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It comes down to how the opposing defense can play us:
DA = they must respect the deep ball b/c he has the arm to throw it. Can't just sit underneath and wait for a dump off.
BQ = no need to respect anything past 5 yards. And when you play a good D like the Ravens, they just eat that up alive.
Well, that's objective. 
How about this...
DA = Play the run and take away the deep routes, make him go 4 or 5 yards at a time and wait for him to screw it up, because he will.
It's a catch 22 QB conundrum! Our guy just aint here! I've accepted it, moved on, willing to wait while they bring in a vet or suffer with one of these two yahoos and build the entire team then draft a stud QB..whatever! We dont' have the answer on the roster! That I'm fairly sure of!
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All Lerner can do is hire the guys he thinks can get it done. He can't play linebacker. Or be the coach.
And speaking of our coach we're eight months into Mangini's tenure. I'd say giving him a chance would be the wisest choice.
let me use ur words,,,, "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS" 
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Oh, yeah you're right I guess, most of your posts haven't been about calling out Lerner.
Why not ??? everyone either wants to call out BQ or DA.. How about getting to the root of the problems ??? 
Of all the people in the organization. I think Lerner is the one least likely to leave. So you might as well focus your attention to the problem areas that CAN be addressed.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Oh, yeah you're right I guess, most of your posts haven't been about calling out Lerner.
Why not ??? everyone either wants to call out BQ or DA.. How about getting to the root of the problems ???
Of all the people in the organization. I think Lerner is the one least likely to leave. So you might as well focus your attention to the problem areas that CAN be addressed.
Who BETTER can address the PROBLEMS ,, than Randy,"the OWNER" ?? 
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j/c
at this point, it really is the lesser of two evils. we have one guy who will not get any yards, is afraid, and can't find the receivers. we have another guy who isn't as ball-controlled, will make the occasional head-scratcher, and has less mobility.
that said, you still gotta pick anderson to start. i'll say right here what everyone is thinking already, which is yes, i supported DA more than quinn and no, i'm not happy that quinn did not pan out. with that said, here's why you gotta go with anderson:
1) quinn will not move the ball. he was 6/8 and threw for 34 yards in a half. let me repeat that: THIRTY FOUR yards in a freaking HALF. i'm not going to focus on the interception because this is limiting enough as it is. watching the play calling, despite the score, we were calling, what felt like, 75% run plays. quinn is too limiting to our offense on the field. if daboll/mangini do not have enough faith in him to let him actually play qb, there is no reason for him to be in there. all he'd be would be a glorified decoy. you can't have a qb decoy.
2) anderson spread out the defense yesterday. something so simple that a few posters mentioned is how we'd see less defenders in the box with anderson in. well sure enough, after a couple nice intermediate throws, one drive DOUBLING quinn's 1st half production, suddenly, we were looking at 5-6 defenders in the box instead of 8. suddenly, instead of the rushing plays for negative yardage, we were getting 3-4 yards (not great but still better, considering the only thing changed was a qb).
3) the entire team played slow in the first half. i even saw cribbs jogging on the kick returns. when anderson came in, the receivers ran harder and the defense even played harder. maybe it's because the offense stayed on the field for one drive or maybe it's a mental lift from doubting the offense a little less, but they played better.
4) disclaimer: this one is pure speculation on my part. quinn went over to talk to furrey after DA's first int. furrey refused to meet quinn's eyes. quinn was talking to him and furrey just stared away to his left, no reactions. at this point, i would not be surprised if players are starting to sour on quinn. fair or not is irrelevant. being a first year starter (or former-starter), you earn your leadership. i know people say crab about how he's a leader but the first step to earning that respect is to perform on the field. you should you can do your job and people will follow. quinn showed he's doing everything but performing on the field. it's clear his teammates don't have faith in him so when he's trying to act like a leader now, no one will follow and instead will be annoyed. put DA in, let him get his guys loose, and they can be a lot better. they might not be good, but they'll be better.
like people said, lesser of the two evils. we'll re-evaluate at the end of the season.
someone mentioned that DA actually held on to the ball more this time than in the past and i agree as well. he wasn't getting a lot of them out as quickly as before. that said, he checked down the ball well and threw soft/accurate balls. finding that silver lining, and as i've said all along, he improved there.
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I thinks its a matter of not anticipating routes. In the NFL people aren't usually just wide open like in back yard football. Good QB's will throw the ball while the consumer is running his route and throw the ball to a spot.
Gotta say in all my years of football I've never seen a receiver called a "consumer" hehehe.
But to your point, you're EXACTLY right. At least that's one factor in all this.
Take it from me when I say one of the hardest things to do as a fan is to watch a guy play on TV and make assumptions on his ability to throw in college. The throwing lanes and passing windows are so much wider and larger, and close up so much more slowly. It's easy to hide an inaccurate QB because of those factors, think Tim Couch. On TV, Quinn looked like an accurate QB to most people, but that didn't make him an accurate NFL quarterback. That accuracy can still come, but what I've seen in the past with young QB's coming into the league is that they are used to throwing to receivers who are already open and stay open in college, where in the NFL they absolutely must throw to receivers who are coming open but don't stay open for long.
Quinn is afraid to go downfield because he doesn't see open receivers, and deep down doesn't feel confident that he can throw to a guy anticipating he is going to get open. That's an accuracy issue because he doesn't feel he can fit the ball into those tight windows.
The problem now is that nobody thought Quinn would be this far behind other NFL QB's. Even people like myself that didn't buy all the hype and doubted his readiness to play didn't expect to see him playing this poorly. Unfortunately, Quinn clearly isn't ready to be under center. He's got some mental issues to overcome before he can go back out there.
He isn't a finished product, but he isn't ready for this. Not yet.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It comes down to how the opposing defense can play us:
DA = they must respect the deep ball b/c he has the arm to throw it. Can't just sit underneath and wait for a dump off.
BQ = no need to respect anything past 5 yards. And when you play a good D like the Ravens, they just eat that up alive.
Well, that's objective.
How about this...
DA = Play the run and take away the deep routes, make him go 4 or 5 yards at a time and wait for him to screw it up, because he will.
And I'll take that over what we've seen w/ BQ.
Therefore...
DA > BQ
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I think it's all three..but I have to say I've seen DA in action for a full year and a half..and I know he doesn't read coverages well, and he'll force a throw.
Brady..I just don't know what to make of it..it's like he doesn't feel he can get the ball there..
Now the recievers..I really don't see them running routes that help either QB...I want to see what Robo has..we need to flood the recievers and take shots.
You are right on target when it comes to DA. He is not a long term answer. The problem I have is Quinn was told to go downfield yet he still hasn't. I have to assume (beyond what mangini already said) that receivers are open at times. I do not think we can keep playing him if he refuses to take any chances. He will only fail more and more. That will be the worst possible thing in my mind for Quinn. I think he really needs to be sat and given a chance to recover mentally. I still think he can be a viable QB but he has to get through his mental block.
#gmstrong
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I'd like to know where this block came from..he looks nothing like he has previously..
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Oh, yeah you're right I guess, most of your posts haven't been about calling out Lerner.
Why not ??? everyone either wants to call out BQ or DA.. How about getting to the root of the problems ???
Of all the people in the organization. I think Lerner is the one least likely to leave. So you might as well focus your attention to the problem areas that CAN be addressed.
Who BETTER can address the PROBLEMS ,, than Randy,"the OWNER" ??
And what's your solution to that ROOT then?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I honestly think that both Qb are Seeing the same thing. Nobody open. One is unwilling to force it, and one throws it deep no matter what.
Thank you. I've been saying the same thing for two weeks.
Sure there are times where no one is getting open. That's when you need to check down. The thing is if you never throw the ball down field then it is more than receivers not getting open. mangini said as much last week. DA was able to find receivers open at times. He was able to hit receivers more than 10 yards down field. Did Quinn even attempt one pass that far yesterday?
DA will throw into double coverage. The thing is all NFL QBs do. The difference is DA doesn't always throw the ball accurately enough when he does. DA also throws a lot of picks because he simply doesn't use good mechanics. His last pick he was throwing the ball off of his back foot trying to get it off before being hit. The pass was a terrible throw and was an easy pick.
What I'm trying to say is it's not as easy as some are trying to portray. DA isn't bad just because he throws into coverage. DA doesn't seem to have a decent football IQ. Quinn was taught-ed as having a good football IQ. He doesn't seem to trust himself at all. If we can combine the two we probably could have a good QB. Unfortunately we can't so we have two extremes.
#gmstrong
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I'd like to know where this block came from..he looks nothing like he has previously..
Exactly. That's why I would sit him until he can figure it out.
#gmstrong
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He was able to hit receivers more than 10 yards down field. Did Quinn even attempt one pass that far yesterday?
All I know is that when Anderson was in the game, he found some receivers running down the field.
Did he make some really bad decisions? Damn straight he did, but he PROVED receivers were open.
Quinn just isn't capable of getting them the ball right now (and "if ever" has become a real question).
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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He's capable of getting them the ball..it's his judgement thats I'm suspecting..not his arm..even with Dorsey's noodle arm he went downfield..something is prohibiting Quinn from taking downfield shots..what it is no one but him knows..
However DA's IQ bugs me..
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I know there’s no 30-point play out there, but I tried,” Anderson said. “I was forced to throw it. I just didn’t get enough air on the ball on the (deep) one to Braylon. I obviously forced a couple, but that’s what happens.”
Thats what happens... not anything about I need to pick my shots..or be careful..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/28/09 01:57 PM.
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I know why he isn't going downfield, but I'm "just a fan" so I can't possibly know the real reasons 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That remark has nothing to do with me..I'm a fan and I evaluate players..so whats your theory?
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i'd go as far as just saying "lack of talent" will probably do it.
but what do i know, i'm just the guy who's been saying this all along instead of being swept by all the hype.
toot toot (that's my horn)
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However DA's IQ bugs me
Isn't football IQ something that will improve over time with experience?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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It's always a combination of things. In Quinn's case...........
1) In many ways, he was a one-man show at ND. His lines weren't always good, so his mental clock runs faster than many NFL QB's.
2) In college, the receivers were open earlier and longer than they are in the NFL. Those windows opened quicker and stayed open, so Quinn could see an open receiver and throw him the ball. Here in the NFL, Quinn doesn't yet know how to throw to a covered receiver who's breaking open. He's waiting for them to get open, and when that's combined with his mental clock that says it's time to get the ball out, he's ready to dump the ball too quickly.
3) Holding onto the ball and not knowing he has to throw to a receiver who hasn't yet come open leads to pressure from the rush. This speeds up his mental clock even more, causing him to want to checkdown even faster.
4) No chemistry with our 2nd round receivers, primarily because Mangenious has continued with the idiocy of making Cribbs a starting receiver.
5) Deep down, Quinn knows he isn't that accurate going down the field. When combined with the tight windows to throw into at the NFL level, he isn't confident enough to make deep throws that require accuracy, so he simply isn't attempting it.
6) He's simply afraid to throw INT's, so he's keeping the throws short.
A combination of things has led him to this point. The bottom line is that Quinn is afraid. That's an unfortunate summary that doesn't paint the entire picture in detail, but it's factual none-the-less.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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O.k this isn't different than what you said before..sooo I will respond to one thing..
3) Holding onto the ball and not knowing he has to throw to a receiver who hasn't yet come open leads to pressure from the rush. This speeds up his mental clock even more, causing him to want to checkdown even faster.
I'll go there..timing the routes..he should know you have to get it out before the guy makes his break(whether it's a comeback/slant/hook or cross ...he's got to take that chance..checking down through every progrssion also gets you sacked..because the ball should have come out quicker..
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A combination of things has led him to this point. The bottom line is that Quinn is afraid. That's an unfortunate summary that doesn't paint the entire picture in detail, but it's factual none-the-less.
Here's what irks me... Quinn was NEVER this timid before. Something that this regime has drilled into Brady's head (probably the ball control philosophy) has him playing completely unsure of himself and afraid to make any mistakes. He's also seen that doing so will get him benched. So what do you do? Play him next week and let him know that if he's going to keep dumping down and not making plays, he'll sit again. Force him to air it out and play like a real NFL QB and if not, give DA another crack.
At this point, I sure hope that Brady has figured out that putting up under 50 yards of passing offense in a half just isn't going to cut it.
We're... we're good?
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why blame the regime when he played the exact same way with the last one? he was always quick to check down. the difference is he's afraid now because the regime is telling him to throw to the open receivers further away instead of checking down early.
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I still do not understand why people will not get behind DA as the leader of this team.
He has shown that he can play ball. And yet everyone wants to screw around with Quinn, some in more ways than others.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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why blame the regime when he played the exact same way with the last one? he was always quick to check down. the difference is he's afraid now because the regime is telling him to throw to the open receivers further away instead of checking down early.
He never checked down like this. He isn't even going through all of his progressions this year unless he's deliberately being told to dump earlier than he should. There really aren't that many open receivers by the way... DA found some here and there but also forced a ton when they couldn't get open. Cribbs (who barely even cracked the WR lineup under Romeo) being counted on as a #2 should tell you all you need to know. There is literally no reason why Robiskie (who was supposed to be the most NFL ready receiver in the draft) should be inactive on game day. Just play your "talent" and let's see what happens. It can't get much worse...
We're... we're good?
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I still do not understand why people will not get behind DA as the leader of this team.
He has shown that he can play ball. And yet everyone wants to screw around with Quinn, some in more ways than others.
He came in and seized his opportunity by chucking 3 picks in one half. The reason why people can't get behind DA as a leader is because he's only a good leader when things are going well and he's only a good QB when he's feeling it. There needs to be some consistency from leadership and DA has little to none of it. I don't care if Brady is the answer but man, it has to be clear by now that it's not DA...
We're... we're good?
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That is the most asinine thing I have ever read.
How do YOU know that DA is not a leader?
How do you know that he can't get better.
He sure as hell delivered his first year as starter.
And he didn't play all that bad his second year either.
Its is 100% idiocy on this board when it comes to DA.
Everytime I bring up 2007 there are million posters that make millions excuses that discount his performance that year.
And then, those same posters bring up 2008, and when I attribute that year to anything other than DA just plain sucking----It's said I am making excuses.
DA has a great arm, he put up 29 td's his first year as starter.
His skills FORCE a D to keep help overtop, allowing us more room for running t he ball, and underneath passes.
And yet, everyone on the board seems to think he is downright bad.
WHY????
It makes absolutely no sense.
All I see is people discounting his achievements and saying he will never be a QB.
He is the better option. He can make all the throw's and has made all the throw's.
Decision making is something that will come with experience. If he play's the game longer he will gain experience and grow as a QB. Cuz thats what NFL QB's do-----and he is an NFL QB.
This board is full of supposed football guru's and yet everyone dismisses a potential stud at QB b/c they want something else.
Ridiculous.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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That is the most asinine thing I have ever read.
How do YOU know that DA is not a leader?
How do you know that he can't get better.
He sure as hell delivered his first year as starter.
And he didn't play all that bad his second year either.
Its is 100% idiocy on this board when it comes to DA.
Everytime I bring up 2007 there are million posters that make millions excuses that discount his performance that year.
U sound like U need a bib..or a container before U bust something..
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momass started yesterday's game and quinn does check down that much. i've charted it since he was a rookie, the plain dealer (known as the quinn humpers) even questioned his dink and dunk ness. the only time he tried for more was this preseason but it was more of an attempt to prove his detractors wrong. correct that, he tried that last season in the 3rd preseason game and failed misterably. even time quinn played for us, it was quick check downs. that's why k2 loved him and it's why he drove me nuts.
DA may not be a good qb but he's by far the best option we have. there are still players on that team that enjoyed the 07 success and you can bet anything that they rememeber what that felt like and who led them to it. it's clear they gave up on quinn. the offense doesn't play hard for him, the players aren't responding to him, and the rest of the team doubts him. DA will commit turnovers but he'll also generate points, something quinn cannot do.
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Nice retort.
DA is the better QB, and if Mangini does the right thing, and decides to go with him---then we will be better off in the long run.
The longer we throw Quinn in there, the worse things are going to get.
Those are the facts.
DA had a great year his very FIRST year as starter. He has the tools to keep Defenses honest.
Quinn has done nothing to unseat him.
Quinn has done nothing to justify any more playtime.
Bottomline.
You wanna talk about what you claim to know about DA---go ahead. Enlighten me on his lack of future in the league.
What do you see that tells you he isn't an NFL QB---cause I sure as heck don't see it.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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You have ONE valid point in your argument...
-When DA is on, he's one of the best, if not the best QB's in the league.
But he's not consistent.
That said I'm willing to pull the plug on the Quinn experiment.
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he's the same guy that thought quinn was the fail-proof answer. hardly the end-all figure on qb evaluations.
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There were plenty of games where he wasn't ON, but we still won the game.
Like every QB in the leeague, some have good days and bad days.
Brees doesn't throw for 5 TD's every game, and Manning will throw his share of picks, sometimes two in one game.
Every QB struggles at times.
Especially a young, inexperienced guy like DA.
But he is our best option to go with. And he could very well turn out to be our guy.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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How do YOU know that DA is not a leader?
I know I've seen him pout on the sidelines and to the media when things aren't going his way. Please explain to me how "whining" is a leadership quality?
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How do you know that he can't get better.
Two full seasons worth of games into someone's career and they're still exhibiting the same characteristics that they displayed throughout both high school and college... this usually indicates a pattern.
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He sure as hell delivered his first year as starter.
And he didn't play all that bad his second year either.
Year 1, for half of it, up until teams figured out they could take away the deep ball. Year 2... he had a 66 QB rating. How unbelievably low do your standards have to be to say that isn't bad? An AVERAGE rating is over 80.
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Its is 100% idiocy on this board when it comes to DA.
Everytime I bring up 2007 there are million posters that make millions excuses that discount his performance that year.
And then, those same posters bring up 2008, and when I attribute that year to anything other than DA just plain sucking----It's said I am making excuses.
DA has a great arm, he put up 29 td's his first year as starter.
His skills FORCE a D to keep help overtop, allowing us more room for running t he ball, and underneath passes.
And yet, everyone on the board seems to think he is downright bad.
WHY????
It makes absolutely no sense.
Yes it does. Look up the correlation between wins in the NFL and turnover differential. It's preposterous how good your odds of winning are when you win the turnover battle. Then, realize that the guy you're touting creates 1-3 of those every single game. This is why I don't like DA as a franchise QB. He makes a ton of plays for both teams. I want my QB more concerned about protecting the ball.
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All I see is people discounting his achievements and saying he will never be a QB.
He is a QB... he's just not consistent enough to be a great one.
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He is the better option. He can make all the throw's and has made all the throw's.
Right now, he may be the better option but he's not a good option for the future. He can make all the throws downfield. He can't make many throws consistently well and he only completes about half the ones he does make. I don't care if he has the arm to make all the throws, I want it done consistently.
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Decision making is something that will come with experience. If he play's the game longer he will gain experience and grow as a QB. Cuz thats what NFL QB's do-----and he is an NFL QB.
This board is full of supposed football guru's and yet everyone dismisses a potential stud at QB b/c they want something else.
Ridiculous.
4 years of high school. 4 years of college. 5 years in the pros. 2 years worth of NFL games played and he's STILL the same QB. He's 26 and has a career QB rating of 73.7. How much more time should we give him before we realize what he is?
What is more ridiculous... wanting to see at least one season's worth of games from Quinn before giving up hope because he's been terrible so far and we want to be sure of what we're doing if we write him off and get a replacement, or... watching Anderson come in on Sunday and throw 3 terrible picks, and coming out on Monday championing him and his sub-75 career QB rating, calling him a potential stud?
You want people to give up on Brady after 7 career games, but you won't give up on DA after 32. You, sir, are ridiculous.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172 |
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What's this obsession with Quinn that some people seem to have? People sit there and want him to as our QB just because he's Brady Quinn. It's stupid. So what if Derek Anderson isn't some pretty boy who is going to make commercials.
It's not any more or less of an obsession on Quinn as people have with DA. It's not really an obsession at all. It's not about his name, where he played in college, or his pretty boy look.
It's sticky about seeing if the dude can play over an extended period of time. We all know that DA has his moments. It's time to see if Quinn has his. That's all it is. We MUST find out what QB we are going to go with for the near future. Quinn needs the time to get right.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
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DA may not be a good qb but he's by far the best option we have.
The best option that we have is playing Quinn and letting him prove that he sucks or can cut it so that we can go full speed ahead towards taking a QB at the top of the 2010 draft or move in another direction. If we play QB musical chairs and never give the guy a legitimate chunk of time, how on earth can you justifiably write him off? There are plenty of great QBs that never would've become anything if you cut them off at 7 career games. Give Brady more time so at least you have a better idea of what he can bring to the table. I'd much rather do that than start a mediocre DA, get 2 more wins and then have our off-season plan that much more up in the air.
We're... we're good?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587 |
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So what if Derek Anderson isn't some pretty boy who is going to make commercials.
I actually think Anderson is cuter than Quinn. 
J/K of course.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172 |
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Honestly I don't know what's wrong with BQ... He's always been more of a ball control passer, I agree with that... but in all of his preseason games, in his games last year, any time I've ever seen him... I've never seen him this gun shy and look this rattled.. so I can't really answer your question.
Thats a point I brought up in the locked threads..he didn't look confused/hesitant when he played last year or preseason..something isn't clicking or something is holding him back..himself..what it is I don't know..
I agree with this. Quinn didn't look this bad last year or even in the preseason this year. Something is in his head. He's looks scared to make a mistake, and all the while he's making a lot of them.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
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DA's negatives are well documented on here, and as far as I can see, they are indisputable.
And btw, he is light years ahead of Quinn as a professional QB.
Does Quinn need more time? If we had seen any sign at all that he has what it takes, it would be hard to argue that he doesn't. But has there been a worse string of 3 games put together by any QB that anyone recalls? I can't think of one.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2008
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i respect your opinion but disagree. the offense is just too limited with quinn in and the team clearly do not believe in him, exhibited by ST and defense play.
that said, at least you're sticking to your guns. a lot of quinn homers jumped ship the past couple weeks. at least you're consistent.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 172 |
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I still do not understand why people will not get behind DA as the leader of this team.
He has shown that he can play ball. And yet everyone wants to screw around with Quinn, some in more ways than others.
It has NOTHING to do with not getting behind DA. It has EVERYTHING to do with finding out if Quinn can play. There is no secrets, or special formulas. It's fans like you that can't live with your favorite player not playing.
We could play DA and be just as bad, or win a few meaningless games that does nothing for this team at the present time.
We are in full rebuild mode. That means some players have to play to see if they should be kept. Period!
I hate the losing, and I hate the way this team has looked. But sometimes you have to go through this to get where you want to go. We have to get through the growing pains of a team that has almost nochance to win because they just don't have the overall talent to compete every week.
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