DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Organizational Philosophy

I truly believe that the biggest issue hindering the Browns is the lack of an identity. Pittsburgh and Baltimore are successful because they have an identity. Look at Baltimore; they bring in a special teams coach to run the team and are right back in the thick of things. Is it solely talent? No, it is because they are an organization that has an identity. Both are teams that are extremely physical on both sides of the ball. Both are perennially in the top of the league in not just overall defense, but against the run. Both are smash-mouth offenses that wear down opponents and have solid QBs that can make plays when needed. Pittsburgh is an organization that can replace a legend in Bill Cowher with a rookie coach in Tomlin and win a SB in 2 years.

Randy Lerner needs to envision what he wants HIS team’s identity to be, and when interviewing GMs, pick their brain on their vision. He should hire someone who has the same core beliefs in football philosophy. Then allow that GM to hire a coach who shares the philosophy. If said coach can’t get the job done, you replace them with someone who again shares the organization's philosophy. This way, you are not starting over with a new coach who needs a roster overhaul to align with his philosophy.

I would like to see the Browns become a mirror of what the Ravens and Steelers are philosophically. That said; I would like to see us pursue Kevin Colbert, Pittsburgh's Player Personnel director and in a perfect-world, Bill Cowher. If not Cowher, let Colbert interview and hire who he feels best fits the organizational philosophy.

Kinda funny that both teams you mention got their FO personnel and organizational philosophy directly from the Cleveland Browns tree.

Sad that both teams are more "Cleveland Tradition" than the team that actually owns the colors and history.

Ain't irony sometimes a painful thang?

This has been brought up alot, theres still alot of people that don't understand this part. I was beside myself when I heard that Lerner went out and id exactly what he did in 2004, hired a coach, essentially by himself.

What Lerner needs to do first, is hire a president/CEO...and let that Pres/CEO get a GM. Then the Pres & GM can go out and get their HC.

I think that Marty would make a good president, he doesnt have to work as much as a coach or gm, but the dude whos this game. I think he could be alot like Parcells is in Miami. We need to just as the Phins did, get a football czar to run the franchise. Mike Holmgren is another intriguing guy to be a teams czar.

I think that Colbert, Heckert, Shannahan, even Cowher as a president works. I would love Bernie to take that role as football czar, he knows Randy, Randy respects him, but I duno if Bernie will ever want the gig.

As far as a gm, heres always up and coming personnel people to move into the GM role. This team so badly needs a true football person overseeing it, someone that can also select the correct GM, front office staff, and scouting.

This type of organization safeguards against failing coaches, or change period. When the top of the organization is relatively the same, the overall direction of the franchise is going to continue in the same direction. Which is why teams like the Rats and Steelers can change coaches, and not miss a beat.

The continuity that so many crave on these boards is not from coaches, its from the top end leadership. We cant continue what isnt there...Lerner needs to stay out of football operations, he needs to write checks, cash checks and watch the football czar build the team.

Bernie or Marty,...it sure would end a lot of DawgTalker mudslinging, in my opinion.

I think we have the right GM in place.

The head coach...that's another story.

I'm not arguing that, because on the surface, I'm not sure George has any say in anything.

We need to have organization before we can begin thinking about philosophy.

Hammer, Meet Head of Nail.

He focused hard on tradition with AV even restoring some downtown ancient pub that the rowdies hung out at pre and post game.

All I ask is he bring in a good football guy who in turn brings in hardnosed blu collar players!

I would think Colbert might have the same loyalty factor to the Rooney's that supposedly Cowher has attested to.

Welcome to the board,,, enjoy your stay

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Randy Lerner needs to envision what he wants HIS team’s identity to be, and when interviewing GMs, pick their brain on their vision. He should hire someone who has the same core beliefs in football philosophy

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Is it that you think he didn't ask those questions? I'll bet he did.

And I bet he got the answers he wanted. Saying it and doing it,,, two different things.

All this talk about what Randy should have done and what he shouldn't have done... well, let's just say, it's premature.

3 games into a new regime,, isn't the time to panic...

I can't believe the stuff we are reading on these boards.. I mean, I understand the frustration and even anger.. I'm right there with all of those feelings.

But geez,, Fire the HC, The OC stinks, Trade Braylon edwards, Sign Garcia and trade DA or Quinn to the Dolphins, A thread on going after Campbell next off season... hell, we even have a thread on trying to find a way to get rid of Randy Lerner..

And that's just to name a few.. and NOT one of them will fix the browns today..In fact, I dare say that it will only make them worse..

if you think folks think we look foolish now,, try to think about what we'd look like doing any of those things after 3 freakin games.... regardless of results..

Hey yall... Mangini can very well be the guy...

as I said in another post... We need to go and keep him for the long haul... as in 7+ years...

If it takes 7 years of mediocrity to form a dynasty that will win for years to come.. I'm all for it..

Damon, Thanks for the welcome.. I didn't advocate firing Mangini, not at this point. I was in favor of his hiring. I thought he did a decent job with the Jets. However, the draft was outright puzzling to say the least. We definitely should have gotten more from the Jets for the Sanchez pick, if we traded at all. Also, the right side of the line was clearly more concerning than the C position.

The other issue was the handling of the QB situation. Would naming a QB earlier have helped us somewhat? While I understand how bad we are, I believe that it couldve been handled better. How could either Anderson or Quinn not look over their shoulder with both still on the roster? Pick one and stick with him. Though i know I'm certainly not impressed with either..lol

Good point,..

What does Bill Belichick's timeline in that same venue look like ?

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I was beside myself when I heard that Lerner went out and id exactly what he did in 2004, hired a coach, essentially by himself.

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But Z, it wasn't essentially by himself. I mean, it was if you ignore the advisers he worked with in the search. The most notable being Ernie Acorsi. Now there's a football guy. No doubt about it. He solidly endorsed the hiring of Mangini.

So ya, a lot of things are amiss. But we don't have to stretch or ignore the truth to find them. They are plenty.

He won 5 games his first year, and has never looked back. Mainly because it is complete and total crap that it takes 4-7 seasons to build a winner.

Good GM's and Coaches turn it around usually in year two, and it starts to become obvious that things are different. In fact you do some digging the following coaches were successful essentially within one season. All of these, most of the best coaches in recent times, have turned around their teams within ONE SEASON, not 5, not 7....that is total and complete trash. Continuity is not why teams are successful as some wish to pawn off, its having intelligent football people and coaches.

Tom Coughlin - Jags and Giants

Tony Dungy - Bucs and Colts

Mike Holmgren - Packers and Seahawks

Bill Cowher - Pit

Andy Ried - Philly

Marty Schottenheimer - Browns, Skins, Cheifs, Chargers

Dick Vermeil - Eagles, Cheifs, and Rams

Mike Shanahan- Broncos

Sean Payton - Saints

Bill Parcels - Jets, Pats, Gaints, Cowboys, Dolphins

*All got their teams winning in year two, and showing improvement right away. It doesnt take 4-7 seasons to tell if a coach can do it.

And I hate to admit it, but Rex Ryan is going to be a great coach, and hes already turning his team around with a rookie QB.

Good coaches win, bad coaches lose, good front offices get talent in now, bad front offices piddle around with old has beens and bad drafts. The NFL is a win now league, with the the way the draft and FA is set up, there is no excuse why a team shouldnt and couldnt turn around in 2 offseasons.

EM and his puppet have already butchered one offseason, its showing on the field.

You forgot to add Eric Mangini.. First year turn around for the Jets.

This organization has no philosophy and will continue to not have a philosophy for as long as a "european football" fan is running things. He has precided over a number of blunders during his tenure, the latest being hiring a coach that nobody likes and allowing him to handpick his own GM. It's all just terribly depressing. This organization is now at it's lowest point eleven years into it's rebirth and is showing zero signs of improvement. The only way things turn around is a total top to bottom overhaul starting with the owner. Unfortunately, the Browns are still a profitable venture and you can't fire an owner.
The only way to force change is to stop lining the owners pockets with your hard earned dollars. Unfortunately, Browns fans are arguably the most diehard/loyal in all of sports, so I don't see that happening.

I was actually referring to guys that turned it around, and kept it going, the jets stunk after EM's first year, and then went as far as Brett Favre took them, when he stopped, the entire team fell apart.

The Jets werent stupid, they knew they needed someone else, they went out and made a great hire, and probably got a really great HC for years to come. They add one key FA, a rookie QB, and they are now legit contenders, not resting on one players performance.

People can believe whatever they want, EM was a horrible hire, I said it when he was hired, i'll stand by it. The dude will not make it here long, this will be his last stop as a HC in the league.

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Who in their right mind would want this job?

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Nobody is gonna work under Lerner, until we get a real organizational structure, with someone creditable to go out and hire a HC, your right, nobody is gonna want this job.

Our best hope is Marty, I think he wants to come back in some role, president would just be perfect for him. I would fully trust him to pick out a good front office, and then work with them to get a HC in here. Someone like Marty would get a quality guy in here, and this team would take off, like every team Marty has ever been involved with.

Hi all. Iam new to the board. I would like to answer the question on we need an identity. I have wached the browns for so long that it broke my heart wjen modell sold us out to Baltinore. My thoughts are he should have taken the name with him also. What we have now is a team with only a memory of what use to be. I think we need to start really fresh. What I mean is get rid of the name the uniforms and anything that resembles the browns. These are not the browns, they are the ravens now. What we need is new colors new helments and put the brown and white to bed. Maybe that would give us an identity and be more upbeat.. Just my thoughts

It can work a lot of different ways .. Depends on the people don't you think ?

1. Matt Millen as GM, He picks the coach and drafts the players.. ?

2. Pick your GM, Bill Cowher coaches and drafts players.. ?

3. Bill Parcells, GM/Head coach does it all.. ?

Pick one that works perfect.



And by the way... I see YOUR perfect structure below. The GM was hired 5 days before Mangini was offered a contract BTW.


Cleveland Browns staff .

Front Office
Owner – Randy Lerner
President – Mike Keenan
Senior Vice President – Lewis Merletti
Vice President of Football Administration – Dawn Aponte
General Manager – George Kokinis
Director of Pro Personnel – Steve Sabo
Assistant Director of Pro Personnel – James Kirkland
Associate Director of Pro Personnel – Jim Jauch
Director of Football Administration – Trip MacCracken
Head Coaches

Head Coach – Eric Mangini
Assistant Head Coach/Special Teams – Brad Seely
Offensive Coaches

Offensive Coordinator – Brian Daboll
Quarterbacks – Carl Smith
Running Backs – Gary Brown
Wide Receivers – George McDonald
Tight Ends – Steve Hagen
Offensive Line – George Warhop
Defensive Coaches

Defensive Coordinator – Rob Ryan
Defensive Line – Bryan Cox
Linebackers – Matt Eberflus
Defensive Backs – Jerome Henderson
Defensive Quality Control – Andy Dickerson
Strength and Conditioning

Strength and Conditioning – Tom Myslinski
Assistant Strength and Conditioning – Alan DeGennaro
Assistant Strength and Conditioning – Rick Lyle




Just because it ain't working don't mean the "structure" is messed up. Just the people........

It can work a lot of different ways. If there was one fail proof way of doing the hiring everyone would follow the pattern. The main point and really the only point, is clearly, hiring the right people. That is really all that matters.

That being said, Kokinis may have been technically hired before manigini, but to believe Mangini didn't hire/strongly recommend him is naive.

No doubt the timeline for hirings is blurry.. I actually remember Mangini being here before Kokinis but it really makes no difference if they are the right people. 5 people in the chain of command or one.

I do know I would pay a huge fee on Pay Per View to be in the draft room and privy to previous discussions/debates concerning their thinking and methodology when they turn those cards in.

Why is anybody surprised some of us are already looking ahead to Manginis exit/nervous break down.

Looks like they messed up the second round picks, then they get blown out of the first 3 games. What changed from 1999?

It's real hard to have faith that this boss is any better than the old boss.
I'd like to know that the guy that hires the next coach knows more about football than Randy Lerner.
It would be comforting to see Shanahan take a Parcells type roll with the Browns. IMO It would be much to easier to believe we're actually going to improve.

After buying into the Butch and Romeo experiments I don't have any faith left to give, they have to earn it. So far looks like more tar and feathers to me.

BTW the new shariff seems to have all the personality of a potted plant. Standing on the sidelines with his arms folded ala Romeo. I know it means nothing but wouldn't it be fun to have a coach that seemed to care at least as much as we do?

Posting this because it's on topic and published today...



Cleveland Browns owner Randy Lerner's mistakes have not all been obvious: Bill Livingston

By Bill Livingston
September 29, 2009, 12:19AM
Bill Livingston

The Browns are a bad, dull team. They have a control freak for a coach, a general manager with a lower profile than their players' touchdown production, and an owner who shuns the public eye the way most of his peers court it.

It seems to be the perfect storm of bad developments, and fans, in the 11th season of the team's eternal rebuilding process, have raised the hue and cry. If this were a more rural area, owner Randy Lerner might be chased by a mob carrying pitchforks.

The players don't seem to like coach Eric Mangini, who is trying to fine them into submission. The renewed quarterback controversy only makes one man happy, and that is Mangini, who can play his silly mind games again about the starter.

After Art Modell moved the team to Baltimore, he eventually did what he should have done in the first place when the money ran out and sold the team to local ownership. Since the Ravens got the proper funding, they have made all the smart choices the Lerners have not.

It is easy to rip the Lerners for the Browns' plight, particularly since the late Al Lerner assisted Modell in the move. But Al Lerner still escaped much of the vitriol that is directed at his son. The team did spend one day in the playoffs, although Al didn't live to see it. But that hardly was what respected football people thought would occur with the "Dream Team" of Lerner's money and Carmen Policy's smarts.

We learned, alas, that Policy was a very expensive and very empty suit. Al Lerner got a bum steer from the experts on him. It is entirely to Randy Lerner's credit that, when he took over the team, he told Policy to go home to California and stomp some grapes.

He also paid Butch Davis to go away.

Butch lived in a Fantasy League inside his own head. Down frequently seemed to be up after a Davis news conference, bad became good, and in this wonderful world even Gerard Warren could play.

There are not very many people, in the media or in the fan base, who cried "Halt!" when Policy and Davis took over the reins of the franchise, though. That is not a defense of the Lerners, whom I have criticized early and often. It is, however, an inconvenient truth.

There were rumblings that Randy Lerner's first coach, genial Romeo Crennel, might not be young enough to have the requisite fire or drive. But any acorns from the Bill Belichick tree looked good in 2005. The Patriots had just won their third Super Bowl in four years. And Randy Lerner's top confidant was Bob Kraft, the Patriots' owner.

Again, Lerner paid Crennel and his blame-ducking General Manager Phil Savage to go away. The Lerners might make mistakes, but give them credit that they buy their way into the opportunity to make another one fairly quickly. The Indians' ownership, by contrast, has been perpetuating the same error with their management team for years.

Since Lerner hired Mangini about 10 minutes after the coach left the Jets on the end of a shoe, all of this seriously impugns the embattled owner's reputation. An Internet petition currently urges Lerner to sell the team (gopetition.com/online/31062.html).

It would be easier for Randy Lerner if he were more personable, but he has tried to be the anti-Modell, to be an owner who would not meddle. He was rash, and time will tell if he was dumb, in his rush to hire Mangini. But most of the other pigs in most the other pokes he and his father hired came here with good credentials.

A new owner is like the backup quarterback -- great until he has to play, or in this case, own. Cleveland simply has had far more Dolans and Lerners than Gilberts or Jacobses.


cleveland.com

I think we may have the right GM; this coaching group is entirely suspect. Do I see growth and improvement? I know it can be painful. Better than Romeo, yeah. More discipline, fer shure! But winning is all that's important, not the asisinine mind games about starters and competitions and all the othere sidecar crap that has no payoff and no tangible, measureable benefit. Bench a few; lose with rookies if that is the upside. Grab a veteran respectable QB to carry it for us for awhile. A middlin' past prime is better than the crap we put out to start. Is it not obvious that NEITHER QB got the reps needed to be the STARTER?!?!?
It is hard to judge what the "philosophy" is if it doesn't win; it is my considered opinion that EM's bad judgment, choices, decisions, and lousy people handling skills have at least compromised, if not undermined much of the werk in place.
This is harsh and we are bad. We will need to open it up against the Bengals and keep 'em off the field.
I think about 9 FGs should do it, since TD is out of question. DawsonDawg will need IV at halftime to finish game perhaps. Browns, heal thyselves!

I've been thinking about this one and what I'm about to say is not going to be popular but I think it needs to be discussed.


We have been SO focused on recruiting the smart, good character, blue collar types that we have been overlooking the outstanding atheletes.

I'm at the point where all I want to see us bring in are the beast! I want big play making primadonnas and lots of them.

I want a O-line that is full of thick roid ragin bodies. I want wide receivers that actually catch balls and get big bucks for doing it. I want a complete, confident all pro QB. I want a pair of all day RBs.

I want a D that stikes fear into the hearts of opponents. A line the dismembers opponents to get pressure on the QB, line backers that move like tigers to the kill and DBs that can stand alone on an island and shut down the passing game like they are lightning bolts incased in kryptonite!

I want a special teams squad like our 07 squad.

BUT I fear we'll never have that if we are worried about every little thing these KIDS do wrong in their lives. We need to focus on talent. We need to focus on athletecism. We need to focus on heart.

You can coach discipline. You can coach morals and ethics. You can't coach talent... and this is what we lack.

Here's a thought..hire a Team President...Ernie Accorsi anyone??

Ernie Accorsi is the former General Manager of the NFL's New York Giants football team. Accorsi had held the position from January 8, 1998, when he took over for the legendary George Young until his retirement on January 16, 2007. He was succeeded by Jerry Reese.

Accorsi joined the Giants in 1994 and served as an assistant to the general manager until he succeeded Young in 1998.

The Giants made one Super Bowl appearance as under Accorsi in Super Bowl XXXV, which they lost to the Baltimore Ravens, 34-7, won two NFC East division titles (2000, 2005) while making the playoffs four times (2000, 2002, 2005, 2006).

Accorsi has been the general manager of two other NFL franchises, the Baltimore Colts, from 1982 to 1983, and the Cleveland Browns, from 1985 to 1992.




web page

Thanks man..I know who Ernie Accorsi is and what he's accomplished..

The biggest thing I believe is tha the difference between those teams and our team is the hiring process. It really comes down to the coaching and we don't have anyone in place to properly evaluate these people before they are hired.

As much as Art Modell is hated he had a philosiphy that you can't really argue with and it has beem instilled into Baltimore and i'm sure many other teams follow the same rule. And that is the fact that most teams spend tons of money to scout and evaluate players but they never take the same approach with the hiring of a coaching staff and that makes absolutely no sense.

Cleveland I believe falls directly under that category, most noticibly Randy Lerner. He hires Romeo basically at the drop of a hat just because he has New England roots and then he hires Mangini based on probably the same principles when in reality if he does a little homework he would see that Mangini has just as many bad traits as he does good ones.

I mean there is nothing wrong with a little discipline but this guy takes it above and beyond.

What we need is ether A: a trusted brain in the FO with football knowledge that can be Randy's right hand man or B: A new owner.