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I believe the problem is coaching. We are only one season away from a 10 win season. We have many of the same players and even added new talent. I agree with Trent Dilfer when he stated that neither of our QB's can succeed under Mangini's flawed schemes.
Upgrade does mean that things get better.........RIGHT?
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The safest, and most likely to be most correct, answer is: All of the Above. I do not see how we could be where we are if the problem was just one thing, if there was only one thing to be fixed.
We have less talent on Offense, but more on Defense.
The Offense is sputtering in the passing game - where we just happen to have lost most of the talent.
The Defense, contrary to the scores that have been hung on us, has - at times - looked better.
The OLine is the same on the left, but significantly degraded on the right. It was popular to call Shaffer "Necktie", but I would kill to have him back here.... and just like losing JJ killed the passing game, losing Tuck has killed the right side.
The DLine is significantly better than back then, however.
The QB's - oh, hell - this is just a freaking mess.... but I believe that both are capable of succeeding if we can fix the other things; and I believe that neither is the type of QB that will elevate the play of those around them - they need everything else to be solid. When things are good, they get too much of the credit, and when things are bad they get too much of the blame.... and things are really, really bad.
Coaching & Schemes: I'm no guru by any means, but this offense leaves me scratching my head. The D is Ok so far... I'm curious to see if it would hold up if we actually scored some points on O.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Right now I think it is our offensive coordinator and EM.
Joe Thomas #73
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Could be, but then again, might not be.. I don't think much of Dilfer so if it comes from him, its automatically suspect. But that's just me I guess.
If Dilfers right, then why did Pennington do well under EM and for that matter, Favre did pretty well until his arm fell off..
I tend to believe it's talent. Neither QB did anything in my eyes to win that job this summer and I'm leaning towards Mangini being pushed into naming Quinn when he may have wanted DA all along. Just a guess, got nothing to back that up..
They may be only one year removed from a winning season, but last year they totally hurled all over the place..
So I'm of the opinion it's talent.. We'll see I guess
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Daboll! The guys a joke calling plays!
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Aside from predictable offense.
too much roster turnover in the off season. The coaching has gone from worse to worse.
Some teams might only have 4 or 5 starters change for both off, and def.
Butch Davis brought in too many ex Miami Hurricanes, like that right tackle who didn't amount to much. What does that say about ex Jets.
Every coach comes in, and leaves a year or two later and rips alot of talent out with every move they made. Which is bad, but
Changing the coach is ultimately the best move, while keeping the team together in any NFL failure. But Keeping the coach for a long time can build stability.
If you keep the wrong coach your only going to get worse.
The last time the Browns won a playoff game, Bill Bellichik was the HC and Nick Saban was the def, coordinator. wouldn't you long for those days.
a lack of qualified coordinators, and head coach, well in 2003 I coined the phrase to remember, (nothing over trumps bad coaching) period.
Or was that the day Lewis ran for 295. doesn't matter.
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I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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I can't imagine calling for the team to be sold, because if it is, it is probably not going to remain in Cleveland. So I in no way support that.
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Offensive coordinators are a popular target. Personally, I think playcalling is very overrated. Remember how popular Chud was in '07? Then how unpopular he was last year? Do you think his playcalling really changed? No, the difference was the execution. If the players are worth a crap, it will work. Playcalling is one of the most overrated things out there.
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Quote:
I can't imagine calling for the team to be sold, because if it is, it is probably not going to remain in Cleveland. So I in no way support that.
Won't happen again....Although Cleveland was ranked #2 poorest city in the U.S.....congrats
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Quote:
Offensive coordinators are a popular target. Personally, I think playcalling is very overrated. Remember how popular Chud was in '07? Then how unpopular he was last year? Do you think his playcalling really changed? No, the difference was the execution. If the players are worth a crap, it will work. Playcalling is one of the most overrated things out there.
Poor execution has a lot to do with poor coaching. Mix poor coaching with poor play calling and you get what we've had the last three games! Putting in DA will have no effect because of the overall bad coaching in this team.
Upgrade does mean that things get better.........RIGHT?
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Poor execution has a lot to do with crappy players.
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Quote:
Offensive coordinators are a popular target. Personally, I think playcalling is very overrated. Remember how popular Chud was in '07? Then how unpopular he was last year? Do you think his playcalling really changed? No, the difference was the execution. If the players are worth a crap, it will work. Playcalling is one of the most overrated things out there.
You know what Deep? I completely agree with you. Whenever the offense does not work, we blame the OC. When the defense doesn't work, we blame the DC. That is the nature of the beast.
Bottom line to me is that the payers are not executing. It doesn't matter what play you call when the QB does not even look downfield. There might be 3 receivers running a perfectly setup deep route, but if the gun shy QB only looks at the bailout 3 yard route, whose fault is that?
Daboll is a rookie, and he is going to have some growing pains. The bottom line is that if the players execute properly, every play called is the right play at the right time.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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Namely the qb play. If Quinn would have completed just a few passes when he had time to throw (which he definitely had), we would have moved the chains a few times and maybe even pulled a win out of one of the first two games. Things wouldn't look nearly as grim as they do now.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
If the players are worth a crap, it will work. Playcalling is one of the most overrated things out there.
I was scrolling down this thread, with the idea that I would post the same thing as you did.
Aside from the two Wildcat plays inside the 5 in Game 1, I can't really sit here and say Daboll has been terrible. If our players were producing, it would not be an issue.
People say he's been bad, but never specify.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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j/c in,...Players definitely have to execute and ours may not be talented enough, but when you factor in the personality of the coaches and their limited talents -- for example Mangini is definitely one of those types who does not like people at all -- then you have a combination of problems.
I have always felt that talent, from team to team, year to year, just cannot be that much different, considering the whittling process (mostly Division 1 college players), sieves, and filters that players have to go through just to get to the NFL,...I mean, how many players play D-1 ball every year,...117 schools X 24 starters (11/11/2 kickers, and assume those are all draftable seniors),...that's 2808. Now, how many get drafted ? 32 X 7 rounds, that's 224 - so you already have the process of simple natural selection alone funnelling only the very best players into the league.
And that theory only counts a draft that picks D-1 players, so it is highly invalid to start with,...to continue, if the NFL is really only made up of the best 1696 (32 teams X 53 rostered) players -- whatever the source -- how can the talent level be that different ???
I believe, overwhelmingly, that coaches and their abilities to evaluate, train, motivate, scheme, lead, plan, develop, trust, and like, the men whose talents they are entrusted with, is the single biggest factor in the success of an NFL team.
Just my theory, my opinion. I am about leadership; it delivers.
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Players have no trust in this staff, EM is alienating this team from him. We have serious issues on the right side of the OL thanks to EM.
We have no offensive weapons outside of BE, and EM's handling of the QBs has been nothing short of stupid.
Its combo of alot of things, but alot of it trickles down to decisions made in the offseason, and we are reaping the results.
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It takes players making plays as well, oorahjoice.
A dominant QB - or a back, or a linebacker - goes a long way. You need the other pieces, but in that pool of players you spoke of, the big fish eats more often than not.
Last edited by lampdogg; 09/30/09 10:45 PM.
gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
Could be, but then again, might not be.. I don't think much of Dilfer so if it comes from him, its automatically suspect. But that's just me I guess.
If Dilfers right, then why did Pennington do well under EM and for that matter, Favre did pretty well until his arm fell off..
I tend to believe it's talent. Neither QB did anything in my eyes to win that job this summer and I'm leaning towards Mangini being pushed into naming Quinn when he may have wanted DA all along. Just a guess, got nothing to back that up..
They may be only one year removed from a winning season, but last year they totally hurled all over the place..
So I'm of the opinion it's talent.. We'll see I guess
You didnt hear Dilfers whole reasoning behind his statements. He was saying how Mangini handled the situation and the contionuity the QB needs with his team. It was also stated how Manning learned alot in his 3-13 season in the 4th quarter of games that taught him to be an NFL QB.
I know what your saying because Dilfer has a bone to pick with this organization and has made some bonehead statements in the past like, "Clevelands organization is ran by what the fans want" regarding him getting benched in favor of Frye and the local boy Quinn starting. Heck, even Edwards was calling for Frye that year.
Dilfer also said in regards to this situation that Manning or Brady couldnt win in this offense because it lacks any creativity. He does have a bone to pick but he does know more than any fan on the situation. Im going with coaches. Brady Quinn threw for over 300 yards last year against Denver and now looks lost. I put that on the coaches and how they handled the situation. Also, they brought the talent in and let some go. So the talent goes on him in my opinion. Do yoy think Kokinis is the reason all these ex Jets are here?
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Quote:
Offensive coordinators are a popular target. Personally, I think playcalling is very overrated. Remember how popular Chud was in '07? Then how unpopular he was last year? Do you think his playcalling really changed? No, the difference was the execution. If the players are worth a crap, it will work. Playcalling is one of the most overrated things out there.
ha, you sound like a Marty fan (which is a good thing, btw.)
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Quote:
Offensive coordinators are a popular target. Personally, I think playcalling is very overrated. Remember how popular Chud was in '07? Then how unpopular he was last year? Do you think his playcalling really changed? No, the difference was the execution. If the players are worth a crap, it will work. Playcalling is one of the most overrated things out there.
You say playcalling is overrated but some QBs wouldnt want to do it. Phillip Rivers said he wouldnt want to have to call plays because its too hard to come up with a gameplan for a whole game. If an NFL QB of that caliber is saying that about playcalling, I think it is really that importatnt.
I dont see what the OC is doing all the time from watching the game on TV, but I noticed Daboll spending alot more time with DA on the sidelines after a failed drive trying to make things work than he did with Quinn. I might have noticed that because I heard Daboll wanted DA more than Quinn.
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The QB play has been so terrible it gives the perception that there are many many more problems right now.Sure, we have deficiencies in areas other than QB, but even the "good" teams have their weak areas and can still find a way to win. Cribbs as the #2 WR is another big problem IMO, but BQ has just sucked the life out of this football team.
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***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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It's a mix of everything..plus new startup again..with inexperienced people on the staff..thats what U get with a new startup..which is why I really didn't want it..but it was still bad with what was here.. 
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Quote:
The bottom line is that if the players execute properly, every play called is the right play at the right time.
I believe that is a very "middle school" way of looking at things... yea it might be true at a very junior level but not in the NFL. NFL defenses, even bad NFL defenses, are talented enough that if you don't mix it up, if you don't call plays in a sequence that keeps defenses on their heels, if you can't call plays based on a proper anticipation of the defense being run, if the plays are not designed well..... then they will stop you. I don't care if everybody on the offense executes perfectly.... The more talented your offense, the more you can overcome those, our offense has not proven to be extremely talented.
At best play calling and execution work hand in hand.. if you call and execute good plays to start a game, you can get defenses on their heels and then more things will work... that's why so many coaches script and practice the first 20-25 plays.. because they understand the value of getting the defense guessing from the beginning... if you start out like we have, with absolutely not creativity AND no execution, then the defense settles in and it's going to be a long day.
yebat' Putin
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This is not the type of Offence Quinn can succeed in, Brady is a dink, dunk type passer and can sometimes hit a long ball, but not 4-5 times a game....Ohio state proved that in the bowl game, Quinn cannot and will not succeed without a running game, and why Mangini hasnt broguht another body in to help run the bal is beyond me, Lewis cant do it anymore, Harrison can only do so much and where is our training camp hero, our diamond in the ruff, Davis? we need to run the ball first for Brady to succeed.
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I've read so many of these threads, and everyone throws out all these ideas..Bad coaching, lack of talent, qb sucks, coach sucks, hate in the locker room, etc.. I have watched this team and reviewed everything, done some research, asked some questions and have come up with the one clear overwhelming thing that is causing all the teams problems. The team switched from regular Gatorade to G2 on the sidelines. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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That's so simple! How could we possibly all have missed it?
But seriously, folks, when you see a team in this serious a level of disarray it can be hard to put a finger on a single problem, and I don't think there is just one. More than anything else, we have resembled the Frye game of 07 where the O just could not move the ball. Yep, there are differences, right side OL not as good, JL older, K2 gone, but also better D, JT on the left, reasonbly similar.
The overall level of Putzitude from the QB set the tone for the whole O, and ultimately the whole team. DA may not be the answer, but at least he offers some hope of scoring. With him in we know it ain't over when we get down by more than a field goal.
We still need a RT, RB, CB, Somebody smart enough to quit wasting Cribbs at WR, and a pass-rushing monster OLB.
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Quote:
I believe the problem is coaching. We are only one season away from a 10 win season. We have many of the same players and even added new talent. I agree with Trent Dilfer when he stated that neither of our QB's can succeed under Mangini's flawed schemes.
What is the EXACT problem with the coaching? Can you (or anyone else that places blame at the feet of the HC or OC) pinpoint for us how this is true?
The right side of the OL is crap.
We have no viable RB, nor an OL to effectively block for one.
We have one option at WR.
How exactly are they going to move the ball and how is switching QBs going to suddenly make these very real weaknesses stronger????
How?
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The answer:
All of the above because they are all inter-related.
We are where we are because of the choices we have made as a organization.
The only way out of this mess is to make better choices.
It is easy to criticize Lerner because he is the top of the food chain. But when you look at the history of how he got where he is and what has taken place with the team since 1999, to be fair, it is all understandable.
Success and failure in the NFL is all about management of the cap and player evaluation. Those decisions are made from the desk of the head coach and the GM.
The owner makes those hires.
What needs to happen to wipe the stink off and get better?
Either a belief in Mangini and Kokinis or a change in both. They are a package of choice.
If after 8 games this team is still reeling then a change needs to be considered. Reeling in this case is not just wins but how you may lose.
A change to be considered:
Turn this whole organization over to football minds. If Randy has the guts to look into the mirror and admit another mistake and take corrective action, my choice is as follows:
Ask Mike Holmgren to take over as President and GM and have Jon Gruden as head coach.
Two Super Bowl winners who have worked together before. Then let them put this back together.
Give them five years and sleep with no nightmares.
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Quote:
What needs to happen to wipe the stink off and get better?
Either a belief in Mangini and Kokinis or a change in both. They are a package of choice.
If after 8 games this team is still reeling then a change needs to be considered.
8 games into a rebuilding year start over.
Wash.
Rinse.
Repeat.
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What is the EXACT problem with the coaching? Can you (or anyone else that places blame at the feet of the HC or OC) pinpoint for us how this is true?
The right side of the OL is crap.
We have no viable RB, nor an OL to effectively block for one.
We have one option at WR.
Lets look it another way..who assembled this group we have now?
While I'd say Kokinis..can't..he was figurehead...KoMan..did..so here's what i think is effecting production..Big play TE was traded away..(did not disagree with the trade)..JJ released..Rucker-supposedly KII's replacement was released.... that hurt because we had no one to replace either..oh wait..Royal brought in..blocker but not a pass catching threat..Furry brought in..does he play much?
Cribbs starting at WR....when did he win this job??
Draft ..Robo/Mass..o.k..Robo is in Ginius's doghouse..doesn't even suit up..a waste even if I didn't like the pick..ridiculous..
Mass..looked good in preseason..a rookie, but a natural WR...yet not playing..another waste..
Right side of Oline...Hadnot out..Tucker gone..Womack out..
Ya might as well say St.Turnstile is out because there's nothing over there..
The loss of Tucker hurt more but the team should have been bettter prepared for it..no upgrade at OT when Turnstile # 2 was shown the door...
So..who brought in these people?
Mangini..now next year (if he's here) he better fix these holes..he better find out what he's got in these rookies he drafted..
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Can't disagree with any of that....but of course hindsight is always 20/20. Any one of us can easily draft better than a HC/GM, at least after the draft we can....  I don't understand not fielding Mass and Robo, knowing that Cribbs can't play the position...
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I'm not saying who should have been drafted..I'm just saying the decisions made toward the start of the season are baffling..how can Mangini justify starting a player who's never ever played WR over two natural wideouts even if they are rookies?
In that case cribbs is a rookie WR ..AND MORE raw than they are..
See I just can't go along with this thought of well they don't know the roster..you knew enough to trade/release people..you then know enough how to replace them ..
U know you have a aging RB who get's dinged up..get another viable 15 carry back..
Any one of us can easily draft better than a HC/GM, at least after the draft we can. I wish I'd kept every mock I made since 2000..I called my shots well before the draft
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Bringing your unique Florida perspective to the issue, eh?
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Quote:
I'm not saying who should have been drafted..I'm just saying the decisions made toward the start of the season are baffling..how can Mangini justify starting a player who's never ever played WR over two natural wideouts even if they are rookies?:
Maybe those rookies stink. Mangini ought to know he drafted them. They say it takes a big man to admit his mistakes. That's a good thing. Right? 
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No..I don't buy they stink...not all 8 of them..nope..
I don't believe Robo stinks either..I do know one equation is that he dropped 3 passes in a practice..and got in Gini's doghouse..dude is power-playing them.
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Drafting...we've had what 10 drafts by how many different regimes with how many different visions?
No surprise we are still mired in our own ineptness!
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Quote:
Drafting...we've had what 10 drafts by how many different regimes with how many different visions?
No surprise we are still mired in our own ineptness!
Remember that myopic is a vision too.
#GMSTRONG
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is there an (all of thee above) option to this question?
Ruining QB's since 1999.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What is the real problem? Lack of
personnel, the QB's or the
coaching?
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