the New York Jets in December, has become a target of abuse - much of it from outside Cleveland - for some of his decisions this season, most notably his handling of the Browns quarterbacks and excessive fines levied on players who break his rules.
The Browns are 1-5 with their only win a 6-3 decision over the Buffalo Bills on Oct. 11.
Long before Rolling Stone piled on, Mangini was being slammed for some of his coaching methods. He has fined players for not adhering to his policies - like parking in the wrong spot - and he slapped one unidentified player a $1,701 fine for failing to pay for a $3 bottle of water during a hotel stay.
Some players complained privately about the length of training camp practices and more hitting than some of them had experienced since high school. Mangini also has subjected players to pop quizzes during meetings, his way of making sure they are learning their playbook and about each other. He forced his rookies to take a 10-hour bus trip this summer to his football camp, and made his team practice outdoors in the rain.
Mangini won't tolerate anyone not part of his program.
He traded playmaker Braylon Edwards to the Jets one day after the wide receiver allegedly punched a friend of NBA superstar LeBron James outside a Cleveland nightclub. Mangini has transformed Cleveland's roster, bringing in 26 new players from last season, including 10 who played for him in New York last season.
One of them, linebacker David Bowens, said Mangini is unfairly portrayed as tyrant.
"His office is always open," Bowens said last week. "It's not like it's a total dictatorship around here."
Rolling Stone writer Matt Taibbi went as far as saying the Browns have quit on Mangini in lopsided defeats, a charge many of Cleveland's players dismissed after road losses to Denver and Baltimore.
Taibbi wrote: "In the NFL, if you don't show your players that you have a plan that works, the T-minus to an on-field player revolt is usually about a month. In Cleveland, we're there."
Updated October 20, 2009
Humiliating....
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Probably more like their sales in Ohio are down, so this is payback,...  I haven't read The Rolling Stone since, .... , nevermind.
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Believing anything Rolling Stone has to say about football is = to trusting their advice on brain surgery 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Mangini is the one that traded Kellen Winslow (a playmaker) for a pick that was used to get Massaquoi, who has had zero impact, and a fifth rounder in 2010 that, I'm willing to bet, won't be as productive as Winslow.
Totally offbase...Mass is a rookie who is showing he can do catch..he needs more game experience..and get some passes that are actually good strikes..
The one rooting away is Robo who showed he does have hands and can get seperation..
No one can predict how productive either will be till they are featured in the passing game..so don't try to do it.
Mangini is the one that replaced Winslow with Robert Royal.
If there's a gripe thats a legid one.
Mangini is the one that used that 36th pick on a player who isn't even active, at a position where we are starting a former college quarterback turned special teams ace.
That comment makes no sense to me now that Cribbs is back to ST's and wildcat..and Robo is now playing..just took too long to do it.
Mangini replaced an average to below average right tackle with an absolutely garbage right tackle.
U might have something there, but Shaffer was hidden better with Tucker starting..
Mangini traded away the 5th pick in the draft (which could have netted us a "playmaker") so that we could overdraft a back-up middle linebacker who is a converted defensive end, a center who can't make shotgun snaps, a DB who did a three stooges routine in the lockerroom, a running back who's giving us nothing so far, two average defensive veterans (to replace an average safety and work in the rotation of an average defensive line), and a third string QB.
Mac is improving so U lost that..don't know anything about 3 stooges routine..but I would wager that Francies is better than McDump..what RB are you talking about?
Davis?
Injured...
Couple that with the fact that he mishandled the QB situation, the team hasn't even looked competitive, and the team, fans and media seem to hate him, and you've got a real stinker of a coach. You all can riducule Django all you want, but there's been a lot of truth to the venom he's been spittin'.
So U gonna take his place?
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That article is complete garbage. Nothing more than kicking a dog when they are down.
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Here's one fan who doesn't hate him. I kind of like him. I am 100% going to support him and see what develops over the next couple years. 
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I really wasn't sure about him when we first hired him...
And in all honesty he hasn't handled everything perfectly...2 things that first come to mind are the QB situation and some coaching positions that were filled...
You can probably nit pick allot of things on the surface...But those nit picks could be said about ANY coach in the NFL on any week. The difference is 10 years of losing beforehand.
However, the more I hear about Mangini, the more I like him. I think people that are slamming him right now are people who either couldn't tell the difference between a football and ping pong ball or have a football ego so large that they have lifted off the face of the earth and are breathing Martian air. They are so consumed with their own plan of bringing in every super star who ever played the game that they can't grasp what Mangini is actually doing. And it is not worth trying to explain what he is doing because they won't acknowledge it.
I could care less what the media says NOW about Mangini...Lets see what the story REALLY is a few days or weeks down the road....Similar to how everyone is reporting that the whole team is against Mangini because of the grievences...Then later we find out that all of the grievences were placed by ONE PLAYER...who was a malcontent and and idiot to boot. And then we find out how that malcontent was behaving.....which caused the fines...which brought on the grievences....
Personally...I think Mangini is on the right track. It mat not look like it on the surface...but that is because he is doing work on the foundation underneath. It is not pretty work. but if you can't see the progress that is being made...then you don't know football.
Yes it is frustrating to see the Falcons, the Broncos, and other doormats turn things around quicker...But Mangini isn't building a Butch Davis 1 year wonder and gone team....
Mangini cut a allot of talent off of this team...but talent doesn't mean squat if they aren't on the same page with the team. I am glad they are gone. In most of their cases....I NEVER wanted them. And their talent might help us win what???? a game or 2 more this year???? and then they leave anyway???? How does that help us with what we are building???
I see too much crying and whining by a bunch of frustrated people who are too tired to bother to look at the fact that this team is making progress...All they care about are stats and numbers.....and they don't bother to look at the football.
There is a ways to go. And there are definitely some legitimate gripes....But GEEZ I swear I don't hear fans anymore but winey little witches (with a capital B)
Stop looking at what you would have done or would do now...How about trying to look at what the Browns are doing now and are trying to do....Quit listing to the idiot media who hate on Mangini because he actually makes them work for a story....
For me....The most dissapointing thing about this season has not been the Browns...It's been the Fans.....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I am on board with Mangini. If we actually give him some time, he will build something here. This organization has switched directions way too much over the past decade. It could be argued that the Browns hve been mired in an identity crisis for the past ten years.
IMO, Mangini is trying to change that---and it is gonna take awhile. He needs several drafts to get his guys in here and put a system in place that will carry over year after year.
No one can argue that this franchise has been a joke since its inception. Other teams have solid programs that don't miss a beat plugging in this guy or that guy.
Cleveland has nothing to go from. Its a hodge-podge of talent with little organization. It has no identity, it has no history, it has no credibility.
This kind of thing doesn't get fixed overnight. It is going ot be a long process and I believe that Mangini can do it.
He should get 5 years at least.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Quote:
I
Yes it is frustrating to see the Falcons, the Broncos, and other doormats turn things around quicker...
I agree with your other points, but these were bad examples.
Broncos may have collapsed near the end of last year and their defense was not good, but they did go 8-8. The Broncos have finished below .500 once in the past 9 years. That is no doormat.
The Falcons fell apart during the Petrino-Vick+dogfighting year, but they already had a solid foundation before that year. They went 11-5, 8-8, 7-9 in the 3 years prior to Petrino. Their talent base was deteriorating a little bit and they had a perfect storm kill their season, but they were no doormat.
Look at the Bucs, Lions and Chiefs this year....that is what a rebuilding team looks like.....I'd say the Raiders, but they are not building, just trying to patch and go as usual (same with Washington and Buffalo).
We have been in the patch and go group for 10 years....it's a small step to be in the rebuilding group, but at least that is where I think we sit now. Hopefully we move our way up to the mediocre teams and eventually into the annual contenders, but it's a process, not a jump.
#gmstrong
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Ahh but the point is that everyone points to those teams turnarounds...and I agree with your points...they had more to build upon and that is definitely why they were able to turn around quicker...but I mainly grabbed those names because those were the most recent big "turnaround" stories people point to. .
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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yeah, it just drives me nuts that people expect the same type of turnarounds here (which by the rest of your post, you obviously don't)....we don't have what they had to start with.
then again, you can get stuck at any point in the rise....Houston built their team the right way (building depth, not too many high-priced guys, got a couple playmakers in the draft and then brought in a QB), but they are still stuck at 8-8 every friggin' year.
#gmstrong
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Mangini? To be honest, somewhat mixed feelings on the guy. I like the regimented approach he's taking but I'd also like to see some honest emotions from the guy. He needs to quit trying to be Belichick and open up a bit, have some fun with it. If someone said tomorrow that Ryan was taking over as head coach, I'm sure I would smile.
#GMSTRONG
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no marriage of coach and team is perfect. Jeff Fisher donning a Colts jersey this week (could you imagine a Browns HC with steelers garb?!) is a recent one. The HC in Denver might be the toast of the town but he was ridiculed daily this past spring. I've seen good and bad out of our new regime but I have liked alot of the good things I've seen. I don't want us to blow something prematurely, its going to be painful but we're in full on rebuild mode, trading picks, establishing that this season will be a rough go of it before next year.
The funny thing is that for myself personally I think we do have a fine young corps on offense, plug in a RT and likely a QB and it's probably night and day. Defense needs a bit more work but if you attack it right I think you can establish playmakers at 2 or 3 spots and notice an overnight return on investment.
#gmstrong
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So would he
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Believing anything Rolling Stone has to say about football is = to trusting their advice on brain surgery
Taibbi wants to be as good a sports writer as Hunter S. Thompson. He's not.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Taibbi is a hack. His political stuff is garbage. He is a self absorbed know-it-all. Elitist a-hole IMO. If he ever considered using real facts for his articles it would be a miracle.
He is one reason that after recieving Rolling Stone for close to 30 years, I now wouldn't wipe my backside with it.
#gmstrong
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Take a look at when I wrote that...I wrote it before the Bengals game. I was basing my opinions off of what I saw so far. At the point, we had got nothing from MoMass and Robiskie was always inactive. A few weeks later, and we've gotten, I believe, one catch from Robiskie, and some decent efforts from MoMass mixed in with some awful drops. I'll admit that the Mack pick is looking better and better as the season rolls on. I have to admit, I was a little worried about him at the beginning of the season, being that he had a hard time beating out a mediocore Hank Fraley, had trouble in camp, and struggled with his snaps early. Everything else was spot on. Even before his injury (when I wrote that), Davis was giving us nothing. At this point, Francies is either really terrible or Mangini is making terrible decisions about who plays, because he has to be pretty bad if he can't give us more than McDonald is giving us. Veikune, in my opinion, was a wasted pick. I have no problem with that kind of pick in the 3rd or 4th round, but not in the second, when starters and impact players can be found. All the Jets we brought in are average at best. (The 3 stooges routine refers to Coye Francies's punch throwing in the lockerroom during some rookie initiation. ) I don't necessarily think Mangini is the anti-Christ as Django would sometimes make it seem, but I gotta admit that I am not impressed at all by his coaching, his personnel decisions, or his personality. I think there was a little bit of truth in what Django was shouting about. Here's the only thing I do know, and this isn't directed at you, AttackDawg, but to the general fanbase: If you think that building a winner is a 4 or 5 year project, you are an idiot. Saints, Falcons, and Dolphins are a perfect example. I'm already disappointed with the teams performance this year. I expect them to win and compete next season for a division title. Any coach or fan that feels that's unrealistic is a moron. It can be done. Also, if I ever see anyone happy again that we "almost" beat the Steelers, "closed" the gap with the Steelers, or any other nonsense like that after a loss, I'll puke. Just beat them!!! 
Much respect to ya, even if you wish me the opposite...
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Quote:
If you think that building a winner is a 4 or 5 year project, you are an idiot. Saints, Falcons, and Dolphins are a perfect example.
That's a gross oversimplification.
Unlike the Browns, each of those teams had some real core players to build around, which is to say they had an overall talent level that we simply don't have.
Now in today's free agency, if you get lucky on a big acquisition (think Michael Turner or Joey Porter) you can cut that number of years down to 3, but to think it can be done in a year or 2 while maintaining a CONSISTENT level of talent is unrealistic.
Never mistake possible for plausible, and don't mistake one good year as having reached the goal. TRUE success comes from having a successful team over SEVERAL seasons based around a high level of talent across the board.
We may have one or two talented players, but we don't match up with any of those teams you mentioned. It ain't close.
Blame Mangini for what he's earned, which includes how he botched the QB situation at the beginning of the year, but don't blame him for the lack of talent we have here. Losing Winslow and Edwards was going to happen sooner or later, with the difference being we got something for losing them a year early.
The bottom line is we had to step backwards now to go forwards later. Savage saw to that. Mangini has to pick up the pieces.
Maybe he's good, maybe he's a bum. I don't know. I supported his hiring, and despite being very critical, I think he'll be a good coach. But what I do know is that he was handed Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson as his QB's, and outside of our one TRUE stud in Thomas, we had a bunch of bums. The vast majority of our talent was guys like Winslow and Edwards who didn't have a future here.
Mangini can carry his own cross for the things he's done, but inheriting this team and judging him not even half-way through his first draft is shortsighted at best. People were ready to call our center the biggest bust of all time after 2 games Maybe some of us fans should learn from their mistakes.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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good points all around... We have got to build this thing right if we plan to have any consistent success at all
#gmstrong
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Unlike the Browns, each of those teams had some real core players to build around, which is to say they had an overall talent level that we simply don't have.
I've been hearing this for nearly 10 years now.
Strangely, a good number of these "turds" go to another team and end up as winners. That would tell me that perhaps it's not always the player's skill levels but the coaching they are receiving.
The only thing the fans need to learn is not to accept lame excuses from the team and their apologists. It's been 45 years since we've had a winner here. I don't think it's the fan's fault.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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I would also add that many of the teams people point to for quick turnarounds have had some stability in their front office, and have maintained some talent through the years. While we have basically turned over our 50% of our roster like 3 or 4 times in 10 years.
I think while Mangini has done what looks like questionable moves, sometimes you have to make major moves, to make progess in the future.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I sure hope we stablize now.. this constant shift of GM's and HC's is doing nothing to build continuity in the organization.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Continuity, is it really valuable?
Jeff Fisher - Longest tenured head coach in the league, smart football mind, generally loved by his players, talk about continuity - Tennessee 0-6
Josh McDaniels - Shortest (tied with others) tenured head coach, embroiled battle with star receiver, trades away franchise QB, generally seen in the media as mucking the whole thing up until the season started. Denver 6-0.
I think continuity is way over-rated.
#GMSTRONG
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Continuity isn't overrated... continuity doesn't guarantee you success EVERY YEAR. Go back and look at Cowher, Shanahan, Del Rio, any coach that stayed in one place for a while and you will see some ups and downs.. a 6-10 season mixed in there... it happens for a variety of reasons.
The chance of finding the exact right mix of players and coaches to go from worst to first by changing staffs every 3 or 4 years is what is overrated and highly unlikely.
yebat' Putin
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I think you're splitting hairs so lets just say, "isn't essential" to be successful.
There is no finding a right mix, it's not a pot at the end of a rainbow. Although some would probably argue that in Denver's case that's exactly what it turned out to be. The right mix has to be created by the coaches, I think our D has shown signs of being on it's way there. Credit Ryan. Our O? Let that stand on it's own merits as well.
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Quote:
I would also add that many of the teams people point to for quick turnarounds have had some stability in their front office, and have maintained some talent through the years. While we have basically turned over our 50% of our roster like 3 or 4 times in 10 years.
I think while Mangini has done what looks like questionable moves, sometimes you have to make major moves, to make progess in the future.
ummm I'm gna throw the BS flag on this one...
Examples:
Indy has been in the playoffs the last 9 of 10 years
Philly 7 of 10
Giants 6-10
new England 6-10
Green Bay Chargers Pitts
if you look at their roster over 4 years no more than 10-15 players staying on those teams
over 10 years ha... maybe 1-2 at the most, The NFL is all about getting 6-7 key players and having decent talent to plug and play.
Coaching and having an adjustable game plans to your players skills are what win in the NFL and with a good coach any NFL team can win.
there is a .2% chance of making the NFL from playing HS ball the NFL. The NFL has the cream of the crop every single year.
The reason the Browns have sucked so bad is because the coaches try to make key players do things that are not playing to their stregnths and our coaches are too stubborn to change their gameplans.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Quote:
Continuity, is it really valuable?
Pittsburgh Steelers: 6 Superbowl wins in 7 appearences 1 ownership family with many failures until the light went on in the Late 60's. Once they got it right, they never forgot.....
Continuty isn't overrated.
Josh McDaniels is having a wonderful year.. Sustaining it will be the harder thing to do. You can't judge that in 6 games.. maybe in 6 years....
Jeff Fisher,, do you really think he just got stupid? I think it's because he lost his DC to Detroit. Offensively, they made a mistake taking Young and Collins is pretty much over the hill..
Even Pittsburgh had down years. That happens..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If you think that building a winner is a 4 or 5 year project, you are an idiot. Saints, Falcons, and Dolphins are a perfect example.
That's a gross oversimplification.
Unlike the Browns, each of those teams had some real core players to build around, which is to say they had an overall talent level that we simply don't have.
Now in today's free agency, if you get lucky on a big acquisition (think Michael Turner or Joey Porter) you can cut that number of years down to 3, but to think it can be done in a year or 2 while maintaining a CONSISTENT level of talent is unrealistic.
Never mistake possible for plausible, and don't mistake one good year as having reached the goal. TRUE success comes from having a successful team over SEVERAL seasons based around a high level of talent across the board.
We may have one or two talented players, but we don't match up with any of those teams you mentioned. It ain't close.
Blame Mangini for what he's earned, which includes how he botched the QB situation at the beginning of the year, but don't blame him for the lack of talent we have here. Losing Winslow and Edwards was going to happen sooner or later, with the difference being we got something for losing them a year early.
The bottom line is we had to step backwards now to go forwards later. Savage saw to that. Mangini has to pick up the pieces.
Maybe he's good, maybe he's a bum. I don't know. I supported his hiring, and despite being very critical, I think he'll be a good coach. But what I do know is that he was handed Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson as his QB's, and outside of our one TRUE stud in Thomas, we had a bunch of bums. The vast majority of our talent was guys like Winslow and Edwards who didn't have a future here.
Mangini can carry his own cross for the things he's done, but inheriting this team and judging him not even half-way through his first draft is shortsighted at best. People were ready to call our center the biggest bust of all time after 2 games Maybe some of us fans should learn from their mistakes.
Not with ya on this one bud 
Not a Mangini fan ( at hire or now ) .. I think he could have made some much better moves in the FA that would have made the draft and play on the field much improved .. I certainly don't know what he told Lerner ( interview ) ; but you can bet he didn't tell him we might start of 1 and 5 PS: he went way over board with the x-jet thing 
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We've had no stability on this team period.
How many starters from 4 years ago on still on this team and starting? 3 years ago?
Sure, teams turn over players over 4 years, but do they turn 30-50% of there roster in a single year every 4 years?
And they tend to replace those players with capable players, that are surrounded by talent that can help them learn and succeed. We haven't done that yet. Who on this team from 3 years ago would you trust to teach any newcomer anything?
And how can an opinion be BS, it may be incorrect or flawed, but BS is truth or fiction, not opinions.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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"Mangini traded away the 5th pick in the draft (which could have netted us a "playmaker") so that we could overdraft a back-up middle linebacker who is a converted defensive end, a center who can't make shotgun snaps, a DB who did a three stooges routine in the lockerroom, a running back who's giving us nothing so far, two average defensive veterans (to replace an average safety and work in the rotation of an average defensive line), and a third string QB."
hmmmm....as the light bulb comes on - Django Brown writes for The Rolling Stone Magazine. Now things make sense 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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It comes down to whether or not you have smart people running your team, in the front office and on the field. So many fans have become infected with the thought that if you stick with bad football people long enough, somehow things are going to change.
It doesnt take 4 years to build a competetive football team, and don't believe me, everyone go look and do some research on recent team turn arounds over the last 10 years. Your gonna see that it takes no more than 2 offseasons, and that results are almost instant, the teams may not win their first year, but progress is being made.
What so many fans just don't get is continuity is a product of good coaches and a smart front office, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
I'm betting EM gets atleast next year, and theres nothing I can do about it but hope that he suddenly wakes up one day and understands how to run an NFL team and judge NFL talent.
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Tulsa, stop arguing with me.  Quote:
I think you're splitting hairs so lets just say, "isn't essential" to be successful.
No it isn't absolutely essential.. but who knows where the Broncos will be next year or the year after that...
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There is no finding a right mix, it's not a pot at the end of a rainbow. Although some would probably argue that in Denver's case that's exactly what it turned out to be.
I have argued for years that there is no magic too it.. perhaps some luck. Having the right coach, the right players, the right coordinators... you can't just have one of those and be successful.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
Continuity, is it really valuable?
Pittsburgh Steelers: 6 Superbowl wins in 7 appearences 1 ownership family with many failures until the light went on in the Late 60's. Once they got it right, they never forgot.....
Continuty isn't overrated.
Josh McDaniels is having a wonderful year.. Sustaining it will be the harder thing to do. You can't judge that in 6 games.. maybe in 6 years....
Jeff Fisher,, do you really think he just got stupid? I think it's because he lost his DC to Detroit. Offensively, they made a mistake taking Young and Collins is pretty much over the hill..
Even Pittsburgh had down years. That happens..
Daman, seriously lets keep this real and not toss out things I didn't say or even infer like Jeff Fisher is stupid. Actually my original quote was the exact opposite.
#GMSTRONG
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