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Daman, seriously lets keep this real and not toss out things I didn't say or even infer like Jeff Fisher is stupid. Actually my original quote was the exact opposite.
I know you didn't say he was stupid..
It's interesting that you make the comment that continuity isn't essential but you gloss over my comments on the Steelers and Josh McDaniels just so you can jump my case for something meaningless...
so,, did my argument about the Steelers and McDaniels not hit home with you.. or are you just going to ignore it.
#GMSTRONG
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Unlike the Browns, each of those teams had some real core players to build around, which is to say they had an overall talent level that we simply don't have.
I've been hearing this for nearly 10 years now.
Strangely, a good number of these "turds" go to another team and end up as winners. That would tell me that perhaps it's not always the player's skill levels but the coaching they are receiving.
Ironic............because I've been hearing THAT for years, yet who are they?
We (not you and me, but we as a board) have been down THAT debate many, many times, and outside of about 2 players, NONE of our post-99 players have gone on to be great players on other teams.
Brown, Warren, Kevin Johnson, Couch, Green, Suggs, RB-Jackson, Jamel White, Quincy Morgan, LB-Taylor, Thompson, Bentley...........the list goes on and on.
Keep in mind there were some good players who left because of free agency or other issues, but we're not talking about GOOD players, we're talking about "turds." Your words.
Take a look at this team right now. How many "core" players do we have? 5 or 6? How many of the rest are legit guys?
No, we're one of the least talented teams in the league. It's been a trickle-down effect since those idiots in '99 bumbled our drafts. Then Butch flubbed the drafts, then Savage flubbed the drafts. That has led us here.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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First, I didn't jump on you...
Second, I didn't gloss over your comments, I just didn't reply to them. You're entitled to your opinion and we don't agree; that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to respond to them. I stated my opinion, you stated you felt different and why.
One thing is certain on this forum, regardless of mine or yours or anyone elses opinions, rarely is the time someone changes their own in these discussions. To prattle on further about it is pointless.
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I called them turds because that is what you are implying. That all we have on the roster is crap. (And since Mangini has gotten his hands on the roster I tend to agree). But in the past decent players have left and gone on to be good players elswwhere. You and I both know it.
Look, in 2002 we made the playoffs. We weren't going to the Super Bowl but we did manage to do what a couple dozen other teams couldn't do....make the playoffs.
In 2007 we won 10 games and would have made the playoffs in most years. We weren't the greatest thing since sliced bread but we did have talent.
Now, I grant you that is only 2 years in the last 10. But to say we've never had any talent here is BS. And it's letting the FO off the hook.
Nearly every year there is an example of a team that pulls it together and exceeds expectations. Some even do it without the benefit of a cupcake schedule. Just once I'd like it to be us.
But it's never gonna happen with guys like you saying, "Oh, they didn't have any talent when they got here they deserve 3-5 years to develop their system."
Hogwash. 2 years, tops. Hire the right staff and it's not gonna be a problem to meet that deadline. Our problem is we keep hiring the wrong GMs and coaches. And, sadly, I think we may have done it again. Twice.
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Look, in 2002 we made the playoffs. We weren't going to the Super Bowl but we did manage to do what a couple dozen other teams couldn't do....make the playoffs.
And Botch dismantled that team in that offseason which was stupid..he couldn't get out of the way of his ineptness at drafting..taking two centers two years in a row..because he scewed up..did the same with RB's....he wasted his drafts being redundant and using it to cover mistakes.
In 2007 we won 10 games and would have made the playoffs in most years. We weren't the greatest thing since sliced bread but we did have talent.
Then reality and a big head hit in 08..the Browns got too full of themselves and played like they were on a high from the previous year..the pro bowlers had terrible years..Rac said they were reading too much of their success...
Now that team is virtually gone..but truth is this team has never been loaded with talent..it hasn't.
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exactly. I can only name TWO players that the majority of this board can get behind, being Joe Thomas and Josh Cribbs. one was a first round pick and the other was a gem we snuck out of kent ;P
This isn't a garuntee but chances are high if half a fanbase likes a player and the other half doesn't, somethings amiss. One half's gotta be right on why he's good or bad. It speaks volumes that aside from two, TWO players we as a fanbase can't make up our mind on others? I'd be tempted to through DQwell and Wright into the mix but I hear just as much moaning about them as I do praise, going back to my first point.
Until we can field a team where we have more Joe Thomas's and Josh Cribbs than we do Brandon McDonalds and Derek Andersons, we will continue to struggle. All of these teams listed as 'turning it around in a year' all have big names on those teams that I'm sure everyone can get behind as being playmakers. We are abhorrent in that department.
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But in the past decent players have left and gone on to be good players elswwhere. You and I both know it.
No, we "both" don't know it, Otto.
Give me some examples. Maybe there's some I've forgotten.
I'm talking about guys that were bums here and went on to have solid careers elsewhere.
Those are what you're talking about.
There were guys like Anthony Henry who left, but he wasn't a bad player, and wasn't a bad player with the Cowboys before he got old.
The only two much-maligned players I can think of over the past 11 years are O'hara and Faine. Those players benefited from LEAVING our division, but did have success elsewhere.
Besides them...........who? Quote:
Nearly every year there is an example of a team that pulls it together and exceeds expectations. Some even do it without the benefit of a cupcake schedule. Just once I'd like it to be us.
It was us in 2007, which proves the point.
We had "some" talent, but that team wasn't that good, and was made with pieces which were falling apart. Tucker was a staple of that team, and he's finished. Winslow was exposed for what he is. Edwards wasn't ever going to be a long-term Brown.
We have "some" talent, but it wasn't on an even plane with the rest of the league. We don't have even that talent now because we had to go backwards instead of going forwards.
I agree with Water in that I HATED how we didn't get some solid free agents, but the intent was to bite the bullet now and try and move forward next year and the year after.
We've never had comparable talent to the rest of the NFL. Hell, we've not had comparable talent to 2 of the other 3 teams in our division since '99.
That isn't on Mangini. He carries his own cross. That's on Savage and Davis and Clark.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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To prattle on further about it is pointless.
I don't prattle 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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The only two much-maligned players I can think of over the past 11 years are O'hara and Faine I want to expound on that because it tells a fine story why the perpetrators playing GM and coach screwed up.
I said many times O'Hara was playing out of position at OG..he was a fit at OC, which he played and started when he went to NY.
Botch then drafted Fowler who IMO wasn't a bad center but had he kept O'hara and slotted him there the need for Melvin could have been used(misused  ) on another position..
Faine..well once more Botch screwed up by not taking Steiny then..but going back to try and upgrade his previous choice of a center..and claiming Faine was the most NFL ready linemen..so we had to deal with that pick for how many years?
Phil came in signed Bentley(who went down first play of practice)..used Faine to get DQ...and the rest is history...
And inbetween all that time the team has never ever had a solid competent QB.
Or defense.
All because of bad evaluation..
Notice the turnstile the Browns have had on certain positions?
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The o-line always did better when Ohare was in due to injury. They game where they knocked Cincy out of the playoffs by beating them in week 17 is the game Suggs broke out and had over 100 yards.
Instead of keeping Ohare, Butch always let the players sign elsewhere and try to replace them with new picks. What is the point of always replacing FAs with picks. The team never gains experiance that way. You have to keep some players when their first contract is up and keep them until they get beat out by the rookies instead of just replacing them and hope they can step in without much drop off. When they do step in to the game too early in their carrer, the fans start labeling them bust. On this team young players never get to learn behind vets that been in the same system for a few years and get to step in when its their turn. They are pushed in too early and instead of being upgrades, we see a continouse drop off. You will never get a missing piece to the puzzle FA in his prime because players like that want to go to a team that is playoff ready, unless you drasticly over pay for him.
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Bocth didn't believe in BPA..I'm not sure what he actually wanted to do except show he could out think other GM's.
What he showed was that he was not cut out to be a GM..
Linemen weren't highly regarded at all..save they be 5-7th rounders..
Speedy wideouts were enticing even if they couldn't catch..
Speed..thats all he saw..speed..
Aside from K2 he never took the better athletes from Miami , he went for the ones who were ...backups..
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Quote:
Notice the turnstile the Browns have had on certain positions?
What position hasn't been a turnstile the past 10 years?
#gmstrong
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Kicker 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Kicker
good point
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Long snapper..probably Botch's best pick.
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You don't seriously expect me to go over 10 years of rosters and track every player that has left, do you? Suffice it to say that some of the players that left have had some success elsewhere. It isn't a huge number but it's not zero, either. I mean, Jesus, Denver's Defense the last 3 years reads like a Browns Alumni directory.....  And exactly what were you trying to say about Henry? That since he had some talent when he was here that he doesn't count in this discussion?  Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. I'm saying I don't want to hear the "We don't have enough talent" refrain as a constant excuse for the poor coaching and constant losing. It's a never ending circle. When does the FO and staff take responsibility for the team we see on the field? By your logic, virtually never. Maybe that's why we lose. Constantly. This year is down the toilet. Not even a melding of Bill Parcells, Vince Lombardi and Joe Gibbs could win with this team (although I bet they'd win more than Mangenius will). But what I don't want to hear next year at this time if we have a similar record is how Mangini needs a couple more years to right the ship. Sorry, I want to watch a playoff game involving the Browns in person before I die. I figure that means they've realistically got about 30 years to do it. Not looking good at this point.
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Otto - What players are you talking about .. We have been one of the worst drafting teams in the NFL the last ten years ..
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If you think that building a winner is a 4 or 5 year project, you are an idiot. Saints, Falcons, and Dolphins are a perfect example.
That's a gross oversimplification.
Unlike the Browns, each of those teams had some real core players to build around, which is to say they had an overall talent level that we simply don't have.
.
I did some research and here are the starters of the 2007 dolphins, and falcons. I also pulled up the 2005 starters for the saints. pre-brees era.
2007 Atlants Falcons
QB Joey Harrington
RB Warrick Dunn
FB Ovie Mughelli
WR Joe Horn
WR Roddy White
WR Michael Jenkins
WR Laurent Robinson
TE Alge Crumpler
LT Wayne Gandy
LG Justin Blalock
C Todd McClure
RG Kynan Forney
RT Tyson Clabo
RT Todd Weiner
Defensive Starters
LDE Jamaal Anderson
LDT Grady Jackson
RDT Jonathan Babineaux
RDE John Abraham
LLB Michael Boley
MLB Keith Brooking
RLB Demorrio Williams
LCB DeAngelo Hall
RCB Chris Houston
SS Lawyer Milloy
FS Chris Crocker
Out of those starters only 9 still starts for the 2009 falcons. I would say Abraham & White were probably the only guys on the 2007 team that you would consider elite talents, and guys to build around. I'm not sure in 07 white was a core guy, since he wasn't producing until 08.I may even give you Blaylock, but he was a rookie. Houston , Anderson and Babineaux are solid contributors, but nothing spectacular. 2 of their starters on this years o-line were undrafted free agents (klabo & dahl).
When I compare the browns of 09 to the falcons of 07, I don't see a wide talent margin. They had guys like Brooking, Boley, Jackson, and Hall, who do have talent, but they are no longer with the team, so you can't include them in their current success. I want to talk about guys that are still on the team from the 07 roster.
On to the 2007 Miami Dolphins starters:
QB Cleo Lemon
QB Trent Green
RB Ronnie Brown
FB Reagan Mauia
WR Marty Booker
WR Ted Ginn Jr.
WR Chris Chambers
TE David Martin
LT Vernon Carey
LG Chris Liwienski
C Samson Satele
RG Rex Hadnot
RT L.J. Shelton
Defensive Starters
LDE Matt Roth
LDT Keith Traylor
RDT Vonnie Holliday
RDT Rodrique Wright
RDE Jason Taylor*
LLB Channing Crowder
LLB Donnie Spragan
MLB Derrick Pope
MLB Zach Thomas
RLB Joey Porter
LCB Michael Lehan
LCB Travis Daniels
RCB Will Allen
SS Jason Allen
FS Renaldo Hill
I see Porter, Brown, Carey, Crowder, Allen, and Maybe Ginn as guys you could build your team around. Again not an abundance of talent from the 07 dolphins that is going to overwhelm you. Parcells built this team in 08 when he drafted Long, and hit big on o-lineman smiley, and grove. Plus he brought in pennington. He hit on the right free agents and picks. he definitely wasn't riding cam cameron's 2007 disaster.
Last but not least the 05 saints.
Offensive Starters
QB Aaron Brooks
RB Deuce McAllister
FB Mike Karney
WR Joe Horn
WR Donte Stallworth
TE Ernie Conwell
TE Zachary Hilton
LT Wayne Gandy
LG Kendyl Jacox
C LeCharles Bentley*
RG Montrae Holland
RG Jermane Mayberry
RT Jammal Brown
Defensive Starters
LDE Darren Howard
LDE Will Smith
LDT Brian Young
RDT Willie Whitehead
RDE Charles Grant
LLB Sedrick Hodge
MLB Courtney Watson
RLB Colby Bockwoldt
LCB Mike McKenzie
RCB Fred Thomas
SS Dwight Smith
FS Josh Bullocks
Only Grant, Smith, and Brown are still holdovers as starters from the 05 saints. Mcalister and Horn were on the downside of their careers, so I don't give them too much credit for the turn-around. Mike mckenzie was a solid guy, but he's not with them anymore. If I had to give credit, it would be to Drew Brees, Sean Peyton, the front office for signing & drafting the right free agents. If you look at the saints from 05-06, they started 4 new offensive lineman. Brown was the only holdover. That's saying a whole lot to where their talent level was from the previous year. To be blunt, they had the talent level of a last place team, which they were.
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I mean, Jesus, Denver's Defense the last 3 years reads like a Browns Alumni directory.....
No need for formalities, Otto. You can just call me Toad. 
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You don't seriously expect me to go over 10 years of rosters and track every player that has left, do you? Suffice it to say that some of the players that left have had some success elsewhere.
Well, you did state quite definitively that we've had plenty of players go elsewhere and become winners. Since I disagree, I asked you to give me a few because I didn't remember any.
I mean that's what we do around here........If someone makes a blanket statement it needs to be backed up.
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Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. I'm saying I don't want to hear the "We don't have enough talent" refrain as a constant excuse for the poor coaching and constant losing. It's a never ending circle.
Well, no, that isn't an excuse as it pertains to a specific coach and his ability to teach and motivate.
The flipside is that it IS a reason why each successive coach that's gotten here has had to start pushing the rock up the hill, because they didn't have much to work with.
It's never just one thing, it has to be a combination of coaching and player acquisition. That's why I say blaming Mangini for this mess is short-sighted, but also why I say he has to carry his own cross for his own decisions.
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But what I don't want to hear next year at this time if we have a similar record is how Mangini needs a couple more years to right the ship.
No, he should be moving in a good direction next year. But what you, me, and the rest of the fans must consider is that we've had a purge of people on this roster, and no amount of draft picks and free agent acquisitions in one year will make them a winner.
Even a slew of 1st round picks wouldn't make this team a winner in 2010 because they'd still have to develop. The good news is that we'll be in great cap shape and have some high picks. The bad news is we can't possibly become a contender by next year because there are just too many holes to fill.
So we're right back to the 3-year plan.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Out of those starters only 9 still starts for the 2009 falcons.
I'm impressed with "only" 9 starters from 2007 still starting. That's indicative of a good foundation.
Keep in mind that an "overall talent level" doesn't mean "elite" starters or even starters at all.
Consider a guy like Jerious Norwood, who leads the league in yards per rush over the last four years. During that time, he's rushed for 1800 yards, caught for 772 yards, and has 3000 kick-return yards.
That's the kind of guy that we've never had, and the kind of guy I'm talking about. Quote:
I'm not sure in 07 white was a core guy, since he wasn't producing until 08.I may even give you Blaylock, but he was a rookie.
Hehehe...........Trella, you're operating on the premise that you must KNOW they are core players at the time you drafted them in order for them to count That isn't right. They ARE core players because we're talking about the here and now looking back at 2007. If they WEREN'T core players, that team wouldn't be this good, and they wouldn't be part of the conversation
Let me back up here and keep this tidier by not dissecting the other 2 teams....
Let's go back to the original comment that got this entire track started.....
The poster used three teams as examples of why you don't have to wait 3-5 years to build a winner.
It seems my saying of the week right now is:
"Don't confuse what's possible with what's plausible."
For every team that has success building in a 3-year window, I can give you MORE teams that have failed to build during that time.
In fact, use the Saints and the Dolphins again:
Brees was a huge gamble that's paid off.
Pennington was a huge gamble that now hasn't, because he's out for the year.
It's POSSIBLE to take a team as devoid of talent as the Browns and make them a winner in 2 years, but it's not PROBABLE, not unless a team GM or President decides to risk the cap and draft picks to acquire more talent. That's what Snyder has done and it's failed miserably, and that's what Savage did when he threw the dice on Quinn and high-priced free agents.
I don't operate in "possible." I operate in "plausible" because the former gives false hope and tends to be very risky, leading to more losing. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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To name a few ex Browns that have went on to be succesful or contributing on a winner elsewhere I have a few right off the top of my head. Im not adding players that were traded, just cut and not re-signed.
Greg Spires-Tampa
Shaun Ohare- Giants
Antonio Bryant- San Fran, Tampa
Roman Oben-Tampa or Giants
Orlando Brown
Andra Davis- Denver
Chaun Thompson- Houston
Nick Eason- Pittsburgh
Anthony Henry- Dallas
Cris Crocker- Atlanta now with Cincy
Brian Russel- Seattle
Gardocki- Pittsburgh
Scott Frost- Washington
Dropcutt- Jacksonville, Detroit (good riddance but Jax made the playoffs with him)
Jeff Garcia- Philly, Tampa
Reuben Droughns- Giants (not sure if he was on SB roster)
Players that were traded and are having success or playing on a winning team
Winslow- Tampa more recieving yards and TD than all browns combined
Bodden- Patriots
Quincy Morgao- Pittsburgh, Dallas
Jeff Faine- Saints, Tampa
Players that went to losing teams and played after they left not big impact
Barry Stokes- Giants
Earl Holmes- Detroit
Wohlabaugh-?
Corey McIntyer- Saints
The d-lineman that went on to Denver- Lang, Warren. Ekuban, Brown, Mckinnley
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I don't operate in "possible." I operate in "plausible" because the former gives false hope and tends to be very risky, leading to more losing.
when you say operate, that makes it sound like thats how you put a team together. Not, how you would put a team together. Unless you mean thats how you operate on Madden.
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To name a few ex Browns that have went on to be succesful or contributing on a winner elsewhere I have a few right off the top of my head. Im not adding players that were traded, just cut and not re-signed.
Greg Spires-Tampa
Shaun Ohare- Giants
Antonio Bryant- San Fran, Tampa
Roman Oben-Tampa or Giants
Orlando Brown
Andra Davis- Denver
Chaun Thompson- Houston
Nick Eason- Pittsburgh
I stopped it there because you totally lost context of the conversation.
"Core" players are guys we've drafted or developed who represent long-term fixes since we've been back in 99.
Listing someone like Antonio Bryant doesn't fit the bill.
You then listed Chump Thompson.
Those aren't core players. Those are free agents who've come and gone or backups which remain just that.
Apples and oranges.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
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I don't operate in "possible." I operate in "plausible" because the former gives false hope and tends to be very risky, leading to more losing.
when you say operate, that makes it sound like thats how you put a team together. Not, how you would put a team together. Unless you mean thats how you operate on Madden.
Whatever  Gettin' chippy 'cause people piling on you, eh?
Moving on.........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Chaun Thompson is a core player on specail teams and can backup any LB spot in the 3-4. Anything that is the opposite of what you say is lost context of the conversation. Apples and oranges is an easy cop out of a conversation/debate. Some people use other things as an example and apple and oranges is always the easy way out instead of trying to prove a point. But I guess thats how you operate. I know 2 people that use that phrase and they both love to argue and debate. They bring that up every time they dont know what to say. You stop it right there but continue to add something that you think makes you right farter down the line but skip over everything else. Apples and oranges.
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Well, you did state quite definitively that we've had plenty of players go elsewhere and become winners.
No, what I said was we've had decent players go on to other teams and become good players for that team. I did not say "plenty". I did say a good number and I guess to conclusively prove that I would have to go back and look. Which I may do, but not tonite. I don't care that much about this argument, frankly.
I also wasn't implying that those players were only draft picks of the Browns. Certainly, our draft record is not that good. But some of our draft picks have gone on to play decently elsewhere, too.
Anyway, my point all along was that I'm tired of experts such as yourself telling me to be patient that this coach needs more time to implement his "vision". For God's sake it's not rocket science. Just how tough can it be to make a team into a winner. Those inbred ketchup eaters in Pennsylvania get one damn near every year. All I'm asking for is, say, once every 3 years. Not a Super Bowl, although that would be nice. No, just a playoff appearance once in a while.
Say what you will but throwing out the "no decent players" claim every 2 years is just an excuse. No more, no less.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Hes the kind of person who says that the team isnt going to be very good when we are all being optimistic and talking about the players we like. Then when the season starts and we talk about what we dont like on the team, he comes around and defends them.
Anything to argue or debate because he feeds on trying to prove people wrong. Its some kind of narcissist superiority complex.
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Anyway, my point all along was that I'm tired of experts such as yourself telling me to be patient that this coach needs more time to implement his "vision".
As you should be tired because it's a load of crap. The reason we've sucked since we've come back can be summed up with the following:
*We still to this day have no QB - the most important position on the field.
*Starting over every 4 years.
*Playing in a division with two of the toughest defenses this league has ever seen in the last 10 years.
We've drafted well enough to field a competitive team. We are just missing on those one or two impact players on each side of the ball that can bring it all together. And just when we get one or two of them, we start over with a new regime, new philosophy, and a guy that wants his own guys.
That's it in a nutshell. You are correct. It isn't rocket science. If we didn't play in a division with the Rats and Stoolers, we might have been able to squeak out a couple more 8-8s or even a 9-7 or two. But playing in a division with those two teams just magnifies the other issues of not having a top half of the league QB and continuously starting over.
Hell, we have the BEST special teams player in the league right now. We have the best LT in the game right now and a left side of the line that rivals anyone's. We also have one of the best DTs in the game. Talk about the start of a nice core and some foundation pieces.
Our problem - which it always has been - is QB, constant change in regimes, and division.
Find the QB, keep Mangini for longer than 4 years, and we'll start to see a turnaround.
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Say what you will but throwing out the "no decent players" claim every 2 years is just an excuse. No more, no less.
You are correct.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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"No, what I said was we've had decent players go on to other teams and become good players for that team."
didn't want to pile on to the Legalize thing so I chose you...lol 
Who?
O'Hara maybe first and foremost.
Faine...took some time - but look at his division and the lack of 3-4 teams.
Anthony Henry had some OK seasons with Dallas.
Oben left us after having Micro-Fracture surgery then a very shaky and usually career ending last ditch surgery. He was one of the first that had a successful surgery in the Football sports world. Definitely gave Tampa some quality starts for about 3 years after we let him go...then he was pretty much done.
Spires had two season worth mentioning and one that he provided impact and many talked about him as the 2nd coming...then poof he disappeared almost as quick as he arrived.
Bodden? Heck WRs look good playing for their system in NE...he didn't do so well in Detroit.
KW2...definitely has talent and is ripping up the NFC South weak D's and helping the Bucs amass many wins in the process. 
We haven't let many starters slip through our fingertips. I don't know what is more sad...the fact that we didn't.
Bryant? he's been a wandering around - maybe he finally matured. Is that him and KW2 ripping it up together...
I agree with you in a sense this Franchise NEEDS STABILITY...and it starts with the Coaching staff if you ask me.
Every time we get a change so does half the roster.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Our problem - which it always has been - is QB, constant change in regimes, and division.
Find the QB, keep Mangini for longer than 4 years, and we'll start to see a turnaround.
Here's where we diverge.
1. I think we still may have the right QB on the roster. No need to get into it here as every damn thread these days is a QB thread.
2. I do not have faith in the Mangini / Kokinis leadership. I do not believe we'll see success with them regardless of how long we stay with them. Between the way Mangini treats his players and the player evaluation skill of Kokinis we have very little chance for success.
The reason we've had no continuity is that we've had bad people in place. Everyone knows continuity is a good thing. Every person employed by the NFL believes it's the most important thing in the world! Why???...so they can have an excuse to keep their job in bad times.
I ask you one question. We turned over 50% of the roster already. Name one difference maker. One guy that you believe has the ability to be one of the anchors on a championship caliber team.
We have BECOME a bad team. Players can't stand Mangini.
What does continuity get us?
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Say what you will but throwing out the "no decent players" claim every 2 years is just an excuse. No more, no less.
You are correct.
I also agree with that 100%
eotab, apples and oranges
Spires didnt get much of a chance to do anything here but went on to Tampa and was a big piece of Tampa SB run in the cover 2 defense.
But that also proves to a very very good point one other poster made. The Browns need an impact player on both sides of the ball that makes an average teammate look above average.
Like what what made DA look good was a good o-line with Lewis having something to prove and JJ, Winslow and Edwards making good catches off of bad throws.
Ray Lewis makes any teammate look above average. All of his teammates either get franchised or get big paychecks to go to other teams that Baltimore cant match. His teammates on defense dont look nowhere near as good as they did playing next to Lewis. Like the LB that New England picked up. Paying high priced FAs isnt there thing but they signed a LB a couple years back that isnt making much of an impact since he was signed.
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Addailus Thomas would be the guy. I also remember Edgerton Hartwell. He played with Lewis, signed a huge deal with atlanta, and completely fell off the map in a few years.
You could also bring up Gary Baxter, Duane Starks, and Jaime Sharper as ex raven busts.
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Ed Hartwell had injury problems. Bart Scott is having plenty of success with the Jets. Also, I think it has more to do with the players leaving Rex Ryan than Ray Lewis.
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Hes the kind of person who says that the team isnt going to be very good when we are all being optimistic and talking about the players we like. Then when the season starts and we talk about what we dont like on the team, he comes around and defends them.
Anything to argue or debate because he feeds on trying to prove people wrong. Its some kind of narcissist superiority complex.
It's called not being a knee-jerkin' fan, but I wouldn't expect you to get it.
Guys like you get WAAAAAAAY up at the start because you don't know we lack talent, then get WAAAAAAAAAAY down because you don't understand that it wasn't your beliefs that were flawed, but instead believe that it's someone else's fault.
At least I now know where your mind is at. I might as well debate rocket science with Bubbles the Chimp. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Back off frog dude. I don't like being the butt of your jokes. 
#gmstrong
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Anyway, my point all along was that I'm tired of experts such as yourself telling me to be patient that this coach needs more time to implement his "vision". For God's sake it's not rocket science. Just how tough can it be to make a team into a winner.
If it were really that easy, the guys in the NFL wouldn't make millions of dollars per year without a spotless track record.
I'd then respond to your quoted comment by saying that bangin' on any coach after being handed this mess is premature.
Remember how many people were swearing our center was a blown pick after two games, only to see him really play well the last few. Same goes for Mangini. There isn't a coach in the entire history of the league that could have made this bunch a winner in the first year, so being patient isn't an option, it's a requisite.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Back off frog dude. I don't like being the butt of your jokes.
If ONLY he would have been holding a banana!!!!!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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clicking, 'toad.
I like Mangini, he seems like a decent enough guy in the press conferences.
So far I am cautiously optimistic about what Mangini is doing. Not crazy about the '09 draft - aside from an emerging Alex Mack - but there's a long way to go until we can pass judgement.
One thing he HAS done is cut down on the # of penalties, a product of discipline. He might be a control freak, but many good coaches are - not just in football, either. And I don't think he's an evil taskmasker or a bad person who doesn't care about his players; you can tell by the way he talks about his kids. Obviously I don't know the guy personally but what I see tells me he's an OK guy.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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so being patient isn't an option
Well, ya got one thing right in all of this......... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Every person employed by the NFL believes it's the most important thing in the world! Why???...so they can have an excuse to keep their job in bad times.
As Elvis would say, "Thank you....Thank you very much......"
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Eric Mangini Thread
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